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Then I suggest addressing the differences between "assist" and "full" hybrid. Your hydraulic comments did not, but should have since hybrid type was the topic.
JOHN
Your position would have everyone no matter their circumstances, budget, preferences buy only an econobox or bicycle.
In theory this is the best solution for reducing/eliminating pollution. It's a utopian view that has been proven not to work in any modern society. It will not work in a capitalistic free market society. There is no one solution ( best solution ) for everyone. Your solution is actually only good for your particular situation, desires and needs.
What Im afraid is going to happen is we're going to price ourselves right out of ANY kind of personal transportation vehicle. If everyone is riding the bus to work/vacation/the store, an ECHO begines to look pretty good!
Could it happen?
Things never stand still it's just not our way as human beings. There is a need and a demand as displayed by the acceptance of the hybrids during the last 3 yrs for very efficient vehicles. Businesses will look for ways to satisfy our demand because it will be profitable business. We as consumers can choose between several options one of which might be a relatively efficient Echo or Yaris or Fit or Versa.
Or it might be a diesel dual mode truck that saves more fuel than any Echo might. Consider that if a 30 mpg truck would replace a 16 mpg truck it would be like your Echo getting 70 mpg.
Consider that the Echo, Civic, Versa, et.al. are the 'base line' and that all future vehicles that are sold after 2010 for example have to get 35 mpg on average or if not then show a 50% fuel saving from the prior model.
Now we'd be saving a lot of money/fuel/resources and improving the environment. Count on businesses to find some way to profit off this, it's part of our market-based Capitalism.
too much time in the car is the most important to me.
That makes if very convenient for Ford & GM. They are getting an adjustment on their PU trucks to 33 MPG EPA rating for making them flex fuel E85 ready. Kind of a double whammy. Those with the FFV will get the bye on higher mileage. Thanks to the deep pockets of the Mega Ag executives. Who are probably on the boards of Ford, GM & Exxon. Why build a hybrid when you can add a couple bucks worth of stainless steel to prevent ethanol corrosion.
Since 1981 I've never lived and worked in the same state even.
That sounds like my job. Except I only traveled once every 3 weeks to and from work. I would slit my wrists if I had to go out and face the traffic every day like you do. I left CA in 1970 and moved to Alaska because of the traffic. Now it is 100 times worse than ever. No one has enough money to get me to live in a big city or go out on the highway every day going to a job. It is a decision each of us has to make. I chose to fly to work every 3 weeks, First Class of course.
To me, I see it as a really practical, roomy, and comfortable car, and it's a bonus that it happens to be such an efficient hybrid. My only concern is how the car will look in 5-10 years' time, that is, will it look weird and outdated?
People wondered that about the Classic model Prius 6 years ago, since it appeared odd. Now you can look at one with some disappointment, since it blends into the crowd of newer vehicles so well.
Being ahead of the curve is a strange situation. It's inevitable that increased aerodynamics catch on for practicality reasons. That's true for hatchbacks as well, especially from former guzzling SUV drivers use to a large cargo area. Prius already has both in its favor.
JOHN
Thanks for your really informative website btw--I'm just wondering, after all your research, have you found that Priuses are more expensive to maintain in the long run? I'm the only hybrid lover in the family, and they all try to convince me that the Prius is not a reasonable choice for a car, given the higher initial cost and possible failure of all those electrical components.
I still think the Prius is one of the best cars out there, regardless of what they say, but I'd like your feedback on this as a Prius owner. Thanks!
First it is mainly an ICE vehicle so the engine has to be maintained in the same way; oil, filters, air filter. These are all at 6 mo/5K intervals just as with any Toyota now. Similarly the plugs are designed for 100K mi+, the same as any other ICE.
However the hybrid system needs little or no maintenance.
- the batteries '..are expected to last the life of the vehicle with no deterioration' according to Toyota; $0 cost likely
- the transaxel needs a coolant change at 60K; small fee in most places
- the brakes may take you in excess of 100K miles since a good part of your slowing will be 'gliding' to a stop. Your personal situation may differ though. significantly lower maintenance likely
Risks (?):
Most new vehicles ( Prius' included ) are rolling computers. There is a lot of relatively expensive electronics in any new vehicle. This in itself is the reason I'd consider a 100K warranty to extend the 3 yr/36K Basic Warranty. There is already a 100K warranty for the hybrid components and the drivetrains are the longest lasting components of nearly every Toyota. The electronics however are normally covered by the 3/36 Basic warranty.
