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Toyota Prius

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Comments

  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > IMMHO the people of the "class" to buy hybrids are more interested in fuel economy rather than 0-60 times.

    Currently, Highlander is available in 2 configurations. One emphasizes power. The other emphasizes economy.

    With the hybrid Highlander, the first will emphasize power. The second will emphasize economy.

    The economy version of the traditional Highlander shares both the same frame and the same engine as the Camry. So it makes very, very, very good business sense for the hybrid Highlander to do the very same thing.

    This has already been pointed out several times before... by the way.

    JOHN
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I think you can be fairly certain that the initial HL hybrid will be a virtual clone of the RX400h.

    My next purchase is very likely to be an RX330 and then wait in hopes of an I4 HL hybrid and then maybe see that one cloned into the RX.

    If I should live so long....
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I think you can be fairly certain

    Huh? We already know that the Highlander-Hybrid will be the power version. The specs were released back in Decemeber. Engine size is a dead giveaway.

    Check the Highlander-Hybrid topic for details.

    JOHN
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Actually it is call Economics 101 and is based on supply and demand. If the Prius were really as profitable as you imply , then Totoata would have dropped some of thier Corolla and Camry production lines and begun producing a large number now instead of waiting until 2005 to expand production. The current Prius is still not accepted by all because its low performance and handling. The goal of the new hybrids is to provide at equvalent or better performance and handling of the ICE models and also improve mileage. I know you are getting 54 mpg now, but most drivers are not getting that good of milage, more like 40 mpg. And yes , these are California and Florida driviers that did not have the Minosota winter -10 mpg syndrone.

    The problem with the prius and why Toyota is holding back increasing production now, is that the car buying consumer will preceive Prius competition very shortly in the the Frode Escape 38 mpg, Honda Accord Hybrid 37 mpg, Toyota Highlander Hybrid, 30-35 mpg, Lexus RX400h Hybrid 36/31 mpg. All of which will have perfromance and handling factored in the equation. Going back to Economics 101 of supply and demand, there is pretty strong felling that the Prius demand will shift to the hybrid alternatives that offer perfromance and handling. Most people want better mileage, especially as the fas price has risen to over $2.00 per gallon ( It is going to come down in the near term) but not enough to sacrifice performance. When the Prius is Toyota's slowest perfromer, many people don't want to make that sacrifice especaiilly with the FUD of Battery replacement costs and the fact that very few, except the slow driving high mileage geeks, are getting anywhere close to the 60/51 EPA estimate.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    >IMMHO the people of the "class" to buy hybrids
    >are more interested in fuel economy rather than
    >0-60 times. No one of this classs sees the need
    >for V8 performance in an RX400h SUV.

    I think you are completly wrong, read the whole gist of the "Are Hybrids up to the Chore" topic.

    Every one is complaining that they want the handling and performance of the car they are trading in.

    If mileage were the only criteria then the 50-60 mile per gallon, no frills econo-boxes of the 70-80s would still be around.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    For another opinion on this subject, please check out the May issue of Consumer Reports, which tested the Prius against four other vehicles in its class. CR found that the Prius offers "competitive" performance and handling to those other (ICE) cars while achieving an average of 44 mpg in their tests (which BTW were conducted during the winter in New York State).

    Also, it is untrue that Toyota is "holding back increasing production now" on the Prius. In fact, the situation is exactly the opposite. Toyota is opening a second production line in Japan and is considering opening a production line in the U.S. That does not sound like "holding back" to me.

    It is also untrue that the Prius is Toyota's slowest (quickest?) performer, based on tests from car mags. But since this is not a comparison board, that discussion is off-topic here.
  • rpgolferrpgolfer Member Posts: 157
    Hi gang,
       I sold my '84 Corvette to purchase a higher mpg vehicle that will accomodate my travel needs and playing golf. If you want performance, you should have bought my Corvette. I didn't buy the Prius for speed, I bought it for mpg and technology. I don't need to go from 0-60 in under 7 secs, I've been there. The Corvette was a true performance/handling car and the Prius is just fine for my type of driving which is conservative and not rushed. I cruise along at 65 mph and watch the mpg climb. I retired at age 52 after 30 yrs in the oil business. Young enough to have fun but old enough to know what I'm after. I'm running 44/42 psi in my factory tires and the ride is just fine. For those who seek performance by all means go for it. It's mpg I'm after with gas prices here in Calif at $2.38/gal and the Prius is perfect for my needs.
  • luvbeingreenluvbeingreen Member Posts: 5
    I would tell them to put you on the list at the point where your credit card was charged for deposit. They obviously have records and should adjust the list accordingly. If it were me and you are anxious to get the car as soon as it is possible, then push this issue with them. Regarding not paying a penny over MSRP, good luck. Even my dealer is charging some obscure fee (that apparently must be charged for all models as it's written into their generic sales agreement paperwork. IF I am able to get them to drop it I'll let you know, but I'm not holding my breath. They know that they have the buyer by the xxxx (insert whatever comes to mind :>) ... stopeed by the dealership over the weekend and it's there...although the "green" is really much more like a gray with flecks of green throughout the paint. I really despise paying sticker price...I have never paid more than invoice for any vehicle that I've ever purchased, so I'm hoping I won't end up upside-down on this purchase.
    Does anyone know if they need undercoating in this neck of the woods here in New England? Also, does anyone know if the windows can be tinted as I won't have the navigation system.

