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Toyota Highlander Hybrid

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Comments

  • joe540cijoe540ci Member Posts: 17
    Anyone get a good look at the Hihy at the auto show? And if so was this the production version you saw?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I can readily understand that it's a good idea to use regenerative braking instead or along with friction braking when the brake pedal is actually depressed.

    What I cannot understand is the use of regenerative braking during periods of coasting. How does the hybrid system know of my intent?

    Maybe my intent is to extend FE by coasting slowly to a stop at that upcoming stop sign or traffic light. It seems to me that since regenerative braking can NEVER recover enough energy to overcome the fuel savings I might attain by simply coasting it would be better to only use regenerative braking instead of friction braking or along with same.

    Or why not a clutch-like control wherein I can "tell" the system my intentions. Regenerative braking unless I activate the "clutch" indicating my intention to coast and thereby increase FE.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Hmmm.... not sure what you meant by impact on FE.

    When we take our foot off the accelerator, the gas engine normally shuts off, the car coasts and regenerative braking begins. The gas engine is not running so there is no impact on FE. I believe this is the same for the 2008 model. To turn off regenerative braking, simply shift to "NEUTRAL" and let it coasts.

    Regenerative braking from 35-40 MPH is extremely effective even on fairly flat terrain as long as there is sufficient coasting distance for recharging to occur. It can yield 2 to 4 bars of charge (25% to 50% of battery power) depending on speed and coasting distance. We are learning to keep the battery fully charged in this manner whenever possible so that it can kick in to help even when the gas engine must run to maintain speed. This has really helped our MPG.

    In some special situations, we have shifted to NEUTRAL in order to gain longer coasting distance at higher speed while conserving battery power but we rarely have to do this.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    There is no regenerative braking during coasting. What happens is that the computer senses a decrease in momentum and at that time it turns the e-motor to a generator driven by the wheels. This puts a load on the transaxel as it's forced to drive the e-motor thereby slowing the vehicle down. At some later time the driver applies the brakes and then the regenerative braking is in effect.

    This recapture of kinetic energy is one of the most ingenious features of the THS.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Uuhh.. this is not quite what I see on the display. You may be describing the older generation THS? The HH has HSD which is supposedly TSH II, whatever that means.

    Whenever I take my foot off the accelerator, the MPG display goes up to 99.9 MPH meaning the gas engine is off. The energy flows clearly shows recharging is taking place and the battery bars begins to rise.

    So I am dead sure, base on driving experience, that whenever we coast in "D", regenerative braking is definitely taking place, at least in the HH. The Prius may behave differently. The only time regenerative braking is off or not happening is when we coast the HH in "N", or NEUTRAL.

    I believe the old Prius technique of driving in such a way so as to have no flows to or from the battery is now achieved by simply putting the car in "N" when coasting.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Reading the posts again this morning with a clear mind, Khdspyder is absolutely correct and I was wrong. I was thinking of "charging" while Spyder was referring to "braking" and for some reason, my brain did not see the difference, duuhh....

    As Khdspyder explained, no regerative braking during coasting, the e-motor becomes a generator and charges the battery of the HH so there is no FE penalty.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Let's get back to talking specifically about the 2008 Highlander. You are more than welcome to create a discussion about braking in general (or as it relates to hybrid vehicles).

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    This recapture of kinetic energy is not explained anywhere in Toyota's literature but if you look at the 'cartoon' graphic on the Navi screen you'll see what the difference is.

    The three ways that the batteries are charged are..
    ..splitting the output of the ICE during between driving the wheels and sending excess energy to the battery. ( the orange arrows from the ICE are split )
    ..having the wheels drive the e-motor as a generator soley charging the battery during deceleration - coasting. ( note the green arrows coming from the wheels through the e-motor to the battery ). There's no brake force applied here but since the wheels have to 'work' to drive the e-motor this load and friction and the lack of power input tend to slow the vehicle during coasting even without the brakes being applied.
    ..regenerative braking, when the brakes are actually applied to the wheels from say 20 mph down to 0 mph.

