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Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

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Comments

  • tiger16tiger16 Member Posts: 54
    akirby, do me a favor if you please. Also ask your inside source why MKZ only offers 7 exterior colors. I was set for dark blue with tan interior but, no blue is offered. It's kind of bizarre that at least 9 colors are offered on Fusion, Milan and MKS but, only 7 on the MKZ.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    My source is an engineer and wouldn't know about color choices - that's a marketing decision. They do that from time to time - drop a particular color. My guess is the dark blue didn't sell very well in the past.
  • And to be fair, gas mileage is still better than the 2006 Zephyr and 2007 MKZ. I suspect the 1 mpg doesn't translate into much difference in the real world, and it is probably due to the retuning to make the previous pokey 0-60 time (for a 263 hp engine) competitive with the ES350 et al.
  • A good review and about what I would expect to be said about it..though I disagree that the new tail lights are ugly. I think they are quite an improvement over the previous ones, and have moved a bit closer to what Lincoln tail lights will look like on future models. That said, I do wish Ford would take the Hyundai approach (it was also the Lexus approach years ago) of giving near-Lexus quality and feel at a significantly lower price, in order to build recognition and market share of this model (then raising the price later). Giving more standard equipment at the same price doesn't necessarily accomplish the same thing. What is going to happen once again--as it does with most Ford products--is the expectation of large discounts when buying new, which markedly depresses resale value...and overall perception of the vehicle. Bottom line is, the MKZ is now nipping at Lexus heels, not surpassing it. Charge Lexus prices when Lincoln has actually changed the general perception of the buying public that it is as good or better than a Lexus. And that takes time.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    That seems like a reasonable and prudent approach.
  • bobgwtwbobgwtw Member Posts: 187
  • bobgwtwbobgwtw Member Posts: 187
    Had an opportunity to drive the 10 MKZ this weekend. It's quiet & is actually enjoyable to drive on the curving, rolling secondary roads I had an opportunity to drive, as well as the interstate.The car had the sport suspension so it rode like they forgot to put the springs under it on anything but a smooth road. (I had just driven a Fusion Hybrid over the same route & it was as quiet or quieter than the Z. It handled as well & the ride was much, much better on the rough patches). Interior is nice & of decent quality, but a lot of the switchgear is placed so it's necessary to take your eyes off the road to operate it.

    My one real complaint about the car is price. I want adaptive headlights, BU camera & the blindspot/cross traffic system that, after using them, I consider worthwhile safety additions, The only way I can get them on the Z is to buy packages containing items I don't want or need; and they push the sticker price to well over $40,000. This not a $40,000 car. A comparable Fusion, minus the adaptive headlights, with a less upscale interior lists for $11,000 less! This one is off my short list.
  • tiger16tiger16 Member Posts: 54
    In a previous post, I mentioned that Ford was careless with the pricing of the 2010 MKZ. IMO they have bumped up the price too much. They'll need big rebates to sell the car and that's not good for a car attempting to establish itself in this market segment. Another poster stated that the increase was in large part due to some items being made standard. I get that but, it doesn't change the fact that the price has gone up quite a bit. I think it a bit foolhardy for Ford to think that they can price the Z at the ES price point at this time especially when the Z is still lacking some of those refined touches that define such a car.
    As far as the options go, I too was frustrated when I went through the Z site and found that to get certain things, I had to order packages that included things I didn't want. If I didn't want them in the first place, I surely don't want to have to pay for them. I know other companies do the same thing, doesn't make it right. Making these things standalone options would help sales of the Z, IMO.
    I test drove the 07 and 08 Z and didn't like the ride. I thought it was a bit stiff. I would have no interest in the sport suspension. Glad they made that an option.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    They'll need big rebates to sell the car

    And you know this how? Just because it seems overpriced to you doesn't mean other buyers feel the same.

    Besides - Hermosillo is limited to about 300,000 Fusions, Milans and MKZs per year - total and the new Fusion and Milan should be able to sell almost that many on their own. Sounds like they decided to make the MKZ lower volume but higher profit. You may not like it but given the circumstances it sounds like the right business decision. I guess only time will tell.