    I live in upstate NY near VT and the dealer that I went to in Feb and gave them my $500 deposit which they also immediately charged to my cc, called me last week and said that I was next on the list and that they had a "green" #6 with the preferred accessory package (yet an additional package I'd have been happy to have passed on if it were at all possible...for just under $300-for car mats, cargo net and a first aid kit...I could have went to any dept or auto store and got the same for probably not even a $100...what a racket, but what can I do except for pass on it and then who knows how long I'll be waiting for another one.)

    Thanks!
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "Everyone is complaining that they want the handling and performance of the car they are trading in....."

    Yes, YES!

    Not less, but also not more at the sacrifice of fuel economy.

    Put the batteries, the fuel tank, and the AWD's extra 30HP electric motor in the back with the I4 hydrid in the front and you'll have a perfectly balanced RX310h.
  • quasar4quasar4 Member Posts: 110
    Actually it is call Economics 101 and is based on supply and demand. If the Prius were really as profitable as you imply , then Totoata would have dropped some of thier Corolla and Camry production lines and begun producing a large number now instead of waiting until 2005 to expand production.

    Why would Toyota drop production of some of the world's most popular cars?? Does the implication that the Prius earns a profit mean that the Camry and the Corolla cannot??

    The current Prius is still not accepted by all because its low performance and handling.

    Uhm, what car is accepted by all? Let's face it --any car that can get people to wait in line to plunk down MSRP and above must be doing something acceptable in the eyes of the consumer. Oh, and there must be a lot of low performance SUVs, BMWs, and Porsches out there because my "low performance" Prius has no trouble kissing their bumpers.

    Going back to Economics 101 of supply and demand, there is pretty strong felling that the Prius demand will shift to the hybrid alternatives that offer perfromance and handling.

    You mean just like the popularity of the Honda Civic went down the crapper when more powerful better handling ICE models came out? <insert muffled sounds of laughter here>

    ...very few, except the slow driving high mileage geeks, are getting anywhere close to the 60/51 EPA estimate.

    If saving the environment and reducing our dependency on oil makes a person a geek, then America needs more geeks!!

    P.S. This "geek" averaged 53.7 mpg on his last tank of gas...and didn't have to drive slow to do it --just wisely :)
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Not everyone has easy access to Consumer Reports

    I thought that Prius was in a class of its own. What other 4 cars did Consumer Reports put in the same class as the Prius? And how many could the Prius out accelerate?? What does "competative performance mean, that performance is not important?

    Its only a matter of semantics, about Prius being the slowest Toyota. If not the slowest, maybe some 4 cylinder auto is slower, Wait the 4 cyl auto Corolla is faster, the 4 cyl auto Echo is faster, even the heavier 4 cylinder auto Camry is faster. What car does Toyota offer that is slower than the Prius? A heavy 4 cylinder truck or SUV ??