You have this risk with any modern, Toyota, Honda, Lexus, BMW, Nissan, etc. Whether to insure or not is your personal choice.
Can you or anyone else explain this? Is there more wear-and-tear on the gasoline engine of a Prius because it starts and stops so many more times than an ICE? A friend of mine presented me with that argument and I couldn't help but scratch my head and tell him I really didn't know. He also said that, with time, that gas engine would become noisier and the regular starting and stopping would become far more noticeable than when the car is new. Should I give this friend credibility, or is he so far from reality?
In over 10 yrs on the road and with 500,000 Prius' in service few if any owners have mentioned anything about a rough performance from the ICE. It is a Toyota engine so it is one of the most durable and long-lasting ones on the road. Typically this 1.5L ICE can be expected to last well into the 250K mi range with proper care.
Maybe the starter on the Prius will get more wear, but isn't the Prius' starter a different design than on most cars?
Most wear in an engine occurs at starting, so it could be that the ICE in an HSD vehicle might last longer than the ICE in a regular vehicle because it does not actually produce power until it is well lubricated.
On a similar note, does anyone know of a website that tells you exactly how a Prius works? For example, I've always wondered why whenever I started the Prius (I've rented one twice to see if I liked it), the gas engine kicked in for 30 seconds, and then stopped, reverting back to the HSD. It'd be nice to know the innards this car.
It may interest you to know that hypermilers are known to manually start and restart their non-hybrid cars when the engines aren't needed. And those cars don't have the benefit of the Prius' starting system.
I'm just providing raw data for others to draw conclusions with themselves... especially since by the time many are ready for purchase, a newer version will be available anyway.
The design certainly supports the judgment that maintenance costs will be lower in the long run. And reports of owners driving well in excess of 150,000 miles without any battery degradation yet is fantastic. (The ongoing record right now for a Classic in the US is at 243,000 miles.)
JOHN
Yup! Start with these links:
Energy-Flow
Power-Split-Device
Power-Split-Device (details)
Full Hybrid
Full Hybrid (details)
Full Hybrid (operation)
They explain and illustrate how the smaller electric motor (MG1) interacts with the larger electric motor (MG2) and the gas engine through the use of a Power-Split-Device (PSD).
It's not at all what most people expect. But if you can get a good grasp of the flexibility the PSD provides, it opens up a whole new understanding of why Toyota invested so heavily in that future. It offers a lot of potential.
JOHN
It was mentioned that the engine of the Prius is a Toyota engine and will last for 250,000 miles. It is also nearly the same engine as in the ECHO. My suggestion is to buy an ECHO (or Yaris) and get the very excellent Toyota engine WITHOUT all the potential problems of the powerplant that comes in the Prius. Youll also save $10,000.
You also get the privilage of getting seven more mpg.
Enjoy!!!
Prius is simply part of a new class of vehicle, snuck into a void people weren't even aware of. The lack of sound and extreme smooth were pretty much absent in non-luxury vehicles, until the "full" hybrid. Now reviewers are at a loss about how to identify those very characteristics, not wanting to relate a Prius to luxury vehicle designed to the deliver that same quiet & smooth. It's quite amusing.
JOHN
BTW... aren't there a lot of bikes that are less expensive, and get better fuel economy, than that Yamaha FZ-1 of yours?
The FZ-1 gets about 38-40 mpg riding it to work and 45 mpg if you take it on a trip. My BMW F650 (fuel injected) would rack up 75 mpg if you rode it 45 mpg on back roads. It would still manage 60 mpg on trips. Too bad its FI system didnt work properly and the dealer couldnt fix it.
At $7500, the FZ-1 is a space ship for cheap. It will out accelerate a Dodge Viper. I try to take it in small doses. Unfortunately it doesnt have an aerodynamic fairing so it becomes hard to control over 100 mph.(although it gets there in well under ten seconds if you want) Often overlooked are the brakes which stop the bike faster than the engine can accelerate it.
