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Toyota Prius vs. Honda Civic Hybrid v. Honda Insight v. ?
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Comments
To each his/her own on looks, but to my eye the Honda is much better looking on the inside. Both have the same cloth arm rests 'mistake' and neither one has rear A/C vents.
The Civic driving position is better becuase of the tilt/telescope wheel and height adjusting seat. The rear seat head room is much better in the Civic.
Width is better in the Prius as is rear leg room. The Civic trunk is tall, but very shallow front to back. The rear seat in the Civic is too low (almost knee in the chest) and it is a low bridge getting into the front of the Civic.
The Honda nav system is far superior. I like the Civic - a lot. BUI, it does not have stability control, xenon lights, or the key stays in the pocket lock system.
Stability control is a must for us, so even though I like the Civic hybrid better than the Prius, it was a no sale. Hopefully the leather seat 06 Prius will have a nicer interior than our 05.
But the Prius is fold down all the way through, so you can stash a surfboard in there. Anyone know how long of one you can fit?
For example, I can fit an 8' board in my 2005 Corolla after pushing the front passenger seat forward. From the looks of it, you should be able to get something even longer in the Prius.
JOHN
-juice
As far as theft protection, well, it's HARD to prevent things like you mentioned - if they know it's not going to be easily stolen and then the car is vandalized in anger, there's really nothing to do about that.
If you want "theft proof" you need to lock in into a garage in the house where you are sleeping - that's about the hardest theft to pull off.
I have heard of a company called RAVELCO which touts a theft deterrent system which has never been compromised, if you want just sheer "this car will not be stolen" protection, but even the best alarm is useless if they bring a tow truck.
To put things in perspective, check out
Now try it without ABS, EBD, ESP, EBA ..
which is an article about people who normally drove cars with these safety features, and who were than put in cars without them. While they may not have known they had them in their own cars, they noticed something was very wrong in a car that did not have them. It's not specifically about ESC and traction control but I think you can get the idea. The Volvo S70 they refer to has a more sophisticated version of ESC.
I just saw another article which says the 2006 Sonata will have "Standard ESC" for under 20k. When Hyundai which most Honda owners laugh adds more safety features than good Old Honda, one of the most auto prestigious companies you know there's something rotten in the state of Denmark/Japan!
Here are two quotes from the Insurance Institute for Safety
From
http://www.iihs.org/news/2004/iihs_news_102804.pdf
“ About half of the 28,000 fatal passenger vehicle crashes that occur each year involve a single vehicle. Equipping cars and SUVs with electronic stability control (ESC) can reduce the risk of involvement in these crashes by more than 50 percent. The effect on all single-vehicle crashes (fatal and nonfatal) is somewhat less (about 40 percent), and the effect on multiple-vehicle crashes is much less. These are the main findings of a new
Insurance Institute for Highway Safety study comparing crash rates for cars and SUVs with and without ESC ”
“ .Together these studies, including the Institute’s new one, indicate that widespread application of ESC in the vehicle fleet can be expected to afford a significant safety benefit. If all vehicles on U.S. roads had ESC, we might avoid as many as 800,000 of the 2 million or so single-vehicle crashes that occur each year. About 14,000 fatal single vehicle crashes occurred in 2003, which means there’s a potential to save more than 7,000 lives each year ”
So Honda has made a deal with the devil and traded safety for styling and the “Car of the Year” award (which is probably given to the biggest bribe anyway) .
The bottom line, is you can’t take that award into the operating room at the hospital!
Electronic skid control is very important on top heavy vehicles such as SUVs.
Electronic skid control is more beneficial on RWD cars because when you enter a turn too fast the rear end slids ut and is harder to control by the normal user. On FWD you merely skid forward with lcoked wheels instead of turning. Easier to control.
In the case of FWD skid control it is useful if a driver has inclement conditions (indecending order: snow, ice, rain) and tends to drive TOO FAST for the conditions. For 99% of FWD dreiver they will never activate electonic skid control. And of that 1% that do actiavate it, having it will only prevent an accident in 5% of the cases.
