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Toyota Prius

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Comments

  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > No I was trying to IMFORM not mislead.

    Then I suggest addressing the differences between "assist" and "full" hybrid. Your hydraulic comments did not, but should have since hybrid type was the topic.

    JOHN
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    The authorities are allowing the market place to dictate our approach to the high cost of energy. I cant argue with that. What price we will pay remains to be seen. I have always owned the most economical car I could buy. Americans wouldnt have bought a hybrid in 1980 either. For that matter, a 1980 VW Rabbit Diesel wasnt worth its $7500 price tag either.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    But ... on my 150 mi daily drive what if I decide that an Echo/Civic/Elantra/Yaris/Rio/Versa etc are all too small for my needs.

    Your position would have everyone no matter their circumstances, budget, preferences buy only an econobox or bicycle.

    In theory this is the best solution for reducing/eliminating pollution. It's a utopian view that has been proven not to work in any modern society. It will not work in a capitalistic free market society. There is no one solution ( best solution ) for everyone. Your solution is actually only good for your particular situation, desires and needs.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Heres how I look at it. The price of energy has to where to go but UP. This is especially true now that China is beginning to use energy on the same scale as the US. At the same time our energy use shows absolutely NO sign of even leveling off. Its just increasing all the time. How would you like to see $10 a gallon gasoline? Could you afford to drive even a 20 mpg vehicle then? Thats not the only issue. Theres global warming. I dont know if it driven by the CO2 levels or its just happening naturally. It just seems only prudent to produce as little CO2 as possible. Certainly the CO2 levels have nowhere to go but UP in the future. The US will have 300 million citizens soon. How long till 1 billion? Ten years? Twentyfive? Just exactly how much CO2 can we produce before something really bad happens to our climate? I dont know. Maybe it doesnt matter. Maybe the consequences are worse than we can imagine.
    What Im afraid is going to happen is we're going to price ourselves right out of ANY kind of personal transportation vehicle. If everyone is riding the bus to work/vacation/the store, an ECHO begines to look pretty good!
    Could it happen?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Nope the really smart engineers now are working on the next vehicle in 5-10-15 yrs which will be 80% more efficient than what we drive now.

    Things never stand still it's just not our way as human beings. There is a need and a demand as displayed by the acceptance of the hybrids during the last 3 yrs for very efficient vehicles. Businesses will look for ways to satisfy our demand because it will be profitable business. We as consumers can choose between several options one of which might be a relatively efficient Echo or Yaris or Fit or Versa.

    Or it might be a diesel dual mode truck that saves more fuel than any Echo might. Consider that if a 30 mpg truck would replace a 16 mpg truck it would be like your Echo getting 70 mpg.

    Consider that the Echo, Civic, Versa, et.al. are the 'base line' and that all future vehicles that are sold after 2010 for example have to get 35 mpg on average or if not then show a 50% fuel saving from the prior model.

    Now we'd be saving a lot of money/fuel/resources and improving the environment. Count on businesses to find some way to profit off this, it's part of our market-based Capitalism.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    from my perspective, driving 150 miles a day is just wrong.
    too much time in the car is the most important to me.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    'base line' and that all future vehicles that are sold after 2010 for example have to get 35 mpg on average

    That makes if very convenient for Ford & GM. They are getting an adjustment on their PU trucks to 33 MPG EPA rating for making them flex fuel E85 ready. Kind of a double whammy. Those with the FFV will get the bye on higher mileage. Thanks to the deep pockets of the Mega Ag executives. Who are probably on the boards of Ford, GM & Exxon. Why build a hybrid when you can add a couple bucks worth of stainless steel to prevent ethanol corrosion.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It is what it is. :(

    Since 1981 I've never lived and worked in the same state even.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Since 1981 I've never lived and worked in the same state even.

    That sounds like my job. Except I only traveled once every 3 weeks to and from work. I would slit my wrists if I had to go out and face the traffic every day like you do. I left CA in 1970 and moved to Alaska because of the traffic. Now it is 100 times worse than ever. No one has enough money to get me to live in a big city or go out on the highway every day going to a job. It is a decision each of us has to make. I chose to fly to work every 3 weeks, First Class of course.
  • canccanc Member Posts: 715
    I'd just like to add that the Prius is a fairly large car that can accommodate adults and their luggage, and is one of the most practical cars coming from Toyota these days--the large hatch is just amazing for carrying stuff around.

