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Nissan Titan vs. Ford F150

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Comments

  • keaneckeanec Member Posts: 349
    Ant - sorry, not a good example...even your coveted Detroit News is hammering it. Don't you read the headlines about the lawsuits? Axles falling off and such,,,tsk, tsk Ford having axles fall off?

    As to Mazda, business 101 listen up Ant! Ford controls Mazda, they don't own it. Remember deriding me because I said I don't agree with the way industry counts sales in the full size truck category? Well, the industry doesn't measure Mazda production as part of Ford - Have you not read your Detroit News lately? That is why they are saying Toyota passed Ford for #2 in the world production. Why the double standard?

    As to your comment "NOT Consumer Reports, Car and Driver, nor MotorTrend, which are questionable resources in the industry."

    Give me a break, if I had the energy I would go back and find your post where you said "Congratulations F-150 on winning Motor Trends Truck of the year" So, it is okay if it says something favourable about Ford - but otherwise it is a rag like Consumer Reports?

    Ya know Ant - ya wear me out! Now go ahead and start quoting me! :-)
  • keaneckeanec Member Posts: 349
    Sorry, I must have been hallucinating but it wasn't Detroit news where i got the info, but Detroit Free Press - It must be a rag along with CR MT and Car and Driver! See below

    "Ford Motor Co.'s Crown Victoria sedans, the subject of lawsuits over fatal fires and a recall of some 2003 models for potential wheel cracks, face a U.S. inquiry after police departments said axles broke or wheels fell off."

    I guess Detroit news wouldn't post his, eh?
  • midnight_stangmidnight_stang Member Posts: 862
    So F-150 vs Titan? or Motown vs. Ford?
  • lizardking1lizardking1 Member Posts: 27
    Don't just rely on Magazines and Newspapers for your evidence as to who's the best.. Those markets are not fair when Companys pay them huge amounts of money to advertise and write praise. The big 3 love to throw there money around. To me the evidence lies in the technology in vehicles. The Asians and Europeans will always be ahead in the technology market of vehicles.. Besides in commercials,speeches and articles the big 3 always refer to "European design" when promoting vehicles. Ford F-150 interior they admitted to "European design". All vehicles have there good point and bad. But when you see the Big 3 buying out other car companies it sure makes you wonder why.. It seems to me they have to buy those companies out or "merge" because they need the support to build quality. Nissan did a good job building/designing the Titan and it scares people that are loyal to the Big 3. Ford does have sharp in interior I'll give it that just no power and the same old design on the outside.. I drove Dodge 1500,2500 "hemi" Ford F-150 and the GMC.. They all have good points and bad points. It came down to power,design and reliability. Rather people want to admit it or not you can count on that Nissan just running forever.. It will rust out before it will ever stop running..
  • lizardking1lizardking1 Member Posts: 27
    The Ford F-150 was my second choice before buying the Titan. I think that Ford had more power then the HEMI did, but so does my wifes eclipse..LOL!! Where looking at trading her car for something a little better.. I think BMW is the only one not owned by the BIG 3. Besides you just can't go wrong getting a Beamer. I do like the power of the Maxima whoa that car can move but the Beamer 3 series is about the same price..
  • kjdenahykjdenahy Member Posts: 16
    2004 Tow Vehicle of the Year by Trailor Boats Magazine (March 2004 issue). www.nissannews.com

    Let's hear you Ford guys say why this is ANOTHER award that the Titan should not have gotten.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    KEANEC,

    " Don't you read the headlines about the lawsuits? Axles falling off and such,,,tsk, tsk Ford having axles fall off?"

    That was Detroit news, and and your incorrect in stating that the rear axles are falling off. Two different police agencies have reported premature wear or fractured axle. Ford issued a service buletin to check for the issues, and NHTSA has opened preliminary investigation. Like they do on EVERY manufacturer when a concern is brought to them.

