Purchasing Used Vehicles

orlando_m · May 2011

I really appreciate your effort in guiding me.

Thanks for the perspective.

fezo · May 2011

I disagree with much of what plekto says but that doesn't mean he's wrong.

I think both the best and worst deals are to be had with private parties. It's all in how you follow what they tell you. Anything that can't be proved (maintenance and such) doesn't exist.

I don't mind rentals. I had a Sebring convertible that was previously a rental and it was fine. It also wasn't stripped.

The late model Taurus is a good idea - the Park Avenue and LeSabre would fit well, too.

plekto · May 2011

Correct. You have to get documentation and a full history with any private party sale.

90% of them are not like this, they claim to not have it, there's a problem somewhere, and so on, and should be avoided. Expect near perfection and everything in its proper place or just keep looking. There are thankfully tons of elderly people on Florida who tend to buy these kinds of cars. They're terrible for a place like San Fransisco or Chicago with the nasty roads and terrible city traffic, but for highway cruising and and getting to work and back in a place like the Midwest or Florida, they're great.

backy · May 2011

I've seen '07-'08 Fusions and Milans (twins) advertised for under $10k (I don't live in Orlando though), from dealers. I think they are very nice cars, great blend of ride quality and handling, and have been reliable. Good crash test results also. IMO they are superior to the old Taurus in just about every way imaginable. Fuel economy is good with the four-cylinder.

Another option in a mid-sized car is a 2006+ Sonata or 2006.5+ Optima. Sonata is a little larger/roomier but not much; the Optima tends to be less expensive. You might be able to find a car with some factory warranty (which runs 5 years/60k miles) for under $10k. I have a 2007 Sonata GLS I bought used 17 months ago and have been very happy with it. It still has a year of factory warranty left and it has 50k miles on it now. It's a roomy and comfortable car--actually has full-sized interior room but is a mid-sized car. Get the four-cylinder for best fuel economy.

And, my son just bought a 2007 Accord SE with stick shift for a little over $9000 plus tax and fees, from a dealer (not a Honda dealer though). It has 90,000 miles on it but they are the so-called "highway miles" and the car is in excellent condition. Accords are very reliable, get good fuel economy, and are fun to drive.

fezo · May 2011

Good ideas!

And yeah, if you are in Florida you'd have an embarrassment of riches in this part of the car market. Lots of well kept low mileage cars in the right size.

orlando_m · May 2011

I haven't found very few sub-10K sedans in 07/06 year models, at least with zag.com, carmax.com, craigslist and cars.com or at few of the local dealer websites.

On second thoughts I'm revising my budget down to 8K

So if you can suggest any other websites / avenues for finding deals please let me know

qbrozen · May 2011

autotrader.com
getauto.com (not sure if this is a national one or not)
lemonfree.com

stever · May 2011

Did you go looking for a used car and find that prices were so high that it made more sense to buy a new car instead? Or found that your trade-in was worth a lot more than you expected?

If so, a reporter wants to interview you. Please email pr@edmunds.com no later than 3pm Eastern on Thursday, May 5, 2011 and include your daytime contact information.

plekto · May 2011

Like I recommended, you're looking in the 2004-2006 range, but something that is well built like a Cadillac, Buick, or similar. Big, solid, owned by an elderly person who hardly drove it.

http://orlando.craigslist.org/cto/2345651032.html
This is local to you and is a typical example, though the number of bums and crooks on Craigslist makes it without a doubt a "buyer beware" scenario. But it could be one of the 20% or so of postings that are legitimate and not full of problems.

http://orlando.craigslist.org/cto/2355895004.html
Of course, this is cheap enough that you could drive it for nearly 125K miles before you broke even on the 5K price difference in extra gas cost over the Buick. I've had cars like this and they impress me to no end. This is especially nice as it's a green color and has enough chrome on it to make it immediately obvious that it's not a rental or cop car.

orlando_m · May 2011

A process question this time - once I like a used car, how do I go about getting the title and registration tag? When do I pay the insurance?

