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Hybrid Honda Accord

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote e-Troy-"Accord 6-cylinder w/ 3-cylinder eco-mode = 37 mpg w/o a battery"

    That mode for that particular car does not exist....the non-hybrid V6 accord is rated 21/30 - cannot use VCM...
  • "That mode for that particular car does not exist...."

    I didn't say it did. But it COULD exist. That's my point. If Honda can use the same lean-burn tech as the Civic Hybrid, in a *non*hybrid, then they can do the same with VCM.

    troy
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Civic Diesel is not rated at US 50 miles per gallon - only 37 mpg USA:

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/12/comparing_civic.html
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    You refuse to think about the non-hybrid possibilities.

    I still remember my friend's Honda CRX. Maybe the most fun car to drive that I can remember. And it was capable of 50 mpg.
  • ...I was supplying the data for the NEW civic diesel w/ re-designed engine = 54mpg

    troy
  • It's obvious that the folks on this board are biased towards hybrid. No matter what, you argue that a car MUST be hybridized. You refuse to think about the non-hybrid possibilities. That's close-minded. I own an Insight Hybrid, but even I can recognize that I could still get 90mpg highway, without the battery. I'm open-minded enough to think about the "what if" scenarios.

    I recommend the rest of you try thinking *outside* the hybrid box, instead of constantly playing the "hybrid... hybrid... hybrid" record over-and-over. There's more to life than just hybrids. Like Accords & Civics that are NOT hybrids, but still get >35 mpg:

    Alternatives:
    =========
    Civic Diesel = 54 mpg highway
    Accord Diesel = 44 mpg highway

    Technology borrowed from Hybrids:
    ==========================
    Accord 6-cylinder w/ 3-cylinder eco-mode = 37 mpg w/o a battery
    Civic HX Lean-Burn = 50 mpg w/o a battery

    troy
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    What good does it do US as consumers to think out of the box, when "in the box" solutions are right in front of us ?

    I don't see any reason why Honda does not want to put VCM in all it's 6 cylinder cars, but even if they WOULD, it would STILL not be as efficient as their existing Hybrids......So what's the point of doing it?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    Civic Diesel is not rated at US 50 miles per gallon - only 37 mpg USA:

    Honda must be way behind in diesel technology then. The heavier VW Jetta TDI wagon is a consistent 45-50 mpg car. The much heavier Passat TDI automatic is a consistent 37 mpg car. Also the Civic is using decades old Isuzu diesel engines. And maybe the greencarcongress is a bit biased toward hybrids.
  • I don't know.

    But it's still fun to BE alive. Likewise, it's fun to think about "what if" hybrid technology (lean-burn/3-cylinder mode) was applied to non-hybrid cars. "What if the Non-hybrid Accord was equipped with a 3-cylinder mode? Would it still get 37mpg highway"?

    I think yes.

    Now stop spoiling my fun Lars. Let me live.

    .

    The NEW civic diesel is rated at 54 mpg highway... higher than the hybrid version.
    The NEW accord diesel is rated at 44 mpg highway... higher than the hybrid version.

    troy
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    Honda does not want to put VCM in all it's 6 cylinder cars

    I was interested in the Odyssey with V6 VCM engine. The owners posting on Edmund's are not showing great numbers for mileage. Under 20 mpg is not what I call great mileage.
  • That's an un-controlled, non-scientific method. You should compare the scientifically-rigorous MPG tests:

    Odyssey with VCM = 28 mpg highway. That's +16% more fuel economy.

    And no need for a battery.

    Honda could do the same with an Accord V6 (non-hybrid), enabling a 3-cylinder VCM mode, and get 36 mpg highway! No need to add a battery.

    troy
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,749
    It's obvious that the folks on this board are biased towards hybrid.