    At no time did the article mention about rear axles falling off, so let's control the drama a bit.

    "As to Mazda, business 101 listen up Ant! Ford controls Mazda, they don't own it"

    Yes in the U.S. it's controlling interest. By Japanese laws, it's owning. Either one, doesn't matter since Ford is working by U.S. industry facts, which is why I HAVEN'T stated "Ford is still #2 because of Mazda sales", That's irrelevant to the point.

    "Give me a break, if I had the energy I would go back and find your post where you said "Congratulations F-150 on winning Motor Trends Truck of the year" So, it is okay if it says something favourable about Ford - but otherwise it is a rag like Consumer Reports?"

    I'm stating the news factor behind it, even if I'm not in agreeance towards the way they rate their vehicle. Focus won car of the year in Europe for example, in some motor show...Whoop Dee Doo, I'll report...Have I been to the show? No... Should I not mention the story because I didn't attend it? No... Should I not mention it even if I would never buy a Focus anyways? No...

    Why do many of us insider's in the industry do not take MT, C&D, etc serious? When they test a vehicle initial, they sing praises over it, love it, have orgasms over it. Next month, they kick the vehicle, proclaim all it's faults, and leave it like some [non-permissible content removed] child. And not to mention the advertising dollar's and their sources of revenue. GM's Lutz already stated he would be spending much less on advertising on such magazines.... Found that rather ironic since GM is one of the biggest advertiser's.

    As for Consumer Report's, their way of gathering information is questionable, and comparing it to other survey gathering resources, there's a huge margin of error...Specially considering where/who these survey's are being answered by. Numerous stories have been written over this issue concerning Consumer Reports and their validity over vehicle assessments being questionable. Freepress, AutoWeek, and Detroit News had stories related to that. JDPower Survey is the source most in the industry take much more seriously.

    "I guess Detroit news wouldn't post his, eh? "

    Don't let the name fool you. Just because it has Detroit in the title, doesn't mean they are biased towards american products, if anything, read some of the stories... and you might see it's the other way around. Check articles from Doron Levin, Paul Linert, Daniel Howes, John McCormick....

    And YES Detroit News ALSO published this story, written by Jeff Plungis from the Detroit news Washington Bureau dated Jan 27th, Titled: Crown Victoria axles probed. But surely because the name Detroit is in the title, you might still find it biased.

    MOTOWN:
    "As for your disdain of Consumer Reports; that's pretty much what I expect from someone who cannot deal with the facts, or just plain ignorant. "

    No I think it's YOU who are ignorant to use JUST ONE source (questionable at that) to derive your ill-informed opinions. Pretend that your in school, and think your writting an essay report. And that you need to gather numerous resources for an article... NOT ONE...But various that have the same point. And THEN maybe story might seem a bit more credible then just ONE source.
  • keaneckeanec Member Posts: 349
    I meant to say Axles breaking and wheels falling off (and/or cracking)...sorry for the blunder. The lawsuits were about the crown vics catching fire. Three different problems.

    Here is a quote:

    "Ford Motor Co.'s Crown Victoria sedans, the subject of lawsuits over fatal fires and a recall of some 2003 models for potential wheel cracks, face a U.S. inquiry after police departments said axles broke or wheels fell off. "

    Ant, lighten up - other people like other "rags" and in their opinion they are better than your "rags". The point is, it is their opinion which they are entitled to, even if they are not an "insider"
  • dogface5dogface5 Member Posts: 87
    In my last post, I had no intentions of insulting the customers of Ford Motor Company.

