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Toyota Highlander Hybrid

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    volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    So do the HY's not do well with short drives? My understanding was that short distance city driving is their forte. Am I wrong on this, or is it simply an issue of short trips are always bad for mileage - ICE or HY? Were you using a block heater? I've read that can significantly improve performance of the HY.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yes short trips are bad for all ICE vehicles. Hybrids are primarily ICE vehicles. Hybrids do very well when the entire vehicle ( ICE, cabin, catalytic converter ) are at optimal operating temperatures. This allows the ICE to shutdown or shut off for periods of time. The battery and motor can then power the vehicle alone. But the ICE has to get everything up to temp first.
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    p38lightp38light Member Posts: 4
    Why is that the Fuel Gauge and Cruising Range move more slowly from full to half then they do from half to empty or zero? I've noticed this on several cars I have owned, both Toyota and domestics.
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Toyota hybrids are designed to get really GREAT FE in city stop and go traffic in comparison to "normal" ICE vehicles.

    If there is no opportunity to recover energy "stored" in the mass of the vehicle via it being in motion then the Toyota Hybrid synergy drive system has very little advantage. Energy recovery via regenerative braking occurs only during coastdown and braking periods. For mostly freeway, primarily cruising at a set speed, you would be better off with a non-hybrid vehicle.
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    kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Your last statement is inaccurate for two reasons.

    The HSD system offers the Toyota models the opportunity to use the more efficient Atkinson cycle while cruising on the highway.
    In addition while highway driving is normally at a constant high speed it is not uniformly an accelerating speed. There are periods of highway driving during deceleration or during lessened load on the ICE that the battery/e-motor assists the ICE and thereby saves fuel.

    The proof is that the Prius is more efficient on the highway than both the Corolla and the Camry.
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    But the Atkinson cycle engine is not unique to the THSD concept, and not used at all in the V6 THSD versions. It is also used in the Millenia S for the FE advantage but upgraded to Miller cycle via the use of an SC.

    Yes, on the hwy the THSD will often use the electrics for BOOST for even the slightest level of acceleration. But then the battery must be recharged via the ICE and that increases the loss factor.

    I suspect that if a switch were provided wherein the driver could choose to live with slower "ICE only" acceleration on the hwy the hwy FE would improve dramatically.
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    chadxchadx Member Posts: 153
    Hybrids do get better mileage on the highway than non-hybrids, so the arguement that one would be "better off getting a non-hybrid if you do primarily hwy driving" may not pan out.

    Looking at the specs of a vehicle that is offered in both non-hybrid and hybrid, the Toyota Camry, the specs say this:

    2008 4 cylinder, automatic trans.:
    Mileage Estimates: city 21 mpg / hwy 31 mpg;

    2008 Hybrid:
    Mileage Estimates: city 33 mpg / hwy 34 mpg;

    --------
    This proves true, though to a lesser degree, with the Highlander as well:

    2008 Highlander 3.5L v6:
    Mileage Estimates: 18 mpg / 24 mpg;

    2008 Highlander Hybrid:
    Mileage Estimates: 27 mpg / 25 mpg;

    Granted there are ICE-only vehicles that you can purchase that get better hwy mileage than the 34mpg Camry hybrid, but then, the '08 Prius is rated at Mileage Estimates: city 48 mpg / hwy 45 mpg, and few non-hyrid cars can compete with that hwy mpg rating. That carries over for the highlander hybrid. How many SUV can compete with the hybrid mileage?

    On a related subject, there is definitely a fall-off on winter mileage with a hybrid, but there is mpg drop-off on a non-hybrid as well. And note that the winter mileage on a Prius, even for short trips, is still much higher than the winter mileage of a non-hybrid for short trips. I would think the same would hold true for the HH compared to other SUVs and to it's non-hybrid self, too.
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I assume those are EPA estimates as our '03 Prius w/35k has gotten a pretty consistent city only 42MPG. Not sure how closely that will relate to a Camry hybrid.

    It's been pretty clean from the get-go that the EPA estimates are aways off the mark for hybrids.

    I've only had the Prius on a hwy trip once, ~300 miles round trip, and I remember the MPG being pretty disappointing in comparison to city.
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I assume those are EPA estimates as our '03 Prius w/35k has gotten a pretty consistent city only 42MPG. Not sure how closely that will relate to a Camry hybrid.

    It's been pretty clear from the get-go that the EPA estimates are aways off the mark for hybrids.

