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Comments
but the accord's accleration is in another league now isn't. and the escape is a small SUV.
Not when RX400H is suppose to get sub-8 seconds for 0-60mph and expecting to get around 34-38mpg.
Dennis
Accord Hybrid Auto: 3,501 lbs"
BTW, HAH "cheated" because it does not carry a spare tire.
Dennis
Its amazing how quickly Hybrid threads turn into Toyota's is best thread. Let us leave some for the intended purpose. Okay?
It's not about Toyota or Honda. I belive that HSD full hybrid design is better than a mild IMA hybrid. What I had also shown in that comparison is that a full hybrid scales better as the vehicles get larger and more powerful.
I'll be doing the same comparison when Nissan comes out with Altima HSD hybrid and Toyota with Camry HSD hybrid.
Dennis
This is a thread about the virtues of the HAH. If the sea guy and thre prius^2 have to talk about comparisons then I suggest starting another thread or two.
Please leave this0 one alone. You are off topic and your comments are not wanted.
usbseawolf2000, again and again, your knowledge of HSD impresses me, but your knowledge of Honda Hybrid technology is lacking... Please go research VCM and read your own statement again.
Yes, Ford Escape get about the same EPA, but it is based on an I4, not a 3.0 V6 like HAH.
RX400h is still behind the curtain. Why?
I am not trying to trash Toyota Prius. I personally respect the technology, but that is not my kind of vehicles. I also respect the HAH. Being able to reach 0-60mph in 6.0-6.5sec with 30/37mpg is respectable. I only wish HAH could have come with a stick shift.
No spare tire? Big deal. I carry repair kit in my BMW 540iA w/o spare tire. That's what some performance-driven people do. Maybe you wouldn't understand. A spare tire would add less than 50lb to the car. The fact that HAHs use 215 instead 205 could have offset that a bit already.
Biodiesel is the present, and ULSD is available. If you think they both stink your still in the past. Though Biodiesel does have a faint french fry odor from what I am told. And furthermore Honda did what they said they would never do and that is build a diesel engine. They must know something. I will also bet they sell more diesel cars world wide than hybrid.
Let's hear it. If you know about VCM, I welcome you to enlight me with this discussion.
"RX400h is still behind the curtain. Why?"
Toyota is doing an hornable thing by fulfilling Prius' demand first. Therefore, they delayed hybrid SUVs so they get more time to tune further. Go on to 400h board and you'll find info about 1 million miles drive test. Further discussion about it should be there.
"No spare tire? Big deal."
It is not a big deal. That's not the point. What keeps EX-V6 from doing the same to reduce weight. The point was IMA hybrid weight analysis.
Dennis
American market is different. There isn't a difference in cost of diesel to that of gasoline. Here, people want performance and powerful engine. Until now, that wasn't "shown" with hybrid offerings.
If diesel made sense, automakers would be rushing to capture that market as well. I'm not against diesel, but I like the direction hybrid technology is heading.
Isn't that better than greater wear on BOTH banks? ;-)
Good engineering covers such aspects in the design. Your worries are unwarranted. Oh, and you could just as well put it like this...
"one of the two banks will have less wear!"
Keep in mind that FEH is mostly based on the classic Prius technology. FEH's electric drivetrain isn't as powerful as it should of been. Just compare FEH's spec against Prius.
The fact that RX400H is going to use 120kW is in line with it's V6 ICE. 3.3L V6 has 220% higher displacement than Prius' 1.5L. 120kW electric motor is 240% more power than Prius' 50kW. Go to RX400H board for performance, fuel economy, and low emission estimates.
There won't be a clear comparison with HAH until Altima hybrid and Camry hybrid come out for sure.
Dennis
You are right. It is the uneven wear that bothers me a bit.
Dennis
How? Why?
I think there are a lot of other things that are bothering you right now than something Honda engineers have to have already covered.
Dennis,
You know that has to be hype. It would take over two years at 55 mph 24 hours a day to drive a vehicle 1,000,000 miles. That was hearsay from a Lexus salesman.
As far as VCM I would think the rings and bearings would show equal wear. What else would wear out. They could rotate the cylinders that get fuel and spark. I imagine Honda has that pretty well tested out.
And of course no spare tire will save some space for the battery, and a little weight too.