Let's say I have the cash in hand, walk in to a dealer and find a car I like - do I just make the payment, get a bill, make the insurance payment online and drive away with the car? Or does getting a tag for the first time take at least a day or so?

Thanks for the help - I hope to go out and buy a car this weekend.

plekto · May 2011

The dealer will do the paperwork for you, for a fee(which is almost always far too high). If you live in a state where insurance is required, you need to have insurance, obviously. Contact your insurance agent for exact info as it may vary from state to state.

The typical method with a private party sale is: Buy car. Get insurance (seller or dealer has to have it smogged if required - it's NOT your job to do so). Go back to DMV or Auto Club to register it. It's a little cumbersome, but if you already have insurance (on any car at all), going to the Auto club is as simple as it gets.

Bring the seller and yourself to the local office. Do the transaction (usually cashier's check, sometimes cash for very cheap cars), and they verify insurance and smog and register it all in one 10 minute session. Since it's a good idea to have membership anyways, I actually find it easier to buy a car private party than from a dealer.

My local Auto Club office will also give me new plates on the spot if the car needs them. No dealing with days or weeks for the dealer's paperwork to clear. In and out in 15 minutes (vs 3-4 at the DMV!) and I don't see them for two years until my next smog check.

orlando_m · May 2011

I assume smog check means a pollution emission check?

So in case I buy a car from a dealer, do I get a 'temporary' tag or plate to drive the car with till I get the permanent one? Or can I drive down to the local Auto Club without the plate / registration in place? Some of the cars on the lots don't seem to have any 'current' plate etc.

Kirstie_H · May 2011

A dealer will place a temporary tag on your vehicle. In most places, they are good for 30 days.

The dealer will hand you ALL of the paperwork that you need to get the car registered and licensed.

They will not let you drive the vehicle off the lot without insurance, though, so you will want to be ready to get insurance right there and then.

plekto · May 2011

Note - I meant 3-4 *hours* at the DMV. Some dealers will take that long, almost, to negotiate and fill out paperwork as well. As you might guess, I'm a big fan of private party sales as I get history and paperwork, can see the lifestyle and cleanliness of the owner, and save huge amounts of money in the process. IMO, the only reason you go to a dealer is to either get a near-new CPO vehicle instead of a new one, or a new vehicle.

Buying used from a dealer is handing them potentially thousands in extra money just for the convenience factor of saving yourself a couple of days of leg work. \

Note - a place like CarMax is a special case to be aware of - with 500-2000+ cars on their lots, it can give you a lot of choice all at once. But their "no haggle" prices are extremely high, even by dealer standards. They're just about the only place you'll still find used cars being sold for full Blue Book. That said, CarMax *is* good for locating new and CPO vehicles at good prices due to their large network in several states and fairly straightforward shipping of vehicles between them. Perfect if you have to have a specific option and/or color that none of the local dealerships have.

stickguy · May 2011

If you don't (as it seems) have an existing policy, then you really need to shop around in advance and get set up with that. They can get your policy in place, even without a car, pending your purchase. Then, you (private sale) or the dealer just has to call the insurance agency to give them the vehicle info.

vaires by state, but normally if you buy at a dealer they do all the DMV paperwork. Some states they give you the plates then, in others, a temp tag and you get the plates later after they send someone down to the DMV for them.

private sale, you take the title, etc (and proof of insurance) to the DMV to get it done, and they will hand over the plates.

plekto · May 2011

This is also why you don't want to negotiate or deal with a purchase late at night if you can help it, as the banks and your insurance company are usually closed by then. Optimally you want to call both of them directly from the dealership and get the basic information to them.

You then will have to likely drive the car over to the local insurance agent's business as well ,since insurance on a car loan (unless you paid cash) always requires full insurance coverage, and that requires a visual and sometimes mechanical inspection. Just something to be aware of as another "step" in the process.

The bank will be sent the actual title, as the car is legally theirs until your loan is paid off. 5 minute call, tops (usually the dealer calls your bank in addition), and then the dealer sends them the paperwork in the mail. Sometimes the bank will also request a copy of the key or door code in case they have to repossess it, depending upon your credit rating. Just something to ask about when the loan is over, since duplicate keys are expensive.

