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Kia Sedona

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Comments

  • edersmedersm Member Posts: 2
    I had the same problem with wind noise.. I took to dealer and there was a bad seal where the wires come in.. it is a heated windshield.. It would also vibrate everything... Problem fixed.. :)
  • smillersmiller Member Posts: 32
    Yes, my 2006 sedona had a vibration problem and after KIA did all the tests and replaced all the rims and tires, the problem was still there and it started the brake
    pedal vibration too! They ended up replaceing the front rotors and turning down the back rotors -all vibration problems went away. I like the van but it seems like they all have too many problems and service needs help. You better live close to a KIA dealer if you buy one because you will be wasting a lot of time getting your KIA serviced.
  • ronnakamotoronnakamoto Member Posts: 1
    I bought my 2006 Kia Sedona right before I went overseas to Iraq so that my wife would have anew vehicle to work with and not have to worry about anything. Twice she has found water in the cargo area and thought maybe something was wet in the area and left there. I have now found the same twice but nothing was left there this time. Anyone have this problem on their Kia Sedona? I took it to the dealership and they said they ran some tests and could not find any leaks. Thanks.
  • lavrishevolavrishevo Member Posts: 312
    Sorry guys (gals) for the problems that you are having with your Sedona. Unfortunately first year models are the ones with the most "bugs" to be worked out.

    As far as the rain in the trunk, obviously check all the seals around the rear gate.

    For the wind noise, if you have cross bars on the roof rack, trying moving them or taking them off. Some have reported this eliminated the wind noise on their van. I did read somewhere about the window motors being so powerful as to almost create a gap in the seal when in the fully up position. I do not know if this is true.

    If you develop a kind of rattle from the rear of the car most likely it is from rear door lock that just needs to be sprayed thoroughly with a silicon lubricant. Use the little red tube and spray inside the lock on both sides.

    The vibration is something I have not had on my 06 which is a very early model, built in January. I don't know what to tell you about this, maybe rims out of round, could be tires as well, or the rotors. I will suggest not going with the Kia brake pads when you do need them. Not only are they inferior in quality but horribly overpriced. Go with a quality aftermarket ceramic / organic pad like Posi Quiet or something similar.

