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Lexus RX 400h and 450h
Since luxury cars and SUVs have bigger profit margins, why don’t the automakers get started with these segments? They can charge a premium on top of the premiums they are already charging for a hybrid system. Even an increase of 20% in fuel economy would make a huge difference, and in cars which only are getting city/hwy average of 18MPG this would mean making the milage around 22mpg, only an increase of 4 MPG. This can easily be done in suvs/luxury cars, while improving performance for an added cost of $4000, probably much less done on a large scale. Better performance, better fuel economy, and better image, people are willing to pay a premium for, especially those who purchase premium products.
A 10 % overall increase in fuel economy would make a dramatic difference in our dependence of foreign oil, I believe it would also make a big difference in air quality and in the environment overall.
Why are automakers focusing on squeezing expensive systems into economy cars when the profit margins on economy cars is already low, and the people who purchase economy cars are on a tight budget? Why? Because they can, because people still buy underperforming, overpolluting cars, and they must leave room for improvement in the future, without new products and constant slight innovation, people won’t buy new cars. When people stop buying new cars they will realize that people are waiting for something new, and they will slowly leak new products. That IS what is happening NOW. Although "they" are ignoring the pleas for some reason. The population has heard that these new cars are on the horizon, so people are waiting, if not consciously, then unconsciously waiting, just a little bit longer to make a new car purchase to see what is around the corner. People aren’t stupid and that’s what is going on, that is why sales are down and the automakers have to give crazy incentives (GM averaging $4000+ per car.) HMMMM why not make hybrid systems and sell cars without the incentives, because people will buy them if they are a better product.
The automakers say higher fuel regulations will make cars too expensive, that is because they are being paid off by oil companies.
OK well that’s way more than enough. What do you think?
A 10 % overall increase in fuel economy would make a dramatic difference in our dependence of foreign oil, I believe it would also make a big difference in air quality and in the environment overall.
Why are automakers focusing on squeezing expensive systems into economy cars when the profit margins on economy cars is already low, and the people who purchase economy cars are on a tight budget? Why? Because they can, because people still buy underperforming, overpolluting cars, and they must leave room for improvement in the future, without new products and constant slight innovation, people won’t buy new cars. When people stop buying new cars they will realize that people are waiting for something new, and they will slowly leak new products. That IS what is happening NOW. Although "they" are ignoring the pleas for some reason. The population has heard that these new cars are on the horizon, so people are waiting, if not consciously, then unconsciously waiting, just a little bit longer to make a new car purchase to see what is around the corner. People aren’t stupid and that’s what is going on, that is why sales are down and the automakers have to give crazy incentives (GM averaging $4000+ per car.) HMMMM why not make hybrid systems and sell cars without the incentives, because people will buy them if they are a better product.
The automakers say higher fuel regulations will make cars too expensive, that is because they are being paid off by oil companies.
OK well that’s way more than enough. What do you think?
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(with the Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive) coming out
next year (2004). Toyota is supposed to come out
with the Highlander cousin shortly afterwards.
Ford has been pushing back the release date on the
hybrid Ford Escape SUV, but they're claiming summer
of 2004 also.
Hey, the automakers have to start somewhere...
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Lexus 400h on display at the auto show. They wouldn't let us get any closer!
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Right now there's really not much information out, other than it'll combine the current RX engine and an electrical one. The RX engine will power the front wheels and the other one will power the rear. 400 denotes to an equivalent of a 4.0 engine with 270 combined horsepower. Fuel economy is sketchy now, with rumors from 28mpg to 600 miles per tank.
The thing that concerns me is reliability. I know Toyota has 2 Prius but this will be a first hybrid SUV with substantial more horsepower. It has to withstand the abuse in a SUV. It is a very sophisticated system and no one knows how long it'll last. Granted, if you want one car company to start it, you want it to be Lexus. But right now I might just wait a bit and see, and maybe let them work out the problems with the early models. Another dealer has advised me to lease a current RX and wait a couple years before I get the new hybrid. Sounds like a safer bet to me.