     As a businessman and more importantly a consumer, I want all car companies to do well (increased competition means better cars). This is the problem that Ford has. They aren't able to compete in today's global economy. And mo is right, they are so busy playing catchup they aren't thinking ahead and this will definitely hurt them in the long run. I hope that ford learns how to revive its company before it is too late.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    That's the same way I feel about GM, dogface - but I don't like most of their cars.
  • dave989dave989 Member Posts: 21
    MOTOWN if you ever went to business school youd know whoever has the Highest percentage of the company "owns" the company. In this case ford has the highest percentage of the company so they basically own the company and i wouldnt be in the wharton school of finance if i had smoked something
  • keaneckeanec Member Posts: 349
    QUOTE: "if you ever went to business school youd know whoever has the Highest percentage of the company "owns" the company. In this case ford has the highest percentage of the company so they basically own the company and i wouldnt be in the wharton school of finance if i had smoked something "

    Hey I am not Motown, but - you must be toking something???? eg.

    A owns 26% of company, B owns 25% of company C owns 20% of company John Q public owns rest.

    Who owns the company? answer A & B & C & JQ do.

    They all do - Doesn't Wharton teach you that??????

    As to controlling the company, who do you think does???? Wharton teach you that??
  • motownusamotownusa Member Posts: 836
    Dave989 - You would have made a good accountant at Enron. Maybe ought to think about working for Ford and tell them how great their finance is. As for Ford "owning" Mazda, you can split hair either way you like. The fact is Ford doesn't own a majority of Mazda shares, that is why the number of Mazda sales isn't added to the number of sales by Ford Motor Company. If you still want Ford to be #2 based on their 1/3 ownership of Mazda then I have nothing to say. If Ford really owned Mazda the way you think they do, Mazda would have chosen Bill Ford as their chairman. The last time I checked Bill Ford is NOT the chairman of Mazda. I
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    KEANEC,

    "I meant to say Axles breaking and wheels falling off (and/or cracking)...sorry for the blunder. The lawsuits were about the crown vics catching fire. Three different problems."

    Yes, I've addressed this issue on another forum. Since the CV has been in duty since the early 80's, 22 vehicles have caught fire while being plowed from behind...these vehicles are ALL the Police Interceptor models. Why? Because the accidents mostly involved police officer's stopped on the side of the highway giving a ticket, (and one as an example) a drunk driver plowed into the rear with his Jeep Grand Cherokee doing 75MPH. At that speed, ANY VEHICLE should catch fire. I say they should test it on Accord or Camry and see how much worse it can be.

    NHTSA investigated those incidents, and concluded that the CV was safe and did pass government mandates for rear impact protection. While lawsuits are still being fought in the courtroom. I have a great link detailing this if your interested, I have it on my home computer.

    "Ant, lighten up - other people like other "rags" and in their opinion they are better than your "rags". The point is, it is their opinion which they are entitled to, even if they are not an "insider" "

    I'm fine with opinions, we all have them. But when someone is posting false information, company demise with no principal's or research to back it up, all conclusions summed up by a few paragraphs of one article...THEN there's a problem.

    Granted, no company is perfect and I will find pros/cons with all of them, but having this vision of Ford being doomed as if this were Argamedon when there's numerous other companies with much worse problems, is just what we call "Old Detroit" hype circa 1990's.

    I'm off tomorrow to Chicago on "business", hopefully when I return on the 10th the topic would return to what initially it was set up for. :-)
  • landru2landru2 Member Posts: 638
    anything to do with Titan vs. F-150? Some moderation please?
  • haironghairong Member Posts: 153
    keanec, you may know bussiness 101, but you apparently do not know bussiness 102, how to do bussiness effectively and efficiently. Ford owns 33.4% of Mazda AND has an option to own up to 50.1%, when the Japanese law allows them to and they feel the need to do so.

    As to Toyota unit sale wise is #2 in 2003, it's pure news sensationalism. Nothing more than that. Market cap wise or profit wise, Toy. is much better than Ford (better than BIG3 combined!) for several years now (ever since the Firestone tire recall). But that's not news worthy in 2004, now is it?

    Actually, the news headline should read, "By traditional reporting method, Ford not counting Mazda's output while Toyota counts all output from its two subsidiaries, Toyota has surpassed Ford as the world #2 automaker in 2003, by about 60,000 units." You think people will be interested in this news?

