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Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ?

jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
edited March 2014 in Toyota
As there has been many comparisons over on the normal Prius board about the Prius vs. The Civic Hybrid/Corolla/Camry, I felt a need to put a specific board just for that purpose. So, here's the board! Compare the Prius to whatever car you feel is a reasonable match money wise or size wise.
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Comments

  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    2004 Prius base MSRP of $19,995 includes:

    • CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission)
    • Automatic Climate-Control with Electric A/C
    • Anti-Lock Brakes
    • Traction-Control
    • Cruise-Control
    • Power & Heated mirrors
    • Power windows
    • Power door locks
    • AM/FM/CD with 6 speakers
    • Keyless-Entry remotes
    • Cast Aluminum Alloy rims
    • Tilt steering with audio/climate controls
    • 60/40 Split-folding rear seat
    • Multi-Display with trip computer
    • Rear Defroster
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    anybody have a good comparison for the Prius? I know there are many, from the Toyota Prius 2004+ board.
  • veggieburgerveggieburger Member Posts: 11
    In deciding which car to buy or which car is better you have to decide what the criteria are. There is no 1 set that is going to satisfy everyone - that's quite reasonable.

    Possible criteria items are:
    1. MPG
    2. Emissions (ground-level or earth-warming)
    3. Acceleration ( 0-60 etc)
    4. PRICE! (MSRP, TMV price)
    5. Total cost of ownership
    6. Equipment (sunroof, automatic windows etc)
    7. Safety features and performance data
    etc
    etc

    Some things are going to be valued as nothing to some folks who don't care about that item - no use trying to change their views through insults.
  • veggieburgerveggieburger Member Posts: 11
    Edmunds says that the total cost, measured in $/mile, is very close between Prius and Corolla.

    So, is Edmunds right? Every other evaluation I saw said the Prius costs more and you'll never make up the difference through the fuel efficiency savings. We'll need to "run the numbers" and check their calculations, data and assumptions.

    Personally, I'm not sure which to go with (never mind that it's hard to actually get one's hands on a 2004 prius since they're selling so well). I hate dealing with car problems and I'd hate to deal with fixing a 2004 prius since most mechanics, including toyota dealships, would not be experienced with fixing Prius-like cars.

    Corolla or Civic is much safer bet - plus it seems like the difference in MPG may not be much. I, and a lot of other potential buyers, do not drive long enough commutes to where the difference in MPG or gallons saved would actually be accomplishing much.

    We could buy it "to make a statement" but it would be silly if my statement is saying I'm saving 1 gallon per month buy buying a hybrid vs a regular ICE car.
  • veggieburgerveggieburger Member Posts: 11
    We noticed on the other forum(s) that no one was comparing the 2004 prius to the civic hybrid - from the matter of alternative purchase vehicles at least. Now, besides the obvious answer of "because the Prius is so much better" is there more explicit explanations of this?

    Since I currently like my Integra hatchback, I could deal with the low entry trunk openings of the civic or corolla but the fact that the seats do not fold in the civic hybrid is a non-starter for me. Darn!!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Corolla or Civic is much safer bet

    It's nothing but a bet though... since no data is available about the 2004 Prius yet, which is a completely new frame & body design.

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___An 04 Corolla LE w/ the following can be purchased for $14,900.

    * 4 Speed Automatic (ECT) Electronically Controlled Transmission
    * A/C - mechanical
    * Anti-Lock brakes
    * (DRL’s) Day Time Running Lights
    * Cruise Control
    * Power Mirrors
    * Driver’s Side Seat Height Adjuster
    * Power Windows
    * Power Door Locks
    * AM/FM CD w/ 6 speakers
    * Keyless Entry Remotes
    * Cast Aluminum Alloy rims
    * Tilt Steering
    * 60/40 Split-Fold down Rear Seat
    * Integrated display including speedometer, tachometer, outside temperature …
    * Rear Defrost

    Safety

    NHTSA:
     
    Front Driver and Passenger – Frontal Impact: 5 stars
    Front Seat/Rear Seat – Side Impact: 4 stars
    Rollover Resistance: 4 Stars

    IIHS: The highest rating of (G) - Good all the way across.

    ___Who knows what the 04 Prius will rate but hopefully it will be better then the NHTSA’s 02-03 Prius tests with 3, 4, 3, 3, 4 ratings … Although there is a bet that it has improved, the 04’s crash worthiness was considered in its design and should rate at least 4 and possibly 5 stars across the board.

    ___As for the Honda Civic Hybrid, it is truly outclassed in this game. It had the edge against the 01-03 Prius but not the 04 given it still costs more in a comparable trim. The 01 – 03 Prius wasn’t close against the 03/04 Corolla either but the 04 is a comparable vehicle with its greater size and closer to std. economy class power IMHO.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___An 04 Toyota Camry LE w/ the following can be purchased for $17,900.

    * 4 Speed Automatic (ECT) Electronically Controlled Transmission
    * A/C - mechanical
    * Anti-Lock brakes
    * (DRL’s) Day Time Running Lights
    * Cruise Control
    * Power Mirrors
    * Driver’s Side Seat Height Adjuster and Lumbar support
    * Power Windows
    * Power Door Locks
    * AM/FM CD w/ 6 speakers
    * Keyless Entry Remotes
    * Tilt Steering
    * 60/40 Split-Fold down Rear Seat
    * Integrated display including speedometer, tachometer, outside temperature …
    * Rear Defrost

    Safety

    NHTSA (2003 Camry):
     
    Front Driver and Passenger – Frontal Impact: 5/4 stars
    Front Seat/Rear Seat – Side Impact: 3/5 stars
    Rollover Resistance: 4 Stars

    IIHS: The highest rating of (G) - Good all the way across except for an (A) – Average for Leg/Foot – Right side.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___An 04 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ the following can be purchased for ~ $19,700.

    * CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission)
    * Automatic Climate-Control with Electric A/C
    * Anti-Lock brakes
    * Cruise Control
    * Power Mirrors
    * Driver’s Side Seat Height Adjuster
    * Power Windows
    * Power Door Locks
    * AM/FM CD w/ 4 speakers - 120 W
    * Tilt Steering
    * 60/40 Split-Fold down Rear Seat
    * Integrated multi-display including speedometer, tachometer, outside temperature, charge/assist, instantaneous FCD …
    * Rear Defrost

    Safety

    NHTSA:
     
    Front Driver and Passenger – Frontal Impact: 5/5 stars
    Front Seat/Rear Seat – Side Impact: 5/4 stars
    Rollover Resistance: 4 Stars

    IIHS (2001 – 2004 Civic’s): The highest rating of (G) - Good all the way across.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • veggieburgerveggieburger Member Posts: 11
    Since the Corolla is 3/4 the price of a base Prius it's safe to say that if you want fuel economy and a "decently equiped" car but don't care so much about the techno features then it's hard-pressed to say the Prius is a better car because (best guess for now) at worst it gives 10% better and best it gives 40%(!) better than the corolla w/auto.

    40% better is pretty good, I have to admit.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___Here are the 0 to 60 mph times …

    03 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ CVT:_______13.5 seconds - Consumer Reports/Motor Trend
    04 Toyota Prius w/ CVT:____________10.2 seconds - Auto Week
    03 Toyota Corolla w/ Auto___________9.8 seconds - Consumer Reports
    03 Toyota Camry LE w/ Auto:________9.5 seconds - Motor Trend

    ___Here are some 60 to 0 mph baking distances:

    04 Toyota Prius w/ CVT:____________142 Feet - Motor Week
    03 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ CVT:_______133 feet - Consumer Reports/Motor Trend
    03 Toyota Corolla w/ Auto___________128 Feet - Motor Trend
    03 Toyota Camry LE w/ Auto:________128 feet - Motor Week

    ___Interior noise levels at 70 mph:

    04 Toyota Prius w/ CVT:____________???
    03 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ CVT:_______73 dB(A) - Car and Driver
    03 Toyota Camry LE w/ MANUAL?:___73 dB(A) - Car and Driver
    03 Toyota Corolla w/ Auto___________70 dB(A) - Car and Driver

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • veggieburgerveggieburger Member Posts: 11
    If the primary goal of a prius/hybrid buyer is to reduce fuel consumption, reduce emissions etc then the best advice for a non-rich person would be to buy a Toyota Echo (or similar car). The Echo has even better MPG than the corolla and as exel mentioned previously, with good driving habits, tire pressure etc you can do better than the EPA ratings for MPG.

    It seems obvious to me that hybrids are not a giant leap in solving our fuel burning problems. We need folks to drive more fuel efficient cars, even if that means buying a medium size SUV instead of a huge SUV.

    Recently one (or 2) of the American car companies said they'd be coming out engines that shut off half the engine when the power is not needed. Since many of the cars on the road consume so much gas (compared to the prius/civic) the fuel saved from these types of engines would far out-save the current hybrid offerings. Fortunately, they can possibly combine both types of engines.
  • veggieburgerveggieburger Member Posts: 11
    xcel,

    I'd have to agree with you that the civic hybrid is truly outclassed by the 2004 prius. I suspect honda may have to make some changes or reduce the price in about a year or so in order to compete. Until then the under-supply of 2004 prius will probably keep the civic hybrid selling to those who really want a hybrid immediately.

    I'm sure it's too early now to see the effect of 2004 prius on civc hybrid sales but have you heard anything about whether the civic hybrid is making the EPA ratings of 47-48 MPG?
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___Pounds of Smog-Forming pollution per 15,000 miles driven:

    03 Honda Civic Hybrid w/ CVT:_______12.3 – 12.9
    04 Toyota Prius w/ CVT:____________02.8 – 04.1
    03 Toyota Corolla w/ Auto___________12.3 – 12.9
    03 Toyota Camry LE w/ Auto:________05.3 – 06.3

    ___Greenhouse gas or CO2 release is directly related to the gallons of fuel burned per miles driven.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • mikusmikus Member Posts: 109
    If I worked in Honda marketing department, I would not advertize Civic Hybrid a as hybrid car. I would say something like "conventional car improved according to 21-rd century demands" ;-) Because IMA is just an assist system. It does not fundamentally change the way the engine or transmission works. Yes, it has batteries and motor-generator, but these things works totally transparent for the gas engine, transmission or a driver.

    If battery or electric motor failed in IMA, Honda would drive like a normal car, but without additional 13-hp assist from electric motor. It still would be able to start, because as far as I know it has a conventional starter. And it would drive normally, because it has totally conventional 5-speed manual transmission or CVT.

    The main idea in Honda's approach is (1) to lower fuel consumtion in all driving modes by using smaller lean-burn engine. And to compensate for the lack of torque and power it uses (2) electric motor during hard acceleration (ergo Integrated Motor ASSIST).

    Prius is totally new look on how a car should be built. Its smart transmission works only because of the way gas engine and two electric motor-generators interact with each other, you cannot just pull one or other part from Prius -- it just would fall apart. And looking at the torque flow and energy flow schemes I tend to think, that Prius would not be driveable if even one of these motor-generator failed. But this innovative approach gives Prius better mileage and better (almost zero) emissions in city driving.

    I would compare Prius with space Shuttle, which should be totally bullet-proof to be used as it supposed to. But we can see what might happen, if only one small piece of Shuttle fails. On the other hand, Honda's hybrid is like the Mir station: nothing fancy, but it works and will work even in case of minor fails in the electric part of the hybrid system.

    Anyway, Civic hybrid does not deliver as much as Prius: its economy is worse and its emissions worse either, especially in the city driving, because Civic hybrid cannot drive with its gasoline engine shut off. Again, read the name: ASSIST. Also, Honda makes other cars, like Civic HX, which have fuel economy almost as good as its Civic hybrid. So, what's the point? Honda was able to pull 60-something mpg on Insight, but it was because of ultralight aluminum body, 0.25 drag coefficient, and only two seats. One can see, that Honda technology does not scale up well. Toyota managed to get close to Insight with the car almost twice larger and with conventional steel body.

    So, my verdict is that Prius is more of "21-century space technology", and Civic hybrid is "steam engine with computer". If you believe in technology, choose Prius. If you want 100%-bulletproof solution, choose Civic Hybrid (better choose Insight then).
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Veggieburger:

    ___I haven’t followed the Honda Civic Hybrid at all unfortunately but I know many Hybrid owners (including the Civic Hybrid) are displeased with the expected fuel economy as has been mentioned many times in the other threads. I follow the Honda Insight information very carefully but unfortunately, the Honda Insight is only a 2-seater and thus cannot really be compared to the 4 vehicles listed above without some stretch.