    Uh, yeah, that would be expected given the subject of the discussion: Honda Accord Hybrid. For instance, when I go to the Mazda3 discussion, I expect the people in there to be interested in talking about the Mazda3--not alternatives to the Mazda3. It's curious to me why the hybrid discussions--the discussions dedicated to discussions of particular hybrid models--turn out to be debating forums for alternatives. There's plenty of other outlets for those kinds of discussions.
  • azhahazhah Posts: 82
    "The way the Accord Hybrid works when you demand acceleration:
    ---(first) Deactivate 3-cylinder mode... go to 6-cylinder mode.
    ---(last) Turn on IMA.
    There's no such thing as a 3-cylinder+IMA mode"

    Sorry, this is simply wrong!

    I have tried it MANY times and it documented in the IMA supplement to the driver's manual. When cruising in ECO the first to activate on light to moderate throttle is the IMA. If more power is needed the IMA stays on and the ECO THEN goes off. I, again have seen ECO on with IMA indication followed by untirupted ECO mode upon release of the increased throttle. I can reporduce it any time. This functions also occur at lower speeds but is a little harder to regulate. In almost all circumstances the IMA provides additional power when an increase in throttle possition is detected. After a little practice it is possible to stay in ECO mode almost all the time (at speed) with the IMA coming on and off as needed.

    If you still don't believe me read the last line from this quote from Honda News:

    http://www.hondanews.com/CatID2128?mid=2004091737214&mime=asc

    "When the driver minimizes accelerator input at cruising speed, a number of fuel saving operations begin. First, the Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) system can deactivate the engine's rear bank of three cylinders to effectively cut fuel consumption in half. At the same time, the IMA's Intelligent Power Unit turns the IMA motor into a generator to begin regenerative braking and the IMA display's green bars illuminate to show the level of electrical energy being created. If, during cruising, power is required to maintain speed, the IMA motor will offer assist while the rear cylinders remain inactive."
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    I think variable displacement motors by themselves only offer a MODEST mileage increase at cruise. The numbers I have seen for those w/o an electric assist motor do not seem that great (VS standard gas motors). It makes sense the shutting off the 3 cylinders and leaving them off as long as possible would be better than having to fire them up everytime a little more power was needed.

    So if Honda used the same V-6 w/o the IMA drive I don't think you would see nearly has high an increase in highway MPG.

    Dennis
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Troy,

    I am with you. Another posbility is higher gearing. This could apply to standards and automatics. Look at the tall gear a Corvette has to achieve 25 mpg highway.

    While VCM is currnetly only applied to the HAH and the Odessey, there is nothing to suggest that it wouln't work with ALL v6s.

    I think maybe the reasons the auto-stop, IMA, better CD, low rolling resistant tires, weight minimization ( no spare , no sunroff), VCM, tall gearing , desel (future), 6 pseed manual (future) are all religated only to the HAH is to make it more dramatic. There was one very good previous analysis that indicated how much each component contributed to the mileage gain.

    But from a sales standpoint, If you are a Honda executive and could sell a HAH for $,3000 more or could add only VCM to an existing V6 and achieve 15% better mileage (30+15% =34.5 mpg) for $300 Do you think a VCM V6 would cut into or completlely eliminate the HAH sales ?

    Likewise Honda could have gone the slow route that Toyota did but Honda has already seen that high mileage isn't the only thing people want or the HCH would be selling better and Honda wouldn't be dropping the Insight.

    Much of the mpg acieved by Hondas earlier high mpg cars was through wide gear spacing. However, this was never applied to the whole car line most were left with a very low high gear around 20 mile per thousand RPMs.

    For a good glimpse of Hondas vision of the future look at the direction the 2006 Civic is going :) or their European diesel direction.

    YMMV, MidCow
  • azhahazhah Posts: 82
    ...Is the fact that the IMA component does more than provide increased mileage!

    It adds a lot more torque at low end and more power through the whole power band.

    Sip...sip...sip...VROOOOOM!

    Accord Hybrid ROCKS!!!

    :P
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    If you search this thread is shows most of this has already been discussed before.