While Skid control does provide a safety balnket for drivers who drive too fast for the condition and SUV drivers in genral, it provides only a insignificant benefit for FWD cars.
The 2006 Honda Civic is an excellent car, especially the manual 6-speed Civic Si Coupe in Rallye Red!
koolkinkajou said:
"So Honda has made a deal with the devil and traded safety for styling and the “Car of the Year” award (which is probably given to the biggest bribe anyway) .
The bottom line, is you can’t take that award into the operating room at the hospital! "
What a uninformed, sour grapes statement! Honda is one of the safest cars available. If there were any truth at all in the above statement, then it would be mandatory that ALL cars had electonic skid control as a standard feature!
From Brains,
MidCow
P.S.- I never have learned to drive an automatic or I would hvae considered a Prius!
Civic won the Gold award from the IIHS for passive safety in frontal offset/side crash tests and headrest evaluations. That can't be ignored.
Fact is, indeed you might collide, but to say you'll end up in the hospital after the Civic won Gold (Prius didn't make the top 10) is very unfair to Honda.
-juice
Since people who are inclined to buy hybrids are also inclined to drive more conservatively, this lack of ESD is even less significant.
I decided what my goals were:
(1) good miles per gallon
(2) relaible
(3) maual transmission
(4) fun-to-drive ( some performance, some handling)
(5) cost effectiveness- not just mpg savings
(6) features
Now add Now 2006 Honda Civic SI 6-speed coupe w/NAV = S
(1) P=++, C=++ I=+++ S=+
(2) P=+++ C=+++ I=+++ S=+++
(3) P=--- , C=2005 ++ C=2006 ---, I=++ S=+++
(4) P=-- , C=-- , I=- S=+++
(5) P=-- , C=+ , I=+ S=+
(6) P=+++ , C=++ , I=+ , S=++
H'mm it looks like the following ranking:
First = 2006 Honda Civic SI
Second = 2005 HCH 5-speed manual
Third= 2006 Insight 5-speed
FOURTH= 2006 HCH CVT
FIFTH= 2006 Prius CVT
These results are a small sampling and may not be scientifcially accurate. Also, you opions, testing and findings may vary. It is just that I have found the only way hybrids are better is in mpg and that all folk's as Porky Pig used to say.
Double sixes,
MidCow
I agree with you on most counts. Hybrids aren't as fun to drive as they should be, because too much of them is automated. If I could manually operate the engine shutoff, it would be much more efficient, since at present it frequently kills itself just before the light turns green, and I could manually shift it on my ride to work more efficiently than even the ECVT, which is pretty hard to beat anywhere but on the highway. I used to drive a Justy, which got me better than 50mpg just from my 'gentle touch' driving habits. It got crumpled between a pickup truck and a guard rail after Subaru stopped shipping them over here. You shouldn't have to buy an expensive hybrid in order to get a reasonably safe and efficient car, but I am not about to drive around with a highly explosive tank of natural gas, so here I am with an '06 HCH.
I guess since 99% of the time you won't need your seatbelt you shouldn't bother putting it on.
Or since 99% people won't need their airbags, they should save the money and not buy them. Actually 99% is not a highly reliable number.
You wouldn't want to get in an accident 1 out of 100 times you go to the store. The space shuttle is a little over 98% reilable ( 2 accidents out of 117).
Additionally, I haven't seen anybody say that ESC isn't needed on front wheel drive cars. In fact, I've seen a discussion that indicates it is still needed on AWD cars.
I guess they are just putting ESC in FWD cars for show like pinstripes.
Granted ESC isn't going to save you from every accident, but if you keep a bible in the glove compartment, you should be ok for the other 95%.
All that aside, I reviewed the safety features for the Civic and Toyota and I came up with a couple of nuggets I overlooked.
To the advantage of the Civic, it has "Active Head Restraints" which is a nice feature that prevents whip lash (which 99% of the people wont need :shades: )
And the Prius has a Tire monitor guage which alerts you to loss of air in the tires.