    Technically, Toyota does not wholly own its two subsidiaries, they are both at 50.1%, IIRC. So, if you take away half sales of those two sub. from Toy. number, and more importantly, add 1/3 of Mazda sales to Ford number, Ford is comfortably in the front by over 400,000 units. But who's counting.

    That all said, I do acknowledge that Toyota is doing much better than Ford right now. I still remember in mid 90s, then Ford CEO Trotman predicted that Ford would surpass GM (revenue wise) to be the world #1 automaker in the near future. At the same time, Toyota chairman said Toyota would be world number two (he didn't say who would be #1) in ten years.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    And Trotman should have been correct, because Ford was on course to do that then. I believe if Trotman or Peterson would have stayed on, they may have done better.
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
    why do you like your titan/f150?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    ... but this is approaching terminal!

    If you want to discuss the business side of the automotive world, the News & Views board would be a better choice. There are always topics active over there geared more towards talking about the manufacturers than the vehicles. Let's leave this one as is... a comparison topic, Titan vs F-150

    Thanks!

    PF Flyer
    Host
    Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
  • aggiemph1aggiemph1 Member Posts: 56
    I think that Nissan designed the Titan w/ the automotive press first in mind. So they added in a gimmicky feature or two (my example for this is the storage well in the L rear fender), gave it a whale of an engine, b/c we all know how the auto press are power junkies (possibly b/c its one of the few objective measures of a vehicle) and made sure it was within an inch or two of all dimensions of the Big 3 in order to avoid Toyota's perception problem.

    Ford on the other hand, went straight for the mainstream consumers,updating their current truck in all areas. No, I don't believe the new f150 will win ANY comparisons, but it will take the sales crown, year in and year out.

    Nothing wrong with either approach, but remember to shop carefully for your needs. I think they Nissan Crew XE is wonderfully priced and content laden. I also would never consider buying a KC XE b/c they appear overpriced and don't deliver enough features for the money.

    My $0.02, lets get this thing back on track

    Regards,

    AGGIE
  • corsicachevycorsicachevy Member Posts: 316
    Does anybody know what happened to Ford's plans to have twin spark ignintion on their new 3V engines?
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
    will probably come with hybrid technology...like honda does.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The Tempo had a twin spark engine in it for at least a year. Didn't notice any remarkable improvement from that.
  • corsicachevycorsicachevy Member Posts: 316
    The Tempo never had a twin spark engine. The Ranger pickup truck had a twin spark 2.5 liter OHC four, but never the Tempo. The Tempo used two versions of the ancient pushrod 2.3 liter four (which I think was derived from some 50's era inline six).

    I had read rumors that Ford was working on a 300+hp twin spark Triton 5.4V8. I was just wondering if Ford had a more competitive engine waiting in the wings. It looks like Ford either needs a more powerful engine or a better transmission to match the performance of the Titan.

    In the meantime, someone should work on getting the Nissan drivetrain in the F150.....
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I could swear the Tempo had that twin spark 2.3L one year.....but if I'm wrong, did it do any good in the Ranger?
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
    1992 and half of 1993...the tempo had a V6. same 3.0L that the base taurus and ranger still have. i might be mistaken, but didnt that engine have twin spark in its early days?
  • corsicachevycorsicachevy Member Posts: 316
    The Vulcan V6 never had twin plug ignition.

    Did the twin plug head on the Ranger's 2.5 SOHC inline four do any good? Yes, but given that the engine was such an outdated lump it was hard to tell. I think it was more like Ford attempting to squeeze the last ounce of utility out of an ancient design. A noble pursuit, but without significant gains.

