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Here's the revised post:
'05 T & C preliminary build w/options (no pricing) - along with Caravans (US models) are available at carquotes.com and carprices.net.
carcom2/jchan2 (already replied in #55), based on above overhead rails are not available if both sunroof and video system are orderd. Also, you can't have the side curtain airbags with the sunroof - that's too an important safety feature to forego, IMO.
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If this is true, don't know what the decision makers at Chrysler are thinking. Is this for keeping the price down?. On the Toyota Sienna you can have the side curtain airbags with the Sunroof, although there are no overhead rails on any trim.
Not sure about the accuracy of these preliminary option details. If they are (or will be) true, yes, this could be how they are going to reduce the price by 15% over current models.
http://wwwsg.daimlerchrysler.com/SD7DEV/GMS/TEMPLATES/GMS_PRESS_R- - - - ELEASE/0,2941,0-6-51114-1-1-text-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html
Net result will be less rebates, but out the door prices will not be significantly different.
I am glad to see they are not abandoning their short wheel base versions and also are giving customers the choice if they don't want to pay for the stow and go seats in the long wheel base versions. DC will have the bases covered from the stripped down 4 cylinder short wheel base versions to the fully loaded T&C, and it appears that you will be able to get a reasonably priced long wheel base version that does include the stow and go seats.
And yes, these were the new Stow 'n Go vans.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2458900373&category=5352
I am puzzled why there isn't more talk about this van. Compare the traffic on this board to the Sienna board, for example. The new DC vans seem to trump the competition in several areas, yet there doesn't seem to be much excitement about them.
Another thing I am somewhat curious about is if their is much difference between the '04 and '05 short wheelbase vans, e.g., do they have the same sandwich construction as the big vans but without the Stow 'n Go? If there is little difference, I could be tempted to get a '04 holdover since there should be really big discounts on those once the '05s start arriving en masse.
What about Hybrid or SmartAccess Keys?
I guess Chrysler will always be way, way, behind Toyota and Honda.
Who cares about boring seat configurations and boring little primative NAV screens and boring same-old-same-old dvd player. Let's talk about something new and exciting.
That thing's interior is so ugly. Will the 2005 interior be any better looking or just as ugly?
To be fair, Chrysler has won little or no praise for some of the most innovative minivan firsts including: power liftgate, dual sliding doors, windshield de-icer and hiding the sliding door track under the rear window. The latter two are now copied by Toyota in their '04 models (perhaps the only other manufacturer???).
I would bet once the vans go on display at the dealers, we will see a lot more postings-especially about comfort levels of the second and third rows.
Most of the HondaToyotaNissan zealots hanging out at Edmunds will not acknowledge that DC can do anything right. All you will hear is that "DC has crappy transmissions and old pushrod engines", while the transmissions have been long fixed and the DC 3.3 and 3.8 engines are smooth and quiet as butter and don't have to rev high to get good torque.
Perhaps andrew has it right. No major bells and whistles other than the folding seats. For me, it's the folding second and third row seats that will put the caravan back on my radar screen.
What about Hybrid or SmartAccess Keys?
I wasn't aware any automaker offered a hybrid minivan. Which minivans offer SmartAccess?
Yes, all the electronics are fun, but how many were initially developed by Toyota? I can get sonar parking assist on a Freestar; that doesn't make it a great van. I think Chysler should be congratulated for being the first to figure out how to stow the middle seats completely in the floor. Toyota, Nissan, GM, and Ford just redesigned their vans and none of them could figure that trick out (maybe none of their engineers' kids owned an Erector set).
I'm interested in pulling a boat with my minivan and need 3500 # towing capacity. Does anyone know how high a trim level you have to go up to for being able to obtain this option or how much it costs? Is it like Freestar with only 2000# out of the chute, later to try to get 3500#? Sienna doesn't even list the trailer hitch as an accessory or in an option package on their web site so hard to understand cost. I know you can get it on that vehicle, but how how up you have to go in trim level I'm not sure. Nissan stands out in this way as the only minivan I have found that can be had for $25000 MSRP with a hitch installed. Maybe Chrysler/Dodge will meet or beat them now. At that $25000 price point I would hope the Grand Caravan could be had with a CD player, side curtain airbags, reading lights in all three rows, and rear air conditioning. This is where Freestar fell on its face. They will be lucky to unload what they have built already at Ford.
Grand Caravan SE -- 1800 lbs. -- $24,975 base
Grand Caravan eX -- 1800 lbs. -- $27,225 base
Grand Caravan SXT -- 1800 lbs. -- $30,335 base
Grand Caravan SXT AWD -- 3800 lbs. -- $32,660 base
Grand Caravan Anniv. Ed. -- 3800 lbs. -- $33,050 base
FWIW, I cannot tell if there is any REAL difference (other than the SXT AWD of course) in the drive train in any of the vans other than the SE, which has only a 3.3 liter mill as opposed to the 3.8 in all of the rest. Could it be that the only real difference is marketing? I don't know, I suggest you ask a dealer and see if he/she really knows, or if they feed you a line of horse hockey.
I hope this helps.
Best Regards,
Shipo
BTw, I checked out a 2005 Caravan SXT. The Stow and Go is terrific. The comfort of the seats in the second and third row is about as good as my 2002 T&C. A brillant piece of engineering.