    ___Mikus, I cannot fault you for your HCH commentary in the least. I don’t really think the HCH is a good comparison to any of the other 3 because it is totally out classed but Jchan started the thread and apparently wanted some information about it … As for the Honda’s, only the Insight 5 speed is lean burn mode capable and although its only a ULEV with the same smog forming emissions as the Corolla, it can achieve upwards of 90 + mpg when driven properly. In other words, its CO2 output is half or less of any vehicle in this comparison … and if the 04 Prius’ real world fuel economy is 45 mpg or thereabouts. Again, Greenhouse gas (CO2) is what will kill our children’s children. Smog forming emissions will kill us when we reach the point where breathing becomes difficult and we insist on living in an urban area containing high smog level’s (PHX and LA are the two biggies that I know of …).

    ___As has been stated in the other Prius threads, the 04 Prius has a great drive train for saving the planet and reducing our dependency on foreign oil but it comes at a greater cost then the gasoline it was meant to save when compared to similar vehicles depending on your particular usage. If you are an all hwy driver, the 04 Prius doesn’t come close to paying itself off vs. the 04 Corolla in terms of TCO. It also doesn’t come close in terms of comfort and luxury when compared to the Camry because of the Camry’s much higher quality suspension, braking, and optional accessory categories. As for the 04 Prius’ Green-ness, the difference between a ULEV and PZEV based Accord as just one example is just a few hundred dollars. That is far from a $2,000 - $5,000 or more price premium to own a Prius vs. a Camry or Corolla IMHO.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___And although I believe the 01-03 and now the 04 Prius to be a stellar low maintenance vehicle, when it does get into trouble, it sounds like it can be a very costly experience. Reading through the Yahoo-Hybrid-Prius groups over the last few months, there has been indication of the electric power steering going bad on more then a few 01-03 Prius’. There is also an individual near my locale with some 114,000 miles on his well cared for 01 Prius when the darn thing lost its drive train to an unknown. It cost more to fix it then the Prius is worth and Toyota still doesn’t know exactly what happened other then it stopped working and the codes output are telling them to fix a large amount of the electrical/mechanical drive train. On the 04 Prius’, there are more then a few reports of the CEL’s (Check Engine Light) appearing with no particular cause listed. Some are saying it’s the gas cap not being tight but many new automobiles can receive a CEL when the gas caps aren’t tightened properly after a fill up. I don’t know, I am simply watching the developments but still believe the Prius’ battery pack to be more bullet proof then the Honda’s various IMA systems. It is just that I don’t believe the electric HW in the 01-03 and the new 04 is nearly as bullet proof in comparison to a std. Corolla/Camry ICE given the Camry/Corolla doesn’t have the additional electric drive train in the first place.

    ___In the case of the Honda Insight’s, the IMA is beginning got show its age for those in warmer climates apparently. Battery packs are being replaced at a rate that makes me leery of owning one and Honda for one is most certainly not making light of it other then charging the ~ $4,000 to those out of warranty and replacing them for those that are still under warranty. Fortunately, most still are covered under the 8 Yr./80,000 mile Battery and most electric drive train component warranty but what happens when you are beyond that? You are plain and simply screwed.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > can be purchased for $14,900
    > can be purchased for $17,900.
    > can be purchased for ~ $19,700

    That's rather misleading information. Instead, you should list the STICKER PRICE.

    Even a 2004 Prius "can be purchased for" a lower amount now. The dealer just 10 miles from where I live is offering $500 off the sticker.

     
    > 04 Toyota Prius w/ CVT:____________142 Feet

    125 Feet is the correct value.

     
    > w/ CVT

    Since the "CVT" in Prius is totally, completely different than the one in Civic-Hybrid, it is inappropriate to label both of them the same way. In fact, they have as little in common as a manual & automatic transmission do. So please be more specific in future postings:

    "Planetary CVT" = Prius

    "Cone & Belt CVT" = Civic-Hybrid

     
    JOHN
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    you are right on there: if you are an all hwy driver, the Prius provides little benefit over a corolla or regular civic in mpg. Since I drive more hwy than city, this has been one of the main causes of my hesitation to adopt the new tech. In particular, the civic HX has been around for a decade now, with a lean-burn VTEC, and friends that have had them regularly get more than 40 mpg.

    I know from driving an '01 Prius on a regular basis (part of the fleet at the county where I work) that all I could expect in daily use is 42 or so. So, no advantage mpg-wise. I do expect the '04 to improve that figure by 6 mpg or so.

    Problem is, there is not yet a PZEV-rated corolla or civic, is there? So emissions-wise, you still have to make a choice: go for the higher mpg with worse smog-forming emissions (corolla, civic), go for the lower mpg but PZEV rating (in such cars as Nissan Sentra or Ford Focus, both low-30s mpg), or go Prius and get both for about $3-4K more.

    In the end, this will have to go beyond a dollars and cents decision for anyone willing to buy Prius. In particular, one would need to have a personal commitment to change one's lifestyle a little and pay a little extra to advance a technology that holds promise to protect the environment now and in the future.

    However, unlike many postings here at Edmunds in the past, I do not believe that with the '04 Prius you have to sacrifice anything else except for the $$ premium to purchase.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John1701a:

    > That's rather misleading information. Instead, you should list the STICKER PRICE

    ___Why should I quote sticker price when 99% of all Prius owners are paying sticker price, sticker price +, or sticker price + an option package they may or may not want? I can receive any of the 4 models above for exactly what I quoted? You need to spend some more time in the Prius Buying experience forums before you tell me about what can be purchased for what price today.

    > 125 Feet is the correct value.

    ___John, here is something for you to ponder … One, look up Motor Week’s test of the 03 Camry, 03 Corolla, and 04 Prius to see their panic stop distance numbers. Same magazine, same test procedures, and the distances listed above. They tested an 02 Camry XLE, an 03 Corolla w/ Manual, and the 04 Prius. Next ponder why would a car that weighs 2524#’s using GoodYear Integrity’s panic stop in 128 feet and an automobile using the EXACT same tires but weigh 2890 #’s stop in 128 feet? They both have very similar suspensions, similar brake HW, and probably similar weight distribution. In either case, you can tell me I am incorrect but you will have to take it up with Motor Week as they are the ones that recorded the 142 feet in the 60 to 0 panic stops of the 04 Prius vs. the 03 Corolla’s (manual) 128 and the Camry’s 118 (XLE trim however). In the case of the Camry, the XLE has better brake HW so it would be expected to stop in a shorter distance but I didn’t post the SE/XLE braking numbers of 118 feet because they do not use the same HW as the Base LE.