    As many of you likely know, Mercedes uses twin plug 3V heads on most of its engines. It seems to work well for them - why not Ford?
  • midnight_stangmidnight_stang Member Posts: 862
    That 2.3l four cylinder was a stout motor. It wasn't a huge performer, but it got great gas milage and had great reliability. I took one over 140,000 miles and never had the valve cover off. The tempo was OHV while the 2.3l found in mustangs, rangers and aerostars were OHC. The fact that there were used 1974-95, and in minivans is a testament. The dual spark was introduced early 90's. I believe the current Ford 2.3l is an all 4V aluminum version of this same motor, with tweaks in design. The Turbo 2.3l found in Mustang SVO's were quite the motor that could easily hang, and out slalom the v8's of the day.
  • keaneckeanec Member Posts: 349
    Didn't the old Nissan 2.4l have a dual spark plug setup? I had a '84 Nissan pickup (my first new vehicle) and it had 8 sparkplugs in a four cylinder. Is this what you guys are talking about? I don't think it was a 3 valve design though, but isn't this old tech?
  • iowabigguyiowabigguy Member Posts: 552
    Dual spark is generally used for emission purposes rather than performance.
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
    has been recycled into a modern version in the focus for 2004...weird.
  • cheapownercheapowner Member Posts: 47
    Anyone knows why Ford's 5.4L is only 3V not 4V? Honda has SOHC 4V for a long time. 4V and 3V (if both SOHC) are the same width if size is a concern (to fit in Econoline's doghouse).
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    If Ford put the 4V engine in, they would have the Lincoln Intech engine, without paying for it. This way, they get close.
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
    is also a marketing gimmick...many truck buyers are afraid of 4 valve engines because of the old wives tale of low torque.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    "has been recycled into a modern version in the focus for 2004...weird"

    The old 2.3L shares nothing with the new 2.3L that's found in the current Focus. Two totally different designs that ironically have the same displacement.

    "Anyone knows why Ford's 5.4L is only 3V not 4V?"

    Cost, efficiency. The 4V as Nvbanker stated, would be Intech which is used in the Navigator.

    "Dual spark is generally used for emission purposes rather than performance"

    Very true, that was the main emphansize of Ford's engine redesign.
  • dklaneckydklanecky Member Posts: 559
    Tough month to be selling trucks, unless your Nissan or Toyota or GM or Chrysler?????

    "GM's truck sales were up 12.8 percent. Ford's truck sales fell 4.7 percent, despite the continuing success of the F-150 pickup. Chrysler sold 21.5 percent more trucks than the previous January.

    Jim O'Connor, Ford's vice president for North American marketing, sales and service, expressed confidence that the company's new models of cars would yield results by the end of 2004. "

    Ford, GM Report Decline in January Sales
     
    February 4, 2004 06:10 AM EST
     

    DETROIT - As the overall car and truck market stagnates, General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. saw sales drop more than expected last month even as Japan's Toyota Motor Corp. and Nissan Motor Co. continue to surge in the American market.

    Together, domestic and foreign makers reported a 0.7 percent drop in car and light-truck sales for January.

    GM, the world's largest automaker, said Tuesday that its new car and truck sales fell 1.8 percent in January, while Ford reported a "painful" decline of 9.8 percent.

    Nissan said its sales soared 25.7 percent, while Toyota's climbed 15.8 percent. Honda sales fell 3.7 percent.

    DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler Group was alone among the traditional "Big Three" domestic automakers to report a positive month, noting a 9.4 percent increase.

    Analysts had expected frigid weather in much of the country to offset brisk business at the end of January. But if the weather was a factor, it did not appear to affect all companies.

    "Perhaps it only snowed on GM and Ford dealers during the month," quipped David Healy, an analyst with Burnham Securities Inc. "Bottom line, it's the same old story - the Japanese brands are eating Detroit's lunch."

    The seasonally adjusted annual sales rate for January was 16.1 million units, compared with 16.2 million in January 2003. The sales rate indicates what sales for the full year would be if they remained at the same pace for all 12 months.