    LOL

    MidCow
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Most people who buy the Prius are quite happy with the performance. It has comparable performance to a 4 cylinder Camry. It even has decent mid range for going around those behemoth SUVs on the windy parkways I drive on. This is coming from a person that used to drive a car that went from 0-60 in 6.9 seconds. I don't miss it and don't need it. If you want a performance car, don't buy a hybrid. I have no idea why you even post here, as you contribute NOTHING to the topic, other than scepticism.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    A newspaper reporter is interested in hearing from hybrid drivers in New England. If you are willing to share your story, please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information no later than Thursday, June 10, 2004.
    Thanks,
    Jeannine Fallon
    PR Director
    Edmunds.com
  • hotfoot2hotfoot2 Member Posts: 3
    I am amazed at the people decrying the performance of the Prius: Just exactly how much performance does it need? It moves out fast at a stoplight; it merges onto a freeway with room and power to spare; it gets 'only', Oh My God, 48 mph on highway trips; it pumps out one sixth the pollutants; and, yes, it costs a little more, but would you rather give it to the oil companies, or have it invested into a car that you own? The people that are having hystrionics over performance are the same people that cheer when they see another car go through another fruit cart at the movies. Grow up and be responsible to yourself and to the planet; and enjoy a nice little car that will do 99% of what you need a car to do 99% of the time.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Well said. Some of the behavior is also attributable to Prius Envy. It's actually been documented by the AMA as a new disease. There is a cure, but it almost takes a year. :)
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Okay, then let's make the Prius the new performance standard and lower all other cars, trucks and SUVs to that standard. Then everyone would get better mileage.

    I am not sure I understand some of your technical terms:

    What does "moves out fast at a stoplight" mean?
    What does "merges onto a freeway with room and power to spare" mean?

    I am completely unclear on your 99% statement "...enjoy a nice little car that will do 99% of what you need to do 99% of the time"
    How in the world di you come up with that statement? Did you survey all automobile owners over all of the world to determine their "needs' and how much of the time it met those needs and how much of the time it didn't. WoW it sounds like everyboby in the world should get a Prius!

    Do you have any objective facts to support your statements?
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Actually the following are some 0-60 times from Consumer Guide.

    Prius = 10.5
    Corolla 4 cyl auto = 9.7
    Camry 4 cyl auto = 9.2

    The Prius is not comparable to their own Toyota running mates with autos and the gap widens even further when a manual is used.

    Why do I post here, because I am interested in economy without having to sacrifice performance and handling. I am not interested in changing my driving habits to accommodate a car's limitations.

    And many people on the hybrid forums seem to be so in love with their cars they can not provide objectivity. I provide that objectivity and counterpoint view.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Whoopty doooooo...... The Camry beats the Prius by a fraction of a second. What does that mean and who cares? If the Prius does not meet your criteria then post on a board where others share your passion. Most people here (though most are not as vocal), read your posts with disdain and move on. READ CAREFULLY... Most Prius owners LOVE their cars and DO NOT CARE ABOUT 0-60 times. Come back in five years and maybe the Prius will do 0-60 in 8 seconds. In the meantime, if you have NOTHING meaningful to add to the forum, you're wasting our time.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    Here are my acceleration(g) calculations from the another thread.

    Accord LX 4 cylinder 5-speed automatic

    1st Gear - 0.47 g
    2nd Gear - 0.27 g
    3rd Gear - 0.18 g
    4th Gear - 0.13 g
    5th Gear - 0.10 g

    Comment: 5-Speed offers more efficient power delivery to the wheels.

    Camry 2.4 L 4-speed automatic

    1st Gear - 0.42 g
    2nd Gear - 0.24 g
    3rd Gear - 0.15 g
    4th Gear - 0.11 g

    Comment: Offers higher acceleration (g) through out all the gear than Corolla and Echo.

    2004 Corolla 4-speed automatic

    1st Gear - 0.40 g
    2nd Gear - 0.22 g
    3rd Gear - 0.14 g
    4th Gear - 0.10 g

    Comment: Satisfactory performance for most drivers.

    2004 Echo 4-speed automatic

    1st Gear - 0.40 g
    2nd Gear - 0.22 g
    3rd Gear - 0.14 g
    4th Gear - 0.10 g

    Comment: The same atisfactory performance for most drivers as Corolla.

    2004 Prius HSD Planetary E-CVT

    0 mph - 0.39g
    20 mph - 0.40g
    40 mph - 0.21g
    60 mph - 0.14g
    80 mph - 0.10g

    As you can see, Prius drives like most other traditional 4 cylinder cars. And here is the part where Prius is faster than 4 cylinder auto Camry.

    Camry 30-50mph: 6 sec
    Prius 30-50mph: 5.2 sec

    image.

    During sequential incremental shifting tests (0-60), Camry will win since it's 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear thrust(g) is higher Prius from 0-60mph. But when comes to 30-50mph test, Camry will need to downshift to deliver maximum thrust(g) and then gradually upshift as the speed increases. Prius wins in 30-50mph test because the thrust(g) from 50kw motor comes at the speed of electricity without downshift delay.

    Dennis
  • mfullmermfullmer Member Posts: 773
    Any vehicle purchaser chooses a car based on several criteria. What is important to them in many areas makes the decision.