    > Since the "CVT" in Prius is totally, completely different than the one in Civic-Hybrid, it is inappropriate to label both of them the same way.
      
    ___Because the Honda Civic Hybrid has a CVT and you labeled it as such in the 04 Prius std. features list above. Honda, Motor Trend, Car and Driver, and Consumer Reports called the Honda Civic Hybrid w/ CVT a CVT so why shouldn’t anyone else?

    ___Nippononly, there is a PZEV rated Accord although I do not know if you can purchase one in your locale yet? The Corolla, no way unfortunately. I hope Toyota begins to see the light with their other vehicle lines since Ford is offering the Focus and Nissan a Sentra in PZEV trim as you have posted. It won’t be long before that many more automobiles will be rated PZEV or better. I will not debate the change in lifestyle vs. costs but I also see the change not being made by most drivers on the road today. If you want to reduce HC, NOx, CO, and CO2 emissions, slow down, coast when possible, and maximize a cars mileage capability most of the time instead of none of it. Unfortunately, that is a tall order and of all the cars that pass me every day, I have only seen 2 in the last 3 months that were abiding by this. A Honda Insight and of all things, a Lincoln Navigator drafting an 18 wheeler. I can explain more of this in a later post…

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    I'd like to point out that all the comments hear ignore HSD in general, they focus solely on limited data currently available on only vehicles currently available. The fact that the hybrid system now in Prius being installed in other vehicles has not been acknowledged.

    What about a Corolla with HSD?

    In the short-term, higher prices are a very normal part of new technology rollout. When it becomes more common, prices drop. That seems to be overlooked a lot. So discussions here are limited to those making the purchase decision now, not later.

    JOHN
  • mikusmikus Member Posts: 109
    <john1701a>
    Since the "CVT" in Prius is totally, completely different than the one in Civic-Hybrid, it is inappropriate to label both of them the same way. In fact, they have as little in common as a manual & automatic transmission do.
    </john1701a>

    I personally got used to use the term "CVT" only in regards to classic van Doorne scheme. But recently other types of CVT emerged, like toroidal type (for example, Nissan Extroid). Should not we just embrace the "CVT" as a term more generic, than "van Doorne cone-and-belt setup"? On the other hand, in all "normal" cars the transmission comes after the engine and after some type of clutch (plate-type or hydraulic converter, whatever). Which means, that you can change the type of clutch or the type of transmission (manual, automatic, van Doorne, toroidal, etc) without changing the way a car behaves. But in the case of Prius you cannot just pull out its planetary gearset and stick something else like classic manual gearbox -- it simply will not work. So, in case of Prius planetary gearset is not a transmission in traditional sense. It is part of something bigger. Vice versa, to put Prius' transmission on other car one would have to use two motor-generators as well, and a battery to feed them. So, it is not just a transmission, it is a whole complex of hybrid setup, when the equation has only one solution. Whatever, normal people do not care about this stuff. Just tell them the car has CVT ;)
  • mikusmikus Member Posts: 109
    Well, does someone have any information, aside of pure theoretical verdicts made solely by looking on the Prius electric and mechanical scheme, how the car would behave if battery, or mg1 or mg2 would fail? I can tell right now that Civic Hybrid would still be able to start and drive like normal car if its motor-generator or battery failed. But I am not sure at all about Prius' reliability in that sense. If mg1 went out, who would rotate sun gear to start the engine? If mg2 went out, how the car would start moving at all (well, it still can be moved by a gas engine, but with about 1700 rpm it would be hard). Do not forget that mg1 also should be rotated to keep engine rpms in proper range, and mg2 adds about 30% of torque and also charges the battery.

    Prius does not seem to have any reserving of the main propulsion system and all devices must be 100% functioning for Prius to move. John, I've read your logs on your web site, and 3 years in Minnesota is exciting experience. But the simple fact is, that you have not had any failures! What would happed, if one small piece of this machinery fails? The car will stop, I guess. Up to this time the only piece of car hardware which was done by space industry reliability standards was an airbag. Now a whole car becomes a space Shuttle. Hope that the Japanese attached the heat-protection tiles better.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John1701a:

    ___If only Toyota would have installed the HSD in a Camry/Corolla last year … They have had ~ 4 to 7 years to do so, right? Since Toyota didn&#146;t, we can discuss what can be purchased today since unfortunately that is all that is available &#147;today&#148;.

    ___Here is a neat thought. What if the Camry was available with a HSD and cost ~ the same as the 04 Prius? You know, in XLE trim with better stopping power, better ride, larger size, more luxurious features, and lower cost? Would you have purchased the Camry instead? I would have if it received better hwy mileage then what I am receiving with my Corolla, guaranteed. Probably only an LE trim however. Then again, what if Toyota placed an HSD into the Corolla w/ a hatchback and was AT LEAST $3,000 less expensive then the 04 Prius? Same conclusion … Toyota didn&#146;t so what&#146;s the point in discussing it?

    ___Not that I am in any way right but I see a money grab of sorts by Toyota with the 04 Prius. Not that this is a bad thing given that is the way Capitalism works and helps defray the HSD&#146;s development cost but the Prius uses mostly off the shelf, low end brake and suspension HW yet costs a large premium over and above that of the economy or other cars it is competing with? You and I have had the same back and forth in the past … Instead of a completely new platform, why didn&#146;t they simply place the HSD in the recently redesigned Corolla? It would have saved the development costs of the Prius line (not the HSD of course) and it would have been made available to hundreds of thousands instead of 36 to 40,000 as is the case with the 04 Prius today. Since Toyota sold every 01-03 Prius they made, could they not have done the same with every 03/04 Corolla w/ an HSD? Does the HSD actually cost that much more then a std. ICE? If it does, it may never make economic sense for a hwy driver in particular. Old news I know but I still don&#146;t see the payoffs. All the discussion of HSD HW prices coming down is beginning to sound like bunk given the Prius&#146; in some form or another has been out for almost 7 years. The battery packs are still outrageously expensive for the 01-03 and the 04. Toyota even has its own marketing reps spouting the company line on this future cost savings and all one has to do is go to the service counter of their local Toyota dealer and ask what it costs to replace the packs in an 01-03 or the 04. There is no savings but there most certainly is a smoke screen. I am concerned that we will never see the promised savings that many including Toyota have promised. I can only hope Toyota will make all their automobiles ULEV/ULEV-II or even better, PZEV given the additional $150 to $300 per vehicle but they haven&#146;t done that or appear to be heading that way in the very near future from what I have read. We have known about the terms ULEV, ULEV-II, SULEV, PZEV, and ZEV for over 3 + years now and the only thing Toyota has offered anyone here in the sates with this capability is the Prius. Again, I am certainly glad Toyota is pushing the Fuel Economy/Emission envelope and offering a technology that can save the world of some of its short term ills but are they doing it in such a fashion to line their pockets or to improve the world as a whole? I guess I am glad they are at least offering something to some given the 0 offered by anyone else at this point in time. Well maybe Honda with the Insight 5 Speed maybe but only if purchased used does it make any financial sense either. It is a good thing American&#146;s and probably everyone else thinks as a group with their passion rather then with their pocket books …