    In the THS II ( HSD ) there is an speed barrier of sorts at which the engine shuts down. It's 41 mph. Coasting at speeds below 41 mph will have the ICE turned off. Coasting at speeds above 41 mph turns the ICE from normal spin of about 1600 rpms to idle spin of about 950 rpms. At Hwy speeds of 60-75 mph when the FE meter goes to 99.9 mpg during coasting the engine is actully 'idling' at about 950 rpms.

    [sorry missed your request kirstie_h ]
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Using the kinetic energy of the vehicle during coasting (no brake, no gas)to forciably turn the MG and thereby generate electricity for charging the hybrid battery will SLOW the vehicle just as it would with a light foot (no friction braking) on the brake pedal.

    So I tend to call the use of the MG as a generator "REGENERATIVE BRAKING" in all cases.

    As someone said, it's there to simulate engine compression braking.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Let's swing back to the Highlander please. If you want to discuss regenerative braking in general, please head over to the How do Hybrids work? Newbie questions encouraged. discussion. That way folks that are looking for a discussion about the Highlander will find it here, and folks after more general info on the inner workings of hybrid vehicles will find that in the other discussion.
  • mmccloskeymmccloskey Member Posts: 168
    Greetings:

    I purchased a 2007 Highlander Hybrid Limited/FWD w/Nav last week and am quite pleased. Many have mentioned how quiet this car is. I agree that there is very little mechanical and road noise but I have noticed a good deal of wind noise (maybe from the roof rack/cross bars) when traveling over 50mph. Not sure if this is unique to my vehicle but am wondering if others with a limited model have noticed this. One other thing - during the test drive I drove a regular Hybrid but bought the Limited due to the nicer appointments. It seems the Limited is a bit quieter overall than the base Hybrid.

    Thanks for any/all comments.

    Regards - M. J. McCloskey
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Hi, it is very likely that the moonroof is not closing correctly.

    When we first picked up ours in August 2005, it was also noisy and the cause was the moonroof not closing correctly because it was never initialized at the dealership. The manual has instructions on how to do this, real easy.

    I hope this is the cause of the noisiness. It is an easy fix.
  • mmccloskeymmccloskey Member Posts: 168
    Thanks so much for your reply -

    I had suspected the Moonroof and ensured it was closed. I even closed the moonroof shade and the wind noise was still evident. As the moonroof is one-touch open/close I would assume it would close properly. I have used the tilt feature a few times and am wondering if it is completely closed - it looks as though it is from the outside. With all this rain/wind in the mid-Atlantic region I sure hope it is closed! Based on your recommendation I referenced the Owner's manual (P. 45) and saw nothing about initializing the moonroof. Maybe I need to contact the dealer about this.

    Other than this issue, the vehicle is quite nice overall. I am very impressed with the fit/finish and ride/handling. I had a 2002 Lexus ES300 and this Highlander is on a par with it in that regard. Although the interior is not Lexus Like (better leather and real wood in the Lexus) it is certainly above most other similar vehicles.

    Best regards -

    M. J. McCloskey
  • jbolltjbollt Member Posts: 736
    We have owned a 2003 Highlander, and currently have an 05. On the 03, we experienced a wind noise, that was determined to be coming from the front door windows. If you lower the front windows 1/8 on an inch, see if the noise doesn't get much better. If so, I believe tere is a service bulletin that the dealer can perform that will fix this. It seems that when the window is all the way up, it can cause the rubber at the lower part of the glass, where it meets the top of the door panel, to slightly pull away from the glass, allowing road noise to enter the cabin.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    If the moonroof is able to operate automatically, then what I said may not apply. Please check with dealer then.

    In the 2006 Manual, the "Normalization" (Initialization) process is described on p.46, center column. Just to the left of the yellow caution boxes.

    Just last week, our moonroof stopped working and I could not even run the normalization process. It ended up in the dealership and they said, "...the moon roof computer lost its memory..." and they had to "...re-initialize the memory...". Hmmm... but it works now and I am not complaining :).