    Why is it that people don't understand (or can't handle that people just don't see it the way they do) that there are many people who want an efficient and environmentally responsible car? This "Prius can't compete..." is absolute rubbish!

    Hello!!!! Look at how well the Volkswagen Beetle sold? People didn't buy it for it's speed or agility, they bought it to make a statement and had fun doing it!

    VW Beetle Original - 44 HP (1978). This, at the time, was even a farther gap because of the muscle cars that people "loved" and their 400 and 500 hp engines!

    Of course VW only sold 200,000+ per year!

    Simply said, many people prefer fast cars. Some prefer not-so-fast cars.

    Why demonize the Prius?
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...it's pretty obvious that one of our regular posters here [we all know his identity] believes it his personal mission to make sure that no positive claim or review of the new Prius goes unchallenged. His main problem seems to be the "irrational" enthusiasm of the marketplace for this car. Why it is more "rational" to be excited by 6000 lbs of truck, or even smaller cars with modestly better performance, or one of the gazillion other alternatives, is an open question. As pointed out repeatedly above, it is OK for the Prius not to be your personal cup of tea. It's just boring, though, to have this same set of criticisms repeated over and over. We get it, guy - you think this car doesn't make sense. Most of the rest of us do. Vive la difference...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    CR tested a Prius against a Malibu, Galant, Verona, and Stratus. All midsized sedans. The Verona had a V6, the others 4 cylinders. I am on the road and don't have that CR issue with me, but as I recall the Prius beat one of the cars 0-60 and was within a couple of tenths on the others--hence the "competitive" statement from CR. Also, the Prius came out on top in that comparo and was highlighted by CR as being the preferred option in the entire class (which includes Accord, Camry, Passat, Mazda6, and Altima) if someone is interested in good fuel economy. (The fuel economy of the Prius was almost double the average fuel economy of the other cars in the test group.)

    As far as the slowest (and I assume here you mean least quick) Toyota, MT tested the Prius, Scion xA and xB at the same time and same conditions and found the Prius quicker than both of them 0-60. Other numbers posted on Edmunds.com discussions about hybrids vs. ICE cars have noted numbers for automatic Camrys and Corollas at 9.8 seconds, which is what MT has measured for the Prius. Refer also to CR's comparo on the Prius and four other cars in its size/price class. The long-term testers at Edmunds.com haven't mentioned any problems about performance--but did mention chirping the tires on takeoff. Bottom line is, the Prius' performance is in the same ballpark as comparable ICE cars. If you want to pick at a couple tenths of a second, go ahead, but the importance of that in the real world is nil.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Well it is a coincidence that Edmunds obtained 42.8 mpg on their long term test Prius and the only person I know that owns a 2004 Prius and keeps records of mpg has avg. of 42 mpg.
    42 mpg is very good and about what I expected.
    About the same mpg you would expect on an automatic VW TDI and much lower emissions.
    Will be interesting to see the mpg on the new Highlander Hybrid.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Are you attempting to imply an average?

    My 53.7 MPG last month wasn't as high my friend Bill, who got 56 MPG, or my friend Kou who got about 52 MPG (all calculated values, which are lower than displayed). That's 3 owners in the same area getting much, much higher with a 2004 than the test value. And my friends here, Mary & Charlie with classics, are both getting just under 50 MPG.

    That quick sampling clearly shows that actual owners achieve can much higher values the testing revealed. So you can't claim it it won't happen for some.

    JOHN
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    Since when do those window MPG stickers mean so much? This is the first discussion I've seen where people are making a big thing about it. It's rare that anyone gets those numbers no matter WHAT kind of car they're driving!

    Like any car, mileage will vary depending on how and where you drive and the weather conditions. I don't think most people are buying the Prius for its 0-60 times or how it handles on twisting mountain roads at 60 MPH!!!! Geez!

    Enjoy the car for what it is. At least Toyota is TRYING to help us fight these ridiculous gas prices unlike Detroit! The Prius would most likely be my next choice with these obscene gas prices if I didn't have to wait 8 months to get a model with the equipment that Toyota thinks I should have.

