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Hemi vs. Hybrid! Japan goes Tech, US goes ICE! Who's really winning??

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Comments

  • 6thbeatle6thbeatle Member Posts: 180
    that's how i feel about chrysler and GM these days--too many showcase or image cars which do nothing to help the bottom line or instill buyer confidence. how useful or relevant is a crossfire, or ssr, when the bread-and-butter cars in their respective line-ups are in need of fundamental improvements.

    it's like putting one 50 yarder thru the uprights during the half-time show, then showing everyone in the stadium replays of it on the jumbotron over and over during the rest of the game while you miss lots of easy field goals and conversions.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    So close they probably need labels :)

    image

    image
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    does that TT have some sort of aftermarket front airdam?
  • badtoybadtoy Member Posts: 343
    don't really show the differences, which are in the details -- the TT is very crisp, whereas the SC is very smooth. In person, the differences are obvious. The proportions are also quite a bit different when viewed directly from the side.

    Mind, I really don't care whether or not the SC mimics the TT -- I just don't think it does. Similar, yes -- but so are a multitude of other cars to each other (just look at all the cars with triangular taillights). Also, the SC is not exactly a high-production car, so ascribing excessive import to the TT's styling seems like a reach to me. Which other cars copy the TT's styling? And didn't the New Beetle precede the TT? (May be wrong on that one....)
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    in the fact that they're both small 2-seat playthings for people with nice bank accounts, but that's about it. The TT is almost symmetrical when viewed from the side. You could take the silhouette and chop it in half, and interchange the parts, and nobody would be the wiser. It's basically one arc centered on top of another, which actually screws up the proportions, because it makes the hood too short, or the decklid too long, depending on your perspective.

    For some reason, the SC actually makes me think of a cross between a Hyundai Tiburon and some of those GM personal-lux coupes of the 70's that had a few too many curves, something the previous-gen Tiburon had a bit too much of itself. Its proportions are totally different though, from the longer hood, shorter deck, windshield pillars that are more straight, a more close-coupled looking passenger cabin, etc. The SC also has an overall shape that kicks up towards the rear, like GM cars started doing in 1965.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    is easily the best-styled car from the 90s. I am surprised to see people arguing this...that car still knocks my socks off after 5 years. I think car mag editors pretty much universally agree with this. And yes, I think it is more striking than the PT.

    I would like to see GM save all the money they spent developing the rather useless SSR, and put it into really good engineering on the mainstream models they actually have to sell. Chevy already has Corvette, and the new one looks awesome, performs awesome, why have two halo cars? Can you imagine how the Malibus and Grand Prix of this world could be if that money had been spent tightening their QC, improving the interiors with better parts and style, and making them much more mechanically reliable and long-lived? THAT would be the way for GM to stop the slide and have all its 1970s customers back by 2015.

    In the meantime, the new Prius' unanticipated heavy demand has me thinking that HSD in the Toyota utes could well take off in the market as well, and hybrid might just consolidate its beachhead on our shores. If so, we will certainly see hybrid applications before 2010 that will increase power (with incremental fuel economy improvements) rather than just save gas, and that could be a very good thing. It would be the first time in 20 years that has happened.

    Gas has gone up about 25 cents a gallon since mid-January where I live. There will come a point where people care more about fuel economy in the vehicles they buy, although we have not reached that point yet.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    over something that bears a striking resemblance to the mouse attached to my computer. It also looks an awful lot like a stubby Chrysler Thunderbolt. I guess what I'm saying is that I just don't see anything new or revolutionary in the TT's style. It's clean, and there's nothing really wrong with it, but if you take a fresh bar of soap and one that's been used for awhile, sit one on top of the other in the shower, you'll get the same basic shape after awhile.

    As for the hybrid thing, well gas has shot up a good deal in these parts, too, maybe about 25 cents a gallon, as well. I really felt it last nite when it cost me about $36 to fill up my NYer, although I did treat the sucker to Premium. I dunno if I'd ever get into a hybrid, because I don't think I really drive enough anymore to really see a cost benefit. Maybe though, as time goes on and the cost of the technology goes down, and they start putting the technology in bigger, more mainstream-looking vehicles.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    TT's influence was mostly on the interiors, not exteriors. Quick, can you name one sporty compact that does *not* have imitation Audi aluminum trim?