Often if there's a delay in the paperwork at the dealership, it's because the previous owner's bank still has the title and hasn't released it yet or there are legal issues over money owed on it. Be sure to ask the dealership on any car that you buy about this and verify that they have the actual title in their hand. (if you are going to buy *that* specific car, ask to see the physical title, when it comes time to sign the paperwork) Otherwise you may be looking at 2-3 months or longer in a worst case before the title actually is in your hands.

note - CPO and usually on most dealership lots, this is all taken care of. On smaller independent lots, often they will put a car up for sale before they even get the title cleared/in their hands.

backy · May 2011

You then will have to likely drive the car over to the local insurance agent's business as well...

Really? I've never been required to get a physical inspection of any car I've purchased or leased over 35 years of car ownership. I simply give the particulars to my agent over the phone, including VIN, and he takes it from there. My son just got insurance for his car and it was a Web-based transaction--no inspection.

plekto · May 2011

Mine has always requested a quick visual inspection for full coverage, but then again, I generally have a $100 or so deductible. With a $500 or $1000 limit, they probably don't care all that much, especially for most online quotes.

fushigi · May 2011

I, too, have never had an insurance agent/company so much as toss a glance at my vehicles. New (since '93) or used (before '93), I've provided the VIN and make/model/trim for verification and that's it. For the past two cars ('99 and '10) I just gave the info over the phone and received updated policies via mail. My agent said that, at least here in Illinois, your existing policy automatically covers your new car for something like 10 days to give you time to do any insurance paperwork. This held true even though my old car only had liability while the new, of course, got comprehensive.

That covers both Indiana & Illinois FWIW. So maybe it's a state thing or maybe just one way your insurance company is attempting to reduce fraud.

tallman1 · May 2011

I agree with not having to have an insurance agent look at a car. In fact, I've been with this particular company for over 30 years and I've never set foot in any office nor met anyone in person. I've done everything over the phone.

bolivar · May 2011

My State Farm agent changed a few years ago. She, or an employee, does a walkaround on used cars.

plekto · May 2011

Maybe it's a State Farm thing, since my agents does it as well. It takes maybe 1 minute, tops.

michaellno · May 2011

Maybe it's a State Farm thing, since my agents does it as well. It takes maybe 1 minute, tops.

Agreed. My SF agent, who I've had for almost 18 years now, wants to do a walkaround and take photos of any used car I buy. New cars - nah, just give her a VIN and the updated policy info shows up in the mail.

qbrozen · May 2011

NJ Manufacturers has requested different things at different times. I remember having to take my car to an agent once. At other times, I've had to take a pic or 2. But never when buying from a dealer, for some reason.

In the case of Hagerty, they always ask for a couple of pics.

orlando_m · May 2011

I finally bought a car - a 1999 Acura RL with nearly 110,000 miles for $7,900 OTD from David Maus Toyota at Sanford, FL. It drove quiet and well during the test, and the carfax was clean.

I consulted KBB and paid slightly under the trade-in value of this car, but couldn't get the $699 dealer fee waived off. In fact that number is hard-printed on their financial paperwork. So you can only negotiate on the selling price at this dealership.

I know I could have hunted some more for a private party or a better deal from another dealer, but I didn't have the time. Hopefully the car will live up to its 'Acura' reputation.

The experience was good at this dealership. I'll likely go back when I want to replace this car.

I bought insurance online with Progressive and took printouts at the dealership itself. They took care of the title/tag right there at the dealership. The financial paperwork did take about 1 hour to complete.

I thank everyone on this thread for their useful tips - really appreciate your time and concern for helping a newbie.

qbrozen · May 2011

enjoy.
good luck with it.

yogirgb · May 2011

Hello everyone,

I purchased a '95 Eclipse from a private party. Two days after this the car died, most likely due to the timing belt. The previous owner had not smogged the car and I had heard from an unreliable source that I can use this to get my money back. I am in California if that makes a difference. Please help as I am now carless and after putting tires on the eclipse I have 2k less for another vehicle.

plekto · May 2011

The car is yours. Sorry. The only thing that you can really do is to take the person to court and force them to pay for the smog fees and repairs as 100% of that it their responsibility to take care of before they sell the vehicle.