So of course they can deal with the margins on bigger cars by putting hybrid systems on an already expensive vehicle, slipping in that extra high price option. And if big truck buyers resist paying extra for a hybrid truck, they can say, "See, people don't want to pay extra."
It's easy to be harsh on Detroit, given what happened in the '70s and '80s. But with booming SUV and truck/van sales, these Detroit executives think car buyers are telling them that fuel economy and emissions is secondary to comfort and feelings of safety in a big car. Plus, most of the auto executives at the American car companies weren't around probably in the '70s and '90s when Detroit was caught surprised by American's desire for more fuel-efficient and reliable cars offered by Japanese imports.
I think it interesting that no one blamed the European market of being "Paid off" by the oil companies. Where are their hybrid cars, hmmm?
The simple fact is people that look at large, American SUVs are not all that concerned with fuel economy/emmissions. I know I wouldn't trade in my 5.3L gasoline Tahoe for a hybrid.
Who's asking you to anyway? But there are plenty of people who are willing to pay 45 grand for a mid size SUV that generates 270 Hp, gets 30+ mpg and at the same time do something good for the planet. If you like inhaling sulfur dioxide and carbon monoxide that is up to you, but I sure wouldn't mind driving a cleaner burning car that is also powerful at the same time.
Cheers
Nick
I would like to know how you got the 4k number. Anyhow, fuel economy isn't the only benefit of HSD. You will also get an ECVT transmission which has virtually infinite amount of gears. You will always be in top gear without any up or down shift lag. You will also get dead silence quietness at the stop lights.
Push start button and Smart Entry will be extra convenient features. The heater will deliver heat faster from a cold start. You will also get a touch screen control for climate control.
There will also be more space in the front; more leg room due to compact hybrid packaging and removal of the gear box. You will not fall asleep during traffic congestion also.
I assumed all those Prius features will make it to 400h. Most of them are benefits by HSD design.
"Clean-Fuel Vehicle"(HYBRID) Adjustment to Gross Income
If you purchase a hybrid electric vehicle (gasoline-electricity) or another qualifying alternative fuel, you likely qualify for a "clean-fuel vehicle" adjustment to gross income. Qualifying alternative fuel vehicles use biodiesel, compressed natural gas (CNG), ethanol, liquified natural gas (LNG), methanol, liquefied petroleum gas (LPG or propane), dedicated (100 percent) electric, hythane or hydrogen.
Internal Revenue Service (IRS) instructions show that electric hybrids (Toyota Prius™, Honda Insight™ or Honda Civic™ Hybrid) qualify as "clean-fuel vehicles." Vehicles bought in 2001, 2002, or 2003 are eligible for an adjustment to gross income of $2,000. The deduction amount decreases by $500 each year following until it is phased out. IRS publication 535, "Business Expenses," (page 48-50) details this deduction. Chapter 12 states that you may claim this "clean-fuel vehicle" income adjustment even if it is not used in a trade or business.
As an individual, you claim this deduction by placing $2,000 (or appropriate deduction amount) on line 34 of your federal 1040 tax filing form. To qualify, you must indicate "clean-fuel" on the dotted line to the left of any deduction cost entry you place on line 34 of the 1040 form. Keep in mind that line 34 is the sum of adjustments to the Adjusted Gross Income line so you must add the "clean-fuel vehicle" amount to any other adjustments to gross income you have for the sum amount to be correct. This adjustment may be claimed on your tax filing for the year in which you purchase the vehicle. You may have to amend back taxes to claim this adjustment. Consult your accountant / tax preparer.
I just worked up a scenario with a (pre deduction) AGI of $50,000. After the $2k adjustment was used, taking the AGI to $48,000 the tax liability only changed $300.
For those people who are weighing the extra cost, $300 isn't all that much.