    Good luck!
  • nomorebenznomorebenz Member Posts: 109
    It's best to see the mechanic. You could go nuts looking for the wind noise and it is very difficult to track down alone.
    You could have a misaligned door seal. The Highlander doesn't have the best ones I've seen.

    I do agree with your assessment of the car. I like mine as well.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    If you own a hybrid or an HH in Georgia, you probably already know that the HH will "flunk" Georgia's emission test.

    There is a CNN video clip on cnn.com (today, 4/16/07) that details how Georgia Emission Tests cannot handle gas-electric hybrids *because* the ICE shuts down. So Georgia tells owners of such vehicles to pay $25 anyway to run the test, fail it and then bring that "failed" report in for "waivers". Wow, speaking of selectively targeting gas-electric owners and making life particular difficult for them.

    In an interview with a lady who is reported to be "head" of the Georgia emission effort, she said Georgia has not yet determined that a gas-electric hybrid has cleaner emission. Wow. Looks like getting an HH in Georgia is not as simple as just buying it without rebates.
  • stevegoldstevegold Member Posts: 185
    Just bought a white one in Denver exactly as you described.
    Paid $38,000 plus tax etc.
  • lynnkushnirlynnkushnir Member Posts: 15
    a 2007 @ that price is awesome and the white is gorgeous, you r so lucky, that or the lexus rx are my dream cars....in 4 years if you're under 50,000 miles i bet u could sell it for $28,000. just think,. you're driving the fastest,(except for porsche cayenne) and quietest suv in the world for $2500. a year. can't beat that. i'm saving and hopefully will have one by the summer. isn't air cond. quiet? enjoy. and i'm really happy for you.
  • stevegoldstevegold Member Posts: 185
    We haven't driven the HH more than 5 miles since we still have our 2002 Subaru which is being picked up next week. My car is a 2004 Prius which beats the Subaru, the new HH and all of my friends cars. Yesterday I put a 9' Trex plank in the Prius and was able to shut the trunk. Today I tried the same thing with the HH and had to drive home with the trunk ajar. The boards were heavy so I couldn't move them around to figure out why.
    We plan to use the Prius most of the time except when 4WD is required so it will definitely be under 50,000 miles in four years.
  • peatnickpeatnick Member Posts: 26
    Sloan Toyota Philly Area
    Used Internet Sales Dept.
    Only Option =Pkge 2
    Sticker $39.5K
    Invoice Price $35.3K
    Cash Rebate $1.5K
    6% Tax on $33.8K
    About $150 title and licence
    $36K out the door
    Actually putting money where mouth is on envirnment = priceless :D
  • stevegoldstevegold Member Posts: 185
    The difference must be the NAV system and the rest of package #3.
  • peatnickpeatnick Member Posts: 26
    Correct, no NAV (could never get the hang of those anyway) but did get the floor mats and cargo net along with the sunroof, leather etc in pkg3
  • stevegoldstevegold Member Posts: 185
    How do you like the car? We still have our Subaru so have hardly driven the Highlander. We're giving the Subaru to our grandson in Chicago and will start using the HH when we return. His mother also has a HH (2006).
  • peatnickpeatnick Member Posts: 26
    Steve,

    The car rides very nice, I almost bought one 2 years ago, but it was still selling at MSRP then. My dad and uncle both have the Prius, they can't stop raving about it, but my wife says we still need a "big" car since we have 3 kids under 12 years old...
  • cashuangcashuang Member Posts: 2
    Can you post the steps to normalize the sunroof here? I have checked my owner's manual, but did not see any mentioning of such thing. Maybe TOYOTA removes the section from 2006 owner's manual. Thanks!
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Hi, to "normalize" the 2006 HH sunroof do the following:

    1. Turn your key so there is power. No need to turn on engine though.

    2. Push the moon roof button to the "TILT-UP" position and hold the button in that position until the roof has completely cycled through tilt up, down, slide open and slide close. Then you can release the button.

