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Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

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Comments

  • caliddcalidd Posts: 60
    Have any safety improvements been made to the 2007 MKZ? Also, anyone seen a side-by-side safety comparison between the MKZ, the Lexus ES350, and the Acura TL?
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    "Have any safety improvements been made to the 2007 MKZ?"

    Sure, they changed the name from 'Zephyr'. This way, it'll have to be tested again so Ford can say 'Well the 2006 Zephyr tested poorly but the results for the 2007 MK Z are not in yet.

    "Also, anyone seen a side-by-side safety comparison between the MKZ, the Lexus ES350, and the Acura TL?"

    Here ya go, Sailor: http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=15

    On this page you'll see ALL the competitors have better crash ratings than the Zephyr. WAY TO GO FORWARD, FORD.

    BTW, on this page:
    http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=10

    you can see that the LS has Equal or BETTER crash test ratings than ALL it's competitors except the Volvo S80! Good news for the MK S? Or will Ford win the safety battle and dumb it down from Volvo specs? I know where my money goes if a few pennies are saved.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Posts: 396
    George: In this article http://tinyurl.com/plnvp The MKS will be built on the same platform as the Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego sedans that are built in Chicago, but it features a sleeker and more powerful design. I'm not sure where Volvo enters or what specs you refer to, but others in another article mention the front hood as being similar to the S80.

    The MKZ is mentioned in the article.. Just so we keep on topic.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Posts: 396
    Mercury leaps ahead in dependability while Lincoln falls back..

    http://tinyurl.com/qpwll
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,671
    The 500 and Montego use the D3 platform which was derived from the Volvo S80 platform.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Posts: 396
    Thanks for reminding me Allen..
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    "The 500 and Montego use the D3 platform which was derived from the Volvo S80 platform."

    True true. To go further, in the article I read, these 2 and the MK S are on the 'D385' platform. There was also going to be a larger Lincoln on a stretched 'D386' platform. According to the article it is this bigger car that has been cancelled.

    This article said the MK S replaces the Town Car. Well, the TC is a whole lot bigger than the MK S , ain't it? To me, the MK S 'replaces' the LS as it's similar in size. But I guess Lincoln thinks the MK Z replaces the LS? even tho it's smaller. So if the big car is cancelled, then the MK S is the flagship? And that leaves the Lincoln lineup after 2008 with the following:

    MK Z
    MK S
    MK X
    Navigator
    Mark LT

    Then there's the 'people-mover' that ANT's referred to, to be based on the Ford Fairlane concept. Let's call it the 'MK P'

    So by 2009, Lincoln will be selling 2 trucks (LT and Nav) 2 crossovers (X and P) and 2 sedans (S and Z). This compares with 1999-2000 when Lincoln was the best selling luxo brand and they had the following lineup:

    LS
    Navigator
    Mark VIII
    Continental
    Town Car

    4 cars and 1 truck. Are they moving in the right direction? Obviously they never replaced the Mark VIII with another perfomance coupe and the Continental hole was never filled either.

    Last, the D386 prototype vehicles (there were 2 of em) must then be what I saw in focus group a year ago. They resembled the MK S but were definitely bigger - more Town Car sized. As I've said before, either of these cars would make beautiful flagship Lincoln models. They were stunning. Either would have been a real replacement for the TC and would have filled out the Lincoln lineup with 3 related sedans with definite 'move-up' path for buyers.

    Alas, apparently not to be. Like the Continental concept and the Mark IX or X and Navicross.

    The livery-business money Lincoln will lose because of no Town Car will be hard to make up won't it? I can't see the MK S as a livery car, can u?
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    The livery-business money Lincoln will lose because of no Town Car will be hard to make up won't it? I can't see the MK S as a livery car, can u?

    Not any more than I can see the Infiniti M, Acura RL, Lexus GS or Passat 3.6 (all of which the MKS more or less resembles) as livery vehicles.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    What's your point? Infiniti etc are NOT presently making $$$s on the livery market. Lincoln makes a lot of $$$s from it but will make ZERO after the Town Car is gone and "replaced" by the Emm Kay Ess.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    My point was exactly your point. I was agreeing with you.