    If the Fulans can sell close to 300,000 units on their own then my guess would be that with the next redesign the MKZ will get all of the currently missing features plus 100% unique sheetmetal and possibly move to another plant. But that's probably 3 years out.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    My source says the gearing was changed for 2010 for better acceleration which dropped FE from 28 to 27 highway. As I said before 27 still matches the competition but acceleration is better than the 2009 model. Sounds like a decent tradeoff.
  • huskie13huskie13 Member Posts: 10
    I traded in my 2006 Zephyr for the 2010 MKZ ultimate sport, Black.
    It is a blast to drive, it is quite, fast, and drives like so much better than my Zephyr. my car is number 1196 if i am reading the vin right.
  • tiger16tiger16 Member Posts: 54
    I have a Zephyr and will be getting a 2010 "something." One complaint I have with my 06 is engine noise during acceleration - it can get rather raucous. It just doesn't have that refined sound. How is the engine sound with the 10? When you say the 10 drives so much better than the 06, how so? Ride comfort? Handling? I'm much more interested in a comfortable ride. I got rid of my Maxima because I could no longer take the stiff suspension and I didn't get a pre-10 MKZ because I thought the MKZ's ride was somewhere between the Maxima and my 06.
    Also, out of curiosity, what audio system did you get? I kicked off a few posts concerning CD changer vs the new THX so, I'm a little interested in what buyers are going for.
  • huskie13huskie13 Member Posts: 10
    Tiger, the 10's engine is very refined, that was also one of my dislikes, when I got my Zephyr, i also test drove a ES350. and after that i didn't like the Zephyr that much. this engine is much more refined, sounds good, and has no vibration at idle.

    As I got the sport version the ride is stiff, but after the zephyr, i wanted that way as I like a performance feeling car.

    I have the THX and it sounds better than the Zephyr, very clear, but does not seem as loud? With the option of burning CDs to the HD way would you need a changer?

    let me know if you have any other questions.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,685
    Am I correct that the only way to get the THX is in the package with the sunroof? That won't work for me...
  • beradberad Member Posts: 31
    I agree rebates will be needed to sell this car. The local Lincoln dealer has been moving the current generation well over a year by advertising it at $26K. The 2010 will have to find its way into this territory to move as well. That being said, the MKZ in a sub $30K territory will be very attractive against the family sedan competition and should have really its eyes set on the Acura TSX. The MKZ north of $34K enters into the land of the TL, G35, 3 Series, GS, CTS where its not just as refined in overall dynamics to compete.

    All that being said, I would wait till the 09 inventory is gone before buying this car. The discounts will come as they always do. If the 2010 rolls down to $26K it becomes a very compelling buy.
  • tiger16tiger16 Member Posts: 54
    Just happened to drive by the dealership where I bought my Zephyr and parked right out front by the road was a 2010 MKZ in black and tan interior. I pulled in and my Z salesman was there and offered me a test drive so, I went for it. Here are my observations comparing to my Z and strictly IMO.
    Mechanical: More powerful and refined engine. Slightly better ride. Not quite as good as the ES but, better than my Z. Quieter. Again not quite the ES but, pretty quiet. Seemed to handle about the same.
    Exterior: The first thing I noticed was the really big grill. It appears overdone. It's not as nice as the MKS front end. The MKZ grill reminded me of a mouthfull of horse teeth. Maybe it's something I could get used to but, for now, it just seems too massive. An article I read stated that the old ugly tail lights were replaced with new ugly tail lights. I agree. In fact, I like the old better. The new tail lights gave me the impression of a work in progress as though the back end wasn't finished yet. It reminded me of days gone by when the neighborhood kids would try and customize a car. They couldn't afford to go all out on it so, they would just replace what was there with something non-descript and you could see that something just wasn't right. Other than the grill and tail lights the exterior appeared identical.
    Interior: This is what really disappointed me. I didn't like it. The dash has a better layout but, it's downhill from there. The first thing that jumps out at you is the immense amount of black (even with the tan interior). Two thirds of the dash is black, the console is black and one third of the door panels is black. Even the seat trim piping (which I detest) is black. The scant amount of interior wood is lost in all of that black and is barely noticeable. It created a very dark and somber feeling; not at all like the light, cheery feel of my Z. I even prefer the old steering wheel. While sitting in the car, at no time did I get the impression that I was sitting in a "luxury" car. It just doesn't seem to convey that kind of dynamic. It quite honestly, felt more like a Fusion. It needs more wood, way less black and a little more elegance and less pedestrain feel. Even without the piping, the seats don't look anywhere near as rich and inviting as the ES.
    The 2010 MKZ is the car that should have been introduced in 06. Then, I think a 2010 refreshening could have made this car competive with the ES, CTS, Infinti, etc. I think it's still behind. And what is really going to punish sales is the new price point. The only options on the car on the lot was the Nav/stereo and moonroof. With tax, it came to almost $41K!!!! THIS IS NOT A $41,000 CAR. I believe this car to be at least $5K over priced. I think for this car to sell, Ford needs to come out with rebates in the $3000 to $3500 range. Otherwise, it's going to get killed. How many people out there are going to buy the MKZ when they can get a pretty much comparably equipped ES or Acura for the same price? I don't think many.
    Ford could have done a much better job on the 2010. IMO, the MKZ presents itself better online than it does in person. I really wanted to like this car but, I just don't. Check it out.
    Again, IMO.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Given the current success of the Fusion and Milan and the fact that Hermosillo can only build 300K or so CD3s including the MKZ - I suspect that Ford is willing to cut back on MKZ volume and go for higher transaction prices.