    Hope some of this helps. The way dealerships are acting these days seem to be across the board. Some thing of the Sienna and Odyssey forums. No more customer services these days.
  • rgochoargochoa Member Posts: 17
    I had the two wind noise on my 06 Sedona. The wind noise coming from the door is due to the cross bars. Do NOT install them per installation instructions--instead move the front bar all the way to the front and the rear bar all the way to the rear. This solves that problem--no need to take them off as the dealership probably recommended. The other wind noise I had appeared to come from the AC vents whenever the wind was strong. Turns out this was due to the windshield not sealed correctly. After these corrections, all was nice and quiet.
  • beautalksbeautalks Member Posts: 1
    Our 06 Sedona had a terrible wind noise also. This one appeared during strong side winds when traveling at freeway speeds. In trips across the midwest the banshee wailing drowns out both the radio and the cussing by the occupants. I talked with a dealership in Wyoming and they replace the odd "u" shaped front windshield molding with an aftermarket flat one (under warranty) that reportedly solves the problem. Our local dealership (in Oregon) cannot do anything unless you can duplicate the problem. Since this area sees few strong side winds and the maximum speed limit is 60 mph, there is no way to duplicate the problem. We have had excellent results with the local dealership in all other areas but they are stuck with this catch-22.
    Recently I purchased a 25 foot length of .125 inch screen splining at the hardware store for a bit over 3 bucks. Last time we experienced the prairie wind wailing I pulled over at a rest area. We cut a 9 foot length of the spline and shoved it into the "u" with the car key. We pulled back onto the freeway under identical wind conditions. The problem was solved! The black spline is not noticeable in the molding. I assume the odd shaped molding has a purpose. Perhaps to channel rainwater? Whatever the case, we have been out in a few wet thunderstorms with no ill effects so far.
  • likellehlikelleh Member Posts: 35
    Hi BDR..I sympathize with you...not much you can do with the lemon as long as Kia is taking care of it in arbitration. I had the Kia offices on the phone at least once a week to make sure i didn't dish out money on a car under warranty! if you look way back at my history on here, you'll see I had an 04 that was nothing but problems! :lemon: I was fed up the day i drove 100 miles for an appt and had to have the car jumped when it wouldn't start! I knew then it was a drained battery due to a known alternator problem with the car! I had every piece of electrical changed in that van including 4 weeks in a rental while they sent my spedometer to NY for replacement! That day i drove straight back to the dealer i bought it from. I proceeded to look at the 06 Sedona and even though i owed some on the 04 bought the 06 while i waited 2 hrs for the service dept to tell me all i had was a dead batter! I told them to keep the car, i had just bought a new one! I love my 06 and have had no problems other then the fuel pump recall that i knew about when i bought it! I will be buying again in 09 a Sedona if they upgrade thier features more. :D
  • byyallbyyall Member Posts: 24
    I took my 2006 Sedona in for an oil change and to have the automatic rear door checked for making a sound like metal against metal. Imagine my surpise when I was charged $40.00 for the ADJUSTMENT to the rear door. They said ADJUSTMENTS WERE NOT covered under the warranty. Is there something I missed in the warranty book? As far as I can tell, this should not have happened at a little over 20K miles. Has anyone else had this problem? Have you had to pay for an adjustment to a part that should have been working longer than this?
    I sometimes feel with the KIA dealership in Columbia, SC that I have gone through some type of time warp or something.
  • redptcredptc Member Posts: 78
    I believe the warranty adjustments are good for only the 1st 12 months after buying it new. Had the same problem at Hyundai,after they tightened a wire on the starter of my granddaughters 2 year old Santa Fe and charged her $86.00 for the work. Only to have the starter go bad a week later. talked to the general manager about it and got her money back. (They put a new starter in under warranty) Good luck on future adjustments. :mad:
  • capecoralbillcapecoralbill Member Posts: 51
    check out this link for warranty see page 5 and 6 for the 12 monthe thing. http://www.kia.com/07warranty.pdf
  • redptcredptc Member Posts: 78
    GOT IT.
  • wastrelwastrel Member Posts: 10
    have had this fixed 3 times, last time lasted 1 day. Have been told simply snaps back into place, all parts seem to fit find.
    anyone have any ideas
  • nomoresedonanomoresedona Member Posts: 2
    I sympathize. Our 2007 EX (bought new July 2007) has needed: a new dvd after week two, new fuse panel (no wipers during rain storm and no horn), leaking sunroof, and power sliding doors that decide if and when they work. All of this within 4 months of buying. Original dealer was terrible with customer service. Next dealer a little better but still cannot diagnose what is wrong with the doors. The warranty is nice but who wants to use it monthly! A stripped model may be better but I am staying away from Kia after this one.
  • byyallbyyall Member Posts: 24
    Usually states have a lemon law that would have required the Kia Company to give you a totally new vehicle for these problems. In SC they enforce this.
    My 2006 Kia has had wind noise problems since we purchased it in June 2006. The Kia dealer in Columbia consistently denies the problem by saying, "All of these vans do that. It is the nature of the beast."
    The dealership here is terrible. My husband and I took it to a dealer 70 miles away. The first day they had it they really went to work on all of the problems we have had since we got the van. Come to find out that "the nature of the beast" is wrong. They do not have an actual recall, but a Technical Data something that details what is needed to stop it.
    It is truly frustrating to have to drive 150 miles roundtrip to get a decent dealer. It is in a smaller town and they actually care! I pray the other things will be done as well, including problems with the driver's side AC getting hot just at certain times.
  • capecoralbillcapecoralbill Member Posts: 51
    What is it that you're refering to when you said .............."They do not have an actual recall, but a Technical Data something that details what is needed to stop it."..........Stop what? Thanks Bill
  • byyallbyyall Member Posts: 24
    The problem with the sliding door had not been addressed by the Kia dealer in Columbia, SC. When we took the Kia 70 miles away to another dealer they called me later and said there was something from Kia that there were problems with, probably, the modulators in the door to keep it from closing and causing it to make the wind noises because it did not close properly.
    The dealer in Columbia just does not care at all. I honestly believe they want it to go out of warranty so they can charge an arm and leg to fix it.
    ALSO, their price to fix something small (one of the back sensor covers) was more than 3 hours labor when the other 3 dealers I called said an hour to l l/2 hours at the MOST.
    Be vigilent. Call dealers in other areas than you live in and talk to their service manager if you can't get satisfaction. It is definitely worth it to us to take the car 70 miles to get it truly serviced rather than the aggravation with the dealership in Columbia.
  • cokekiller1cokekiller1 Member Posts: 2
    Looks like they didn't test the Sedona to well in the cold. When it got below freezing (32 degrees F) the dash clock stopped working. Also the power sliding doors stop working. They may open once but then they freeze shut. I think when they open some water must get in somewhere important and it freezes on a 3 minute drive.