I thought this discussion was about the HAH overall--not just its virtues.
VW TDIs are selling quite well here in N. America. The E320 diesel appears to be doing quite well during its introduction. The advantage today with diesels are that they cost not much more than the equivalent gas models. This is in contrast to the hefty premiums prices charged for hybrids vs. gasoline models.
Honda engineers did not cover emission issue. HAH is the first blue hybrid, not green. The message that Honda is senting out about hybrids is that, you can have a little more performance and higher mpg but not lower emission. In any case, HAH has a much better image to me than those GM idle-stop trucks.
When a full hybrid can achieve all those three issues at once, the differences in potential between IMA and HSD need to be stated. My intentions were not to put down HAH to begin with but to offer a clear picture of what a real hybrid can offer.
To break down efficiency gained by HAH in city and highway combined over EX-V6:
IMA: 17%
Idle Stop: 5%
VCM: 10%
Aerodynamic: 1%
Overall: 33%(margin of error: 2%)
Acceleration time gained: 0.5 seconds
Emission: NONE
Dennis
My intentions were not to put down HAH to begin with but to offer a clear picture of what a real hybrid can offer.
___Then why did you say “What a real hybrid can offer”? There isn’t a Toyota Hybrid available that can receive > 100 mpg. There also isn’t a Toyota Hybrid available in PZEV or other form factor that can be purchased for < $20,000. In terms of the HAH directly, it is a much larger, much faster, and much more luxuriously equipped automobile then the Prius II. So whose real hybrid are you talking about?
___In direct competition with the HAH, the Prius II is the slowest in Toyota’s car lineup. The HAH is the fastest in its other then the sub 6 second S2000.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I realize that you lifted a portion of your post from the official Press web page and thanks for that, but as an engineering type I have a little trouble with the IMA torque statement for the HAH. And I feel that it needs to be challenged. The torque and the power do not match mathematically.
Earlier releases regarding the HCH IMA stated that it produced 36lbs-ft of torque at 2000 rpm.
This corresponds to 10kw of power. To which I agree.
But the following is probably a mistake :-
According to the latest press release for the new HAH IMA they say that for the Accord they have now doubled this torque from 46 to 100lbs-ft.
HuH! 46 where did that come from- wasnt it 36.
Not only that but that new torque figure of
100lbs-ft @ 2000 rpm computes closer to 30kw than the 12kw that the press release alludes to (it says 20% more power than HCH).
Just asking.
I am glad to see people are no longer using the word lame in reference to this IMA (they were mostly me), the politically correct word is of course- mild.
The following is probably not a mistake :-
Battery output density is up by 45% and battery assist power is up by 20% (compared to HCH).
Too bad these figures arent the other way round I would be more impressed !
Please provide the performance requirements.
JOHN
The criteria you mentioned is a complete mystery. Where did that come from?
___Sure, just check out Autosite and the performance reviews Toyota Avalon V6 w/ Auto: 0 - 60 in ~ 8.5 seconds. Toyota Camry I4 w/ Auto: 0 - 60 in ~ 9.5 seconds. Toyota Corolla I4 w/ Auto: 0 - 60 in ~ 9.8 seconds. Toyota Echo I4 w/ Auto: 0 - 60 in ~ 10.0 seconds. And finally, the slowest of all the Toyota cars is Toyota Prius II with a 0 - 60 time of ~ 10.5 seconds.
___I have never read of a Prius II receiving > 100 mpg yet I know of more then 10 Honda Hybrid’s that have. As for costing < $20,000, I know of two different Honda Hybrid models that have been purchased for less then this target price. I haven’t read of a Prius II going out for that price yet.
___In comparison to the HAH, a loaded up Prius II lacks quite a bit but it will receive better real world fuel economy and have lower overall emissions for ~ the same price. By how much and exactly what the HAH will come equipped with, we will have to wait and see
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The only Prius that sold for $20k was the ones they had a hard time selling at the very beginning. I would say you would be hard pressed to get a stripped Prius II for under $25k. I don't think any of the Honda dealers are having problems selling the $20k HCH, you just don't see the hype because of the celebrity factor surrounding the Prius. If what's his face had driven to the Oscars in a Civic Hybrid that is where all the press would be today.
As for MPG & Price, no criteria was provided, just a few non-average examples. Please provide specifics for vehicle class expections.