    ___On a more political note, I believe it is Japan that imports ~ 50% of their oil from the Middle East, Europe ~ 40%, and here in US, ~ 12%. I am speaking of Middle East supplies only. No matter the implications, the Middle East is a strategic area to be guarded because it doesn&#146;t matter where you get the oil from, it only matters that the total supply meets demand. With a small drop in supply from anywhere, the price goes up and economies of the world suffer the consequences. The US is the only country looking over the Middle East for this reason (some other ugly other reasons as well that are far less economic but I won&#146;t get into those) and with that, we as a nation will suffer the consequences of this guarding action for a very long time … or at least until the problem is dealt with abruptly. With that, I still don&#146;t see people I know; work with, or read about purchasing economical engines when given the choice in a particular model of automobile. Give me that fire breathing V8 or 6 instead of the 4 even though they will all perform their duties just as well to most consumers. CAFE is a government forced ruling but you cannot stop Joe Q. Public from doing what he does best … Think of the new Dodge commercial on the TV with the father teaching his 2 year old to say the word &#147;HEMI&#148;. Now there is a sound footing to base our future on, don&#146;t you think?

    ___Sorry for the semi-OT BS I just spewed …

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Just tell them the car has CVT.

    Yup! That's great for general publicity.

    However, for this particular topic thread where every factor of every component will end up being discussed, we need to be a bit more specific. Otherwise, you could actually group both automatic & manual into a single category called "with gears".

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John1701a:

    ___As for the CVT, the Honda Civic Hybrid does use a &#147;Continuously Variable&#148; transmission with an almost infinite number of gear ratios irregardless if it uses the Belt and Cone setup or the Prius&#146; planetary gear set. The same cannot be said of an Automatic or Manual and for most; an automatic really doesn&#146;t make much of a difference, does it? A manual on the other hand is a SOB in stop and go traffic in particular as anyone that owns one can attest …

    ___On an Insight or HCH, the manual is more economical as it is on everything else. In the case of the 01-03 or 04 Prius, who knows because no one has a manual trimmed Prius to compare against the CVT based counterpart? If the Prius with a manual was more economical, would you drive it? Would most drive it? The Prius is definitely not a sports car but the manual might just give better hwy mileage, lower emissions even further (CO2 in particular), and definitely give better 0 to 60 times. You make the call.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    to classify types of transmissions, it would be just as accurate to say Prius has no transmission at all. It is closer to this than to a conventional CVT. The electric motor is what transmits the power from the ICE to the wheels. It is essentially the "transmission" in this case - it can turn at differential rates (this is the layman's explanation - can you tell?). If you removed it, the car could not run. I do know you are not supposed to run Prius out of gas - in other words you are not supposed to run it even for short distances at low speeds on the electric alone.

    wayne: we do have the PZEV Camry here now - have had it for almost a year in fact. It is really too bad they have not brought out a PZEV corolla, but I think folks here have hit it on the head: too much competition for Toyota's own Prius, given that corolla's mileage is already in the high 30s. BTW, the old SULEV and ULEV are gone now, but there is a ULEV-II and a LEV-II which have taken their place. Of course, those are all California and CA states ratings (NY, MA, ME, VT). The new federal system is a mess: ULEV-II corresponds to the federal rating tier 2-bin 5 I think.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Mikus:

    ___Even though those links have probably been passed around the Hybrid community more then a few times, it was the first time I have read the pages myself. I have read portions of the same from any number of forum members including John1701a in any number of Hybrid forums but couldn&#146;t put the whole thing together … Even now I still only understand 30 to 40% of what was presented but I have got to hand it to whomever came up with that multi-powered gear set - planetary gear set arrangement. They did a heck of a job for the various modes the Prius is driven through. MG1, MG2, and the ICE all work in concert depending on the Prius&#146; drive mode/demand at any given instant. It sounds as if the Author&#146;s thought&#146;s on even better efficiency were incorporated into the 04 Prius (EV only mode on initial movement or even colder temps for longer periods) but the unity of the whole thing still has me pretty amazed.

    ___I thought the Prius engine on a dynamometer? over at Argonne Lab&#146;s was kind of cute as well. Reverse engineering a Japanese device to see what it is good for is money well spent in my book instead of the Japanese reverse engineering what the US used to design and build. It appears like a simple Atkinson cycle so not much was garnered but the efficiency still speaks for itself …

    ___I still have great hopes for the worlds automobile technology advances given the Ford seed money to various US University&#146;s working on the Explorer efficiency design challenges and/or any number of similar projects. Some of these include diesel/Hybrid power trains and that University of TX? Turbine style Star/Ring power mechanism but I am still perplexed as to why none of these ideas are on the road and available today given all the money the US Automobile and Government has spent with literally nothing to show for it over the last 100 years.

    ___Oh well, I guess I can still wait for the Perpetual Motion or Cold Fusion experiments to bare fruit. I have been waiting for 20 + odd years for them as well and will probably be too old to enjoy these whiz bang non-starter/non-achievements. After all is said and done, at least the Prius is on the road today … It is still darn expensive for the efficiencies gained however.