    I turn the power door off so I can open them manually and I literally have to throw my entire 205 lb weight behind the doors to get them to slide open.

    Nice engineering. Not...
  • likellehlikelleh Member Posts: 35
    I live in NE and have the Sedona 06 ex with the sliding doors too. Yes, in very cold weather or wet weather the sliding doors are prone to freeze shut until the car is warmed. Part of it is when the sliding door tracks on the outside of the car at the top and bottom freeze and retain ice, and water and moisture does get into the door jams and it won't allow the doors to open. I also have a problem with icing and snow with the back automatic lift gate that if there is ice at the top of the car where the joint seperates when opened, it either will not open or will grind trying to get past the ice. I take 2 kids to school early morning and let the car warm up and have found that after the car has warmed it has thawed the doors and they open. It can be a pain. :(
  • dcibrandodcibrando Member Posts: 90
    I read where the 2009 Kia Sedona will have a navigation option... but do not see this for the Entourage? Is this true?

    Also, does anyone know if Kia (or Hyundai) will be updating their minivans in the future (interior, exterior, etc.). Would definitely like them to move from the greenish middle dash lights to the blue like in the other Hyundai's

    thanks!
  • byyallbyyall Member Posts: 24
    I have no clue about the lights...I would be thankful if they could just train the mechanics at the dealerships to fix the ones they have already sold! Many of us have not had much luck with that.

    Also, Consumer Reports new issue rates the Kia Sedona is one of the least ones they would recommend. Too many owner complaints. Not about the engine, but about all of the other things, air conditioner, wind noises, on and on.

    I would NEVER BUY another one unless they could show improvement in the service. Good luck on the lights.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Is this forum the most active one for the 2nd generation (2006+) Sedonas? I haven't visited in a while and am surprised at the lack of activity.

    Our 2006 Sedona EX's OEM tires, Michelin LX4, are shot. They lasted 33k miles and are getting reasonably close to the wear bar indicators. It's time for new tires. The 235-60-17 size is a fairly pricey tire. The OEM Michelins are $147 at tirerack - yikes! Never considered those since the treadwear was pretty poor and they carry no mileage warranty.

    Bought a set of 4 Kumho 798 tires. H speed rated, 400 treadwear and A traction and A temp ratings. Decent specs. Found some reviews on tirerack, though it's tough to know how much stock to put into reviews of tires that are a totally different size. E.g. some 2002-2005 Sedonas had this tire model as original equipment, but that's a 205-70-15 tire so I don't know how similar the user experience will be.

    @ $66 each + shipping from tirerack, these tires were half the price of most other tires of the same size. Treadwear does not seem to be their strong suit, but if I get 30k from them, I will be a fairly happy camper.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    In my experience, service quality is more related to the particular dealership providing the service than of the vehicle brand.
  • smillersmiller Member Posts: 32
    Amen to that brother! I can deal with (too many) minor problems with my 2006 Sedona because my Kia dealer's service dept. is up to date and well trained.
    We like our Sedona and we are lucky to get good service from the dealer.
  • byyallbyyall Member Posts: 24
    I can now join the few of you who report good service from a Kia dealer! I had to drive over 200 miles round trip, BUT almost every quirk in the 2006 Kia Sedona was addressed. The only problem that remains is the wind noise from the right passenger sliding door. I honestly believe this is something that goes back to when the parts for the 2006 model were in the tool and die mode. Maybe it wasn't exact on the door.