    Enjoy your car!

    fastdriver
  • klemmercklemmerc Member Posts: 3
    After waiting more than 7 months for my Prius, all the dealer can offer me are cars with Ivory/Brown interiors. Since I live in New England with its winter snow, slush, salt & sand interior grunge resistance is a factor to consider. Our 2000 Camry with gray interior shows dirt easily. What is the collective experience with Ivory vs. Gray in the Prius?
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Long-Term Test: 2004 Toyota Prius

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/toyota/prius/100326481/roadtestar- ticle.html?articleId=101393&editorialpage=page001
  • bamacarbamacar Member Posts: 749
    "It's rare that anyone gets those numbers no matter WHAT kind of car they're driving!" Maybe with the Prius, but not with many other cars. I am an average to agressive driver and with my 2003 Accord 4-cylinder (EPA 34/26), I have never had a single tank below 26 in over 26,000 miles. I average in mixed driving 30 mpg and usually get 33-36 on the Highway averaging about 75 mph. I have never had a car that could not better the lower EPA number. Similarly, if I had a Prius and hoped to get similar numbers according to the EPA, I should never see a tank below 51 and average 58-65 around town. Is that what is happening? No.

    Once again the Prius gets great mileage just ignore the EPA estimates unlike most of the other cars on the road.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    People should read what is printed on the window-sticker, and not just assume the big numbers are a promise... because it isn't! This is that text from a 2004 Prius:

    Actual Mileage will vary with options, driving conditions, driving habits and vehicle's condition. Results reported to EPA indicate that the majority of vehicles with these estimates will achieve between 51 and 69 mpg in the city and between 43 and 59 on the highway.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Not everyone is so fortunate. From Edmunds.com's long-term test wrapup report on the '03 Accord EX 4-cylinder automatic (24/34 EPA rating):

    Best Fuel Economy: 30.0 mpg
    Worst Fuel Economy: 14.5 mpg
    Average Fuel Economy: 24.1 mpg

    I don't recall seeing any Edmunds.com long-term tester or a CR tester for that matter that met its EPA numbers. The best I've seen recently (compared to the EPA numbers) was the 26 mpg overall that the Malibu V6 got in CR's tests, which is very good for a V6 sedan and actually topped the test mpg for the Malibu 4 cylinder. Most midsized cars get in the low 20s for overall mpg in CR's tests. As noted earlier, the Prius got double that number.
  • fastdriverfastdriver Member Posts: 2,273
    I'm sure that if you drive 25 MPH in town and 55 MPH on the highway, you could EASILY achieve the sticker mileage.

    So what! Who drives 55 anymore on the highway? You'll get killed at that speed. Enjoy the car.You're lucky that you're getting 50 MPG and not 10.

    fastdriver
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    With no headwind.....

    and maybe a little help from behind.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I'm stating that Edmunds, CR, local Prius owner, and others with 04 Prius all are between 40 and 45 mpg average with 42 mpg the most common.
    It is simply difficult to believe your data when the examples you are providing are 50 mpg and higher. Perhaps you have the Tornado fuel saver installed in your Prius. http://www.wcpo.com/external/dwym/c3b519.html (Disclaimer - I certainly do not believe the Tornado will actually increase mpg)
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    I'm confused, are you saying that people don't get better than 43 MPG in the Prius II?

    I can only speak for myself, but in the Month of May I had three tanks of about 500 miles each.

    I live in downtown Washington DC, and commute about 60 miles round trip every day. About 1/3 of it is "Real" City driving and 2/3 is "Highway" on what passes for Highways in the 4th most congested Urban Area in the country.

    I also run errands, and take an occasional trip out of town. This is the only car I have, so it's not just a commuter. On each of the last two tanks I took a trip up to WV which was about 150 miles round trip, and included true Highway Miles at 65 MPH on Cruise Control, and Rural Roads up there of all sorts.

    My last two tanks were 60 and 61 MPG (actually, a few tenths over for each, but who's counting). The previous one I was the victim of a "Bad Fill" where the pump never shut off and apparently sucked back at least a gallon of gas before I figured out it was putting in too much, hehe. The filler neck was full to the brim and the pump was still running happily. Argh!!!.

    Even with the bad fill, my three tank average for may, about 1480 miles traveled in mixed use driving, was 55+ MPG.