    ___Nippononly, I know. Our 03 MDX is a ULEV-II w/ the older ULEV going out with the 02&#146;s. Honda added another CAT and opened up the intake and exhaust to achieve even better results. It resulted in a very small amount of emissions: 5.3 &#150; 6.3 #&#146;s of Smog-Forming pollution per 15,000 miles outside of California and 2.8 &#150; 4.1 if purchased/driven within … and VT., NY., MA, ME. etc. Not bad for a 4500 # SUV and I have squeezed over 30 mpg on long hwy stretches more then once out of the beast just to limit its CO2 production. Or was it just to save the cost in fuel? I forget ;)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > if someone really understands why a manual transmission
    > is not offered I would appreciate and explanation

    A simple explanation is that the system redirects power too often and too quickly for any human to ever keep up with.

    Could you handle shifting anywhere from 10 to 30 times per minute the entire time you drive?

    That's what HSD does. Slower responses means lower efficiency. How much of a MPG sacrifice would you be willing to give up for the option of a by-wire simulated manual?

    JOHN
  • mikusmikus Member Posts: 109
    <midnightcowboy>
    Okay so the references show a power split device. This is a simple engineering concept that has nothing to do with the transmission. It could just as well be an automatic transmission or a manual transmission.
    </midnightcowboy>

    If one can understand "simple engineering concept" of the power split device, the reason for using solely this type of transmission should be quite clean. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but try to read this time.

    <midnightcowboy>
    I have read the Prius descriptions and understand them. But I will ask again why can't there be other transmissions than CVT ? CVT does provide an easy way to keep an engine at peak torque curve, but not everyone wants a CVT transmission. It is cool new technology and it is what Toyota chose to implement in their HSD offering in the Prius.
    </midnightcowboy>

    In the ideal world transmission itself is totally redundant piece of hardware. It was invented only because classic gas engine is a piece of junk from the physical point of view: it should always be running, it has very limited usable rpm limits and its torque curve is nothing to be fond of. Electric cars work without gearboxes and clutches, and this is as close to the perfect world as you can get.Electric motor has the perfect torque curve with the maximum torque at zero rpm. And electric motor does not need to rotate when car stands still. The only problem is that you need to get this electricity from somewhere.

    So the setup used on Prius is the way to combine the kinetic energy from the gas engine and electric energy from the battery. Well, they could just use a huge generator with the gas engine and feed the electricity to the electric engine, but they would lose more energy. Their solution has quite simple mechanic scheme - only one constantly meshed gearset, no clutches, no shifts. So what is not to like? Prius does not have transmission in its classic sense as a separate device. The "energy transmission process" is spread through the whole HSD system, it cannot be broken apart, it is a whole thing. So the "HSD" is not just some marketing bs, it is indeed what it is called: a sinergy.
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I am now literally out of the entry level luxury shopping game (less entry level lux to look at for me) and looking at one of the following:
    Toyota Prius
    Honda Civic Hybrid
    Toyota Camry
    Honda CR-V
    Infiniti I35
    Acura TSX
    Saab 9-3
    Honda Accord
    Toyota RAV4
    Volvo S40
    So, which one should I go for? Each one is attracting me, but I can't buy all of them! Whether I should go for the Prius, since I'm going to get a long commute, or the Volvo for prestige (I got a raise!) or the CR-V for the cargo room, I don't know which one I should take a closer look at and which ones I should not even glance back at.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Anyway the HSD system could still exist and connect to
    > the wheels via a conventional automatic transmission
    > or a manual shift transmission.

    Why in the world would you want to that extra weight and additional cost?

    Explain what your requirements are.

    What do you want the extra transmission to accomplish?

    JOHN
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Member Posts: 200
    for Corolla, and Camry. I own a 1990 Corolla, My G friend 2002 Corolla

    Verdict

    Corolla-Tacky cheap

    Camry-Smooth Quite

    Camry any time
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Mbukukanyau:

    ___You must have missed the 03/04 redesign. I won&#146;t say that the new Corolla rides anything like a Camry because it isn&#146;t even close but the 04 Prius didn&#146;t improve upon the 03/04 Corolla in that regard either. They went cheap and tuned what they could out of the rear torsion beam setup. It&#146;s junk but they saved money in production. The 02-04 Camry is truly a step above given its superior suspension and braking HW and there isn&#146;t a darn thing any 04 Echo, 04 Corolla, or 04 Prius owner can do about it.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I thought the purpose of the CVT was to maintain the
    > engine at the peak torque curve.

    Tada! You just identified a big difference between the 2 types of CVT.

    CONE & BELT adjust to control the torque, just like you'd expect.

    PLANETARY redirects the torque, which is a fundamental difference that has overlooked when discussion "transmissions".

     
    > Use to a manual gave you better acceleration and better mileage.

    Maximum torque and maximum efficiency are already provided by HSD. There's no way a manual interface could do any better. If you believe that isn't true, explain. What propulsion component would you like to manipulate?

     
    > It was my understanding the CVT could not handle high horsepower

    That is correct. CONE & BELT would slip when the demand was too high. That's not the case for PLANETARY.

    Now are you beginning to see why I don't want to identify the 2 types generically as just "CVT"?

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John1701a:

    ___They both perform the same function of making the car go and both do it smoothly without driver interaction so why do you insist on calling one a CVT and another a something else CVT. Most everyone else calls both of them CVT&#146;s?

    ___As for maximum&#146;s, the Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a manual knocked hell out of the 01-03 Prius in performance yet the 04 is using the same basic CVT as the 01-03. I don&#146;t think Toyota would have changed much, do you?

    ___We have the following data from an 02 Prius w/ CVT, an 03 HCH w/ CVT, and an 03 HCH w/ a Manual to compare against one another. I just don&#146;t see that much difference in average mpg between the 2 CVT&#146;s and the Manual (48.5 vs. 47.5 vs. 48.5) nor enough of a performance difference between the 2 CVT&#146;s to say the Prius couldn&#146;t do very well with a manual? I can see where some neat ideas are at work for transferring torque depending on the mode the Prius is in with its CVT but overall, I don&#146;t believe it adds much over and above the efficiency of a manual given the far superior performance of a manual equipped HCH against a CVT equipped 02 Prius/03 HCH as shown below. Toyota could install a manual if they wanted but they would have to rework the HSD to do so. The CVT w/ multiple power input interactions is the path they took so we cannot do anything about that now of course.