    I've only had the Prius on a hwy trip once, ~300 miles round trip, and I remember the MPG being pretty disappointing in comparison to city.
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    volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Well I did test drive loops of both the reg. Highlander and the Hybrid. Did the work-home leg. Wait 20 mins then home-work and back to the dealer which is less than a mile away. Both vehicles were cold and hadn't been driven for 2 days. Temp was 34F, but that was the high for the day and it had been sub-freezing for close to 24hrs preceding the test (10F overnight). Around here, we call that Spring weather. ;-)
    Results come only from the on-board computer readings which I know aren't perfectly accurate but they are all I had. Hit all the same lights as luck would have it, although I did have to go through amber for one and slow down a little early to stop at another to keep it even.
    Hybrid 10.6L/100km (22.1 mpg) and I forgot to set to ECON mode for the drive from work to home.
    Highlander Limited 16L/100km (14.6 mpg).
    Both were as expected well below EPA but the relative economy difference was maintained. That would mean about $800 per year gas savings at current prices for us on top of the gov't rebate and tax break. It actually makes the HY financially worthwhile in less than 5 years of use .
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    stanwagonstanwagon Member Posts: 15
    My "lifetime" MPG is for 2000 miles all at high altitude and in generally cold weather, and on hills. And the reading is about 23.3. I expect much better in summer, though I will drive it less. Unlike the Prius, the panel tells you lifetime MPG and MPG since last fillup (one can reset the lifetime to start over if one wants).

    Another note: The "Cruising Range" tells how many miles more one can drive. I believe when that is 0 one would still have about 1.5 gallons in the tank. My last fillup the cruising range was down to 2 miles left and the tank took 14.55 gals, when capacity is, I think, 17.2. Hmm.. maybe 16.2? I am out of town and cannot check. But it seems like one can easily drive to cruising range of 0 with no fear of running out of gas.
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Nothing in the owner's manual indicates that reverse is all electric."

    The HSD is only geared for forward motion. Reverse is electric. You might check the Prius board for a further discussion.
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    hlanderhlander Member Posts: 31
    I want to know that how do the tire pressures display in Mult Information Display. What indicate which?

    I maen the top tire pressure in display represent Front Left Wheel or what?

    If somebody know, please share with me.

    Thanks.
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    stanwagonstanwagon Member Posts: 15
    I believe there is no correlation. This must be because the data comes from a coded transmitter on the tire, which could be moved to another location.
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    hlanderhlander Member Posts: 31
    That mean the tire pressures display in the Multi Functional Display randomly and if there is some warning about tire pressure we may not know right away which tire is going bad. And it's hard to read spare tire pressure with tire pressure guage.

    Anyway , thanks for your reply Stanwagon.
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    monte8monte8 Member Posts: 75
    1. The Prius is FWD while the HH is AWD.
    2. I can tell at times that the ICE is powering the front wheels while in reverse.
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    cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    On our '06 HH AWD, the energy flow display shows the hybrid battery pack driving all four wheels when reversing. The ICE comes on to charge the battery pack when necessary. We have never yet seen the display showing the ICE driving the wheels when reversing. The display may not show complete info, that's possible or '07-'08 HH may be different.
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    " I can tell at times that the ICE is powering the front wheels while in reverse."

    Just because the ICE is running does not mean it is providing power to the rear wheels.

    Take a look under the vehicle and see if there is a transfer case attached to the rear wheels, or if there are electric motors. I suspect you will find the latter.

    The HSD is a completely different system than the transmission / engine used in the conventional HH.
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    monte8monte8 Member Posts: 75
    "Take a look under the vehicle and see if there is a transfer case attached to the rear wheels, or if there are electric motors. I suspect you will find the latter. "

    Of course the ICE does not drive the rear wheels, there is no transfer case or drive shaft to the rear. However, that does not mean that the ICE cannot power the front wheels in reverse. How would you drive this car if the traction battery pack failed (something I hope does not happen for 200K miles or so)? Do you think Toyota would produce a vehicle without the ability for the ICE to back the car?

    Or even more simply, if the traction battery is below the cutoff point for use (40% charge?), the ICE would power the front wheels.
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    cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Unless Toyota has changed the HSD behavior in the '07, '08 models, the HH cannot run on ICE alone. If the Hybrid Battery pack dies, so dies the car.