    To me, I see it as a really practical, roomy, and comfortable car, and it's a bonus that it happens to be such an efficient hybrid. My only concern is how the car will look in 5-10 years' time, that is, will it look weird and outdated?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > My only concern is how the car will look in 5-10 years' time, that is, will it look weird and outdated?

    People wondered that about the Classic model Prius 6 years ago, since it appeared odd. Now you can look at one with some disappointment, since it blends into the crowd of newer vehicles so well.

    Being ahead of the curve is a strange situation. It's inevitable that increased aerodynamics catch on for practicality reasons. That's true for hatchbacks as well, especially from former guzzling SUV drivers use to a large cargo area. Prius already has both in its favor.

    JOHN
  • canccanc Member Posts: 715
    Thanks for the reply John. You're right, the 1st gen Prius doesn't look that odd today after all, except for the interior's long and awkward shifter. After all, it can't look as bad as the Aztek!!! LOL

    Thanks for your really informative website btw--I'm just wondering, after all your research, have you found that Priuses are more expensive to maintain in the long run? I'm the only hybrid lover in the family, and they all try to convince me that the Prius is not a reasonable choice for a car, given the higher initial cost and possible failure of all those electrical components.

    I still think the Prius is one of the best cars out there, regardless of what they say, but I'd like your feedback on this as a Prius owner. Thanks!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The Prius is likely to have less maintenance normally than a same-sized/type ICE-only vehicle.

    First it is mainly an ICE vehicle so the engine has to be maintained in the same way; oil, filters, air filter. These are all at 6 mo/5K intervals just as with any Toyota now. Similarly the plugs are designed for 100K mi+, the same as any other ICE.

    However the hybrid system needs little or no maintenance.
    - the batteries '..are expected to last the life of the vehicle with no deterioration' according to Toyota; $0 cost likely
    - the transaxel needs a coolant change at 60K; small fee in most places
    - the brakes may take you in excess of 100K miles since a good part of your slowing will be 'gliding' to a stop. Your personal situation may differ though. significantly lower maintenance likely
    Risks (?):
    Most new vehicles ( Prius' included ) are rolling computers. There is a lot of relatively expensive electronics in any new vehicle. This in itself is the reason I'd consider a 100K warranty to extend the 3 yr/36K Basic Warranty. There is already a 100K warranty for the hybrid components and the drivetrains are the longest lasting components of nearly every Toyota. The electronics however are normally covered by the 3/36 Basic warranty.

    You have this risk with any modern, Toyota, Honda, Lexus, BMW, Nissan, etc. Whether to insure or not is your personal choice.
  • canccanc Member Posts: 715
    Those are all valid points kdhspyder, and I'll have to remember them next time I get into a "oh-why-would-you-want-a-Prius" debate.

    Can you or anyone else explain this? Is there more wear-and-tear on the gasoline engine of a Prius because it starts and stops so many more times than an ICE? A friend of mine presented me with that argument and I couldn't help but scratch my head and tell him I really didn't know. He also said that, with time, that gas engine would become noisier and the regular starting and stopping would become far more noticeable than when the car is new. Should I give this friend credibility, or is he so far from reality?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Your friend is guessing actually. He 'believes' that more stopping and starting can cause more 'cold starts' than one continuously running. The ICE doesn't 'turn off' as much as it goes to 'idle' while driving. It still spins most of the time.

    In over 10 yrs on the road and with 500,000 Prius' in service few if any owners have mentioned anything about a rough performance from the ICE. It is a Toyota engine so it is one of the most durable and long-lasting ones on the road. Typically this 1.5L ICE can be expected to last well into the 250K mi range with proper care.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So in essence, your friend is saying the engine on the Prius will get more wear than on other cars because it doesn't run as often, that is, it is shut down much of the time such as when stopped at traffic lights and when moving slowly? Is that logical to you? It isn't to me.

    Maybe the starter on the Prius will get more wear, but isn't the Prius' starter a different design than on most cars?
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    It probably won't surprise you to know that Toyota thought about the starting issue. With a normal ICE the starter motor turns at 100-200 RPM until the engine fires. In an HSD vehicle the engine is spun at about 1000 RPM by MG1 until the electronics detect that oil pressure has risen to an acceptable level at that point fuel and sparks are applied and the engine starts and runs under it's own power.