    Anyway, I knew somewhere (#594) it was posted how much each component contributed to the HAH mileage gain. It was :


    To break down efficiency gained by HAH in city and highway combined over EX-V6:

    IMA: 17%
    Idle Stop: 5%
    VCM: 10%
    Aerodynamic: 1%
    Overall: 33%(margin of error: 2%)



    RTFT,

    MidCow
  • azhahazhah Posts: 82
    Good post MidCow!

    It would be inetersting to see that broken down into different driving conditions. IE highway/city etc.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ET, you may be an engineer but you are not a hybrid engineer by far. As has been posted, the AH uses IMA to maintain VCM and this does add a bit of FE on top of VCM itself. Auto-stop and assist also help the AH receive far better FE then its V6 brethren in the city and can run circles around it in the performance arena.

    With that, we have three AH owners with > 39 mpg segments now and two were in IL. and WI. within the past few days. These AH’s are not only new, they still have a few more mpg’s to be rung from them with warmer weather. What more needs to be said? A hypermiler could squeeze 40 out of the V6 but 2 of the three of these AH pilots are not hypermilers but are simply new AH owners. Care to find an Accord V6 anywhere that has received 39 mpg over a lengthy segment?

    Midnightcowboy, the ball is in your court. When you hit 39 mpg, let us know.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,815
    "Odyssey with VCM = 28 mpg highway. That's +16% more fuel economy.

    And no need for a battery.

    Honda could do the same with an Accord V6 (non-hybrid), enabling a 3-cylinder VCM mode, and get 36 mpg highway! No need to add a battery."

    I owned a 2002 Honda Odyssey, 3.5L, 240 HP. I got 27 MPG on the highway. Only about 18-19 in town. No VCM on that model! I think there is something wrong with the software programming for the VCM on the 2005 models. They do not seem to be increasing the mileage to any significant amount.
  • mevandemevande Posts: 190
    I think auto manufacturers need to think even further out side the box re: technologies. Hybrids are a good start. I think more R&D w/ help from US goverment needs to get cars in the 70 plus mpg or more. Hydrogen and other technologies must be explored. We need to get our economy (as much as possible) out of the Arab's control. :)
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    The serious answer is mass transit, which the US is very very poor at FULLY and EFFECTIVELY implemented. The governement maybe, but what do car manufacturers have to gain ? They look for increased sales and distinguishing their vehicles from the rest. Customers want performance and features which are counter to high mpg. Twenty (20) years ago we had 50 mpg cars, but now we have big SUVS and performance sedans. Hybrids and high mileage vehicles are less than 1% of total vehicles. You really think we are trying to become independent of Arab oil ?

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    They let the manufacturers decide what is a "car" and what is a "truck" and then have lower CAFE numbers for "trucks". Then they don't even count really heavy "trucks" at all toward CAFE (Hummer, etc). They let folks like MB merge with Chrysler and then combine the numbers so that MB does not have to pay any CAFE fines for failing to meet standard - the Mopar cars bring up the average. No gas guzzler tax on a "truck" either. Congress bends to pressure of the auto industry and does not raise CAFE standard.

    The manufactures love SUVs since they make maybe 2x per unit that they make on a car.

    If we have < $2 gas and the manufacturer is not paying heavy CAFE fines that should raise the price of the heavy SUVs and trucks there is not much incentive to NOT buy them.

    If we have to have high gas prices, and it is going to get more expensive later on this year, then the side benefit may be to slow the sale of guzzlers and stimulate sales of more economical cars.

    "Mass transit" where I live is just pitiful and is about only used by the poor, the folks who have lost their license, and the few folks that work right downtown.

    Dennis
  • vietviet Posts: 847
    I just put a rather new low mile engine/ transmission in my 95 Accord EX after 200K miles and it runs so perfectly, so beautifully.

    Following is my list of happiness for today:

    1- My ultimate Heaven: Brand new Accord Hybrid 2005 at 2100 miles.

    2- My second Heaven: Accord V6 EX Coupe 2003 at 25K miles.