    The dealer at Kia of Florence, SC has gone way beyond the extra mile. They had Kia of America call me to see if there was anything they could do. It has taken us 2 1/2 years, but finally it is working right! Hallajeula!!
    I hope I am not speaking too soon about it working good!
    Galeana Kia in Columbia, SC is awful. Don't ever think you will take a car there and get service...you'll be sadly disappointed.
  • mandrademandrade Member Posts: 1
    Okay, We've got the water in the cargo area problem too same year. How do you fix it?
  • icabodcraneicabodcrane Member Posts: 2
    Fixed ours with a tube of clear silicone sealant-- went along the edges of the roof rack and the rubber grommet fittings where wiring goes into rear hatch.
    All dry again.
  • byyallbyyall Member Posts: 24
    We are at the bottom of the barrel, folks! I guess when we were surveyed we told the truth about the problems we are having with the vans. If the service departments were what they are supposed to be, these problems would be fixed. They are advising AGAINST our vans and they are listed in the "CARS NOT TO BUY" area. I know this will KILL our trade-in or sales value.

    I get great gas mileage on the road and in town with mine. Inside is wonderful and comfortable. Extras are good. Power ASSISTED steering is awful. Heating and AC system not good. Many other complaints, BUT I will keep it. I actually look at the paper each day to see what used ones sell for; however, there are not any for sale listed! Maybe someone just kills them to get them out of their misery!
    If you don't subscribe to Consumer Reports, go buy the 2010 book for everything they have tested and done surveys on. It is truly surprising, not only on Autos, but appliances, etc.
  • jirkajirka Member Posts: 15
    Hi,

    I have 2007 Kia Sedona LX without any foglights. I moved to Europe and took it with me and now I need to add rear fog light (this is required in E.U.). Is the car pre-wired for it? Is it something a dealer has to do or can I do it myself?

    Thanks
    Jirka
  • byyallbyyall Member Posts: 24
    I don't know how telephones work in EU, but there is a 1-800 number for KIA in our manuals that come with the Kia's. If you call them they would be sure to know and possibly be able to tell you what to do. If they say it is not wired for the fog lights, there is probably something that can be done locally by a mechanic to add one.
    I hope KIA says they are prewired. That would be so much easier for you.
  • spike99spike99 Member Posts: 239
    .

    To add "optional" rear fog lights, I would visit the automotive store in your Europe region and buy universal flog lights. Light assemblies (and lens color) that is certified for your specific region. I would then mount these assemblies (for example, upside down - under the rear bumper) and have their light assemblies self grounding. Then, I'd run a thick 12V "+" 12 guage wire to the inner cabin - lower dash area. Can run this 12V wire under the vehicle and into the firewall or within the vehicle - under its internal rugs (which ever is best). I would then connect this thick wire to a manual off/on switch. And this manual off-on switch is connected to the accessory pins in the fuse box.

    When you need rear or font fog lights (assuming another set of fog lights mounted on the front of vehicle), simply flip this switch to its ON position. And if the ignition key is OFF, these extra lights are turned off as well. Thus, eliminating the risk of draining its battery.

    If fog lights need to come on automatically, then local Europe auto shop will advise what "auto sensor" to install instead - instead of a manual off/on switch.

    Hope this helps...

    .
  • jirkajirka Member Posts: 15
    Thanks for your replies.

    The local Kia representative told me they have no idea whether U.S. kia have fog light prewired or not. I had a Kia service to check it and they said the wires are not there. They recommended several shops that can have it installed. It won't be pretty but I don't care. I have never heard about an fog auto-sensor, I will ask.

    BTW the rear fog light are obligatory in most (all?) E.U. countries, only the front fog lights are optional.
  • spike99spike99 Member Posts: 239
    .

    If wondering, I know what your mean about the need for "extra" rear lights. Personally, I feel North Amercian vehicles lack enough REAR facing lights as well. On my wife's van, I installed extra set of rear lights. Not fog lights (like you want) but more brake / signal and running lights in the rear.

    For pictures, surf:
    http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w251/Spike99-Pictures/Montana%20Van/Rear-Ligh- ts-1.jpg
    http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w251/Spike99-Pictures/Montana%20Van/Rear-Ligh- ts-2.jpg
    http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w251/Spike99-Pictures/Montana%20Van/Rear-Ligh- ts-3.jpg

    If wondering, outer edge lights are brake/signal lights and inner lights are clearance lights. Clearance lights come on when its auto-headlights come on as well. These extra lights give much more "too be seen" safety then factory build. We'll worth the effort and cost of installation on my wife's vehicle.