Maybe that is because they are trouble free. Many of us hang out here at the Prius discussion to see who comes in with a broken Prius. Of course you guys scare off most people with problems on the Prius. Totally in disbelief until Toyota reluctantly admits they screwed up. I left the Passat TDI thread because they just go and go and go without any problems. How boring a thread is that? The last post was in April. That said, a lot of the people that post on this thread are not Prius owners. Just skeptics like me.
Heck, all people have to do to use less gas is to simply obey the speed limit. Many simply don't care. So expecting them to switch to a tiny vehicle with far less power is totally unrealistic.
Of course, Echo MPG is poor in stop & slow traffic (the daily commute for many) compared to a "full" hybrid. Echo is significantly dirtier too.
So the "small car" suggestion isn't actually a solution... especially when you consider how the automakers complain about the low profit they provide. That sure sounds like it will end up hurting the economy, not helping.
Lastly, why do you think an Echo debate will finally win now? For the last 6 years, no compelling facts have revealed it as the better choice.
JOHN
Yes, well... I guess we all get our jollies in different ways.
If you want to read about the Passat TDI problems, maybe you are looking in the wrong discussion. There's quite a few Passat TDI problems covered in the Passat Problems & Solutions discussion.
It seems that both Toyota and VW have ironed out the problems in the Prius and Passat TDI. I kind of miss the Passat. I like having the $29k back in the bank better. It was an experiment and it went as planned.
I am surprised that you never bit the bullet and bought a Prius. You have been one of the gungho advocates since the beginning. Actually you will probably have a lower 5 year TCO than if you had bought Prius over the Elantra.
The Echo is a great car for many, but for tall people like me who do a lot of highway mileage, it isn't the best car. The Prius, in this respect, is more comfortable, and the interio space is better than the Echo or Yaris. I test drove both, and prefer the Prius for its roominess and comfort on the highway.
You last point is the most relevant
Thats a very utopian pov but too idealistic and too rigid to be imposed on such a varied country as ours. Everyone can't be put into the same little brown box. Given this reality what are the solutions?
The best is to give each their own choice of vehicles but just make them all more Echo-like or Prius-like or TDI-like. With anyother solution you are just screaming at the wind to stop blowing.
Yes there will be buyers but a huge success for the Yaris would be 50,000 units ( or about half the Prius sales ). Why do you want to take people out of larger more comfortable, safer, better-equipped vehicles that also get 25% better FE and put them into a tiny stripped out box?
Do you really think that's realistic?
I have to agree. I would not buy a Yaris to get only 37 MPG combined. Not worth the risk. About half of what I would want to take that risk.
I was getting my first oil change on my GMC Hybrid Sierra today. I walked across the street to Poway Toyota. They had a FJ Cruiser sitting unlocked on the ramp. I got in adjusted the front seat. Got out and opened the back door and got in to check it out. Very dark and not much leg room. Head room was OK. I liked the inclinometer on the dash. No NAV and it was just under $31k. I got in a new Avalon and it was nice. Then strolled through the lot. Counted 3 Highlander Hybrids offered at just over invoice. Did not see any Prius or TCH. I was never asked if I needed help. Toyota is getting lazy and can and will fall.
At Greiner GMC/Buick/Pontiac I had not gotten the front door open before a salesman was there to help. If buying a sedan today I would buy the Buick Lucernce over the Toyota Avalon. I wish my wife's 1990 LS400 was not in such great shape. It is still nicer looking than 99% of the new cars.
I would not buy any small car for sale in the USA today. Not worth the added safety risk. Maybe with a 70 MPG diesel engine.
PS
They had a little Yaris right on the street. It is smaller than my sandal. I would need two one for each foot.
Why not a nicer safer larger vehicle that is even more efficient? This can be had now? Why waste resources on an Echo or Fit or Rio that 'only' gets 35 mpg combined when there are vehicles out there today that can save 30% more fuel than these econoboxes?
If your goal is to save resources, why not a Lexus that burns biofuel needing no dino fuel and has a hybrid 'multiplier' added for ultra efficiency?