Any such liability on his part only covers federally mandated safety items such as non-functioning airbags and so on, which need to be working properly (will trip the service engine light or show up as a separate light). They can sell you a vehicle with major safety problems, but it must be disclosed at the time of the sale as a parts vehicle or as salvage. (can't get it insured without these working, so isn't legal to drive on the road any more)

This is why you make sure that it has a smog certificate in hand before buying the vehicle. But even then it's court time(tm) and they are backlogged a full year almost in most of the urban areas here in CA.

If you bought the car and the service engine light was not on/no ABS or Air bag lights/etc, the only recourse you have is to recover smog fees.

Hopefully the repair bill on the engine isn't too much. They are nice cars, and rebuilding the engine on one isn't that difficult. They are classified as interference engines, but the overlap is merely enough to bend the valves a bit. People have reported little or no damage at times, so hopefully it isn't a major rebuild.

euphonium · May 2011

If you don't request some financial participation from the Seller, you're not going to get it and he's not a mind reader.

I sold a Town Car to a local person who advised me several months later that it cost him $200 to have the power window repaired, a week after I sold it. He thanked me for giving him $100 towards the repair.

A day after the new owners moved into our former home, they had to replace the water heater. I found out about it and paid for that one too because we sold a used home with a working water heater.

It's O. K. to ask.

mcrrt · May 2011

Which Chrysler Town & Country/Dodge Grand Caravan would you buy, and why?

1. A 2008 (known for it's first-year teething problems), approx. 30K miles, one owner off lease?

2. A 2010 (3rd year of production, hopefully worked out some of the first-year problems), approx. 30K miles, ex-rental vehicle with dozens of previous drivers?

Equipment, condition, and price all being equal, which is the better pick?

Thanks!

orlando_m · May 2011

I have driven rental vehicles for months (as part of my travel in US and subsequent arrival on work visa). I didn't find any 'issues' in the vehicles I rented from Alamo / Hertz in economy / compact / mid-size classes.

So my thought is - if it didn't give any problems when I rented it for 4 weeks, why should it give any problems over 52 weeks, or more? I know some people don't like rentals but I think they're quite well maintained, and if it's an automatic transmission, well how much can you 'drive different'?

I'd go for the 2010 vehicle as it'll have the latest safety measures and hopefully a higher rating - but it's worth checking that on the individual models.

Hope it helps.

plekto · May 2011

I drove one of these as a rental for a week (needed a minvan for the extended family for the reunion drive). Absolutely horrendous in terms of how I'd mash the accelerator and almost nothing would happen. It felt like the transmission was a CVT out of an Alitma. Terrible in side winds. Seats that were actually worse then GM. Gas mileage was no better than a typical SUV.

But it was a good van-shaped-thing. Nothing more than that in any way. It was a box that got a lot from A to B. In fact, I'd rather have been driving an actual van conversion or better yet, my cousin's Suburban.

A: Just don't buy one. At least not the previous generation models.

So what to get? The Honda is a better vehicle, but they are having transmission issues right now. The Toyota is consistently rated just behind them and is built like a tank. Win-win. GM? Their idea of a minivan is a Suburban.

mcrrt · May 2011

Thanks for your input, Orlando!

mcrrt · May 2011

Thanks for your reply, Plekto

I do like the Odyssey (and to a lesser degree, the Sienna), but they are quite spendy, even used.

The GC/T&C twins, while unexceptional, are plentiful, well-equipped (compared to a similarly priced Honda or Toyota), and their heavy depreciation works in my favor.

We've been driving a 2003 Venture for almost 8 years now; we've grown accustomed to "unexceptional".

The main concern I have about the Chrysler vans is that my wife and I can't afford a ton of downtime for repairs.

qbrozen · May 2011

We bought an '08 back in January.