    And while it may not have as much wood, the new interior looks way better than the old one. I actually bought a Fusion back in 05 over the Zephyr because of the interior. The wood was nice but the angle and design was terrible.

    IMO of course.
  • IMO, the new grill and tail lights are an improvement. The old grill was too pedestrian, too anonymous. The new tail lights are more like the Lincoln signature, going almost (but not quite...don't know why they didn't extend them all the way) across the back.

    Your complaint about the interior is mostly about color. Some people prefer black interiors, but I don't like them either. Too much black, but to each his or her own. The 2010 interior however does use better materials and has better cut lines. To me it looks more competitive.

    And the thing is quiet. That is a must for a luxury car. Ford should have cut the price while giving more equipment. That is working for other companies. Bottom line, the current MKZ no matte what they do will be an also-ran until the next generation gives Lincoln something unique from a loaded Fusion.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    I’ll second gregg_vw, to a point and offer a counterpoint to tiger16. My wife and I drove a 2010 MKZ a few weeks ago – silver with black interior. We thought it was quiet, rode with a nice balance of smoothness and road feel, and the engine didn’t sound too thrashy. Maybe we have low standards.

    We liked the black interior, although we wouldn’t buy black just for the heat gain, and didn’t think it looked too somber. We did look at a couple with the parchment interior, and I thought the combination of tan and black looked good. I also thought the interior was a great improvement over the 2009 MKZ in terms of design, ergonomics, and apparent materials quality.

    As for the exterior styling, I think the taillights are a vast improvement and are what they should have been from the beginning. While the grill will obviously be polarizing, I liked it, too, although I like the 2002 Continental concept grill better. But, the split wing grill is very distinctive.

    Shortly after our test drive I saw a red 2010 MKZ on the road and thought “that’s one sharp looking car”.
  • tiger16tiger16 Member Posts: 54
    I agree the old grill was too pedestrian but, I think the new grill is overdone. They got it right on the MKS. And yes, while the interior needs to be more elegant, my biggest beef is with that extraordinary amount of black. It seems to suck the life out of the cabin. The lines are better but, greatly reducing the dull black throughout the cabin would be a huge improvement. And it really does need more wood, especially on the console.
    My Z has been the most dependable, trouble free car I have ever owned and I truly wanted to get the MKZ this coming December/January. But, I honestly don't like it. I believe you are right when you say the MKZ will be an also ran until the next generation. I'm afraid that by then, the MKZ will be defined by the buying public as just that - an also ran. If that's the case the MKZ will continue to struggle with sales. It was important for Ford to nail it with this revision and they simply didn't do it. It's an improvement but, after the 06, 07, 08 and 09, the 10 should have been better.
    More and more, it seems as though the consensus on this board is that the 2010 MKZ is over priced. No reason to think that the buying public will think anything different.
    I know this is the MKZ board but, does anyone know how sales are with the MKS? I'm on I-95 and the Baltimore beltway everyday and I have seen only one.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I know this is the MKZ board but, does anyone know how sales are with the MKS?

    Through April, YTD sales of the MKS totaled 5,775 and the MKZ was 6,706.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    One reason for the black dash is to avoid windshield glare. Not saying it's the only reason, but it's one reason. This was a huge issue with 07 Edges.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    More and more, it seems as though the consensus on this board is that the 2010 MKZ is over priced. No reason to think that the buying public will think anything different.