    Most wear in an engine occurs at starting, so it could be that the ICE in an HSD vehicle might last longer than the ICE in a regular vehicle because it does not actually produce power until it is well lubricated.
  • canccanc Member Posts: 715
    Wow, thanks guys... I'm learning a lot. Just out of curiosity, what's MG1?
  • canccanc Member Posts: 715
    Not quite. In normal city driving, the ICE goes on and off during the course of the trip, whereas a conventional car will start once and keep running until you reach destination. The constant starting-and-stopping, as he suggested, would cause premature wear on the engine. Fortunately, others here have been able to debunk that myth.

    On a similar note, does anyone know of a website that tells you exactly how a Prius works? For example, I've always wondered why whenever I started the Prius (I've rented one twice to see if I liked it), the gas engine kicked in for 30 seconds, and then stopped, reverting back to the HSD. It'd be nice to know the innards this car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I am aware that in the Prius, the ICE shuts down sometimes during city driving. So depending on how much city driving you do and how often the ICE is not running, the ICE in the Prius should have less wear on it after X miles than a conventional car in which the engine is always running.

    It may interest you to know that hypermilers are known to manually start and restart their non-hybrid cars when the engines aren't needed. And those cars don't have the benefit of the Prius' starting system.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > have you found that Priuses are more expensive to maintain in the long run?

    I'm just providing raw data for others to draw conclusions with themselves... especially since by the time many are ready for purchase, a newer version will be available anyway.

    The design certainly supports the judgment that maintenance costs will be lower in the long run. And reports of owners driving well in excess of 150,000 miles without any battery degradation yet is fantastic. (The ongoing record right now for a Classic in the US is at 243,000 miles.)

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > does anyone know of a website that tells you exactly how a Prius works?

    Yup! Start with these links:

    Energy-Flow

    Power-Split-Device

    Power-Split-Device (details)

    Full Hybrid

    Full Hybrid (details)

    Full Hybrid (operation)

    They explain and illustrate how the smaller electric motor (MG1) interacts with the larger electric motor (MG2) and the gas engine through the use of a Power-Split-Device (PSD).

    It's not at all what most people expect. But if you can get a good grasp of the flexibility the PSD provides, it opens up a whole new understanding of why Toyota invested so heavily in that future. It offers a lot of potential.

    JOHN
  • canccanc Member Posts: 715
    Thanks Backy and John! I have some homework to do now... :)
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Unfortunately the very expensive components of a hybrid vehicle dont have to wear out to cause you trouble. They can be dammaged in an accident. It might be profitable to refer to a parts list of the Prius with the cost of each part next to the item. Many of them are out of sight expensive.
    It was mentioned that the engine of the Prius is a Toyota engine and will last for 250,000 miles. It is also nearly the same engine as in the ECHO. My suggestion is to buy an ECHO (or Yaris) and get the very excellent Toyota engine WITHOUT all the potential problems of the powerplant that comes in the Prius. Youll also save $10,000.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Yaris is not in any way, shape, or form close to being a comparable car to the Prius. You can save thousands of bucks buying a Yaris over a Prius, but it's not like you are getting the same kind of car.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    For $25,000 you get a Prius. For $25,000 dollars I get an ECHO, a pilots liscence and a 140 hp Yamaha FZ-1 motorcycle. (and $1500 in change!)
    You also get the privilage of getting seven more mpg.
    Enjoy!!!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Enjoy your pilot's license, bike, and ECHO... in the ECHO discussion. This is the Prius discussion.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Well EXCUUUUUUSE MEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    It never ceases to amaze me how many times people use the "just buy the cheapest" argument. But having no clue what they are missing does make life interesting.

    Prius is simply part of a new class of vehicle, snuck into a void people weren't even aware of. The lack of sound and extreme smooth were pretty much absent in non-luxury vehicles, until the "full" hybrid. Now reviewers are at a loss about how to identify those very characteristics, not wanting to relate a Prius to luxury vehicle designed to the deliver that same quiet & smooth. It's quite amusing.