    3- My third Heaven: Accord V6 EX Sedan 2002 at 27K miles.

    4- My lovely baby/ fourth Heaven on earth: Accord I4 EX 1995 (with 1996 engine/ transmission at less than 20K miles, 4 new brakes, 4 new tires, new AC freon, just washed and "pampered" it this morning).

    I love this Accord I4 95 baby the most. He is so lovely, so dependent and so loyal to me during the last 10 years and 3 months. This baby has never broken down whatsoever in the last 10 years plus.

    Bravo Honda ! Honda Civic, Insight, Pilot. S2000, NSX, Element, Odessey, Accord, Accord hybrid...win again and again. I love my Honda fleet. Have a good weekend folks. All my Honda Accord keep purring and revving so proudly every single day, rain or shine.

    PS: Sorry if I have not provided you folks with better updates on my HAH. It runs so nicely and so fast. My MPG is always 30 - 40 plus. What should I ask for more for a 255 HP Accord which sips fuel just a little tiny? When Honda says 255 HP it means 255 HP or more. I have been "insane" with my HAH and all my other Accord.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Viet,

    I like your enthusiasm, have you ever thought about putting a Borla exhaust on you HAH. They really sound sweet. Quiet when you want it to be cruis'n and driving easy . Nice sound when you give it gas or WOT and it would add another 8hp to your 255 making 263 WOW!

    Cheers,

    MidCow,

    P.S. - BAD NEWS my first dent even though ooh so minor. Some Yahooh (not my real thought but you get the idea) at a Lowes, Had to slam open the door of his truck. You can barely see it But I know.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,749
    PDR would probably take care of that in a jiffy. Beware Eldorados and Monte Carlos.
  • vietviet Posts: 847
    My enthusiasm with Honda/ Accord does cost me lot of money and valuable time. I can drive my "reborn" Accord 1996 2.2 liters for another 8 - 10 years. But I probably will sell it to buy another new car when my finance position is a little bit more flexible. I was lucky to be able to buy a rather new Accord 1996 engine and transmission with less than 20K miles at a very good price to put in my "loyal baby". Now my "little baby" purs like a kitten. It accelerates and runs real smooth like new. It runs 80+ MPH on highway without vibration. Handling, maneuvering and cornering are all very good. Thanks to my excellent mechanic who spent 3 days to put in the new engine for me. Amazingly, its previous 10+ year old engine ran very smoothly until the end of its life when it burned oil and I decided to replace it. Otherwise I have to carry 2 quarts of oil in my trunk at all time.

    However, when I start the engine of my Accord hybrid it is quite different. The engine just VROOOOOOM and then it runs so quietly and unnoticeably just like AZHAH put it.

    I guess people cannot and should not just rebuild their old cars over and over to drive it for so long. The HAH's good low end torque is very much noticeable and "the thinner transmission" is very smooth. I get "ECO" light on very often even at 40 MPH. And the MPG is getting better after the break-in. I guess Honda hybrid engineers had to pull their hair real hard to come up with a very good design for that car.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    A nice 139 mile ride home in somewhat colder temps in a new friends AH yesterday … Believe me, she is good for even more with a few more miles and a bit warmer temperatures :D

    img src="http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1744&stc=1

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • blaneblane Posts: 2,017
    Wayne,

    What were the mileage results on the uphill leg, without the tailwind?
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Blane:

    There was no uphill or downhill as it was Madison, WI. to Gurnee, IL. The rolling hills in SE Wi. w/ an ~ 7 - 10 mph side wind held me too ~ 43 mpg give or take a few tenths. Once the hills were cleared, the FCD took off with an ~ 5 - 7 mph tailwind about 20 degrees off the rear. The FCD was still climbing fast over those last 50 miles vs. the first 90 miles as you can well imagine. Overall, expect to see a 55 mpg segment from someone in an AH sometime this summer in one with 10,000 + miles as this AH has here.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
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