Not sure what teething problems you are referring to. No issues in the service history of ours or since we purchased it. And, depending on which model you buy, the drivetrain has been around for ... oh... I dunno.. . must be decades. We bought the limited, however, which has the 4.0 and 6-speed, which is a relatively new drivetrain in '08. Again, though, no problems for us so far.

Given the cost difference, the '08 is the way to go, IMHO.

Kirstie_H · May 2011

I had a T&C (2003-ish) and it was fine. Not special, but it worked for our needs, and honestly, the seats and seating position were so comfortable for me, it was like driving in my living room. Lots of things to knock about Chrysler, but that was one comfortable minivan.

Not sure what warranty is left for 2nd owners of Chrysler vehicles right now, but if there's anything left, it will be on the 2010 rather than the 2008.

I'd be inclined to stay away from ex-rentals of certain models, especially the smaller cars - those, in my mind, are more likely to have had a multitude of short-term, around town driving rentals, and they're the cheapest to rent... not very practical for long journeys with families.

I'd think a minivan would largely be rented by families for long trips. One would hope that that group of people would be more likely to take care of stuff rather than trash it. You never know.

Then again, you never know about ANY vehicle, for sure. I'd guess that rental companies at least do regular maintenance to preserve their investment. I'd be more inclined to go for the rental in this particular instance.

Kirstie_H · May 2011

Oh... I thought he said roughly the same price.

mcrrt · May 2011

Kirstie,

You make an excellent point about the type of use a rental van would see, compared to say, a rental compact car.

I'm leery of an ex-rental from the standpoint of the numerous drivers it has seen, but I'm also concerned that an "off-lease" vehicle had only the bare minimum in maintenance (since the user planned on returning it at the end of 2-3 years).

Oh, the decisions....

mcrrt · May 2011

Gbrozen,

Thanks for your reply.

Sounds like you got one of the "good" '08s. From what I've read, the '08s had a high failure rate for brakes and A/C, as well as numerous recalls.

The advantage for me going with an '08, is that (in my local market) the same money that will get me a 2010 ex-rental with cloth interior will get me an 2008 with leather and dual DVD.

Similar money in a Honda or Toyota gets me an '07 or '08 with cloth, more miles, and no power anything....

Kirstie_H · May 2011

Hey, it would not hurt to ask both sellers if they have maintenance records. Some leased vehicles are maintained very well, and that's probably true if it's a company lease - they usually pay for the maintenance.

There's always a gamble with used vehicles, but asking questions might help. Oh, and of course looking at & driving each vehicle! Never know if there's a feature or two in one of them that might push you toward one over the other.

isellhondas · May 2011

You are a better person than I am. Unless the person who bought my car was a friend, the total repair bill would be on them.

Likewise, if I buy a used car and something breaks the next day, I wouldn't ask or expect the seller to participate UNLESS it was something they jury rigged to work for a week.

Anytime I sell one of my cars, I fully disclose everything that I am aware of. If that scares them off, so be it.

I even write up a short document that I have them sign that says the car is being sold strictly AS IS.

I've never had a problem.

If I was buying a used car that uses a timing belt, I would make sure to ask when it was replaced. If there is ANY question or if I get a blank look, I assume that it hasn't been done and if I do buy the car, it go's into the shop ASAP.

Kirstie_H · May 2011

Have you held off on a car purchase because you're waiting for a better deal? Or did you go ahead and buy because you assume car prices could just rise even further this summer? An Associated Press reporter would like to talk with you. Please send your contact information to Aaron Lewis at pr@edmunds.com

qbrozen · May 2011

hmmm... interesting. I wonder just how high of a rate we're talking about. MSN autos gives it all green checks.

plekto · May 2011

http://www.insideline.com/toyota/sienna/2011/2011-minivan-comparison-test.html
Edmunds 2011 Minivan Comparison

The 2008+ models did very well.
But... I can say this with 100% truthfulness. Chrysler builds automatic transmissions that are and have always been a noticeable level below that of their competition. When they were merged with Mercedes, Mercedes was using mostly Chrysler built automatics and it nearly killed their image. Jeep and Dodge have horrendous problems with their automatics as well (manuals are fine, though - nicely bulletproof).