    JOHN
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You're excused. I know it gets a little lonely over there in the ECHO discussion. What has it been, about 20 messages in the past six weeks, most of them by you and nippononly? No wonder you want to talk about the ECHO in other discussions like this one. ;)

    BTW... aren't there a lot of bikes that are less expensive, and get better fuel economy, than that Yamaha FZ-1 of yours?
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Yes its very lonely over there. Which is strange for me because when I owned my VW Beetle (1974) it was a very popular car and it was easy to find other people interested in them. Generally I find if someone owns an ECHO they cant say enough good things about it! At least the Yaris seems to be selling pretty well however.
    The FZ-1 gets about 38-40 mpg riding it to work and 45 mpg if you take it on a trip. My BMW F650 (fuel injected) would rack up 75 mpg if you rode it 45 mpg on back roads. It would still manage 60 mpg on trips. Too bad its FI system didnt work properly and the dealer couldnt fix it.
    At $7500, the FZ-1 is a space ship for cheap. It will out accelerate a Dodge Viper. I try to take it in small doses. Unfortunately it doesnt have an aerodynamic fairing so it becomes hard to control over 100 mph.(although it gets there in well under ten seconds if you want) Often overlooked are the brakes which stop the bike faster than the engine can accelerate it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Once a week you make this same arguement and it fits for you. Enjoy your Echo. I've sold many and ridden in hundreds, they are just not my cup of tea. But that's what so great about this country everyone can fit into it differently.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I know it gets a little lonely over there in the ECHO discussion

    Maybe that is because they are trouble free. Many of us hang out here at the Prius discussion to see who comes in with a broken Prius. Of course you guys scare off most people with problems on the Prius. Totally in disbelief until Toyota reluctantly admits they screwed up. I left the Passat TDI thread because they just go and go and go without any problems. How boring a thread is that? The last post was in April. That said, a lot of the people that post on this thread are not Prius owners. Just skeptics like me.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Its just so obvious to me that the answer to our energy/enconomy problems is smaller cars like the ECHO. (they could be smaller than that too) If we dont start reducing our demand for energy NOW Im afraid the cost of energy is going to do serious dammage. The Prius is a remarkably built vehicle that works well mechanically. Im suprised it has been relatively reliable. No one else builds a hybrid as well. Which makes me doubly glad I have a car made by Toyota! I just cant shut up about it.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Its just so obvious to me that the answer to our energy/economy problems is smaller cars like the ECHO.

    Heck, all people have to do to use less gas is to simply obey the speed limit. Many simply don't care. So expecting them to switch to a tiny vehicle with far less power is totally unrealistic.

    Of course, Echo MPG is poor in stop & slow traffic (the daily commute for many) compared to a "full" hybrid. Echo is significantly dirtier too.

    So the "small car" suggestion isn't actually a solution... especially when you consider how the automakers complain about the low profit they provide. That sure sounds like it will end up hurting the economy, not helping.

    Lastly, why do you think an Echo debate will finally win now? For the last 6 years, no compelling facts have revealed it as the better choice.

    JOHN
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Many of us hang out here at the Prius discussion to see who comes in with a broken Prius.

    Yes, well... I guess we all get our jollies in different ways.

    If you want to read about the Passat TDI problems, maybe you are looking in the wrong discussion. There's quite a few Passat TDI problems covered in the Passat Problems & Solutions discussion.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    The ECHO is history but the Yaris is selling pretty well from what I hear. Im optimistic that people considering a Yaris are reading the ECHO forum. If so they are finding out how happy ECHO owners are and how reliable it is. They also know the ECHO/yaris is a slam dunk bottom line compared to the Prius.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If you want to read about the Passat TDI problems

    It seems that both Toyota and VW have ironed out the problems in the Prius and Passat TDI. I kind of miss the Passat. I like having the $29k back in the bank better. It was an experiment and it went as planned.

    I am surprised that you never bit the bullet and bought a Prius. You have been one of the gungho advocates since the beginning. Actually you will probably have a lower 5 year TCO than if you had bought Prius over the Elantra.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Except I was looking at a minimum 7-year TCO and it was heavily in favor of the Elantra, with a $9000 differential in up-front purchase price. Still, I really wanted that Prius I ordered and would have it now had it arrived when the dealer said it would, before the lease on my van expired.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think more Americans look at car purchasing the way you do than John does. That Prius Premium keeps getting bigger. Toyota made statements that it would be less with time. That was 3 years ago and a Prius costs far more today than 3 years ago. If you buy one in San Diego with a Pkg 8 the TMV price is $31,119. With TTL you are pushing $35k. that is a lot of money for most Americans. It is also $5k over a fully loaded VW Jetta TDI, that is capable of equal MPG as the Prius. If you are looking at TCO for 7 years. I believe a GMC PU truck will have a lower TCO than a Prius.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Every person has to look at TCO based on his/her own requirements. With the few miles I drive, it's hard to make TCO come out in favor of the Prius. But with more miles driven, and for someone who would not consider a low-bucks car like an Elantra as an alternative to the Prius, the TCO equation can be a lot different. For example, when I did the TCO comparison between the Prius and the Matrix, there was little difference.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    See my response in most bang for the buck...
  • glen4glen4 Member Posts: 9
    Being a proud owner of a 2004 Prius with now 35k mile of trouble free performance I am most interested in the Add Batteries package. I am pretty handy and not unfamiliar with Ohms Law ,etc. Where can I discuss this matter of buying this stuff ?
  • canccanc Member Posts: 715
    I agree with you partly on that one--the Echo/Yaris is definitely a part of the solution, but I think hybrids have also their share of the pie. As others have mentioned, the Prius is cleaner and is more efficient in stop-and-go driving. Hybrids and small cars are definitely the way of the future--buying an SUV just because of the looks or the illusion that they're safer isn't.