    My wife saw the MKZ sitting next to the Milan and wondered about the price difference, too. In her mind, the styling differences and badge weren't worth the extra dollars. I believe akirby has said the Z offers more sound deadening, thicker side glass, maybe some doodads its stable mates don't, and pointed that out to her. We probably should have driven the Milan or Fusion back to back with the MKZ in order to judge the ride, quiet, etc. But, point is, you may be right about what the buying public thinks. Lincoln has a tough road to travel to turn perceptions around.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I had the same issue with the Edge and MKX. I've owned a LS and an Aviator and generally prefer the Lincoln versions. But after looking at the MKX I concluded the only difference that mattered to us were the cooled seats and that wasn't worth the $6K price difference. I actually preferred the Edge dash over the MKX.

    Given the 2010 MKZ was just a mid cycle refresh, I think Ford did a heck of a lot more than should be expected. Who puts out a brand new car and puts in new interiors, new front and rear clips and 4 new drivetrains after only 3.5 years (not 4)? Nobody.

    When the new models arrive in 3 years or so I think you'll see unique sheetmetal all the way around (like the MKS) and a more cohesive design along with more amenities and a new drivetrain. By then Ford will be over the hump on the new products (Fiesta, Explorer, Focus) and will have more resources to spare.
  • theman123theman123 Member Posts: 170
    Well here's another one. Automotive Addicts test drove the 2010 MKZ and came away very impressed.

    Your Thoughts :shades:
    Automotive Addicts review of the 2010 Lincoln MKZ
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    It won't matter how good is the write-up. There are too many around here who will always see it as a tarted up Ford.
  • Because it is a Fusion with some interior changes, and different front and rear clips. The Fusion is a good car, but $42K is a bit steep for a loaded one.
  • tiger16tiger16 Member Posts: 54
    Waiting in the mailbox Friday was a package from L-M. It contained a simple brochure on the entire Lincoln line with an offer of $750 back if I purchased, specifically, the new MKZ. I believed rebates/incentives would be coming but, I didn't think just 4 weeks after intro. Doesn't look good.
    I went back to the L-M dealership to have another look, in case I could be persuaded when the big rebates start. I liked the interior even less the second time. There's more black than I first thought: almost the whole dash, the console, 1/3 of the door panels, the carpet, door pillars, lower interior door wells and piping. Wow, might as well make everything black. I wonder if those of you that say you prefer the new interior are, in fact, focusing on the new dash and lines and not the entire package. The new lines are an improvement but, I actually prefer the old interior overall. To me, it has a more elegant look and feel about it. Reducing all of that black would really help. Here's a somewhat funny story that I swear is true. I had just gotten out if the new MKZ when a salesmann came over. He asked how I liked it. I said too much black inside for me. He said, well that's the charcoal interior. If you got the camel interior it wouldn't be so dark. I said, it is the camel interior. No, he said, this has the charcoal. I said, you better check. He walked over to the car, looked in the window and still refused to admit it was the tan until he looked at the invoice. Finally, he said, you're right, it is the tan. Said the car has been on the lot for 2 weeks and the whole time he thought it had the charcoal interior. I felt vidicated.
    Anyway, Ford has made a grave error in pricing this car at over $34K. The price point puts it right in the middle of some serious heavyweight competitors at the same time the buying public essentially considers the MKZ nothing more than a loaded Fusion. Therefore, they either get a loaded Fusion and pocket about $12K or they buy elsewhere. Perception is everything. This is set up to be a sales disaster.
    Here's my suggestions to Ford:
    1. Lower the base to just under $30K. For now, this is where this car should be.
    2. Get rid of the interior black overload. This will give it a more rich, elegant look.
    3. Offer an interior upgrade option. More wood on dash & doors.
    There are other improvements needed but, for 2010, they are not doable. The things I listed can be done quite easily. I think Ford really has to do something quick. Mechanically, I think the MKZ is competitive but, I don't think it has the look and feel the buying public has in mind at the current price point.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I prefer black dashes and I've owned several with tan dashes over the years. I did think the older model tan dash used good materials and looked nice but the design did nothing for me at all. I would like to see more wood available on both the MKZ, MKX and MKS.

    I think you're overestimating the sales targets for this vehicle. Since Hermosillo can only produce 300,000 vehicles (including Fusion, Milan and MKZ and including exports to South and Latin America) and the Fusion and Milan sales are expected to be quite high I think Ford will be happy with lower volume and higher profits on each one.