JOHN
But the following is probably a mistake :-
According to the latest press release for the new HAH IMA they say that for the Accord they have now doubled this torque from 46 to 100lbs-ft.
HuH! 46 where did that come from- wasnt it 36.
In Civic Hybrid, the peak torque rating for the manual transmission equipped electric motor is different from the same for CVT version.
CVT: 36 lb.-ft @ 1000 rpm
5MT: 46 lb.-ft @ 1000 rpm
Both have same peak power though (13.4 HP @ 4000 rpm). In case of Accord Hybrid, the electric motor is rated at 100 lb.-ft @ 840 rpm, so the peak torque output has more than doubled (the new electric motor is 8 mm thicker, up from 60 mm in HCH to 68 mm in HAH).
100lbs-ft @ 2000 rpm computes closer to 30kw than the 12kw that the press release alludes to (it says 20% more power than HCH).
The HCH electric motor’s maximum power output is 13.4 HP (4000 rpm), while the new motor is rated at 16 HP (840 rpm), and that is a 20% increase in peak power output (at a lower engine speed though).
In other words, you deem "class average" as the requirements. That's fine.
___I don’t know about class averages as I didn’t state any but I do know the Prius II is the slowest of the entire Toyota car lineup at ~ 10.5 seconds to 60 and proved it with what was written up already. The HAH on the other hand will be the second fastest of the entire Honda lineup (S2000 not withstanding) at ~ 6.5 seconds to 60. There isn’t any class averages about it. Plain facts and simple truths.
But shouldn't actual need have something to do with what we purchase?
___If that were the case, the Camry would have the Corolla ICE and achieve 0 - 60 in ~ the same time as the Prius II while achieving higher fuel economy. The Corolla would have the Prius II ICE minus the hybridization and achieve 0 - 60 in ~ the same time while achieving higher fuel economy. The Accord would have the Civic ICE and also achieve 0 - 60 in ~ the same time while achieving higher fuel economy as well. Most would also be driving manuals as they have a number of advantages not the least is of which is usually higher fuel economy and almost always faster acceleration performance. Most do not purchase their automobiles on need unfortunately or there wouldn’t be the need to sell 200 + HP automobiles today now would there.
As for MPG & Price, no criteria was provided, just a few non-average examples. Please provide specifics for vehicle class expections.
___I think 100 mpg or < $20,000 for a hybrid was explicitly stated given the nature of Usbseawolf2000’s statement about “real hybrids”. What you interpret as a “Real Hybrid” and its criteria is your own business. Those facts I have posted are very explicit and factual unlike whatever vague or unsubstantiated references you appear to be fishing for? In the case of the HAH, it is one very fast and very real hybrid. Cost effective? Probably not in the least unfortunately but it would be exciting to receive 50 mpg in a large and very comfortably equipped automobile with the performance capability of 0 - 60 in < 7 seconds day in and day out.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The actual message hybrid technology has a greater potential beyond the typical approach suggesting tunnel vision. That’s the kind of message I have been waiting for, for a few years.
With hybrid technology, you can gain performance and gain in fuel economy without giving up (and potentially, improving) emissions.
You still didn't provide specifics.
The topic of this thread is HAH. Is that what you are saying it must achieve? Or are you talking in general about any high efficiency vehicle? And shouldn't both be criteria, not just one or the other?
JOHN
You still didn't provide specifics.
___Yes, I have and did.
___Usbseawolf 2000 said the following:
“My intentions were not to put down HAH to begin with but to offer a clear picture of what a real hybrid can offer.”.
___So he wasn’t talking about the HAH but some other mythical hybrid? It sounded like the Prius II or Ford Escape HEV given the Insight and HCH use IMA in a similar manner as that of the HAH? We already know the Honda Insight w/ IMA achieves far better fuel economy then the HSD equipped Prius II or Escape HEV w/ 100 + mpg segments easily accomplished. The HCH cost less then $20K (Grandhonda.com --> “Click here for specials”), and the HAH is going to be ~ 66% faster to 60 then the lowly and slow Prius II and Escape HEV’s given it has a great performance ICE w/ IMA and VCM on board for even better fuel economy in both highway and city environments.