    3. On ours, when I first push to tilt-up, roof will tilt open but then nothing will happen. I must continue to hold the button in the tilt-up position for 30+ seconds, then the normalization kicks in. The manual says nothing about this long wait. And when we first got the car, we did not have to wait that long.

    Good luck. THe instruction is in our 2006 manual, pg. 46. It has no big title, just a bried paragraph.
  • cashuangcashuang Member Posts: 2
    Thanks much! It works like a charm! Now I can finally know when it is fully closed.

    The 2006 manual I have got did not have this section. And pg.46 is the instructions about folding down second seats. Wonder why there is such difference.

    Toyota must be out of their mind to sell a car that does not operate as the owner manual says.
  • haymistahaymista Member Posts: 12
    I know the 08 is going to be a re-design, but will it be worth the extra money? Is the Hybrid technology different?
  • stevegoldstevegold Member Posts: 185
    Doesn't do anything on the 2007 and nothing in the manual about normalization.
  • haymistahaymista Member Posts: 12
    I've read where the 2008 will have a litium battery. Can anyone explain how this battery differs from the 2007? I've read where they expect the 08 HH to get the same mileage even though it is 500 pounds heavier due to the increased interior size, but I can't decide if I should take advantage of the rebates and get a 2007. The 2008s are sure to be more expensive plus there is usually less room to haggle on a new model.
  • jmpage2jmpage2 Member Posts: 268
    Lets get back to the topic and not keep derailing this thread with discussions about braking/etc.

    I'm interested in when we can get an early price sheet on the 2008 model.

    I'm also interested in if the deep LCD lit gauges shown in photos from the 2008 "sport" model that have been popping up around the net will also be in the hybrid as well.

    I have been considering an Acura MDX for my wife but with rising fuel prices I am strongly considering the 2008 HH.
  • joe540cijoe540ci Member Posts: 17
    Which would you buy if the price was close?
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    It all depends on what you are looking for. Price will be close but MPG is significantly different as I understand it. I would also check out reliability and general fit and finish if I am going to pay all that cash for a GM car.

    The 2008 HH is supposedly getting the same MPG as the 2006, 2007 HH. Using the 2008 new EPA computation, that will put it generally 20% lower than the 2007 old-EPA computation MPG. That means the HH 4WDi Ltd model may get something like 22 HWY/ 25 City or 24 Combined. I am getting 26-28 MPG depending on where and how I drive. SO I expect the 2008 to get about the same real life, between 24-28 MPG.

    Car and Driver "claims" the Tahoe is reported to be around 20 MPG in real world driving. You have to decide if the difference of 20 MPG vs 24 MPG or 26 MPG is significant.

    The Tahoe can tow 6000-lbs while the 2008 HH can tow 5000-lbs.

    As for sophistication of the drive system and safety features, you will have to research what the Tahoe offers. The HH has the VDIM drive-by-wire system which I have really grown to love after having to negotiate mountain roads in the Mt. Shasta (Northern CA - north of Redding) area over the past two years. The 2008 will have the same system or improved. Handling for such a heavy and tall car is really impressive and this is *not* a BMW.

    Will the Tahoe run on full-electric as the 2008 HH will? We all know the current Saturn Vue is really a "mimld" hybrid that cannot run on electric only. The 2008 HH can run on electric for the first mile if there is enough charge. In our '06 HH, we can run on electric only for miles on flat road using certain techniques. I expect the '08 HH to do the same. Can Tahoe do this?

    The HH runs its accessories on electric so I can have the A/C blasting at a full stop with the gas engine off but still able to drive off when the light is green. This saves gas. Can the Tahoe do the same?

    I would check out the fit and finish too. The HH comes like a luxury car and drives like one. Will the Tahoe offer the same given that the price is comparable?

    There is also issue of reliability. Has GM improve its quality so that everything, from the smallest clip to the transmission simply works? Or will things rattle and creak and come loose after 5000, 10000 or 20000 miles?