    The Echo is a great car for many, but for tall people like me who do a lot of highway mileage, it isn't the best car. The Prius, in this respect, is more comfortable, and the interio space is better than the Echo or Yaris. I test drove both, and prefer the Prius for its roominess and comfort on the highway.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Not very many out of 250,000 or so on the road here now.

    You last point is the most relevant
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Its just so obvious to me that the answer to our energy/enconomy problems is smaller cars like the ECHO. (they could be smaller than that too) If we dont start reducing our demand for energy NOW Im afraid the cost of energy is going to do serious dammage.

    Thats a very utopian pov but too idealistic and too rigid to be imposed on such a varied country as ours. Everyone can't be put into the same little brown box. Given this reality what are the solutions?

    The best is to give each their own choice of vehicles but just make them all more Echo-like or Prius-like or TDI-like. With anyother solution you are just screaming at the wind to stop blowing.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Again you are wrong and miss that the largest part of the driving public will never ever consider a Yaris or an Echo or a Fit or Versa.

    Yes there will be buyers but a huge success for the Yaris would be 50,000 units ( or about half the Prius sales ). Why do you want to take people out of larger more comfortable, safer, better-equipped vehicles that also get 25% better FE and put them into a tiny stripped out box?

    Do you really think that's realistic?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Do you really think that's realistic?

    I have to agree. I would not buy a Yaris to get only 37 MPG combined. Not worth the risk. About half of what I would want to take that risk.

    I was getting my first oil change on my GMC Hybrid Sierra today. I walked across the street to Poway Toyota. They had a FJ Cruiser sitting unlocked on the ramp. I got in adjusted the front seat. Got out and opened the back door and got in to check it out. Very dark and not much leg room. Head room was OK. I liked the inclinometer on the dash. No NAV and it was just under $31k. I got in a new Avalon and it was nice. Then strolled through the lot. Counted 3 Highlander Hybrids offered at just over invoice. Did not see any Prius or TCH. I was never asked if I needed help. Toyota is getting lazy and can and will fall.

    At Greiner GMC/Buick/Pontiac I had not gotten the front door open before a salesman was there to help. If buying a sedan today I would buy the Buick Lucernce over the Toyota Avalon. I wish my wife's 1990 LS400 was not in such great shape. It is still nicer looking than 99% of the new cars.

    I would not buy any small car for sale in the USA today. Not worth the added safety risk. Maybe with a 70 MPG diesel engine.

    PS
    They had a little Yaris right on the street. It is smaller than my sandal. I would need two one for each foot.
  • kneisl1kneisl1 Member Posts: 1,694
    Of course people dont have to buy just an ECHO. They could buy any similiar car. They may not like doing that. It all depends on what the price of gas does. If it goes up to $10 a gallon, I cant understand how driving a 25 mpg car is a viable option. If we dont curb our increasing demand for oil, who knows how high the price of oil will go? It might be a luxury to drive even an enclosed car of 500 pounds in weight and 7 horsepower. Most of us will be on mopeds!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Why any similar car?

    Why not a nicer safer larger vehicle that is even more efficient? This can be had now? Why waste resources on an Echo or Fit or Rio that 'only' gets 35 mpg combined when there are vehicles out there today that can save 30% more fuel than these econoboxes?

    If your goal is to save resources, why not a Lexus that burns biofuel needing no dino fuel and has a hybrid 'multiplier' added for ultra efficiency?
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