    If the traction battery is way low (two red bars on the energy flow display, 25%), the ICE will charge the battery and power the car simultaneously. In some situation, the ICE is so busy powering the car, it takes forever to recharge the battery. This has happened often to us on uphill climb either at low speed or high speed.

    Last night, we ran the charge down to two red bars and had to reverse uphill to drop off some gear. As I did the reverse, the ICE stayed on but the energy flow diagram stopped showing any trace of power flows. Identical to what it does when I shift into NEUTRAL. That means one of two things:

    (1) ICE is driving the front wheels in reverse. If so, why not just show it as it always does when the ICE drives the front wheels in forward motion and charging at the same time?

    (2) ICE is powering front wheels and battery pack is powering the rear wheels in reverse. Again, this is no different than when we are moving forward and climbing a steep grade at low speed. The ICE boosts the front, the battery pumps power to the rear. It has shown this countless times.

    (3) ICE is charging the battery like mad, the battery is powering ALL FOUR WHEELS like mad to go in reverse. There is no way to show this on the display without erroneously showing that the ICE is powering the front wheels. So the best approach is to show nothing.

    I am 90% sure that (3) is the case. Only the battery pack powers the four wheels (AWD version) in reverse.

    Not sure why this is such a critical topic though. I am not here to argue the point, just trying to provide observation.

    As long as the car will reverse nicely, I won't care if the ICE does it or the pack.

    Cheers!
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    volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Well the source of reverse power is important. I have a 4x8 utility trailer that I store next to my parents' garage. I have to back it up their steep driveway and then on grass, often loaded. Whether running on electric alone versus ICE power also and AWD versus only two could make a significant difference in available power for that situation. The HiHy would become the primary choice for tow vehicle for that unless it's only powering one electric motor in reverse.
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    cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Hi Volkov,

    Coincidentally, that was precisely what we did last night. Had to back a 4+ x 12 flatbed trailer uphill to unload. We had to pull it up a steep switchback that gains about 500+ ft in 0.2 mile first, it ran on battery where it could and that depleted the battery to 25%. About 2000 lb gross for this load. We have gone as high as 2500 lb but that is max because our old trailer cannot handle more. The reverse uphill at the end was not too bad, it gains only about 3 ft for the length of the car and the trailer.

    I have never tried reversing it up anything steeper though because this old trailer is just long enough to make me uncomfortable. You can check the torque specification and see what it says.

    For a 4x8 trailer, I imagine the loaded gross will be around 1500 lb? if so, that is well within the car's spec. I will strongly suggest using good trailer tires if there are slick grass. We use GY Wrangler but whatever brands that provide toughness and strong traction will do.

    For the HH, AWD is absolutely essential in this case because I want powered traction on all wheels especially where we work. It is often loose gravel, dirt or tall slick grass. Good SUV or truck tires is a must. Van-type tires will just spin on tall grass and slide downhill. If your HH stock tires are van tires, best to replace them ASAP. We had to do that to ours.

    Hope this experience helps a bit.
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    stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    " However, that does not mean that the ICE cannot power the front wheels in reverse. How would you drive this car if the traction battery pack failed (something I hope does not happen for 200K miles or so)? Do you think Toyota would produce a vehicle without the ability for the ICE to back the car? "

    I think this may have been answered, but yes; the Prius cannot use the ICE to back the vehicle. It is electric only.

    Also, the HSD will not operate if the traction battery fails. You must have the hybrid battery or the car won't operate. This is the reason there is so much concern about how long the traction batteries will last...
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    Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter hopes to speak with consumers who want to buy hybrid SUVs that are having a hard time finding them at dealerships and/or are frustrated by dealers marking up the prices on the hybrids. If you are a consumer looking to purchase a hybrid SUV, please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information no later than Tuesday, March 25, 2008.
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    ssachnoffssachnoff Member Posts: 33
    I love reading these old messages where people were debating getting a hybrid Highlander based on $2.20 gas. Ah, for the good old days!!!!
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    ssachnoffssachnoff Member Posts: 33
    I have this vanity plate in IL
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    ssachnoffssachnoff Member Posts: 33
    My question is do the after-market window cover thingies actually help reduce this vibration noise? I've seen them on many a HH and have wanted to ask the drivers this question but haven't had the chance. I'd sure like to know before I drop a few bills on the 4 piece set. :confuse:
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    ssachnoffssachnoff Member Posts: 33
    ECOSUV
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    No.
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    vinnyd13vinnyd13 Member Posts: 9
    Krypto, just out of curiosity , what Thule Box are you using?. I am trying to find one that doesn't interfere with the rear spoiler on my Highlander Sport.