    I only added that not only is the MKZ no Town car replacement, but it could be mistaken for a Japanese mid-size luxury car.
  • If MKS has the same suspension as 500 then Volvo becomes more upscale brand. It may surpass Lincoln.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Posts: 396
    Since Volvo is in Ford's PAG (Premier Automotive Group) and Lincoln is not I would have no problem agreeing with your statement.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    I guess I misunderstood. Tho I also don't understand this sentence, unless u meant 'S' not 'Z'. Gee arent't these new Lincoln names so cooool?

    "I only added that not only is the MKZ no Town car replacement, but it could be mistaken for a Japanese mid-size luxury car."

    And I just realized that Lincoln may be down to selling only ONE CAR, the Emm Kay Zee, between the time the Town Car goes out of production and the MK S comes on line. One 'Lincoln' car and it's a stretched Mazda. Yep, that's the Lincoln brand I grew up with.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Let's define "Large". The MKS will be larger than the TC. IN trunk space, and interior actually. As for exterior length, they are pretty close to one another. The MKS makes use of better interior architecture, something the archaic Town Car, simple can't.

    The E386, is essentially the same, but longer and differently styled. Think 300/Imperial concept. That still hasn't been approved, and it's still sometime before a decision is made either way.

    Also, the MKS won't share much suspension componentry with the 500. Totally different senarios actually and can't go into details, but they are different.

    The Town Car will be dropped, just when the MKS is introduced. There won't be a lapse time, from one vehicle to another.

    Also, aside from the people mover, there's a possibility of an anti-people mover as well if you MUST. ANGry fans have been asking for.

    Navivross was actually approved but changes in management killed it weeks later, so it was a still born project. But in esssense, the Fairlane concept resurects and betters the initial idea.

    By 2010, you'll have a full line of Lincolns. And probably more than there was at any point.

    BTW, the "Panther" platform needs to be heavily altered by 2010-2012 because of federal crash standards that will phase in on those years. This pertains to the location/placement of fuel tanks. The option is, spend millions to retrofit/redesign the platform, or just replace the vehicles/platform altogether.

    It's obvious what the decision has been. And while it is a profit cow for Ford, the stigma/perception associated with the vehicle can/has tarnished to some degree in people's mind. So change is in order.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    The MKS will of course be classified as a large car by the EPA, and like the 500, it will have a large trunk. To say that it will have more interior space than the Town Car is a matter of perception. It is possible to eek out full-size space in a mid-size chassis, but usually it is done using more headroom and slightly less interior width. Thus, to many people, the perception of "more space" will not be that apparent.

    In any event, Lincoln had planned a bigger model than the MKS to replace the Town Car. The plan was for the MKS to be the LS replacement. However, stretching the 500 chassis even more than the already stretched S would not result in a car with good proportions. So now the MKS has to cover the Town Car hole.

    The people who killed the Navicross have no clue. Even if they are smart enough now to give the "people mover" Lincoln--taken off the Fairlane concept--its own body (i.e., more differentiation than just Lincoln grill, rear styling and interior tacked onto the Fairlane), the bone-headed managers' decision on the Navicross resulted in delaying this new model for years.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Yup, you got me. I meant MKS, not MKZ.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    ANT:

    THanks for the info. I have some comments and questions which you are free to of course answer or ignore or say you can't answer.

    - Emm Kay Ess: Yes, might be as big inside and in trunk as TC but it's not a "full size" car in the manner of the TC and GM and CV is it? Blue hairs won't like it, I think I can guarantee. And it's NEVER smart to ignore your loyal customers, even if they are a dying breed.

    - 386 chassis is stretched S80 too but stretched longer than MKS? I'm SURE I saw two prototypes for that and they were as I've said stunning cars (either was better looking than the S for sure IMHO) which would please not only the blue hairs, but anyone looking for a large stylish vehicle. The ONLY reason to cancel that car would be lack of development $$$s, again IMHO. In fact were I in charge of Lincoln (not so far-fetched seeing the people who actually HAVE been in charge recently) I would build the more sedate-looking 386 concept to replace the TC and would replace the S with a shortened version of the 'sportier' 386 concept- the one with full-width tail lights and sporty roof line. Those two would be perfectly suitable stablemates and provide a nice growth path up (and AWAY) from the Mazda - oops, MK Z.

    - Having the MK S as the largest Lincoln is definitely a MAJOR change in Lincoln's market placement. It's a mid size car as I see it.