    If thinking of the same approach for your vehicle, simply buy the auto-fog light assemblies that are certified within Europe. Sorry, I don't know their legal lens color (for rear facing lights). If they are "low wattage" (re: like H3 - 35 Watts per bulb), simply connect to a T-Harness. Then, connect this T-Harness to factory lights wiring (in the rear area of vehicle). Same T-Connector one would purchase for a Trailering T-Connector. When it gets too dark outside (or too much fog), the vehicle's auto-headlight sensor switches turn ON and since your rear fog lights are connected to rear clearance lights, its fog lights would be turned on as well. If needed, one might want to install a manual off/on switch (in the cabin area) - to turn OFF the rear fog lights (for normal dark nights driving). Not too sure of the legal details of when extra rear fog logs must be on/off (for Europe regions).

    If the install is done properly (with cosmetics and using plastic wire loom in mind), its 12V wiring and extra rear light assemblies can look very nice. To me, they look great on my wife's vehicle. And its safety increase is amazing as well. When following my wife's vehicle at night, it now has much better "to be seen" safety increase. To me, extra rear lights is better then then a 3rd brake light. Perhaps one day, all new vehicle builds will have more rear facing lights. Only time will tell...

    Hope this helps as well...

    .
  • dodedode Member Posts: 13
    I just had a bunch of work done on my 2002 sedona and was happy with it. Just turned 100,000 miles and it was time. Had the timing belt changed, new water pump, and new spark plugs put in. The thing I notice now, is when I make a turn, the wheel does'nt come back to straight like it usually did when completeing the turn. It is in the 20-30 degree range here in wisconsin right now, maybe that is part of the problem, because it does get better when the car is warmed up thoroughly.

    Could this be something with the power steering pump. I checked the fluid levels and they are all good. Any suggestions??Thanks....Andy
  • flyboy19flyboy19 Member Posts: 1
    edited February 2010
    Well guys, i am new. But here goes. i have a 2005 kia sedona. It has 42,000 miles on it. I bought it a little over a year ago, with 34,000 miles. I use it for road trips only. I am totally at a lost on when to have the Tuneup and Timing belt changed. Kia of course says Now..but checking with 2 other auto repair shots that i have dealt with for years and trust say that i can go to 60,000 miles even though the car now has reached 5yrs(2-19-10). I am told that the plugs will last around 90,000 miles or more, but the belt should be chaned at 60,000 regardless of the 5yrs. Oh course all maintenance is up to date. What do you all think? The confusion is killing me. Thanks!!
  • lavrishevolavrishevo Member Posts: 312
    edited February 2010
    I would have the belt inspected for signs of wear like cracks and discoloration.
    link title

    The timing belt is extremely important and if it fails it can ruin your engine. Honestly, if you can afford the cost it is a smarter choice to go ahead and take care of it. Preventive maintenance is always the key to keeping a vehicle on the road without problems.
  • byyallbyyall Member Posts: 24
    Do not put off having this taken care of. I do not think they can just check this for it is not easy to get to. Timing belts on Honda's and other foreign models as well as Kia, should be changed every 7 years or 60K miles. I have a 1991 Honda Civic that has 120K on it and have had two timing belts put on it. The reason being that it is now 18 years old. The dealer told me to get it done in about another year or so. It is not cheap to do, but it is better than having an engine torn up.

    ALSO, to keep the warranty in effect, be sure to have the transmission serviced by 60K or the warranty is no good for the transmission. Look in your maintenance book and it will tell you what HAS to be done to keep it in effect.

    My 2006 Kia will hit 60K this month. I had the transmission serviced at 30K at the notice by a dealer. I looked in the booklet and it needed it then. I would not have had the warranty in effect if I had not done so. Make sure when you take the vehicle in to the dealers you ask them what needs to be done to be current on what needs to be done.