    Me neither.

    The TT single handedely changed the trend from wood (plood actually) to brushed aluminum/metal or some imitation.

    Even the F150 has it, and it's easily the best truck interior out there.

    It may not have been the first ever, but it certainly popularized metal interior trim. Funny thing is I think the TT's influence is greatly understated here.

    -juice
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    that flat silver satin-y crap they spray on the plastics, like what they used to do on stereo equipment back in the 80's, before the black look came into style, or real brushed metal, like what's in my Grandad's '85 Silverado?

    I used to have a computer mouse here at work that had that silver satin junk on it. That stuff wears off with light speed.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Callmedrfill:

    I'm quite aware of what you cited. The demise of the Thunderbird is a blow to Ford's prestige and morale, but it hardly makes a dent in its profit outlook or prospects for recovery.

    As for your statement regarding the Freestyle - please learn the difference between a fact and a prediction. Your statement, "The Freestyle will bomb!" is not a fact, it's a prediction.

    The Freestyle has received good reviews in every publication I've read, and it was attracting lots of attention at the Harrisburg Auto Show. It's entering the one of the hottest segments of the market with handsome styling and a competitive price. That bodes well for the Freestyle's prospects, but neither one of us will know for sure until they start rolling off the assembly lines in Chicago. Which they aren't scheduled to do until later this summer.

    Why, exactly should the F-150 "be held seperate from any corporate turnaround?" Because it hurts your case? While its success is irrelevant to how the public views Ford's CARS, it is extremely important to Ford's corporate future. It brings home a large percentage of the company's profits. It's central to any corporate turnaround effort. Fortunately, not only is it selling well, but the public is buying the upper-level, higher-profit models in larger-than-anticipated numbers, further helping Ford.

    The Focus will receive a nice facelift and new engines for the 2005 models, which debut this spring. Consumer Reports reported a huge drop in problems from the 2001 models to the 2002 models (the head of Consumer Reports testing remarked it was one of the greatest year-to-year improvements he'd ever witnessed for a vehicle), and has recommended it based on the even better 2003 and 2004 models.

    It still offers great driving dynamics, a roomy interior, a wide selection of models and, for 2005, new engines and a new look. So I'd refrain from shoveling dirt on its grave just yet.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Very few cars of the last 25 years created the media racket of the Audi TT. Maybe nothing like it since the 1965 Mustang.

    It's probably hard to appreciate because the design is actually pretty old now. Almost ten years since its debut, so our eyes are really not so impressed anymore. You'd have to line it up with 1994 cars to get the full impact I think. It was very startling and bold at the time.

    I wish an American company could pull something like that out of the hat right now. I don't mean LOOKING like a TT, that's pretty passe by now, but something that would inspire other companies to copy it. With or without Hemi, I don't care. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and good free PR, too!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yup Andre, the cheap imitation stuff scratches easily. Gimme flat, matte black trim, any day. If it scratches you can just buff it out.

    Audi uses the real stuff, at least. A friend of mine bought a Boxster and you should have seen the prices on the trim appearance packages - I'm talking $5-6 grand!

    -juice
  • badtoybadtoy Member Posts: 343
    (but only barely so) I think the Altima sets the standard for family sedans. Would that the other carmakers would follow their example. (Unfortunately, it appears to be a difficult model to follow, judging by Nissan's own Maxima).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Dunno, I think the outside looks OK but the Altezzas didn't catch on and will soon look dated. The interior just got an overhaul, so I don't think we can call it the standard.

    Right now I think the Mazda6 probably sets the styling standard for the mid-sizers.

    -juice
  • badtoybadtoy Member Posts: 343
    The ALtezza is Toyota's predecessor to the IS300.