    - People mover sheeple mover. I don't see a Lincoln version of the Fairlane concept as something that many folks would want. Unless of course THAT is the new livery vehicle and can be stretched to 8 doors.

    - Where is the GD Mustang-based Mercury Cougar? If Ford is developing a Lincoln version of the pony car INSTEAD of a Mercury Cougar then I think Ford execs need to spend much more couch time with their shrinks. While they still have money to pay their shrinks that is.

    - Since the closing of Wixom is already scheduled (ANOTHER mistake IMO, but what do I know?) the date of the Town Car's demise is pretty well fixed. OTOH, the Mark S is in development and apparently is still awaiting a Fields fix-up change-up job, I will predict right here and now that the intro of the S will lag the demise of the TC by months at least. After all, if it's to be a 2008 model, then it should hit the streets in Sept 2007, a year away. No way IMHO that Ford can get a car built in a year whose design has not even been finalized yet. Any $$$ takers?

    - It is my opinion that Lincoln dis-approved the Navicross because it was a McGovern design. ANd probably the FANTASTIC Continental Concept was dropped for the same reason. WHY oh WHY is Lincoln trying to look like Lexus (and the S looks almost identical in sideview to the 06 Lexus) when they had such a beautiful retro-Lincoln look in the CC??? Do the powers at Ford REALLY think Lexus buyers are going to look twice at a Lincoln that looks like a three year old Lexus?

    - WHY oh WHY did Lincoln do this incredibly STOOOPID name thing? It's ridiculous. Again, they're trying to be LEXUS. IT AIN'T gonna work, MK my words. The whole concept was not thought out and is stupid. First, Lincoln tells us that the pronunciation should be "Mark Z" and "Mark S". Then they say, "No, we really didn't mean that, we meant it to be "Emm Kay Zee" and "Emm Kay Ess"" And some including me are confused is it "MK Z" or "MKZ"? And why the heck do they have a "Mark LT" that is a pickup truck??? Is there anyone at Lincoln who recalls that the "Mark" name has always been applied to coupes (maybe some sedans, I dunno)? WHY the truck? ANd if the truck is "Mark" then WHY would they not call the cars "Mark" as well??? Then they wouldn't have to explain how to pronounce it and they would have some CONSISTENCY across the brand, which BTW, Lexus DOES and Lincoln will NOT with Mark this and MK that and where the he__ does 'Navigator" fit in??? Please tell them for me with all due respect that they look ridiculous and STOOOPID. If they wanna go this way, go "Mark S" and "Mark Z" forgawd'ssake. At least then there'll be CONSISTENCY and no DOUBT about pronunciation and the name "Mark" is a strong Lincoln icon.

    - In 2010 then we'll see (I'll use my names so as to make it look more consistent and well thought out:

    * Navigator (let's get it out of the way) - MAYBE, assuming gas prices don't kill it by then.
    * Mark LT (Same assumption as above)
    * Mark Mustang (I'll believe this when I see it)
    * Mark PM (People Mover, AKA MiniVan)
    * Mark S (Flagship Sedan)
    * Mark X (assuming this butt ugly thing actually sells)
    * Mark Z

    SO that's 4 trucks/crossovers and 3 cars. Does Ford REALLY see the market moving that way?
  • Is MKS similar in size to Mercedes S class? Is it really larger than STS? Who are MKS competition?
  • The MKS is bigger than the STS and the s-class is 205 inches while the the MKS is 203 inches.I hope that helps a little bit.
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    You are right. It seems that Ford execs took stupid pills the day they decided on this nomenclature. No one in America, or anywhere else in the world will have a clue what an MKS is - and - if Ford follows typical U.S. form, none of these titles will last long before the car dies or is replaced by the next series of letters. There are so many similar sets of "letters" out there now that the REAL differentiators are those cars with true "Names"! I bet that Honda execs still regret giving up "Legend" for "RL", but they did it because they MUST follow the Europeans who have for decades named their cars the same thing (what a concept!!). Too bad that none of these seven figure guys can understand that it is about consistency, not specific nomenclature that matters. NO ONE is going to figure out what and MKS is vs. an MKX UNLESS they are around for MANY years. Don't hold your breath.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    Hmmm.

    Xr4Ti?