*Out of sight sticker shock. The unit I looked at had $31,000+ list (Tour edition), but no side curtain protection at that price. Had most of the other bells and whistles. Sliding side doors seemed very well done - as good as the Honda in my book.
*The rear and front stowing seats was very thought out in many ways. They accomplish the stowing front seats by raising the step in floor height about 1 inch. The inside dimensions are not compromised. A look under the chassis shows lots of tubes and pipes routing their way around the sunk in depressions to receive the seats.
*The rest of the car is hardly touched beyond these areas. On the outside, they are nearly indistiguishable.
*The head rests, although not required to be removed to tuck the seats are extremely small and have little padding when compared to Quest and Ody. In fact, a poorly belted rear seat person will be badly injured by the exposed metal posts when extended, should an accident occur with front impact.
*The floor where the seats stow were sturdy under my 190 lbs, but my wife and I wonder about their durability from being walked on relentlessly, places for grime to hide. The front seat must be positioned a certain amount forward to allow the cover to be lifted up to set the seat in the well. It folded extremely flat - improved over Quest concept.
*Third row 60/40 split was really easy to fold and this is a huge advantage over Freestar and comparable to Sienna. Gives lots of seating options for family of 6.
*The leg room in the third row is better than the Freestar, but worse than Ody and Quest. You cannot stick your toes under the second row seat when in the third row seat. Quest fabric cover at least gets the toes under the second row seat to gain some foot space.
*This vehicle is better than Freestar in many respects, but in the end, we signed for an Ody LX today at $2000 less than MSRP when equipped the way we want it, which would have been several thousand less than the Chrysler to get the 3500 lb towing. Gave up the side curtain protection that the Quest has standard and the Sienna offers as an option. Just couldn't get past the Quest noisy fan when on high and less than solid fits on several other components.
I personally believe that DC dealers not ordering AWD vans in sufficient numbers in mid-range equipped models was also a big part of the problem.
I'm sure it is a wonderful van and delivers good value for many folks, but just not the option package I was after. As posts in other areas indicate, with a whole lot less confusion, Honda/Nissan/Toyota seems to put together the option packages most folks are interested without loading down the entry vehicle or pricing it out of sight on the high end.
Price was very competitive at MSRP $27,595 with 2 power sliding side doors, power liftgate, 6 CD in dash stereo changer, 16" alloy wheels, 3.8L V6 with more torque than any minivan but the 4.2L Freestar that has much lower HP, triple zone temperature that very few vans have, and many other nice features.
The cloth interior was much more attractive than the Sienna LE, Odyssey EX, or any Quest interior.
Could see very little difference between 2005 Caravan SXT and 2004 Caravan SXT except tachometer is now standard on 2005 and the price is about $3000 less. Same with 2005 Grand Caravan SE vs 2004 Grand Caravan SE. Grand Caravan SXT was made in Canada while Caravan SXT and Grand Caravan SE were made in Fenton, MO. The grille of 2005 GC SXT is slightly different from the identical grilles of the 2005 Caravan SXT and 2005 GC SE.
Sienna CE/LE 7 passenger 4120lbs, CE/LE 8 passenger 4175lbs, XLE/XLE Limited 4165 lbs, XLE/XLE Limited AWD 4365 lbs.
Odyssey LX 4310 lbs, EX 4365 lbs.
IF DC reliability has improved as much as it appears, the 2005 GC SXT would be my choice over either the Sienna LE or Odyssey EX. After 26 years, it is time for me to forget about the ugly experience I had with my 1970 Dodge van. After all, the 1976 VW Bus that replaced the Dodge van was traded off for a 1980 Chevy van when it was not much more reliable than the 1970 Dodge van.
Toyota vehicles have been the most reliable for me but my Ford F-150 and Chevy Blazer have been remarkably reliable too. I am not brand loyal and I got the vehicle I felt best when I needed another one.
Who cares who invented what?
I just want the best period.
Sure, that's great that Chrysler "invented" folding seats.
Why don't they invent better reliability and more cool features so that some of us can have some fun driving minivans instead of getting stuck with boring interior looks and "Oh-My-God-Wow" folding seats. Oooooooooooh. How exciting.
What have you done for me, lately?
That's what I'm talking about.
I don't buy Toyota or Honda just because they are so-called "Japanese". Heck, they're made right here in the USA by Americans just like Chrysler is. The only difference is that Toyota and Honda try to be more than just practical.
I mean, practical is good. But these day, you gotta have everything, man. You gotta have all the high-tech and you gotta have the awesome looks that will put Toyota and Honda to shame.
There's nothing wrong with copying something if it's great.
Toyota and Honda copied Chrysler with the folding seats because it's great. That's all that matters.
Chrysler needs to copy Toyota and Honda with their looks and features and copy Kia with their 10yr/100K miles warranty.
Forget about who invented what.
All everyone cares about is who has the best features, looks, reliability, and warranty.
Fold away second and third row seats that fold easily completely flush are a feature I will argue most minivan buyers will rate highly, more than NAV systems, and vehicle skid control, variable valve OHC engines, etc.
Also, many people have price as a major feature. You want to pay for all those bells and whistles? Good, go buy your fully loaded Sienna or Odyssey for a price in the upper $30K range. You want a choice of wheelbases and vans that start under $20K MSRP, go DC.
That's why its good to have choices, right?
PS My opinion, but the DC minivans have always been the best looking minivans on the market, and still are. Best warranty right now too, or does Kia have it with a 10 year 100k limited warranty?