    And while I like the Mazda, I still think the Altima's combination of elegance, smoothness and visual excitement still sets the standard. (My opinion, of course (whose else would I have?!!)
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    he may have just been talking about the "altezza" style tail lights that the altima has. The interior on the Altima is such a letdown compared to the rest of the car. Needs some work to be THE family sedan. As far a smaller, sporty sedan's I'd go with the Mazda 6, Larger I'd probably go with an Accord (despite the ugly exterior).
  • 6thbeatle6thbeatle Member Posts: 180
    the new altima has a really nice interior now. looks completely changed from last year's.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    hmmmm haven't seen it yet. I'll have to check it out at the autoshow here in two weeks.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    the Altima still has a long and winding road to go before there's really anything nice to say about the interior. About the only thing I can say for it is at least you get cloth inserts on the door panels, instead of just cheap vinyl or plastic, like on some other cars. It's roomy and comfy though, I'll give it that much.

    Overall though, in terms of fit-and-finish, I'd rate it about the same as some of GM's older offerings. Not up to par with the new Malibu or Grand Prix, but better than, say, a Cavalier or the old Malibu, and maybe a touch above an Impala. They're definitely put together sloppier than a Camry or especially an Accord, which I think still sets the standard for gaps, tolerances, even sheetmetal, etc.

    Now the Altima's not shabby enough to scare me away...I actually like the car, despite all the things I'm picking on. When comparing cars in that general size range, I think it's one of the best looking. It's tall, yet hides that tallness much better than the Accord, Camry, or Malibu does. Another car in that size range I like the style of is the Stratus/Sebring, which nowadays, are probably the most low-slung of the bunch. But the moment I drove one, I was disappointed, whereas with the Altima I really liked it, despite the poor workmanship/materials, and engine that was loud at lower speeds.
  • badtoybadtoy Member Posts: 343
    I was just referencing the exterior styling, which I think is a highwater mark in sedans. Good performance, too -- much better than either Honda or Toyota.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    If Ford wants to build Buick Roadmasters, and then try to call them SUVs, that's the first sign of Hiroshima.

       They've been pumpin' this Freestyle and 500 for years, and if this is it, head for your basement! That's all I have to say on that.

       When you think of Ford Focus you think of recalls and strange styling first, everything else second. That's what Ford brought to the market. A car has 18 months to sell itself to the public. And Ford couldn't have a worse 18 months, PR-wise.

       The fact that Ford gives them away, and attaches a mega-warranty to it speaks volumes to me.

       "My argument" is that Ford is reliant on two vehicles for it's existence, and the others are mediocre cars at best. No class-leaders there! They've only been making cars for 100+ years. I kind of expect better. A lot better.

       BTW, I actully worked directly for FORD for 3 years, so I know how sorry and desperate the company is first-hand. We all make mistakes.

       DrFill
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    why bother sometimes....
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Hypothetical question:

    What do you think would happen if say the Japanese came out with a series of nicely styled hybrid passenger cars and light trucks that had as much power and torque as a Hemi V8 and got 35 mpg? Even if you don't think it's possible, please speculate on the effects on things like America's market share of the auto biz, or your own buying habits, or the Big 2.5 reaction, or whatever you wish.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, by "Altezzas" I was referring to the clear tail lamps.

    The new interior does look better. It has green/blue lighting IIRC, vs. the Pontiac orange used now.

    Dunno, I went to NAIAS and to the Philly show, the crowd seemed to like the 500/Freestyle. In Philly I was able to sneak inside, it's more space efficient than the Caddy SRX despite being smaller, plus it's a lot cheaper. It also seems to offer more room than a Pacifica.

    If this segment succeeds, I think the Freestyle will be its best seller.

    Shifty: I think such a hybrid would have massive wait list and sell at markups above MSRP. I don't think they could meet demand. Prius has wait lists still. RX400H and Highlander will sell and have wait lists, too, watch.

    However, I don't think they'll do a lot of volume. It'll remain a small, yet popular, niche.

    I don't even think the Magnum with a Hemi would compete with that, it's just a different buyer. The guy who drives a fleet truck at work but buys a Magnum for weekend/family use. "It's got a Hemi, just like my truck at work..."