Jees, that reminded me of a client I had who wanted to mortgage his house because he wanted to save on his taxes. I had to explain and explain to him that he wasn't going to SAVE money doing that!
Out here in CA (where hybrids aren't allowed on commuter lanes), we have smog test every two years. With the lower emissions, are hybrids likely to pass the smog tests for a longer period of time?
Or maybe CA, which is big on reducing emissions, should exempt hybrids or require smog tests every 3 or 4 years instead of every two.
Another thing I forgot to mention is the hybrid reliability. Overall, Hybrid Synergy Drive (HSD) drive train is more complex than traditional Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) drive train due to two power sources. BUT, mechanically, HSD is simpler. The complexity of HSD is moved to electrical and transistor level. Four 32-bit processors manage the energy flows between the ICE and the battery. Load-balancing between two power sources reduces stress on each source by half. Electronic motors and computer processors are generally more reliable than mechanical parts. Therefore, HSD will be more reliable by design.
HSD cars also have better weight distribution. Internal Combustion Engine is in the front and the battery is in the back.
Not all hybrids were created equal. I don't believe mild/parallel hybrid is worth the premium cost for most people right now. Toyota HSD is a full hybrid. It is actually a serial parallel hybrid. It has advantages of both worlds. Toyota can explain better than me about it here. http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/what.html
As far as I know, we don't know for sure how much extra premium Toyota/Lexus is going to charge for the Hybrid version. But I can tell you the following benefits by design:
Total silent at the stop light. Priceless.
Instantaneous power delivery. Priceless.
V8 power with I4 fuel economy. Priceless.
A decade ahead of emission standard. Priceless.
Dennis
Points well taken.
> The Smart Entry is on other cars that aren't hybrids so it isn't an exclusive feature.
But we are comparing RX330 and 400h with assumption of $4k difference. BTW, I am only guessing that it will most likely be available for 400h. Maybe your good friend can fill in with which features come with $4k extra.
> I have touch screen climate control on my GS300 and like it, but the my RX with Nav is more than adequate
Comparing RX300 to 400h, wouldn't you rather prefer touch screen climate control and Nav?
Dennis
Even on the National level every attempt to exempt the Hybrid has been shot down.
On the other hand, we should look at the cost to buy and true cost to own for these vehicles. We probably need to do some math to see how many miles we need to drive or how long it will pay for itself. I looked at the Prius discussion. The demand for the '04 Prius is very high. Some dealers are charging over the MSRP. I talked to my Toyota dealer. They told there is a usual 7 to 12 months wait for the Prius.
No wonder the demand is high for the Prius when we look at the gas mileage of 60 mpg and the nearly $1.7+ per gallon of regular. Good thing about these hybrid cars are using regular fuel. I don't know if RX400h needs premium fuel like RX330.
Lexus is quoting 30mpg in autoshow. The best you should expect is about 25mpg. Hybrids get better city than highway mpg. 25mpg is pretty good considering most RX owners get 17~20mpg in combined driving.
OK, assuming 7mpg saving for 91+ ($2 in CA). On average 12K drive per year, you save about less than $400 for fuel ($1330 vs $960). You need 10 years to recover the cost. It would be more if you consider $4000's opportunity cost (interest?)
My point is that if people buy hybrids for saving money, they are missing the points. 400h get better response (horse power), which worth $4000 alone for some people. Saving fuel cost is just icing on the cake. Being first in owning one is priceless (as the TV ads says...)
BTW, 400h would only come "fully loaded". That is on top of the $45K loaded RX330. You can expect $50 price tag. For lower-end, they want you to get Highlander hybrids instead.
Just MHO.
ceric - I agree with you. But the marketing for these hybrid cars make people think they are saving money by burning less fuel, like 20 mpg gasoline powered car vs. 40 mpg hybrid car.