    Remember what a smashing success that was? Seems to me that was also the product of marketers at The Ford Motor Company. Sigh.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    How do you define "full size" pertaining to the MKS. I mean, the current Taurus straddled between mid-size, is almost full-size. Even in some rental car agencies it was classified as fullsize. The MKS IS fullsize. Many of it's dimensions will be bigger than that of the TC. And most importantly, useable dimensions. Case in point, the TC/GM/CV have a large trunk, yet it's unusual shape doesn't let you maximize it's use. The exterior won't be as large as that of the TC, but it's a bit higher and wider.

    Ford has given specific timing on the demise of certain vehicles. Taurus was to have died over a year ago...just finished production recently. THe Essex engines were to have been replaced 2 years ago...they are still being produced. Etc. Lets not forget if the demand is there and Wixom closes, the tools/dies/part can be used at the same plant building CV/GM. And even then, enough TC's will be built over, if the MKS introduction is pushed back a bit.

    Navicross was killed because it was deemed not sufficiently profittable, and soon after the decision to allow Jaguar soul use of DEW98 platform made it stillborn.

    I agree, the Markie Mark nomeclature is a bit rediculous. But it's more about brand identity. If you say "I Have a Zephyr", people can't grasp it, don't have a clue. If you say "I have a Lincoln MKZ", then people know who makes it... it's the LINCOLN part that Ford wants people to say. I can somewhat get used to that, it's the "Mark" thing. Mark this, Mark that, Mark my words...

    The above planned vehicles willl be profittable, and while each one is not expected to sell at 100K+ volumes, it'll be profittable in low volumes which is the key point. Yes, 1999 was a steller year for Lincoln sales considering having maybe 3 products at that time. Considering so many went to fleet sales, doesn't do well for various other factors such as resale value, perception, etc.

    Previously the thought was "We have an idle factory, we need to build 50K units to make everyone work, GO !" and many things were compromised along the way that hurt Ford. The key is profittable vehicles at lower volumes that people actually want, while offering more choices...not innundating the marketplace with vehicles just to not have a factory sit idle.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    "NO ONE is going to figure out what and MKS is vs. an MKX UNLESS they are around for MANY years."

    Waht about CTS, STS, and DTS. There doesn't seem to be a problem there and Cadi just made the change. I think we can be sorry the names are gone but that doesn't mean the strategy won't work because there are so many examples of it working. RDX, MDX comes to mind.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    Ask the average luxury car buyer who even makes RDX, MDX. I doubt ten percent of them could even tell you. And if they don't know, they very likely won't consider your brand.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Since the MDX has been one of Acura's shining stars since its introduction, I don't think the facts support your theory. Or dare I bring the RX into this convo which has led luxury SUV sales for forever and a day. Fact is, though we may not like the names, that does not make it a bad business strategy. I believe those in the market for the vehicles mentioned, definitely know what makes they are from.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    Really? I don't think the RX branding story is a legend. Or, perhaps, it is.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,671
    He's talking about the Lexus RX330 crossover, not the Acura RL sedan. I assume that's what you meant by the legend comment.
  • the MKS interior will NOT look liekt he concept. the thing looks old enough to be in your great grandpa's first car.

    They need to to look fresh and modern. Electrolumiescent gages, blue lighting, aluminum mixed with wood (different shades should be available) and it must be well executed. The one thig i dislike about the MKZ (other than the made in mexico part) is the interrior looks to be too much of an old mans land.

    They can fix this with the MKS without drastically departing fromthe style. For example, the 2007 navi interrior is hurling over the toilet on new years discusting, but the 2006, with much the same style looks fresher and better. The same can be done for the MKS.

    Like the MKZ, the exterrior of the MKS is pretty spot on. They could put chrome around the side lincoln symbol, and make it light up, but otherwise its OK. The interrior sucks, and no amount of good materials will help the bad design.
  • bigtbigt Posts: 412
    I thought they brought in an outside designer to fine tune the MKZ interior. I agree with you that some chrome, pin lights, and some different color lights could really make the car stand out. I just took a look at the 2007 model lineup and I cannot say that anything really knocks my socks off (all manufactures) except the stuff I really cannot afford. I am surprised at the fuel mileage (or lack of) in the 2007's across the board. Where are all the hybrids?
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