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Something like the Acura RL that is rumored to offer 300+ hp with the electric motors providing power to the rear wheels and a V6 powering the front to combine for AWD?

    I think the others in the market would scramble a bit. It wouldn't change major perceptions. I mean, Cadillac owner's won't fall on their caviar spoons, or anything... But the market would take notice and be forced to react. Either they will offer super hemis to raise the power expectations, or scramble to get hyrbids themselves.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe they'd add technologies like Direct Injection to their Hemis.

    The Hemi is a pushrod 2-valve design, right? I think that might limit what you can do with valve timing and lift, stuff like that.

    -juice
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    they can always do what they did with them back in the day...just increase the displacement if they have to! Or redesign the heads.

    That was one trick they did back in the early 90's, when the 5.2 and 5.9 Magnum came out. Most of the advancement over the older 5.2/5.9 was in the heads, and it bumped up the hp and torque considerably. For a few years, these Magnum V-8's were actually leaders in their class, until GM and Ford reacted by upping the hp on their own engines.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    there would be enough people scared to try the unknown technology or unwilling to "risk" the potential costs five to seven years down the line to keep Dodge's Hemi humming with customers, and the big 2.5 would play on that fear/unwillingness in their advertising.

    Not to mention a unique aspect of the American market is the consumer's strong desire to have bragging rights on the biggest, baddest, gas-guzzlingest mother engine. A hybrid with a 3-liter V-6 and electric gadgetry just would not satisfy this particular brand of consumer.

    Heck, there have been people falling into at least one of the above categories posting in the "hybrids" thread ever since it was opened.

    But I do believe we are still a long way from that hybrid saturation point. And I agree it is likely, although far from certain, that the HL and RX hybrids will have waiting lists when they come out this year. The HEV too, if Ford finally makes it available to the public.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    those hybrid cars open up a whole new can o' worms with regards to safety when they get into accidents. I've heard of incidents where they have to call out the Hazmat teams because of all those batteries. It may not be such a big deal nowadays, but things will escalate quite rapidly once hybrids start making up a larger percentage of the country's vehicle fleet.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    They'll be using ultracapacitors soon enough. Still some of the same problems with batteries, but not on the same scale.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Personally, I'd prefer the new generation of high-tech diesels that Europeans have been able to buy, as opposed to hybrids. These diesels are quite popular in Europe, even among luxury car buyers. If our regulatory bodies can overcome their anti-diesel bias, and our refineries can deliver low-sulphur fuel, these seem like the better choice.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Actually I could see high-tech diesels appealing more to luxury car buyers because you get more of a diesel's benefits with a big heavy car...plenty of torque and very good economy. A very small car's light weight somewhat offsets the diesel advantages I think. There isn't much diff in economy between a Jetta TDI and a gas Honda Civic with smallest engine, at least in the real world, and doing the math, not enough to justify the TDI's cost. But there would be plenty of difference between a V8 Benz highline sedan and a high tech turbo diesel. You'd get well over double the fuel mileage and could save $1,000 a year.
  • badtoybadtoy Member Posts: 343
    are both cleaner and quieter than they were in years past -- but they're still dirtier, and until we have better #2 diesel fuel available, it ain't gonna happen here.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    We're supposed to get cleaner fuel by 2006 isn't that the mandate? America is behind on suitable diesel technology (naturally) for passenger cars, but I don't know as there is going to be a big leap for it anyway.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    that the state of Maryland puts them in the same category as trucks with a GVWR over 10,000 lb, pre-1977 cars, and cars registered as historic vehicles (right now 1979 and older). That is, they just don't bother to test them!
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    the low-sulfur diesel is mandated to be 50-state for 2007.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • catamcatam Member Posts: 331
    I think its on Motortrend.com or poss Car and driver.com in the news section where Mercedes is going to offer a clean diesel in their E class sedans this year in the US. This engine is 45 state emision legal, and according to DC when low sulphur diesel arrives in 06 it will 50 state legal.
    Add to that the new Cummins 600 diesel in Dodge full size trucks that is now 50 state legal including California, and also provides the most power of any full size truck, 325hp and 600 lb.ft of torque. Why in the heck would you want to buy a hybrid with all the extras involved and reliabilty questions, when diesels are becoming so much better.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That Benz diesel was impressive - 0-60 was quicker, in fact every acceleration measure was quicker than the E320, yet it costs $1100 or so less.