    Thanks in advance.
    Vince
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    hydro4hydro4 Member Posts: 2
    I have a 2007 HH with a little over 6K miles. Two problems have recently occurred and i would just like to know if they have happened to anyone else. 1) The little spring loaded flap on the fuel filler neck is missing and i think it has gotten lodged in the filler neck. When i try to fill the tank, its takes forever because the gas backs up in the line and shuts off the pump nozzle. Might this also be a safety hazard?

    2) This problem is more mundane, but just as irritating. The radio will drift off of the station (The JBL set-up that came with the Limited trim). Most of the time it will tune itself back in, but not always. This happens when in motion and at a dead stop.

    Anybody else have one of these problems?
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    That "flap" was used to prevent someone from fueling a non-lead car with leaded fuel. With no more leaded fuel available the flap became useless and was discarded for most designs years ago.

    I find that to prevent premature fuel flow shutoff with my RX I must not insert the fuel dispensing nozzle fully into the filler pipe neck.

    Are you by chance referring to the "picket-fence" effect, rapid loss and regain of the signal, common to mobile FM radio recievers..?
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    stevegoldstevegold Member Posts: 185
    I just checked my 2004 Prius, with which I did have a fuel filling problem for the first time this winter, and my 2007 HH (no fueling problems).
    Neither has the filler neck flap, just a hole for the nozzle. I do not remember if there was ever a flap on either.
    I will inspect some other cars. If the Prius is supposed to have a flap, then that's the cause of my recent problem even thought the problem is now gone, the flap must be in there somewhere, and hard to get out.
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    newsy2newsy2 Member Posts: 2
    My car has 1400 miles. Today I heard on and off a whistling noise coming from the back of the car. I was on a dirt road for a short period of time before the sound occured. I can't tell if it was related to the engine or something in the rear wipers or something else.
    the sound did go away after a while. i'm not sure if it will stay away.
    any thoughts?
    thanks/
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    cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    When our 2006 HH runs on full-electric mode (ICE off), it has a soft high pitch whirl/purr, almost could pass for a whistle. THat may be what you are hearing?

    If you have the energy display, see if the sound returns when the car is in full electric mode.
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    sxnhesxnhe Member Posts: 4
    Hello, I just got a 2006 Highland hybrid with 42000 miles. I went through the owner's maunal and did not see maintenance schedule. I am wondering if there is a seperate manual for the maintenance schedule. Or can I find it somewhere in the web? Thanks for help.
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    hydro4hydro4 Member Posts: 2
    Perhaps the better question should have been "is there supposed to be a little spring-loaded flap in the fuel filler neck in the HiHy?" I don't recall seeing one, but i never checked before. I think another possibility would be a supposed "fuel bladder" misplacement? I've tried all kinds of ways to get the nozzle positioned in the filler, but nothing seems to work.

    The radio problem is frequent and random, and it just started occurring a couple of weeks ago. I would think that if it were standard RFI i would have noticed it before. Maybe not! Thanks loads for the replies!
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    nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Your radio problem sounds like the attenna connection has broken some how, or come out of the port. How to check that, I do not know, as I do not have one of these fine automobiles, but what you're describing sounds like weak signal. The antenna hasn't broken off or been stolen, has it?
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    cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Yes, there is a separate booklet that has the maintenance schedule. Try the following Toyota link:

    http://smg.toyotapartsandservice.com/index.php

    You can enter model, year and mileage and it shows the recommended service. It is not precise but it will help.

    Good luck!
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    cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Just want to add that I can hear the "whirl/whistle" at lower speed when the ICE and the electric motors are both ON. This happens when the motor is helping the ICE to move the car along.
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    newsy2newsy2 Member Posts: 2
    I just realized my 2nd spare key doesn't work on my new 2008 highlander. it's a new car, and i never tried it before. today is sunday, so tomorrow. i'll call toyota. the dealer is 1000 miles from my house. but any thoughts?
    thanks
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    mtairyordgemtairyordge Member Posts: 144
    Let us know what kind of mileage you get driving to and from the dealership to get the key replaced.
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    lglwizardlglwizard Member Posts: 5
    When I started looking for 08 Highlander Hybrid Limiteds in the Jacksonville, Florida area back in March of this year, I had no problem locating vehicles on dealer lots. Now that I am actually ready to buy one, there are almost no vehicles on dealer lots, and dealers do seem to be unwilling to discuss deals because of the apparent increase in the demand for hybrids of all kinds. The dealers like to tell stories about there being 1000 Priuses available 30-60 days ago, and now there are allegedly "100 in country." I'm not sure I believe the figures, but the point is obvious. Sales figures are down for all vehicles EXCEPT hybrids.