    I really don't know what other people are getting, but I'm pretty happy with my mileage.
  • kerenskykerensky Member Posts: 12
    I've heard some comments on other Prius forums about the DVD navigation system not being very accurate, especially compared to non-intergraded standalone Magellan and other systems. It's been said that Toyota will release a fix for the problem, but I was wondering if anyone living in the Northern VA area could tell me how accurate they've found the Prius nav system to be? I appreciate any help.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Don't be confused. I'm stating that CR, Edmunds and the Prius owner I know obtain about 42 mpg. 42 mpg is great mpg and nothing to be ashamed of. I'm stating that I'm still waiting for a major publication to obtain average above 45 mpg, or even someone local who obtains above 45 mpg average.
    Obviously there are always exceptions to the norm. I'm stating that my perception is that the norm is 40-45 mpg average and the above 50's and the below 40's mpg are the exceptions.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I was averaging 42 until I took John's advice. Now I am approaching 50 MPG. Last week I had a few days where I averaged over 62 but that was only 30 miles of driving. Overall I am pleased. I also can say for sure that I get DOUBLE the mileage of folks driving the Ford Focus. As you know we have a shop steward from Ford posting the wonderful attributes of the Focus as opposed to the Prius. Total stupidity. Oh well.
  • tempusvntempusvn Member Posts: 119
    Hmm, well, I gather I can't link to other sites from Edmunds, but there are a variety of places where people post their mileage as they go along.

    One place keeps a thread for each month. Some people post each tank, and some people post monthly totals.

    I cut/pasted the Tank Mileages and Lifetime Mileages from the entire month of May for a reference to what people are actually getting.

    Each entry is a post there. Some people may be represented by multiple posts as they entered each tank.

    Some folks posted in diff formats so individual tanks or lifetimes weren't available but I included everything for completeness (Well, except the International Posts - Easier to deal all with MPG, and since they don't have the bladder, who knows how the mileage may differ).

    May Mileage is better for just about everyone, because of the warming, of course.

    --------------

    Tank Mileage: 57.7
    Avg Overall Mileage: 49.5

    Tank Mileage: 41.4
    Avg Overall Mileage: 38.6

    Tank Mileage: 63.3
    Avg Overall Mileage: 58.75

    Tank Mileage: 46.2
    Avg Overall Mileage: 46.8

    Tank Mileage 50.2
    Avg Overall Mileage: 50.4

    Tank Mileage 57.5
    Avg Overall Mileage 48.0

    Tank Mileage 40.8
    Avg Overall Mileage (First Tank)

    Tank Mileage 52.85 (Third Tank)
    Avg Overall Mileage 39.5

    Tank Mileage 54.55
    Avg Overall Mileage Not Given

    Tank Mileage 46.461
    Avg Overall Mileage Not Given

    Tank Mileage 65.9
    Avg Overall Mileage: 58.96

    Tank Mileage 60.0
    Avg Overall Mileage 50.0

    Tank Mileage 47.51
    Avg Overall Mileage 43.91

    Tank Mileage 46.9
    Avg Overall Mileage 46.9

    Tank Mileage 57.5
    Avg Overall Mileage: unknown

    Tank Mileage 49.37
    Tank Mileage 45.34
    Tank Mileage 47.14
    Tank Mileage 54.71
    Tank Mileage 52.87
    Tank Mileage 51.38
    Avg Overall Mileage 47.5

    Tank Mileage 41.6 MPG
    Avg Overall Mileage (First Tank)

    Tank Mileage 55.0
    Avg Overall Mileage 50.7

    Tank Mileage 47.5
    Avg Overall Mileage 45

    Tank Mileage 46.7
    Avg Overall Mileage (First Tank)

    Tank Mileage 47.7
    Avg Overall Mileage 48

    Tank Mileage 54.3
    Avg Overall Mileage 48.3

    Tank Mileage (4 Tank Avg): 50.8
    Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given

    Tank Mileage 52.61
    Avg Overall Mileage: 47.05

    Tank Mileage 54.7
    Tank Mileage 60.91
    Tank Mileage 61.53
    Avg Overall Mileage 51.51

    Tank Mileage 52.0
    Avg Overall Mileage (First Tank)

    May miles 2523.8
    Gallons consumed 50.487
    MPG 49.98911
    Highest tank 5/28-5/30 249.7 miles. 55.36585366 mpg (coincided with highest ambient temp)
    Lowest tank 4/30 - 5/01 193 miles 46.28874388 (coincided with lowest ambient temp)
    Average Overall Mileage - Not Given

    Tank Mileage 54.0
    Tank Mileage 55.5
    Tank Mileage 58.2
    Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given

    Tank Mileage 61.93
    Avg Overall Mileage 52.12

    Total for the Month of May:
    MIles traveled: 1734
    MPG for the month: 49.8
    MPG on current tank: 49.2
    Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given

    Tank Miles: 1,826
    Gallons: 34.015
    Avg Temp: 58F
    Calculated MPG: 53.7
    Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given

    Tank Mileage 49.4
    Tank Mileage: 49.96
    Avg Overall Mileage - Not Given

    Tank miles: ....484 .... 408 ..... 418 ..... 480
    Overall Miles: .2136 .. 2544 .. 2962 .. 3442
    Avg Tank Mileage 49.88
    Avg Overall Mileage 48.03

    -----------------

    So, there's some more actual data points to consider when pondering what Real Life mileage people get from a P2
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Wow talk about mixing apples and oranges. It all depends on what speed you are travelling in each gear. And then you make the invalid assumption that the acceleration force is constant for the entire speed range in each gear. The you put the CVT in their with speeds , You could actually equate the CVT to different gear ratios, you know an analog to digital conversion.