    The point is you can't look at the MKZ as a stand alone vehicle due to production capacity limitations.
  • tiger16tiger16 Member Posts: 54
    I actually do agree on the top of the dash being black. It's just the copious amount of black used everywhere else. Although I don't like an all black interior, I think you can get away with it. The problem here is the attempt to integrate the over use of black with another color. It just doesn't work.
    A few minutes ago I was at a traffic light behind a new black Avalon and that reminded me of something else I thought peculiar when I was at the L-M dealership on Saturday. Since they dropped the navy blue on the new MKZ, my next choice was black. However, it's not black - it's black metallic with a gazillion gold flecks. From a distance it looks black but, up close, it kind of grays out. And depending on the angle, it can really look "different." Next to the MKZ was an SUV of some sort and, like the Avalon, it was a true black. Deep and glossy, what black should be. The sticker didn't indicate a special paint so, I'm assuming you can't get true black exterior paint in the MKZ. That's really weird.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    However, it's not black - it's black metallic with a gazillion gold flecks.

    It is tuxedo black - first introduced on the MKS last year. Now it has spread to the MKZ and Fusion. You are right - the traditional gloss black clearcoat is not available. Apparently a lot of people like the tuxedo black. I don't happen to be one of them. It looks like a dark gray to me - or black with a coat of dust on it.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,256
    the tuxedo black exterior paint looks great to me.
    it would probably be tough to paint match for a repair though.
    i would want it over a straight black.
    to me, lincolns look best in black.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • alakersonalakerson Member Posts: 9
    I want to stir things up a bit on this board, so I'll recount my recent car shopping experience.

    Just finished looking at Infiniti, Audi, BMW middle lines, plus AWD MKZ Quickly ruled out Lexus 350 as too boring. It came down to the Bimmer vs MKZ. Back-to-back test drives led to my choosing the Lincoln. You're probably thinking I'm either a fossil or a wacko, and in either case I probably wear a white belt and white shoes and still watch Lawrence Welk and Love Boat reruns.

    Nope -- I'm not 500 years old. In fact, I've leased both a 528i (my favorite car in 40 years of buying cars) and an MKZ in recent years, and was really wanting another Bimmer.

    In favor of the MKZ -- A surprise to me: More acceleration than the 528 (not the 535 though); quieter running; much more comfortable seating (even without factoring in the cooled seats) more back seat legroom, fold-down seats at no extra charge, backup camera and BLIS vs. BMW's front/back sensors, better driver crash ratings (I found that hard to believe, so I doublechecked: five stars for the MKZ driver and three (!?!?!?) for the BMW. Lincoln --better sound system, though I could care less about Synch (like I'll ever figure THAT THING out!) MPG roughly comparable, but Lincoln does it with "regular."

    MKZ price was about $12-14K less, but that was far from the deciding factor. Going into the process, I knew the BMW would be that much more, but I still in my heart of hearts wanted the Bimmer. Until I drove them back to back.

    Looks -- defnitely subjective. But both interiors seemed a little plainer than I would have liked, though in different ways. Too much Ford in the MKZ interior, but much too bland in the BMW and with needless, affected starter button. Exteriors: To me the Lincoln design (albeit as one forum writer put it, a tarted Fusion) equals or betters the BMW. I've never been a Bangle fan though, and neither exterior is merits any special praise to my mind.

    Against the MKZ -- dealer experience. Long drawn out waits (at times, 15-20 minutes) in the not-to-classy Lincoln showroom while the sales person went behind the curtain to confer the Wizard of Oz. Lack of inventory at the Lincoln store -- had to order it. Zero MKZ dealer discount vs. $3k discount from BMW. No loaners for the MKZ when being serviced, but always available BMW loaners at the BMS dealer. BMW showroom and service areas immaculate, professional looking as befitting the brand. As for the Lincoln digs, they're shoved into what used to be the used car building(?) adjacent to the dealer's Ford store, with people nearly tripping over one another, and room for only one car on the floor at most.

    Also working against the MKZ -- absolutely no cachet, prestige or whatever you want to call it. None, no how and no way. Zilch. What I usually got with the last MKZ from people was something like, "Hey sharp car -- what kind is it?!" When I'd tell them, the subject changed.