___I cannot tell what you asking? Do you want to know how IMA works, how IMA is implemented into the HAH, or what is the cost, fuel economy, or std. equipment of the HAH? I can answer many of these questions with a few loose ends so feel free to ask a question about the HAH instead of whatever you asked above?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Bravo, keep it on, make your lineage proud!
ksso
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I think it is more of a "my hybrid is better than your hybrid" show.
It fills the void waiting for these manufacturers to give out the real scoop and deliver the real cars.
I am not surprised with Honda developing the Hybrid Accord with an emphasis on performance. For better or for worse, Americans will tend to buy a 6.5 second 0-60 MPH vehicle with less efficiency vehicle before a 10.5 second 0-60 MPH vehicle with much greater efficiency. Honda is not being stupid with going with this track to introduce hybrids into the mainstream market. It is going to be priced in the entry-level luxury market level, already has interior qualities for a luxury vehicle, and can be a seriously sporty vehicle, especially if they can offer it with performance tires rather than the usual all seasonal tires and with a stick shift and manu-matic transmissions. Another plus if they can incorporate the "in-the-wheel" electric engine in the rear wheels to get an AWD Hybrid Accord...
Although I'm surprised they didn't offer it as an Acura through... (Acura Inspire, anyone?
I'd bet that by 2015, every Honda model line will have atleast one hybrid variant.
ksso
Toyota has publicly & repeated proclaimed they will offer a hybrid option on each of their passengers vehicles by 2010.
But then again, Toyota is a much larger automotive company. So Honda should get due credit for their progress, especially since it is still faster than everyone else.
JOHN
IMA is literally offers a plug-in approach in Honda/Acura lineup. It may be a matter of improving the little things that are often counted against hybrid technology (primarily weight, and cost), as well as improving the efficiency of the power train itself. Both have been seen with each generation of IMA, so fourth should bring even more!
But seriously, it will be interesting to see how Honda uses its hybrid technology in future cars. Acura RDX may be next in line which is rumored to be out next year. Civic will be due for its redesign as well. It will be interesting to see the direction Honda will take with that hybrid. I’m hoping for K20B powered 5-door HB with 6-speed automatic transmission, even if the mileage stays about the same. Basically, asking for more performance without giving up fuel economy and emissions.
Available? You mean, "sold to the public". To me, a real hybrid is not a two seater. Daihatsu, a division of Toyota already has Daihatsu UFE2 that gets 170 mpg using HSD full hybrid design.
It is a four seater and superior to Honda Insight.
http://www.daihatsu.com/motorshow/tokyo03/ufe2/
Dennis
That statement is a tough to understand one - What does the "number of seats" have to do AT ALL with whether a vehicle is a "real hybrid" or not?
i've always loved toyota as a company, i even own a good amount of their ADR's, but I never bought one and see myself unlikely to buy one in the near future. Their ride's don't suit my taste, either ergonomically or drive-wise. I've always preferred the taut-er road hugging feels of honda's & bmw's.
but then again, i'm not in the payroll of either honda or toyota to quarrel like 6 years old, so i'll shut up and neglect all weird comments.
i would love to see both honda & toyota have atleast one hybrid variant in their entire model line up in the next 5~10 years.
I'm already salivating at a potential Acura RL with a hybrid variant, if one comes out soon enough.
Realistically, I'd love a TL body with a SH-AWD with hybrid... now that's really cool for me.
I've just taken myself off the market by inheriting an A6 that'll get me around for 2-4 years. So when all the hype has died down a little, I'll get back and see what I find either in the Accord Market or the RL/M market.
ksso
Well, think mainstream. Why did Insight fail yet HCH and Prius take off? My definition of a real hybrid is more real than Mr.Gerdes' 100+mpg one.
Dennis
I said it before, I am not trying to put down Honda. I am just stating the difference in potential between HSD and IMA hybrid types. Thanks for your feedback. Maybe, I should tone down my statements to be more "Honda friendly".
HAH's benefit from IMA+Idle stop is impressive 22% higher in fuel economy while achieving sonic 0.5 seconds faster acceleration. When combined with VCM and improved aerodynamics, efficiency climbs to outstanding 33% more miles per gallon.
"I've just taken myself off the market by inheriting an A6 that'll get me around for 2-4 years."
Me too. I love my car. I won't be in a market for another one anytime soon.
Dennis