    "January sales results were below expectations," said John Smith, GM's vice president for North American sales, service and marketing. "While we had good results in some divisions ... a new industry record in sport utility sales and strong truck sales overall, car sales and sales in certain regions were disappointing."

    Ford, the nation's second biggest automaker, said it remained optimistic that a new car lineup would change its fortunes.

    Both GM and Ford saw the biggest declines in their car sales, with GM's car sales down 16.8 percent and car sales for the Ford, Lincoln and Mercury brands falling 20.1 percent. Chrysler's car sales also fell, declining 23.2 percent.

    GM's truck sales were up 12.8 percent. Ford's truck sales fell 4.7 percent, despite the continuing success of the F-150 pickup. Chrysler sold 21.5 percent more trucks than the previous January.

    Jim O'Connor, Ford's vice president for North American marketing, sales and service, expressed confidence that the company's new models of cars would yield results by the end of 2004.

    "The most painful declines from the standpoint of our overall performance are the midsize cars - the Ford Taurus and the Mercury Sable," Ford sales analyst George Pipas said in a conference call with investors. "Painful in the sense that mid-size cars still represent about 20 percent of total new vehicle sales in the United States."

    Taurus sales fell 26.6 percent, and Sable sales were down 47.1 percent.

    But Pipas said "help is on the way" in the form of two new mid-size sedans, the Ford Five Hundred and the Mercury Montego.

    Also going on sale this year, which Ford has dubbed "the year of the car," are a redesigned Focus, a new Mustang, and the crossover Freestyle wagon.

    The car introductions mark a shift for Ford, which like other U.S. automakers, has put most of its emphasis on pickups and SUVs in recent years, losing ground in the car market to Japanese companies.

    More:

    "As U.S. automakers have neglected the car market, Japanese companies have gained ground with trucks. Nissan, which last year introduced the Armada, a full-size SUV, and the Titan pickup, saw truck sales soar 65 percent last month. Toyota's truck sales were up 27.4 percent."

    Full Text of the Story:

    http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=1&aid=D80GD6300_st- - ory
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
    chrysler sold more trucks because they have more "light trucks" than they did before.
  • cheapownercheapowner Member Posts: 47
    "The 4V as Nvbanker stated, would be Intech which is used in the Navigator"

    -But Lincoln's 5.4L is a DOHC.

    ""Dual spark is generally used for emission purposes rather than performance"

    Very true, that was the main emphansize of Ford's engine redesign."

    -So where is Ford's 2nd spark plug?
  • haironghairong Member Posts: 153
    Sticking to this topic, Ford F-series had a record month for january, at 61,979, up 9.6 percent, while Nissan sold 4,035 Titan. If you notice, Ford's year over year increase is more than the total Titan sales. I don't claim to know Nissan's monthly sales goal, so I will ask Bowke, do you know what was Nissan's projection for Jan? And was Nissan satisfied with Titan's sale so far? All I know is Nissan's published goal of 100k for 12 months. Thanks.
  • keaneckeanec Member Posts: 349
    Don't forget the record month for f-series includes, all the 2003s F-150s that have been heavily discounted, all the heritage models, and most importantly F-250, and f-350's. Ford has been pretty secretive about breaking out the number of the new 2004 F-150s sold. They just say it helped.