    One other point -- yes, certainly in the hands of a competent sports car nut, or professonal driver, the BMW will out-everything the Lincoln. But unless I inadvertently become a star feature on "World's Greatest Police Chase Videos," I will never need or experience the differences. And beside -- even a Bimmer can't outrun the LA traffic copters.
  • IMHO, a good (and balanced) review. Anyone being honest has to admit the MKZ has many positive attributes. It is all the rest of the stuff that holds it back (the Fusion body, Lincoln's lamentably-but-deservedly depleted cachet, the car being quite good enough to compete--but not the standout it needs to be to help re-build the brand, the lack of dealer coddling of Lincoln customers). Hyundai has the right idea: make an outstanding car (Genesis, Equus) that goes way beyond expectations and build it to compete with cars that cost thousands, perhaps 10's of thousands more (in the case of the Equus). Hyundai just passed Ford in sales. They must know something. Lincoln spent what remained of its prestige by the middle of this decade. Now it needs to earn it back, and mere good efforts like MKZ won't help that along much.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't disagree, but I really think any big investment in the MKZ at this point would be somewhat wasted given the factory volume limitations in Hermosillo and the popularity of the Fusion. If the Fusion continues to grow (no reason it shouldn't) and the automotive market rebounds then Ford will be close to plant capacity on just the Fusion and Milan alone.

    I think Ford will have to wait for the Fusion/Mondeo merger where we'll see a new U.S. plant in addition to Hermosillo and we'll see the Milan dropped and the Fusion move upmarket some (just like the Taurus). That will allow the MKZ to also move upmarket with unique sheetmetal and Lincoln's best gadgets and powertrains.
  • tiger16tiger16 Member Posts: 54
    I have no idea what will happen to Lincoln (or Mercury but, that 's for another day) over the next few years. One thing is for sure. To once again become relevant, they have to start selling cars in significant numbers. Right now, this just isn't happening. The MKS has been out for some time now and I've seen two. The MKZ has been out for 4 months and I have yet to see one on the road. I've become fairly familiar with the service people at the L-M dealership where I bought my Zephyr. They actually have two dealerships and told me between the two, they have only sold one 2010 MKZ. This is terrible. The bland interior certainly doesn't help and the ridiculously high base price is a deal killer. I don't know what Ford was thinking pricing this car essentially the same as the Lexus and actually higher than the G37. One might arque that the MKZ has more standard equipment. But I think the masses will focus on the base price and compare that to image and the Lincoln will become forgettable.
    Ford did take my advice on one thing. Late this summer an "Executive Appearance Package" will be available for the MKZ. Among other things, it includes upgraded seating, new door trim (hopefully getting rid of that black vinyl overload) and a wood console. This will certainly help out with the interior but, you are going to have to pay for it. I'm going to get 2010 something or other and would consider an MKZ. The problem, though, is that I want a nice stereo and Nav. Since I don't like the std interior I would have to opt for the upgrade which would bring the MKZ in at about $42K! THIS IS NOT A $42,000 CAR!!! AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN!
    My advice to Ford - make the interior upgrade pkg std and offer a $2,500 rebate. The MKZ is competitive in many ways. It is not competitive in name recognition, cachet, image, perception, prestige or whatever you want to call it and unfortunately, those things are very important at that price point.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    So, Tiger, are you saying Lincoln improves their image with big rebates, higher volume with less (or no) profit, and furthering the reputation that no one would be caught dead in one unless there is a ton of cash on the hood?
  • tiger16tiger16 Member Posts: 54
    No, I'm saying rebates will help them sell cars. That's something that really isn't happening right now. If you have been paying attention, you would note that Lexus and Cadillac offered rebates this year and according to ALAKERSON, the BMW dealer offered a $3K discount. This isn't anything new and I don't think their image has been damaged. Let's start selling cars before we jack the price up so drastically.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    According to Edmunds, a loaded 2009 ES350 with luxury package, Nav, etc. has an MSRP of around $52,000, invoice around $46,000, and the "TMV" is $47,000. Based on that, it seems to me the 2010 MKZ is not far out of line from a pricing standpoint.

    There are obviously discounts to be had on an MKZ and there may be rebates at some point. Earlier this summer, local dealers were advertising 2009s for around $26,000, IIRC. However, I kind of like the idea of limiting inventory, pricing cars reasonably with minimal need for rebates, and making profit.
  • I don't disagree, but I really think any big investment in the MKZ at this point would be somewhat wasted given the factory volume limitations in Hermosillo and the popularity of the Fusion. If the Fusion continues to grow (no reason it shouldn't) and the automotive market rebounds then Ford will be close to plant capacity on just the Fusion and Milan alone.