    You know it is really interesting that the information you provides provides no real meaning, e.g the Camry is faster than the Prius (apprently except during 30-50 mph .8 or so downshift delay), but slower than the Corolla and the Excho even though it has hifgher g force numbers.

    Your apples and oranges input, LOL but not quite as good as your one on perpetual motion from magnets generating 450% efficiency. But the absolute best was that the Prius would acclerate faster if it had a bigger battery ROTFLMAO.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Original Beatle sold because it was cheap, unique and got good mileage. It din't even have a fule gauge , just stop cock that you turned when the first longer pipe ran dry.

    The new retro-Beetle sold for a premium at first and now sales are langusihing so much that VW is thinking of dropping it.

    I not sure demoniziing is the right word. It is just that the Prius is still slower than almost anything else you can buy and some people or really most people are not yet willing to give up performance for the sake of high gas mileage. And the people that are buying cars based on their environmental impact is even a much smaller number.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > most people are not yet willing to give up performance

    Where exactly do you use that "performance" ?

    Dodge's lastest commercial advertises the 150MPH Magnum. What's the point when speed limits are only half that?

    Since I never need 100% power to merge onto the highway with my 2004 Prius, what's the point of more power? Less than maximum clearly satisfies the need.

    Some of us have discovered the speed ceiling has already been exceeded. Purchasing beyond that, for abilities you won't use (can't legally), is simply a waste of money.

    Falling victim to "more is better" marketing is not something to brag about.

    JOHN
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Actually is is 1.2 seconds which is noticable 0-60 mph. You said they were equal and they are not even close.

    It is okay for Prius owners to love their cars. What is not okay is to make statements that are untrue and ignore objective facts.

    Actually, this is not your forum it is open to anyone to post.

    If your time is being wasted, try driving faster or becoming XCELs buddy.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    >> most people are not yet willing to give up performance

    >Where exactly do you use that "performance" ?

    Almost every day driving to work and then driving back home. People in Texas, drive faster and more aggressive than in Minnesota.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > drive faster and more aggressive

    "faster" and "more" are vague references.

    Please provide quantitative values.

    You can't hide behind an "it's different here" excuse. We want actual proof. Exactly how many seconds does it take for you to merge onto a highway, at what speed, and from what distance?

    Where are the facts?

    You claim the current "performance" is not enough. How much more is actually needed?

    JOHN
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    You just descibed the typical Prius driver!

    and you said "you'll get killed at that speed. ..."

    and if they "enjoy the car" they will get lousy mileage.

    Wow! Maybe it it the slow-paced Prius owners that waste time, don't have a life (except for this and other I Love </l> Prius boards) and don't enjoy life.

    I know several that don't like vagueness, don't like any comments against the Prius and don't think perormance is necessary or at least want to redefine performance. For you I can only say have a grenn and prosperous high mileage emission free life.

    One serious factor the AMA recently noted that people who live near expressways or heavy traffic areas have a significantly lower morality rate due to the effect of car byproduct polution on the lungs.

    Promote Telework! End driving altogether!

    YMMV,

     MidCow
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    The lanes are 5 wide in each direction the inside or slow lane exits while the merging lane enters. The length of the merge lane varies from very short 300 feet to some that are comfortably long 1200 feet. The average is around 430 feet with a standard deviation of 77.3 feet. The speed range on the inside lane is dependent on the time of the day. Between 6:30am and 8:30am is averages 58 miles per hour. each successive lane adds 6.1 miles per hour so the outside lane is 82.4 mph. The spacing between cars varies from 1 car length to 3.3 car lengths. A gap longer than 3.3 car lengths is rapidly filled. To travel that close at that speed a person has to be very cautious. In teach of the ramps there is an acceleration portion before the actual merge area, it varies from nothing (rare) to 500 feet (also rare) most are about 300 feet longs with a 3-5 degree incline. The acceleration need to adequately accelerate with some comfort level is achieve by a car running 85% of WOT capacity on a car in the range of 8-8.5 , 0 -60 mph acceleration capabilities. Cars slower than than are passed from behind by other cars in the acceleration lane. For example a Honda Insight with CVT (0-60 mph = 11.5 seconds) from a person I know say they are regularly passed trying to get on the expressway. So to merge comforatably at 1`00% WOT a car with 9-9.5 (0-60 mph performance) would be needed. Now slower cars require them to wait a long time or to find someone who will slow down to let them in, which is even rarer. Just from observation statistics, if you turn on your blinker people close the get 83% of the time and about 80-90% of the time people will only allow you to merge if you are going the same speed.