    Also want to check the emission rating. Getting a hybrid to save gas is one thing but if you are really into reducing emission, then get a car that runs clean. The 2008 HH is currently assumed to be SULEV II (CA). There is a rumor that Toyota may try to get it certified at a PZEV but I doubt it. What will the GM Tahoe be rated?

    I have nothing against GM and hope it can finally come out with something that makes sense but I would be really weary and would hold GM to as high a standard as Toyota.

    Good luck in your research.
  • ljmiiiljmiii Member Posts: 7
    I think that if you are deciding between buying a 2007 vs 2008 HiHy the big decision items are:

    1 - The 2007 will be more quick and nimble (500lbs less with the same drivetrain)

    2 - You can carry people taller than 5' 0" in the 3rd row seat of the 2008

    3 - You can likely get a better deal on a 2007 sitting on the lot
  • desertfox1desertfox1 Member Posts: 80
    What is "normalize"?
  • bdymentbdyment Member Posts: 573
    Normalization is a procedure one goes through to have the sunroof open and close correctly. This should be done by the dealer before delivery, but is often not done. If you have to replace your battery the roof will have to be normalized as well.
  • mmccloskeymmccloskey Member Posts: 168
    Greetings:

    I have a few questions regarding the battery level indicator (below the speedo) for those who have had their HH's for a while. When I first got the car (4/6/07) the battery level was at 6 and would briefly go to 7. As time and miles have gone by, I notice the battery level is usually 6 and will drop to 4 or 5 while driving depending on various factors. I always try to drive with a light foot to conserve fuel and keep the battery level up. Is 6 considered an average/normal level and is there any way I can get it charged up to 7 or 8? I was a bit concerned that the battery would drop to a level that might prevent the car from operating but the 'system' seems to know when to kick in the ICE to ramp up the battery.

    Overall I am quite pleased with my 2007 HH Limited w/Nav. It sure is nice to get over 29mpg and ride in such comfort and room. I made a good choice on a great vehicle. As nice as this car is, I can't imagine how much better the 2008 will be, especially being so much heavier. With all that projected extra weight, it certainly won't have the spirited acceleration that the 2007 HH's have.

    Thanks for any comments or input regarding battery level.

    Regards -

    M. J. McCloskey
  • joe540cijoe540ci Member Posts: 17
    I have a 06 highlander and I want to tow more than I can now. I have always been a CHEVY MAN but I am a toyota man too.I think reliability is the biggest question I have. Toyota reliability is a no brainer, chevy has not been the best lately. Oh what too do???
  • desertfox1desertfox1 Member Posts: 80
    What if the battery dies, and needs recharging?
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Don't know how the 2007 model works, Toyota probably put in something more intelligent so the sun roof just works.

    In the 2006, if the little battery dies, at least the Idle Speed Learning memory gets flushed and the car will run the gas engine longer until it relearns everything. During this time, your gas mileage will suffer. The dealership knows how to do this for you to shorten the relearning process. As for the sun roof, I don't know what will happen, but it is likely that it will have to be reinitialized again.

    Not a big deal once we know how to do it.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    We have the '06, so take this with a large grain of salt.

    Our '06 has no numbers, only bars to indicate charge level. It is common to see 6 bars most of the time during normal flat land driving. The charge controller will run the ICE (gas engine) as needed to charge the batteries. The lowest it will go is 2 bars and then the ICE runs and runs to get it back up to 4 bars.

    There are road conditions that will charge it up to full 8 bars. There are also some techniques that we use to make it get a fuller charge. Such as longer coast at higher speed to get regenerative braking or using the "B" mode or using the brakes to dip the power needle into the blue region.

    We notice that 6 bars is good at helping the gas engine along to get high mileage. 8 bars is even better but only on certain roads that allow us to get up to 8 bars.

    Getting 29-MPG in your '07 is fantastic. I have not been able to get past 28-MPG too often in our '06. May be I am carrying too much gear in the trunk. We are always loaded up with tools, equipment and water.