    02 Prius w/ CVT____52/45 - 12.7 seconds 0 to 60
    03 HCH w/ CVT____48/47 - 13.5 seconds 0 to 60
    03 HCH w/ Manual__46/51 - 10.9 seconds 0 to 60

    ___I am sure this has been discussed in the past but it&#146;s a nice refresher none the less …

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • mikusmikus Member Posts: 109
    cowboy, if you want to ADD manual or whatever any other transmission to HSD, you can do it, of course. You can even benefit from it, for example for easier start from standstill, where a lot of torque needed. Well, Toyota already put huge electic motor (what is it? 67hp against 13hp for Insight) to tackle with this problem. You can put a smaller electric motor and add a gearbox (manual or CVT) after it, but you would ruin the whole beauty of this setup, which is mechanically quite simple. Not saying that it will be huge and heavy.

    Why would not you get a Civic Hybrid? You would be able to row gears on your own, and you would know how your car works.

    > I guess for me a "manual transmission" is a "must" or a "need" not a "want".

    Would you like to have a fake horse in front of your car just because it is a proper way to pull a cart -- by a horse? No? Why do you want manual then? Manual transmission is just a technological burp meant to overcome gas engine imperfection. The only reason why you might need manual is to be sure that at any taken moment you can easily and precisely control the torque on the wheels merely by moving your foot despite all other variables involved. For sports driving, for example. Well, I do not think that adding manual gearbox to HSD would help you. The very moment you allowed computer to control engine rpms, battery charge process, power and the torque, you lost the immediate and predictable reaction of a car with manual transmission. Well, tanstaafl.
  • mikusmikus Member Posts: 109
    > I take it Mikus your are an automatic man.

    You cannot be more wrong. I own a Gen4 Camry with 3.0 V6 and (surprise!) manual 5-speed box. Toyota made only about 5% of these cars from the total production. This is a pure sleeper car: gray color, no fancy aluminum wheels. It now drives somewhat better with Tokico shocks and larger rear stabilizer. It has some zip and I like to feel 190 hp under my foot and it feels natural to apply exactly that amount of power that I want to. But you cannot stop progress. The problem with classic automatic is that it can shift up or down in the moment when you do not need it, say while you pass the icy turn. Which will put you into nice slide-and-twist dance. With manual you can control the torque on the wheels. Well, with CVT you can control the torque much better that with regular automatic, so CVT gives you relatively good control over the power, and better mileage. And Prius setup is a very logical one. So instead of having fun accelerating and sliding in turns, someone could have fun getting better mpg ;)
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > the Honda Civic Hybrid w/ a manual knocked hell out of
    > the 01-03 Prius in performance yet the 04 is using the
    > same basic CVT as the 01-03.

    You really need to step back and look at the big picture...

    HCH manual has only a single advantage over Prius, it does great with high-speed highway-only cruising. That's it. End of story.

    Classic Prius is 72% cleaner. The SULEV is drastically lower in SMOG emissions than the ULEV.

    There is also no contest when in stop & slow traffic, Classic Prius clearly does better.

    And the 2004 trumps 'em all!

     
    > I don&#146;t think Toyota would have changed much, do you?

    Hello!

    The battery-pack was reduced from 273.6 volts to 201.6 volts then stepped up via the invertor to 500 volts. That is a huge power increase while at the same time reducing the size (AND COST!) of the battery-pack by 28%. And to top that, they increased the NiMH power-density too.

    Toyota also increased the size of the thrust-motor from 33kW to 50kW. That's a very significant muscle improvement.

    They also increased the engine 500 RPM and the generator-motor 4000 RPM.

    These are major improvements, all without a price increase.

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John1701a:

    > Hello

    ___Do you have a clue as to what I am asking you? You are first telling us the Prius CVT or the HCH shouldn&#146;t be called a CVT because they are constructed differently. The rest of the world on the other hand still calls both CVT&#146;s. They both provide the end user a smooth automatic and both appear to be less efficient then the Manual in both highway mileage and acceleration. I asked you if the 04 Prius&#146; CVT has changed significantly from the 01-03 and then you start on the dissertation of the entire HSD? The Manual in a HCH not only improves upon hwy mileage, it is also quite a bit QUICKER then the CVT&#146;s of either platform. What if the Prius had its HSD rigged with a manual instead? Would it not have better acceleration then even the slowest of all Toyota&#146;s lineup worth comparing (Toyota Echo w/ an Automatic)? With the CVT, the 04 Prius doesn&#146;t even beat that! Would a manual equipped Prius also pollute less on the hwy with superior mileage (lower CO2 and CO/NOx/HC here) over the CVT as so equipped? From the looks of the data on 01-03 Prius vs. 03 HCH CVT vs. the 03 HCH Manual, I can almost guarantee that it would. Remember, the HCH is available as a PZEV-AT with both the CVT and the MANUAL. Both are rated as SULEV&#146;s just like the 04 Prius as well. I just cannot find any Smog-Forming emission amounts on them other then their city/hwy mileage capabilities right now.
     
    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    yes, the Civic Hybrid is less advanced, but Honda plans a hybrid Accord, CR-V, Odyssey and almost a hybrid version for every car in their model line. I read this stuff on vtec.net, which has a new Honda matrix detailing when and what they think are going to come out. They've been pretty accurate with the Accord, Element, Accord Coupe, TL and Odyssey so far.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > The rest of the world on the other hand still
    > calls both CVT&#146;s.

    Many people also call Ford Explorer a "car". That's doesn't make it correct.

     
    > They both provide the end user a smooth automatic
    > and both appear to be less efficient then the Manual

    However, the CVT in Prius ALSO supports a SECOND motor, allowing it to create electricity at the same time. I'd like to see that accomplished with the other type of CVT. Why should that additional ability be ignored by lumping it into a single category?

     
    > What if the Prius had its HSD rigged with a manual instead?

    Since there aren't any gears to shift, that would be IMPOSSIBLE. So, the only way to increase power is to increase the size of a power source. That means the engine, the motor, or the voltage. Where exactly does the "manual" part fit?

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > yes, the Civic Hybrid is less advanced

    As long as it can be competitive, who cares what technology is used.

    JOHN
  • jchan2jchan2 Member Posts: 4,956
    I think Toyota is planning to bring over the hybrid Estima. It said something in the year 2000 that they would promise an Estima Hybrid minivan for 2005.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John1701a:

    ___The rest of the world still calls both CVT&#146;s. That is the fact, not fiction …

    > However, the CVT in Prius ALSO supports a SECOND motor, allowing it to create electricity at the same time. I'd like to see that accomplished with the other type of CVT. Why should that additional ability be ignored by lumping it into a single category?