    As to the 4000+ Titans sold. Nissan is extremely satisfied as they really didn't have much inventory on many dealers lots. It is going to take a while to get the inventory to the level where customers can buy their choice off the lot. Many people (including me), have had to order and that takes up to 90 days. I read an article that said the Nissan brass is very happy at how well it is selling.
  • haironghairong Member Posts: 153
    What's your point? Didn't Ford have all the "heavily dicounted" 2002 F150s, and the F250s, F350s, back in January 2003? A 9.6% increase to a new record is impressive, and it's due largely to the all new '04 F150. Fact is, since the introduction of '04 F150, F-series sales had double digit (if you round 9.6 to 10) increase for 5 months in a row, while setting 3 monthly records. Considering the heavy incentives have been there for more than two years, the only plausible and logical reason is the new f150.
  • keaneckeanec Member Posts: 349
    You are making assumptions and that is my point. Ford has not released (that I know of - maybe you have info I don't?) the figures broken down into how many new F150 2004 non heritage edition they have sold. If we go by the fact there was an increase so it must be the new F-150, then that is a assumption, not a fact. The fact is Ford sold 12000+ Econoline Vans this January and 11000- ones last year for a 12.6(lets roundup to 13%) increase. Was that because of the new F150?

    Another fact is Ford sold 84,278 F-150s in Dec 2003, which you say is a record - but they sold 84,657 in Dec of 2001 - not much of an increase, eh?

    My point wasn't to cut down Ford about how many new trucks they sold, it is just be careful how companies say things. I would like them to give us a breakdown of how many of those F-series trucks that were sold (not to the dealers, but the end consumers) were the new F-150's.

    We know exactly what Nissan sold, but we don't know what the new F-150 sold.

    Besides - Ford is going to sell a ton of F-150s. Nobody is really disputing that. Each Titan that is sold a new sale for Nissan and a lost potential sale for Ford. So, in January, Ford sold 4000+ units less than they could have sold.
  • hjodyhjody Member Posts: 5
    Actually, all 4000 people that bought a Titan wouldn't have bought a Ford, perhaps they would have bought a Dodge, Chevy, Toyota, or even an Acura...So, saying Ford lost 4000 potential buyers isn't exactly correct...
    I'd like to see the sales figures on the F-150 vs. Chevy 1500 vs. Ram 1500...why can't they publish the half-ton sales individually?...what are they hiding?...I own an F-150 myself but honestly I've never seen so many Dodge Rams in my entire life...their sales have to be up, bigtime...
  • keaneckeanec Member Posts: 349
    Hairong.

    Just to go a little further, Ford actually had the 2nd worst increase of full size truck sales in January.

    Nissan Titan Jan 2004 N/A no sales in Jan 2003
    Toyota Tundra Jan 2004 23.7% increase over Jan 2003
    GM F/S trucks Jan 2004 15% increase over Jan 2003
    Ford F series Jan 2004 9.6% increase over Jan 2003
    Dodge Ram Jan 2004 1 % increase over Jan 2003

    This probably means that Ford loss market share in Jan 2004, although how much? who knows.

    What is obvious from these numbers is the F/S segment grew in Jan 2004.

    Make any other assumptions you want.
  • keaneckeanec Member Posts: 349
    Ford chose to use a different calculation than the rest of the companies. If you modify their numbers to match Ford's calculations, then Chevy was up 13.5%, Dodge 4.74%, Sierra 21.2% and Toyota 28.6%
  • haironghairong Member Posts: 153
    I like the way you skew the fact to support your argument. The new F150 caused E-van increase? Of course not. It's the reason for the F-series increase? Yes, of course.

    What you call assumption, I say obvious. Let's use common sense here:
    1) 2 out of 3 F150 factories produce the new F150 (at full speed), the other one, '04 heritage model;
    2) dumping of the '03 F150 started in Sep. 03, it had been going on for 5 months before Jan. 04.
    3) HD F-series is about 40% of the total, and pretty steady, likely not the reason for double digit increase 5 months in a row.
    My conclusion: Unit wise in Jan. 04, '04 F150 > '04 heritage > '03 F150. ANT may get you some hard number. I will also ask around.

    If you insist on calling it an assumption, fine. I would say my "assumption" is about 95% correct, the other 5% being HD F-series had significant increase. Do you want to bet that my "assumpiton" is wrong?

    PS: you number on December F-series sales should be reversed, it's 84,657 for 12/03 and 84,278 for 12/01. So, yes, it is a new all time record against an old all time record.