The best automatics are built by GM and Ford. Given that it's a potential $3000+ repair for an automatic these days, it's worth adding that into the equation for any used vehicle.

The reason that the T&C has such good used prices is because they depreciate like a rocks and are impossibly hard to sell if you try to sell one yourself private party. You could take most private party ads and offer them low blue book or close to it and they'd jump at it in this economy. There's a reason for that. The smart money is to spend the extra 2-3K on the better vehicle with the same trim/features.

*********
These are kind of SUV/Minivan crossovers that all get over 20mpg:

- Chevrolet Traverse/Buick Enclave - nice 3rd row seat with easy access. GM has a very nice interior and a GPS that does real-time traffic updates.(favorite feature on my parent's CTS)

- The Ford Flex gets my attention as it's really more of a minivan that feels like a car or traditional wagon. Well built, inexpensive used, and a good drivetrain. I'd buy one over any traditional minivan just because of how much better it drives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWh7kHw-hgQ
A good review of the 3rd row seat. If I had to drive 6 people around, this would be my choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJa3nc0RtwI
Nice review.

Note their actual observed MPG. Most minivans wish they could get this type of actual mileage.

A used one will run you a few thousand more, since it is a 2009 model. My recommendation would be to wait until the next year models come out in a few months and the used prices on the 2009s drop to the 14-15K range.

jwilliams2 · May 2011

But... I can say this with 100% truthfulness. Chrysler builds automatic transmissions that are and have always been a noticeable level below that of their competition. When they were merged with Mercedes, Mercedes was using mostly Chrysler built automatics and it nearly killed their image. Jeep and Dodge have horrendous problems with their automatics as well (manuals are fine, though - nicely bulletproof).

I don't believe this is correct. Mercedes supplied some 5 speed transmissions to Chrysler after the merger which Chrysler called the NAG1. It was used in vehicles such as the Grand Cherokee and 300C/Charger/Magnum. Never in a mini-van. And by that time, Mercedes had moved on to its 7G-Tronic transmission.

Mercedes always kept to its policy of allowing Chrysler access only to its older technologies. Mercedes has always used in-house automatic transmissions and never used Chrysler transmissions.

plekto · May 2011

I'd heard/read that there was a lot of technology sharing between them, both ways. Whatever Mercedes may have done, the technology certainly wasn't apparently copied well, or Mercedes had a run of junk for a decade or so. (probably a bit of both)

Anyways, the history aside, the fact that Chrysler makes the worst automatic transmissions in the industry (aside from maybe Suzuki or Daewoo) is pretty much a known fact. Failures at 60-80K are unfortunately all too common, and it's a large reason why used models are so inexpensive.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ee93e7a
100 pages and growing about just their sub-standard transmissions. I wish I was making it up, but Chryslers and Jeeps are known for puking up transmissions every 5-6 years of normal driving. Ford seems to have made a concerted effort to build solid transmissions as of late, though. Chrysler is still suck in "why build something that lasts that far past the warranty?" thinking. It's not like problems with their brands and drivetrains haven't filtered back to their CEO. It's been a solid 20+ *years* of these issues and it's simply that nobody is caring and changing things.

They also have fairly crappy electrical systems. Gremlins are widespread as they age. Again, there's a real reason why these things are so inexpensive, yet so hard to sell/get rid of for the poor sellers.

You can buy a Town and Country. But you have been warned.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/cr-recommended/best-worst-in-ca- r-reliability/reliability-findings/reliability-findings.htm
Note the third bullet-point in the first section:

Chrysler remains the lowest-ranked manufacturer in our survey. We can recommend only one of its vehicles, the four wheel-drive Dodge Ram 1500.

Rock bottom in reliability according to Consumer Reports. To get on their worst list, even considering their rabid hatred of GM, takes some real doing. The Ram 1500 gets good marks as the 4x4 base model is ordered a lot with manual, which is decently reliable.

jwilliams2 · May 2011

Not doubting anything you say about Chrysler quality. Just that Mercedes-Benz never used Chrysler tranny's. Matter of fact, I can't think of anything MB used from Chrysler.