    ___To the end user, who cares? The HCH&#146;s CVT was almost as efficient as the 01-03 Prius so why would you call one different then the other because one can generate on the fly? Does the end user know this if it weren&#146;t for the screen saying so? Does it matter that it is? NO.

    > Since there aren't any gears to shift, that would be IMPOSSIBLE. So, the only way to increase power is to increase the size of a power source. That means the engine, the motor, or the voltage. Where exactly does the "manual" part fit?

    ___That is incorrect. The Manual based civic is apparently more efficient then either of the previous gen Prius or current HCH because it achieves both higher hwy mileage AND faster acceleration. In fact, it has the same hwy efficiency as the current Prius and achieves 0 to 60 almost as quick. Both the HCH and Prius use CVT&#146;s that are Automatic&#146;s. Do you know what the differences are between the Automatic in the Camry and the Automatic in the Corolla? The second question to ask is who cares what the differences are. They both achieve mobility with no user input and are seamless to the driver. How one generates electricity or not is immaterial given the much older tech Manual from the HCH achieves hwy efficiency equal to and acceleration almost equal to that of the current generation Prius because it is a manual!

    ___You seem to think the Prius receives all of its capabilities because of the CVT when in fact, the HCH manual shows up the First generation Prius&#146; CVT in acceleration and hwy efficiency. The 04 Prius uses a very similar if not an exact copy (I am guessing of course) of the 01-03 Prius&#146; CVT. Power from the ICE and battery packs can be applied in any number of ways and Toyota chose to apply the two power sources through the planetary gear set rather then a belt/cone setup with battery assist ala Honda&#146;s IMA. The end user doesn&#146;t or shouldn&#146;t care. In fact, ask. The average (most) consumers could care less how it&#146;s designed and wouldn&#146;t care or understand if you told them how it was designed. They only want a system that gets them up to hwy speed or faster, back and forth to the grocery store, or down to grandma&#146;s house with a minimum of input while achieving stellar mileage. Some might even care that they are doing so with a minimum amount of emissions as well.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > That is incorrect. The Manual based civic

    Whoa! Talking about getting off topic. I asked about the PRIUS. Where exactly does the "manual" part fit?

     
    > more efficient

    What's your point? Manuals have been that way since the beginning of time. But since they only appeal to 10% of the market here (based on actual consumer purchases), expectations for sales can't be set much higher than that.

    But since the Planetary-CVT used by HSD competes so well and appeals to 90%, there is tremendous potential.

     
    > You seem to think the Prius receives all of its
    > capabilities because of the CVT when in fact, the
    > HCH manual shows up the First generation Prius&#146;
    > CVT in acceleration and hwy efficiency.

    And you seem to forget that the SULEV versions of the Honda hybrids lose those capabilities.

    Reducing emissions sacrificies performance. If Prius was equal to the HCH manual in terms of SMOG emissions (that's ULEV), it would gain acceleration & efficiency.

     
    Are you happy now? You wanted the opportunity to share your thoughts. I hope this topic works out for you now that it's rolling. I'm going to shift focus back on the majority, those that are interested in HSD with the hopes of having it available later in the vehicle type they desire.

    JOHN
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi John1701a:

    > Where exactly does the "manual" part fit?

    ___You brought up the Manual transmission not being able to be installed in a Prius … You and I both know Toyota could do whatever they wanted.

    > Manuals have been that way since the beginning of time.

    ___And the problem with that is?
     
    > And you seem to forget that the SULEV versions of the Honda hybrids lose those capabilities.
    > Reducing emissions sacrifices performance. If Prius was equal to the HCH manual in terms of
    > SMOG emissions (that's ULEV), it would gain acceleration & efficiency.

    ___I don&#146;t think so. Look the numbers up for yourself. PZEV-AT/SULEV while achieving 45/51w/ the Manual and 47/48 w/ the CVT. Same HP and Torque according to Honda.

    > You wanted the opportunity to share your thoughts …

    ___Actually, I wanted to make sure you didn&#146;t hi-jack the thread with misnomers and misconceptions as follows:

    > CVT&#146;s aren&#146;t CVT&#146;s if they are built by Toyota …

    > How much of a MPG sacrifice would you be willing to give up for the option simulated manual …

    > Why in the world would you want to that extra weight and additional cost …

    > Maximum torque and maximum efficiency are already provided by HSD. There's no way a manual interface could do any better …

    > HCH manual has only a single advantage over Prius …

    > Many people also call Ford Explorer a "car" …

    > Since there aren't any gears to shift, that would be IMPOSSIBLE ...

    > Reducing emissions sacrifices performance …

    > And you seem to forget that the SULEV versions of the Honda hybrids lose those capabilities …

    ___What above is correct given all the empirical evidence provided?

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • mikusmikus Member Posts: 109
    Gasoline engine has low range of usable torque, cannot produce torque at zero rpm (actually, at any rpm below 1000 or so), should always be running.

    Electric engine has ideal torque distribution with maximum torque at zero rpm, it can have higher rpms if needed, it does not need time to be "started" to produce power from standstill.

    This is why electric cars do not have gearbox and clutch, and gasoline cars do. Gasoline car suck, period. With proper engine gearbox and clutch are not needed. Well, Toyota could go easy way and create diesel locomotive out of a car: drop a generator on a gas engine, and connect electric motor to the wheels. Voila! But they would lose a lot of energy during conversion process. So, they decided to use both energy types: to use electric motor at start and low speeds, where it has the highest torque and gas engine is simply trying not to stall at idle, and to use gas engine connected mechanically (not electrically!) to the wheels, where it can produce usable torque. Thus HSD. THREE main devices: gasoline engine, generator and motor work in perfect harmony with planetary gearset which (what a coincidence!) has THREE rings/gears. This solution is brilliant and looks quite natural for a hybrid. Thus you CANNOT replace this gearset with any other gearbox, it simply will not work. But you can ADD a gearbox AFTER the electric motor, thus you would introduce another set of gears, but you can put smaller electric motor.

    Well, Toyota could do that. Or it could install bigger electric motor to improve start from the stop and forget about stupid transmissions. They chose the second option, which does not introduce any other gears into HSD. And it works. So, the question is: why would someone still want to add another gearbox? Will smaller electric motor allow to save weight of the car? I am not sure, becuase of added gearbox.
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