    Now you're talking. VW's TDI costs more, you'd never recover your costs. Same with hybrids. M-B's diesel simply makes sense, economically and in terms of performance.

    -juice
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    That Benz diesel could likely have me buying a newer (used) car in a few years. Looks to be a great package.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    I'm not a Chrysler lover (far from it!) but (to Andre's possible delight) I think I might light this Dodge Magnum coming out. I like wagons, and although I'm not sold on the front, truck-like clip, I like the styling. Throw in the RWD and V8 and I might actually be very interested in this car. (Something I thought I might never say about a Chrysler, especially Dodge, product!)
  • 6thbeatle6thbeatle Member Posts: 180
    the dodge magnum form my shopping list because of its cheap looking interior.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    I've yet to see it in person.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    how hard it would be to fit one of the new Hemis into something like, say, a 1979 New Yorker or a 1980 Cordoba LS? ;-)

    I definitely want to check out the 300C and Magnum when they hit the showrooms, but my main problem is that I don't like the 300C's front-end, and I don't want a station wagon. So that ends up leaving me with a compromise. Maybe I should just wait a few years and buy a used 300C, and then start looking through the junkyards for a Magnum that's been rear-ended?

    And I'm also just not ready to spend $30K on a car yet, and that's about what the Hemi models are going to start off at. I'm sure the rebates and discounts aren't too far off, though!

    Oh yeah...come on over to the dark side, Kev. Search your soul, you know it to be your destiny... ;-)
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    (In my best Luke Skywalker) Noooooooooooooo!!!!!

    Although I got to admit, I like this shot. image

    (hey, what can I say? I've always liked hatches and wagons)
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    I do like it from that angle, too! And normally I don't like that color on a newer car, but here I think it looks good. I like that color on old cars, where there was enough chrome to offset it, and even on 70's cars, it looked suitably pimpy, but on newer cars it usually screams AARP!

    Would you want something that big though, Kev? I mean, from my point of reference it's actually small (about the size of a Dodge Dart, which was a compact once upon a time), but most people nowadays don't look at cars through my point of reference. Well, except maybe for Lemko...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It looks sort of "chopped", no? When they get an old '32 Ford and chop it so the glass isn't so tall.

    -juice
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,655
    that really surprises me about the Magnum. Believe it or not, these cars are actually about 59-60" tall, but I think they do a really good job of hiding the fact that they're really tall, stubby cars. At least to me, anything that's 59-60" tall but not even 200" long qualifies as tall and stubby!
  • 6thbeatle6thbeatle Member Posts: 180
    the magnum's interior is truly depressing. all grey and not even a hint of colour. the metal trim parts are just painted matt silver. yuck.

    dodge had me sold on a AWD 3.5L black or red magnum til i saw that wretched interior, and i won't spend good money to sit in that plastic pit! stinko DC!! really the pits!!!!
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    Well I wouldn't mind a larger car to cover some ground on road trips, and with that cargo area, I could have the wife in it driving behind me in my '67 Jag with enough parts so I can always get it home ;-)

    Seriously though, if it could handle well enough I would be interested in a RWD V8 version. Only thing is, I'm sure you won't be able to get it with a stick, and that's a big strike against it. Have to see, as it will be another year or two before I'd get something new.

    Oh, as far as that color, no thanks. Something tells me that it would look pretty good in black. Needs a little chrome added to it in my opinion, but looking at it, I'm not sure where you could add much. And of course, I'd still have to sit in it and look to see if the interior is livable.

    Realistically, I probably would get something else, but a RWD, V8 wagon is very appealing to me.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My big concern is weight. The Pacifica is too heavy and that sort of spoils that vehicle. It's not efficient nor is it quick.

    The Magnum had better at least be quick.

    -juice
This discussion has been closed.