I said :
"These results are a small sampling and may not be scientifcially accurate. Also, you opions, testing and findings may vary. It is just that I have found the only way hybrids are better is in mpg and that all folk's as Porky Pig used to say."
koolkinkajou said: "Additionally, I haven't seen anybody say that ESC isn't needed on front wheel drive cars." Well, I for one say it is not needed, so there is a least one. Only needed if you do not drive correctly for the conditions.
My choice is still the Civic Si. The Prius is one of the slowest Toyotas made!
YOMV,
MidCow
Some people think that the Toyota Prius is the standard by which other Hybrids are to be measured, but not me!! Who made the first Hybrid car? Obviously it was Honda in 1999 with the Insight! Everyone else saw that Honda is the leader in Hybrids so then they created their cars to compete against Honda. It is easier to make your own hybrid when you already see someone elses design. Honda might not be all over the place advertising their Hybrids, but they sure do have a better reputation than Toyota. Believe me, Honda knows where to put what in their cars in favor of the drivers convenience. If you wanna compare the Prius to the Accord or civic hybrid, there is no way. Compare it to the Insight, genius, and dont just look at the features inside. Compare it to the same hatchback bodystyle and to the gas mileage. I dont believe that a 1.5 liter engine can acheive 60 miles per gallon. It gets around 36 in the real world. In someones high gas mileage prius world, it gets that kinda mileage which serves as propaganda. So there! Have it your way, but morew people have it my way and I take the stand with Honda and not Toyota. :P
Actually, when they get clean sulphur, more compnies will import diesels into the USA besides Mercedes and VW and they will give the hybrids a run for their money!
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S.- It has become a proven fact that for the first 5 years of their life hybrids are less economilca than an equivalent gas/diesel only car.
Even on ULSD as available in Europe, the cleanest Diesel in the Toyota Verso D-4D cannot touch Tier II/Bin 5. Ford and DCC have their Urea injection into an SCR but Toyota may not have that in their patent portfolio unless it was one of the techs Ford gave to them for the FEH’s eCVT/HSD tech. All you need to do is look it up. Euro IV using ULSD is 250 and 350% higher in PM and NOx over Tier II/Bin5 and Tier II/Bin5 is the worst case scenario here in the states starting next year. Damn things couldn’t be sold in CA or the other Green States this year and CA. already has ULSD available DCC is saying they will have the Blue-Tec/SCR CAT placed in their Diesel MB’s for 50 state certification available very soon. Cleaning a CI-ICE to US emission specs is not an inexpensive proposition by any stretch.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Do I have to teach you everything or do you think you can use Google to figure some of this out on your own rather then posting non-sense again and again and again?
Wayne R. Gerdes
Cool Beans, No problem, teacher! If you don't know the answer, yes I can look it up on Google. By the way I don't think the word nonsense has a hyphen
Have a Good Day, cruis'n at FE better thna EPA :shades: ,
MidCow
Actually the Prius came out first and started selling as a 1997 model in Japan.
We bought a 2006 HCH w/o NAVI on 2/26/06 at Stevens Creek Honda, San Jose, CA, for $25,100.
For only $6,000 more you could have gotten a S2000 ant invoice and had some real fun!
Keep on cruis'n :shades: ,
MidCow
P.S.- I did the $6k more and I'm only getting about 23 mpg on premium. But with a short-shift 6-speed and a loud Invidia exhaust it is hard to drive for hyper-mileage :P
Oh, and I've seen countelss advertisements for Honda's hybrids (much more than for Toyota's hybrids).
Quoted: "In our analysis, none of the six hybrids we have tested recovered its price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership (see Hybrids vs. all gas). Nor did any when the analysis was extended to 10 years and 150,000 miles. Rather, extra ownership costs over five years ranged from $3,700 to $13,300. "
Out of 6 hybirds they tested ,NONE were more cost effective after five years than their equvalent non-Hybrid models.