    Happy Hybriding!
  • mmccloskeymmccloskey Member Posts: 168
    Thanks so much for your info. The readout in my '07 doesn't have actual #'s, but I can tell that each bar equates to a particular level. Most of my driving is rural/highway with about 10% city when I need to go there. I try to watch which mode is active and do my best to keep the ICE icon from displaying. I am quite pleased with my mileage so far. My best has been 29.8mpg and the worst has been 26.4. Even though the car calculates average mpg, I figure mine manually with each fillup. Of course it's very tempting to nail the go pedal on occasion since this baby can really move out but it does affect overall mpg as you may know!

    Best regards -

    M. J. McCloskey
  • joe540cijoe540ci Member Posts: 17
    Does anyone know when the new Highlander will be available ???
  • jmpage2jmpage2 Member Posts: 268
    The 2008 was originally supposed to show up in July but the last word is that the internal combustion engine unit is now going to be arriving at dealer showrooms in August. Don't expect the 2008 hybrid to show up until September at the earliest.

    If the hybrid is as big of a hit as toyota thinks it's going to be it's going to be a long waiting list to get one and they won't be discounting from sticker.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yes the first ICE's will arrive in July but the bulk of them will begin arriving in August. The very first ones are probably just beginning to ship from the factory.

    The Hybrid versions will be along about 60 days later.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I keep seeing reference to a 4 cylinder HH. The Toyota website says the 2008 HH is a 3.3L V6. Isn't that the same as the current HH?
    With an additional 500LBs what do you suppose the mileage will drop to?

    http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/future/index.html
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I had hoped for a 4c ultra efficient HH but that seems to be for another vehicle ( Prius Utility Vehicle? ). From the press release it appears that the effective horsepower and fuel economy of the new 2008 HH are unchanged even with the 500# of additional weight and larger dimensions. Nice trick if they can do it.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    The release says the horsepwer is 270-hp, not much more than the current 268-hp. Very good to see there is no horse-power race with GM or Honda or BMW.

    This one can drive the first mile at low speed on electric-only before turning on the gas engine. Right there will save us about 0.1 to 0.3 MPG over our '06. It is also able to tow 5000-lbs, so they must have hardened its body and tweaked the software and use better batteries (?). With the "smaller" horsepower, may be it can get similar mileage to the '06 and '07. We just have to see.

    If the MPG number they post is done with the 2008 method, this will be a significant increase, it could do better than the '06 and '07. if it is done with current EPA standards, then nothing has changed. It is unclear in the news release.

    Wait and see.......
  • kim19kim19 Member Posts: 2
    The main difference I see is in the way the interior space is used. The second row console can be removed (and replaced), so that you can have a second row bench seat, or two non-removable captain chairs, and a pass through to the third row. Also, the third row folds down, so when you don't need it, you have extra space in the back. For me this is important because I have kids with car seats, and as you know, you can't always fit three car seats across a bench (depends on the car seat), and if you have a baby and need to get inside, well, the bench is impractical. Also, it is easier to load three kids into two rows with a pass through than a bench. They don't have to wait outside the car while the other ones get into their seat; the one in the back gets in first, and the other two follow immediately.

    The Dodge Durango Hybrid has captain chairs and a third row, but the gas mileage is not as good. The Chrysler Aspen 2008 Hybrid Hemi will also have bucket seat options for the second row, but I doubt that the gas mileage will be as good as the Highlander.

    A lot of people, who have the "07 want MP3 player access, and Bluetooth technology. If you don't need the third row, you may want to look at the Saturn Vue Green Line Hybrid; you can get it all decked out, and still pay less less than the Highlander. The main draw back is that their '07 SUV isn't 4WD.

    Others to look at: Chevy Tahoe Hybrid 2008; Jeep Liberty Diesel; Mazda Tribute Hybrid; Lexus RX 400H

    Toyota should be looking at how to make the Highlander their, AWD, hybrid, family vehicle--sort of like the Sienna, but with AWD capabilities, so that those of us who live in the mountains and need an AWD SUV, but also need to put three young children in car seats have space and power with good gas mileage.
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