    Wasn't life simple when the cars were?
  • byyallbyyall Member Posts: 24
    I need to explain " be sure to have the transmission serviced by 60K or the warranty is no good for the transmission." That is be sure to first check with the previous owner and make sure they had it serviced at 30K also. Be sure to get a copy of this service so you will be safe just in case something happens to it. I hope you got all of the service records from prev. owner, but if not, ask who the dealer was who took care of the van before you bought it.
  • 144tap144tap Member Posts: 44
    The o/d button on my 05 Sedona won't stay in and cancel out the o/d . If I push and hold the button in it'll work and shift down to 4th. The option: is there a part inside the shifter or fuse or a selidnoid
  • lonnie4lonnie4 Member Posts: 11
    I am looking to buy a Kia Sedona. Is it good in snow? I looked at the Toyota Sienna but don't like the headrests and seems dull inside. Currently I own a Toyota Avalon and really like it. Just need a bigger vehicle... and looking for the best minivan out there for my money.

    THanks Londa
  • smillersmiller Member Posts: 32
    My 2006 Sedona is great in snow with 4 good snow tires.
    You should use snow tires no matter what car/van you drive - even all wheel drive cars.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Searched this forum but did not find much information about other owners' experience with trailer hitch and bike rack for their Sedonas.

    Can anybody recommend a particular product? Particular website for looking at different products? Etc etc.

    Primary purpose for a trailer hitch on our 2006 Sedona would be for a bike rack. I haven't researched a ton yet, and am not sure if there are other bike rack options not involving a trailer hitch.

    We have a flat metal grid platform (2 feet by 5 feet approximate) that connects to a trailer hitch, but have not used it yet. Seems it would NOT be a good candidate for transporting bikes -- not sure how they could be secured tightly.
  • aa0526aa0526 Member Posts: 29
    I am looking at a new Kia Sedona 2011.
    The 2011 has a new 3.5 v6 instead of the 4.0.
    The new engine has better mileage - I think 18/25 vs 17/23 for the old.
    My issue though is the styling.
    The 2011 is a pretty much carryover from the 2010/2009.
    But with Hyundai and KIA revamping its entire product line, I am guessing that the 2012 would get a complete redesign ... should I wait for 2012 or jump the gun with the 2011?
  • lavrishevolavrishevo Member Posts: 312
    edited September 2010
    I don't know if Kia is ending production of the Sedona. Some articles say Hyundai's Entourage is the only one to be killed off and a redesign is coming for the Sedona. It is a good van for the money. Not the best but definitely the best bang for the buck.

    I know my 06 has a 3.8L, I don't think Kia ever used a 4.0L
  • alex128alex128 Member Posts: 2
  • alex128alex128 Member Posts: 2
    We purchased 2008 Kia Sedona with 11,000 miles. At 18,000 miles started complaining about a noise. They changed compresser at 44,000. Noise was still there. I told dealer and took back 2 times about noise after that. Could not find anything, don't worry, it is written you have been complaining, we will take care of. Out of warranty and now they know the noise is a bad engine. Sorry, you are out of warranty. Each dealership is independently owed and Kia is not responsible for their actions. I should have driven 50 miles out of my way and tried another dealership was the response from Kia. I would never recommend their product.
  • terendyterendy Member Posts: 1
    Was your wind noise with the side windows or the windshield? Thanks!
  • byyallbyyall Member Posts: 24
    It was coming from the back door as well as we could tell. I loved this van, but the noises continue in the 2012 we bought. They took away a lot of the perks it had in the 2006, little things that meant a lot to us. It does have a lot more horsepower and is a pleasure to drive and ride in.
    Sometimes the wind noise from the back window/door was so bad that we could not talk from the driver to the passenger and understand what was being said.
    The 2006 was a wonderful car, though and we got a lot for the money. I wish we had kept it as a drive around town car. We only got $5500 trade-in for it.
    There was NOTHING wrong with it except the 100K miles. Hindsight....
  • escobarjdncescobarjdnc Member Posts: 1
    I have a 2006 Nissan Maxima SL, which I purchased about a year and a half ago. After about 14 months of ownership, the interior lights stopped working (dome lights, door lights). Researching on the internet led me to find that the "Battery Saver" fuse, a 10A fuse in the box below to the left of the steering wheel had blown. I replaced this on June 26th of this year, only for it to blow again on Aug. 12th, and yet again today. Today when I went to replace the fuse again, it immediately sparked and blew the fuse upon touching the contacts in the fuse box - so the problem has obviously come to a head. Anyone have any advise on diagnosing the circuit problem?
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Try a Maxima thread - might have more luck there than in a Sedona thread.
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