    PPS: regarding total full size PU sale, I already posted it yesterday. Since it did not fit this topic, I posted in another thread,
    hairong "How long before the big 3 lose the truck market?" Feb 3, 2004 4:00pm
    with a title, Everybody's happy.
  • keaneckeanec Member Posts: 349
    You're not getting any of my point. Chevy/GMC had a much bigger increase and didn't have any Brand new hot model to sell. The f-150 reference to the econoline was a joke; although I was making a point that the econoline is still the same old econoline but it increased even more than the F-150.

    The whole market for full sized trucks increased but Ford was the 2nd worst all all the full sized manufacturers. No assumptions there.

    So if you take your assumption as fact (that is fine by me) the new F-150 might have increased the sales of the F series, but not as much as the competition, and in that sense, the new F-150 isn't yet the success you are making it out to be. That is not saying that it won't become a success going forward, Ford seems to be stuck in a small rut right now, though, and that might be hindering the F150 also. Things can and do change, so we will see if it is a positive and negative one for Ford going forward.

    By the way, Edmunds has a new F-150 as a long term tester and so far it is a mixed review not looking to good. That too can change over the course of the next year or two. Especially since they are also getting a similiar Titan as a long-term tester to compare to! Maybe the F-150 will rise way above the Titan, maybe not. :-)
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
    include everything from a regular cab 2003 handshaker to the f-650/750 super crewzer.

    f150 retail sales by itself are usually about 45% of the total.

    i cant say for ford as a whole, but we have sold more f250s and f350s in the last few months than any other time in the past.
  • haironghairong Member Posts: 153
    bowke, bowke, I asked you for some hard number on Nissan, look what you give me: some bogus Ford number.

    1) F-series is from F150 to F550, 650/750 are not included. Ford calls them Heavy Trucks and count them separately.
    2) In 2003, Ford sold 845,586 F-series, 350,320 of them were F250-F550, good for 41%. In other words, F150 accounts for 59%, not 45%.
    3) Heavy Trucks (F650/750s) sales were 976 in 12/03 and 839 in 01/04. If Nissan were to have commercial trucks in NA market, these number would have had significant contribution to Titan sales (trying vainly to be on topic). But for F-series, they barely even register.

    You said you are also a Ford dealer, you really should have known better. Now where is the Nissan number.
  • haironghairong Member Posts: 153
    keanec,

    From "Don't forget the record month for f-series includes, all the 2003s F-150s that have been heavily discounted, all the heritage models, and most importantly F-250, and f-350's",
    to "You are making assumptions...We know exactly what Nissan sold, but we don't know what the new F-150 sold",
    to "the new F-150 might have increased the sales of the F series",

    I am glad I convinced you that the new F150 did increased the sales of the F-series. Common sense always win out. Actually Ford sold over 26k of new F150 in January, about 8k of the old ones (03&04 models), so there you go.

    "The whole market for full sized trucks increased but Ford was the 2nd worst all all the full sized manufacturers. No assumptions there."

    There you go again. Trying to skew the fact in your favor. If I may, let me try to spin it in Ford's favor.

    1) For the past two years, GM monthly market share have fluctuated anywhere from 26% to 32%, a direct result of their different incentive level. So their increase really did not surprise me. OTOH, Ford market share have been on steady decline, sad but worked in my favor for this case.

    2) Ford, Nissan and Toyota all benefited greatly from their new products. But since their base number were so different, 56k, 0 and 6k respectively, the percentage number are all over the place. If you look at unit increase, at 5428, 4035 and 1500 respectively, Ford may have made more profit on the increase alone than
    Nissan made on all Titan sales in January. How's that for a spin.

    3) Percentage wise, Titan's number is out of the universe. But, even if they only sold 1 Titan in Jan., the number is still out of the universe. That's why I asked bowke for Nissan's projection in the first place.

    Like I said, everybody is happy. They should.
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