I find it humorous that the Prius no equivalent is equated to the Corolla.
Lucky I didn't buy a hydrid, becuase who in their right might lake's to drive like thier grandmother :confuse:
Double Sixes,
MidCow
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/14045918.htm
``We deeply regret the error,'' Rik Paul, the magazine's automotive editor, said in the statement.
75,000 miles from now, there will be many more new hybrid options out on the road, it's very difficult to guess what they will be worth once there is more competition out there.
We also don't know what gas prices will do, they have fluctuated wildly in the past couple of years. That also affects resale values and operating costs.
-juice
"You miss the point entirely. People buy a hybrid to make an environmental statement about their concern for the planet and to use as little fuel as possible, whether the additional investment pays back or not."
Your opinion, okay. But most people and the adverstisements are still hawking the mileage savings ... which really don't exist.
Let me ask you a question and answer it honestly. How many of the people that want to use as little fule as possible have installed solar water heaters, solar electric panels, and wind electric genrators on their houses, only use a push non-gas lawnmower, and ride a bicycle for all short trips where possible? If they really want to 'use as little fuel as possilbe' the answer would be yes to all of these. My guess the real answer is only tenths of one percent.
I decided I did not WANT to put up with the sacrifices required to drive a Hybrid. I economize and practice good business money managmeent, but gas is only a minor expense in the big picture.
Double Sixes,
MidcOW
P.S.- If you are really interested in reducing polution replace coal electric generation with nulcear! Go nuclear!
Fuel prices in Australia are = $6.00 to $6.50 per gallon for standard!!!
Plug that into your pay back data and see what happens.
I've just purchased a 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid for that reason.
Honda Civic Hybrid $35k (on the road)
Prius $41k (on the road)
You live in a country I would love to visit. Keep us posted on how you like the Civic Hybrid. By comparison what does diesel cost in Melbourne?
Gary
1-both cars have been getting about 50mpg with me and my girlfriend driving them.
2-the prius has a MUCH bigger back seat (front seat and hatch area feel about the same size)
3-both of the vehicles accelerate about the same (the golf is a little faster, but feels much quicker because of the manual transmission)
4-the bright red prius has much more curb appeal than the anthracite blue golf
5- the golf keeps it's 50 mpg rate at 75 mph. the prius doesn't
6- the prius is MUCH easier to drive in heavy traffic than the manual transmission golf.
7- the prius has more high tech gadgets, but the golf gadgets and accessories have been more well thought out.
8- the diesel vw golf can tow a 1300 lb trailer at highway speeds with no difficulty. the prius can't.
9- the diesel isn't nearly as fun as the prius 0n 5 degree fahrenheit mornings as i back up through the cloud of smoke made by the ice cold diesel engine.
10- i run 20% biodiesel in my golf, i can only run 10% ethanol in the prius.
11- on an overflowing tank of diesel i can travel over 800 miles in the golf, i only seem to be getting about 450 miles to the tank on the prius.(cold fuel bladder seems to keep the tank capacity well under 10 gallons)
12 the golf cost 20,300 (list price, no deals), the prius cost a little over 24,000 (also list, no deals)
each of these cars has shown itself to be suited for different jobs and we use them for such.
heavy hauling gets done by the golf
long road trips at 80mph get done in the golf
commutes through rush hour traffic get done in the prius.
driving somewhere with 4 people definitely gets done in the prius.
BTW, I proudly averaged 45 mpg in mixed driving of my Prius during the first 25,000 miles. My wife started driving it and averaged 49 mpg, with a little more highway driving. Needless to say, I have been taking lessons... My primary motivation for buying a Prius was/is the low emissions (EV-1 was no longer available), and, yes, I do have solar electric at my house, along with solar hot water.
I test drove a new RX 400h for over 15 miles, averaged 28 mpg on combination driving. Seemed nice but a little noisy until I made sure the 3 back seat latches were properly caught.
Have Fun!
-juice