Beside the clean air issue, Lexus (Toyota) should consider putting its V8 engine on RX from LS430 for more power. Beside the the RX is 1000 pounds heavier than LS, the gas mileage is very close. I think people would agree to spend an extra $4K. And people will put a question mark on RX400h.
Actually both the RX330 and LS430 weigh in at about 4000lbs. I believe the RX330 is about 4,200lbs.
Apparently you need to show up in person with a big wad of cash showing in your clenched fist before they will engage you in conversation? You would think they would treat 'live' prospects with at least a little interest.
He added that the available date is between December 2004 to January 2005. I have no reason to believe that he was lying. Otherwise, he would ask me to buy the RX330 now.
That's because it is WINTER right now.
ALL vehicles take an efficiency hit during the cold season.
Going from -18F two weeks ago to 25F today, I saw a huge improvement with the MPG in my Prius. Another 50F degrees will account for another signficant MPG improvement.
MPG is lower during the initial break-in period too.
JOHN
Dennis
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=503- 2
Dennis
Do you think when EPA test highway MPG, they make sure th battery is bone-dry from previous runs (whatever they were) so that there is no "cheating"?
As an engineering professional, I am having a hard time believing 400h would get better highway MPG (claimed 31mpg) than standard 330's 26mpg. Just explain to me where the extra energy efficiency comes from when cruising on a 400 miles stretch of highway 5 from SF to LA? (remind you that there is very minimum braking)
If you know how EPA test MPG, you would smile. The numbers are inflated for hybrids. For regular vehicles, they are good for comparison only.
That said, I am very interested in 400h. It is one of the few vehicles I am considering to replace my '98 BMW 540iA.
HSD has minimum threshold (I believe 30%)for the battery capacity. When the battery hits below that, it'll recharge from the ICE. One of the concept of HSD is to store energy when the most appropriate and use it when the most beneficiary. Your suggestion is the situation HSD is designed to avoid. Draining the battery before EPA test would be cheating out of HSD.
> As an engineering professional, I am having a hard time believing 400h would get better highway MPG (claimed 31mpg) than standard 330's 26mpg. Just explain to me where the extra energy efficiency comes from when cruising on a 400 miles stretch of highway 5 from SF to LA?
To appreciate HSD efficiency, you'll need to understand sources of inefficiency in the traditional cars. Graham Davies explained on his site very well.
http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyToyotaPrius/Understanding/In- ternalCombustion.htm
If your main usage is highway, SUV might not be the best suitable vehicle for you. Just a statement, not a suggestion.
RX330 FWD: 20 mpg / 26 mpg
RX400h FWD: 36 mpg / 31 mpg
400h has combined millage of 33.5 mpg. 10.5 mpg more than RX330
RX330 AWD: 18 mpg / 24 mpg
RX400h 4WD-i: 36+mpg / 31+mpg
The 400h four wheel drive version is suppose to be even more efficient than 400h FWD version due to ability to recapture more energy from regenerate braking.
The idea was to improve fuel economy by 50% and translate the other 50% to performance. The result is the extra 40 hp, super ultra clean emission, and other benefits I posted previously.
The same reason I4 Camry Auto gets 23 mpg / 32 mpg vs. V6 Camry Auto gets 21 mpg / 29 mpg. Lexus RX 400h will have similar engine as RX330. Instead of RX330 Otto cycle, 400h will use Akinson cycle. This fundamental change in engine cycle gives RX 400h better fuel economy (even highway). Akinson cycle enables the engine to be tuned closer to the "sweet" spot; resulting in higher efficiency. Akinson cycle has disadvantages as well but electric motor complements its shortcomings.
You can think of HSD as a married couple rather than a single person. Husband makes up for the wife's weakness and vice versa. It is the harmony between the two that gives overall higher efficiency. Regenerative braking and others are also responsible.
Dennis
It should be quieter and smoother. Quieter due to the high RPM (Over 6,000 RPM) elimination. Smoother due to ECVT which will also gives instant power response. Read message #21 and #27 of my posts for more information.
Dennis