    Yes, Allen, that is all well and good. However, it makes my point too. Well before auto sales tanked, and going back to the tail end of the era when Lincoln was doing well, they only issued concepts they had no intention of building. Now, Bill Ford may have hated Lincoln--I don't know--but the Continental, Navicross, Mark X, etc. were given no chance of production precisely at the time Lincoln really needed some new metal.

    The Zephyr/MKZ was a total afterthought (after everyone was saying, OMG we got nothin'). For the first couple years of its production, it really showed. No, Ford wouldn't need to build any MKZs, as the capacity could be used fully for Fusions and Milans. But what poor planning. With as much hurt as Cadillac is in now, where would they be if they had decided to use a bit of excess Malibu capacity to build a tarted up Chevrolet into a Cadillac?

    If Lincoln had actually invested in a dedicated mid-sizer as Cadillac did, I daresay Lincoln would have been doing significantly better than Cadillac these past 4-5 years. As long as MKZ is really not necessary to Ford's bottom line (and it is not), Lincoln will continue to suffer lower sales.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Well before auto sales tanked, and going back to the tail end of the era when Lincoln was doing well, they only issued concepts they had no intention of building.

    But what poor planning.


    Exactly. Mulally and the new regime changed all that thinking 2 years ago but as we've discussed over and over they have to fix the volume brand first before they can fix Lincoln. Ford can't survive if they don't fix the core brand so Lincoln will just have to get by on table scraps until then.

    Even so, there are a few good signs that Lincoln is headed in the right direction:

    100% unique sheetmetal for the MKS
    new interior for the MKZ (not usually done on a mid cycle refresh)
    New MKS tech features (adaptive cruise, park assist, etc.)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    No, I'm saying rebates will help them sell cars. That's something that really isn't happening right now. If you have been paying attention, you would note that Lexus and Cadillac offered rebates this year and according to ALAKERSON, the BMW dealer offered a $3K discount. This isn't anything new and I don't think their image has been damaged. Let's start selling cars before we jack the price up so drastically.

    What good does it do to jack up rebates just to get sales volume unless you're temporarily overstocked? That's what got Ford in this trouble to start with - making too many cars and putting too much money on the hood. That kills resale value. What Ford is doing now is cutting production to match demand so that they don't have to put cash on the hood.

    Putting cash on the hood is not the answer to sustainable profitability. Any extra plant capacity not used by the MKZ can be filled with Fusions and Milans which are selling quite well.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I recently (finally) saw my first MKS on the parking lot. What immediately draw my attention –“Ford store San-Leandro” slapped on the back (on the license plate) of the trunk. It was hilarious. This kind of stuff immediately devalues any Lincoln cachet in my mind and begs for big discounts to make price comparable with Ford Fusion.

    Why? Because there are no standalone Lincoln-Mercury dealerships in SF Bay area anymore. How can you imagine Silicon Valley and SF types who used to buy BMWs and Porches suddenly ecide to go to Ford dealership’s to buy presumably “luxury” car. Even though they know that Lincolns are just more expensive versions of Ford models neverless.

    Even Honda has dedicated Acura-only dealerships. But even when there were separate Lincoln-Mercury dealerships – they were in worse shape than Ford dealerships. So may be by merging with Ford dealerships Lincoln-Mercury actually went UPSCALE. I remember several years time ago shopping at Sunnyvale Lincoln-Mercury and sales consultant offered me to buy Kia (it was actually Lincoln-Mercury-Kia!). Insulted I left dealership immediately. Even My son refused to consider Huiday, let alone Kia, when we were shopping for his first new car.
  • alman08alman08 Member Posts: 282
    I didn't know the ones in Burlingame and Hilltop closed down...
  • tiger16tiger16 Member Posts: 54
    "Any extra plant capacity not used by the MKZ can be filled with Fusions and Milans which are selling quite well."

    I have a great idea. Let's stop making the MKZ altogether. That way ALL capacity can be devoted to the Fusion and Milan. You seem to be fixated on the idea that Ford isn't interested in selling any MKZs. Perhaps you are correct but, I think Ford better be interested in selling MKZs because I think that is the most important vehicle in the Lincoln lineup. They will never sell a lot of MKSs. It's a nice car but, the price point will make it a hard sell. It may be overpriced (I'm not real familiar with that market segment) but, I think the problem is that when people think of spending upwards of $50K for a car, they think "foreign." The Town Car is going away and I don't think SUVs or Crossovers represent the core segment for a luxury brand. They help but, I think the work horse for any luxury brand is still the "intro" vehicle - the ES, the CTS, the 325i, the G37, etc. This is why the MKZ is so important.