    I am wondering if there is a lag (say of at least a month or two) between the month that sales occur and when Edmunds calculates its TMV because the TMV has trended down since March in my area while the selection of vehicles has significantly decreased and demand has escalated. There also seems to be a conflict between Edmunds TMV data and the Kelly Blue Book "new car blue book value" which purports to reflect what people are actually paying for the vehicle. KBB says people are paying MORE than MSRP for Hi Hy Ltds, whereas Edmunds says TMV is approximately 3,500 less. I understand that Edmunds data is supposed to be more targeted (my zip code vs. nation wide), but I still find the discrepancy interesting.

    In my area Edmunds seems to be closer to the truth. The vehicles are hardER to come by, but dealers are not demanding or getting more than MSRP.

    I was able to negotiate a deal (waiting for actual vehicle) on a Ltd with Nav, Sunroof, and dual front/auto rear A/C, for $800 over invoice, which in my area worked out to about three grand under MSRP. I tried to get in under TMV, but the dealers were not having it.

    Anyone else care to share recent purhasing experiences?
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    wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "...was able to negotiate a deal (waiting for actual vehicle)......"

    Unless you have an IRON CLAD contract you may be in for a long wait...

    What's to keep the dealer, what are the "penalties" for selling the vehicle to the higher bidder once it arrives...??

    The dealer gets to place a hybrid order above his factory quota in a "hot" market.
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    shovelhdshovelhd Member Posts: 6
    Most of the pricing info is in the pricing thread. :) I paid $400 over invoice for a base with PP + a few options. Out here in the Northeast, dealers have very few HH's. I had to drive two hours to get one at this price. They were sold out in my immediate area. Within 50 miles I was able to find a few but they were holding onto MSRP. Within 100 miles there were more, but still few. My dealer had 8 total and they're the largest volume Toyota dealer in the country. 6 were Limited, two were base, and the two base sold on the same day. Base models are tough to get.
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    soonercatsoonercat Member Posts: 48
    I had to go to Kansas Region where HH inventory was about 20 on various dealer interconnected inventory pages. Oklahoma had zero, none, --I found one 90 miles north in rural Kansas and did an internet deal for MSRP-$2500. This was fine. MSRP was $45,900 with AC upgrades, NAVI, exhaust tip, mud guards and driver passeger tint.
    Got the purple one. My wife loves it. First tank has been amazing at 29 mpg currently 300 miles. :shades:
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    ginostefginostef Member Posts: 3
    I just picked up a brand new HiHy 08, with the C package, Nav, etc. mudflaps, running boards, Cypress Pearl and ash leather interior. Has everything but the moon roof and trailer hitch. I paid $42K for it, while MSRP was close to $49K. This is Northern Virginia, where using a hybrid generally means riding HOV and commuting 35+ miles one way is a fact of life. So - hy's are in hy demand. My 2004 Prius, loaded, black, just sold for 17K. When I started looking there were plenty of Highlander's around, and now there are a bit less, but every dealer has at least a few. Hang in there - it ain't so bad everywhere.
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    ginostefginostef Member Posts: 3
    You need to have car learn the key fob - check you owner's manual - simple procedure. Good luck.
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    ginostefginostef Member Posts: 3
    My 2004 Prius averaged 45mpg with most of that in highway driving at 75mph+. I can't complain - I don't drive it especially different, except to learn how not to accelerate like a jack rabbit and to perhaps get off the gas a bit earlier to coast. I've had high tanks of 52, and low of 39 (winter heat takes a lot of ICE).
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    t_mooneyt_mooney Member Posts: 5
    I have a 2007, maybe they fixed this in 2008? You can't use the Nav system to locate an address or gas station while you're rolling. I understand the need to pay attention to driving, but the pasenger should be able to do it! If the airbag switch is on, indicating there is an adult passenger, you should be able to use the Nav system. It is SO freaking dangerous to stop on some 70 MPH roads with a narrow shoulder and tractor trailers flying by you, but Toyota needlessly forces you into this dangerous situation thinking they're keeping you safe. All the nanny bureaucrats don't work for the government.
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