Any problems MB had were their own. And I think to say they "had a run of junk for a decade or so" is an exageration fueled by internet boards, and not actual owners like myself. I've owned many during the last 25 or so years, and not one could be considered "junk".

plekto · May 2011

The cars were OK in the late 90s and early 2000s, but not much more than that. Especially for the Mercedes automatics. Of course, the smart person got a Mercedes with manual if it was offered (mostly roadsters and the C class). Mercedes has always made some of the best manual transmissions in the world, along with BMW and Porsche. It's the automatics that are so-so with the German brands, but it's understandable as for a long time, the only automatics made for the German market were taxis and rental fodder.(S Class aside, of course)

Of course, it's changed in the last few years, and the current Mercedes' are properly world-class now. Even the current C class is a stunning if far too sedate for my tastes ride. It has a fit and finish to it as well as a refined engine that, well, shows why it still commands such respect. The new S Class boils down to one simple fact - the fact that the engine itself on the higher trim AMG models is signed by the person who built it shows that it's a whole level of anal going on at that factory that most automotive engineers working for other companies never experience. Some day I hope to own another S class, even used.

But back to the original poster's question - I'd not buy a used Chrysler product and expect it to be a good long-term investment. You'll also eat more in fuel costs - about $300-500 a year or higher than the Flex.

I did everything short of getting out and pushing a T&C on that week long trip. And it didn't get over about 22mpg with 5 people in it. That was mostly highway miles as well.

MPGoMatic got 18.3/24.9 (21.6) on a Dodge Caravan with the 4.0 V6 engine. (same engine combo as the upper trim T&C)
They got 23.4/28.1 for the Flex. (25.8) Mostly due to a handy fuel economy gauge in the dash that helped them to eek out every last drop of fuel (similar to how the Prius does the same with its little in-dash graphs)

While the official averages on paper might be essentially identical (17/25 vs 17/24), that real-world city figure is actually almost 5mpg better, and that translates into about 4mpg in real world driving. The Ecoboost feature is a huge gas saver.

If you drive 12K a year, that's an average of 555 vs 466 gallons. Or about $350-$400 in today's prices. Just something to factor in, as pretty much nothing other than a hybrid gets 25mpg and also seats 7.

qbrozen · May 2011

Yes, the old 4-speed automatic chrysler tranny was horrible, and I avoid it. We had a Pacifica on lease for 3 years. Wife wanted to keep it but I said no way I'd actually OWN one with that tranny.

The '08+ T&C, however, does not use that old 4-speed coupled with the 4.0L engine. It is (was) a new 6-speed. I haven't found any widespread complaints of that tranny (yet), so I'm hoping for the best.

And, as far as this depreciation thing, the T&C probably has the best resale of chrysler products. The '08 we bought 4 months ago had a trade-in value of $21k, which it still has 4 months later (actually a few hundred higher). As a matter of fact, between May 2009 and May 2011, it has depreciated a bit under 16%. A Sienna during that same period was 9%, but an Odyssey was 18%. So I'd have to say the T&C is holding its own.

If one likes the Flex, that's cool. We took a look at it. We didn't like it. Just wasn't as usable (nothing compares to a minivan in that regard) and the seats weren't as nice.

plekto · May 2011

I'm glad it's working out for you. But it's likely to be a rough ride in a few years. My previous Toyota, as an example, was ready to be retired at about 340K and I coaxed it to 390K. If you can keep a vehicle a few extra years if you have to (hey, the economy may do that "imploding" thing we all hear about, you never know...), it'll be worth the few thousand in extra money that you spend to not *have* to buy another vehicle in 5 years.

My previous two Volvos had 240K and 320K on them. My Mercedes, well, it said 75K, but it had obviously rolled over 2-3 times.

Trying to get a Chrysler product past 150K is an exercise in economic folly. I can't get most GM cars that I've owned much past 150K without major repairs.

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