    You know making something quantitative does not make it non-vague. The is one Prius owner that previously had a classic Prius and now has a new Prius. They post their per tank mileage and their overall mileage on their web site. Does that make the data accurate and factual, well no!. Is is audited buy an outside accounting firm , we no. Maybe the person wants to show really good mileage so the add 2 mpg to every item they post, we don't know. The point is the data is basically an opinion of that person and probably is correct, but maybe it isn't. It is very easy to use numbers and statistics to back up and justify anything even if it isn't true. There is a great book on "How to Lie with Statistics" that shows how this is done.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    It appears that a couple of folks (we know who they are) are clearly annoyed that a majority of the Prius owners actually enjoy their cars. For those that are appalled by the pathetic performance, they need to get a life and learn to mind their own business. The only negative posts I've read are by those people who are annoyed (uninformed people) that they're not getting 60 MPG and instead are averaging a paultry 43 MPG. My mission is clear. I am driving a wonderfully engineered car that gets great mileage with minimal emissions. If the Prius wasn't available, I'd be driving a TDI. I don't see anyone knocking that car as its performance (0-60) is less than the Prius. Some people are clearly perturbed that they simply can't understand the success this car is having. It annoys them to the point that they feel their only release is to post negative comments on an open forum. Unfortunately, their posts will not change the current climate. The Prius, along with other hybrids will continue to enjoy great success. The naysayers will be similar to the people that snubbed their noses at the horseless carriage. It actually is a close analogy since I truly believe the hybrid technology is quite revolutionary. Just take a look at the average 4 cylinder ICE and it probably averages in the mid 20's. At worse, the Prius gets DOUBLE the mileage. I call that revolutionary. Some folks can't admit that a change is a comin'.

    Looking forward to $4.00/gallon gas. The additional cost is worth it, if it changes our culture into more conservative people.
  • ragueroraguero Member Posts: 60
    I don't pamper my 04 Prius to get the best mileage. I drive like a bat out of h-e-double hockey sticks! All over town, in and out of freeway traffic, as much as LA allows that anyway. I am STILL averaging 44 mpg! There is nothing to complain about. If you want a real hot rod, buy one. If you want decent performance and excellent mileage, the only way to go is this Prius. Oh, and mine will go as fast as 105 mph. But don't tell my wife that.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > You know making something quantitative does not make it non-vague.

    Not true, it actually does.

    NEED can very precisely be measured.

    WANT is an opinion, so naturally it differs from person to person.

    Your use of the word "comfortably" expresses an opinion, hence still being vague.

    JOHN
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "you make the invalid assumption that the acceleration force is constant for the entire speed range in each gear."

    You are right. Those thrust(g) values for 4-speed multi gear transmission are calculated from the ideal engine torque peak. In reality, traditional car's thrust(g) should be less. In contrast, Prius E-CVT's value will be much closer to the calculated values.

    "but slower than the Corolla and the Excho even though it has hifgher g force numbers."

    It will be hard to make statements like that because you are talking about a fraction of a second. The thrust(g) for corolla and echo were used with the same wheel size. I don't think Echo comes with 15" wheels.

    "but not quite as good as your one on perpetual motion from magnets generating 450% efficiency"

    I know Minato Motor could work because I constructed a similar motor myself. The only diference is that he uses electromagnet with microchip to perfect the timing. I use my hand with PM and achieve inefficient results. There are differences between you and me. I'll leave you with a quote from JFK.
    "Some men see things as they are and say, 'Why?'
     I dream of things that never were and say, 'Why not?"

    "But the absolute best was that the Prius would acclerate faster if it had a bigger battery ROTFLMAO"

    Stop laughing and think for a second. If Prius has higher capacity battery, it can discharge more electricity during acceleration. This enables the Power Split Device(PSD) to put more horsepower to the wheel, instead of routing hp to MG1 to generate electricity. Higher capacity battery will also be able to provide enough electricity(in terms of capacity, not discharge voltage), during winter as well.

    Dennis
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