    IMO, Ford needs to sell more MKZs. There need to be more on the road. Lincoln needs to be more visible. The buying public needs to know Lincoln is still around and "desirable." No one advocates giving the MKZ away but, it has to be priced appropiately at this point in time. Again, IMO, the 2010 is significantly overpriced and is not going to sell in numbers the Lincoln brand desperately needs. I get the concept that Fusion is very important to Ford, but the MKZ is also very important to Lincoln.

    And in a long winded way this gets me to the heart of my post. I think "Kirby" and "brucelink" are missing the point of my rebate comments. Ideally, the 2010 MKZ would have been priced at $2500 or so less right out of the gate. This would have gotten more people into the showroom. No company likes to lower the price of a product midstream. It just doesn't look good. However, companies get around inappropriate (for whatever reason) pricing by the use of rebates. It's been done in the auto industry now for almost two decades, the public completely buys into the concept and the company still turns a profit. Companies that follow a policy of selling one item for $1000 profit rather than selling 10 items for $500 profit each, usually aren't in business very long. It's not about "putting cash on the hood." It's about adjusting the price to a point where the public will buy your product and you still make money. If Lexus can offer rebates surely Lincoln can. The idea is to get more MKZs on the road and viable. Once it has been accepted as a "Lexus alternative" you can raise the price gradually.

    Can anyone give a link or website so we can actually see how ALL car sales are progressing? I would be interested in knowing how the 2010 MKZ and its competitors are doing.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    For once I'm going to agree with Gregg - you can't get cachet out of a MKZ right now no matter what you do to it and where you price it. It shares too much with the Fusion. And lowering the price certainly won't help that image right now.

    Lincoln does not need "numbers" or "market presence" right now - they need profits - pure and simple.

    You want Lincoln to go after market share by pricing a competitive vehicle way below the competition. If Ford was not struggling to make a profit AND the MKZ was where Lincoln wanted it (100% unique sheetmetal, new powertrains, new Lincoln styling) AND they weren't constrained by plant capacity - then it might make sense.

    All I'm saying is they can't do it NOW - it doesn't make business sense in the current environment.
  • carjimcarjim Member Posts: 155
    My wife and I have visited two LM dealerships in Tarrant County (Fort Worth area) and both of them looked like the typical volume stores with no luxury appointments.
    How will customers who come from Lexus, Acura , etc., ever accept the downgrade in amenities? These two Lincoln stores had none of the following, but the BMW, Audi, Infiniti in the area do: snack bar, free water bottles and soft drinks, muffins (a.m.) baked on the premises, hook-up ports for computers, large comfortable chairs, Starbucks coffee machine, wide-screen monitors, etc.

    You get the idea. I imagine that both LM stores are just hanging on. There is no money to put into facilities that customers from other brands are used to. My point is that, we can talk about increasing Lincoln's cache, the value and such, but the surroundings these cars are in send a negative message. The message to first-time Lincoln shoppers is this: "Lincoln, you don't show a commitment to playing on a level I am used to."
  • bigtbigt Member Posts: 412
    At this point in the economy and auto sales I doubt there is any money for amenities. I guess LM could up their price by another 4-6k that you pay for BMW, Audi, Infiniti to have a nice place to sit. I would rather have a nice reliable car than some free water!
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I never see the dealership other than to take delivery and for warranty work so it doesn't matter to me. Unfortunately, since Ford doesn't own or have any influence over the dealerships there isn't a lot they could do about it any way except offer financial assistance - and they won't be able to do that for awhile.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    How then Volvo and Jaguar have nice dealerships. AFAIK Ford owned both and both did not bring money to Ford. So does it mean Ford actually set standards and spend money on foreign luxury brands but refuses to do the same for homegrown luxury brand? Imagine Toyota to ignore Lexus and spend all money on some aquired brand or Honda. Can you? I cannot because Toyota and Honda take pride in what they manufacture and in their brands and American companies try to outsource everything to somewhere else, preferably outside of country and interested purely in making money not product itself. Now dirty secret is that it never worked. As an example, Boeing outsources most of work on 787 and now has serious problems with quality and integration.
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