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Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,958
    Your link would not work for me but I agree that Infiniti makes some great cars !!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • m4mm4m Posts: 76
    "...M45x is not a car you see often because the crowd tends to move towards BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Audi when shopping in this segment. However, I think this car more than holds its own in this segment."

    http://www.nadaguides.com/Garage-Blog/2009-Infiniti-M45x.aspx#continue

    link has been fixed
  • And your point is? Two problems on new cars and both fixed as far as I could tell.
    With the technology and other features on today's luxury cars, there is far more room for error. Lexus dealer told me that in some LS460's they were having to replace whole engines due to problems, not to mention others they "refined".
    This is one of problems with reliability surveys, many of the worst case scenarios never get reported or surveyed.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,958
    Mercedes have always had their share of electronics problems and probably always will. That is just the way it is.

    Whole engines being replaced in the LS 460? I guess anything is possible. Do you have a link or did you just make that up? :)

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • When I see comments here quoting Consumer Reports as supporting reasons to or not to do something with respect to this class of cars, I am unmoved. Indeed, if Consumer Reports liked this or that car, I would ALMOST consider looking much more carefully at the one they didn't like.

    It is, of course, a free country and to each his or her own, but a combination of edmunds, Car and Driver and about 3 other enthusiasts magazine reviews typically would sway me more than anything Consumer Reports writes.

    Sure the manufacturer makes the car, but the dealer makes the ownership experience (at least that has worked for me for well over two dozen cars) bad, fair, good or great.

    Test drive the cars you are considering in EXACTLY the same way on the same roads, with the same tunes on the sound systems with the AC set at the same temp, etc, etc, read the passionate published reports, view the you tube videos, WHATEVER, just do like George Castanza, "the opposite" of what Consumer Reports says, and you will be a happier camper.

    :shades:
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    just do like George Castanza, "the opposite" of what Consumer Reports says, and you will be a happier camper.

    CR's recommendations for similar cars in mainstream categories are pretty accurate. For example, the highest rated family sedans are the Altima, Accord, and Legacy, which is a reasonable assessment. The two worst rated in that class are the Sebring and Avenger, and buying one of those two because CR hates them is a very bad idea.

    The trouble starts in categories like luxury sedans, where they are comparing totally different cars in different size and price classes, and they begin to lose all credibility. The Acura RL is a better car than the A6, 5 series, and A8? Really CR?

    The "sporty cars" section has similar problems, like having a Scion tC in the same section as a BMW 135i.

    I also find it rather offensive that paid subscribers are expected to pay again for "premium" access to things like pricing guides and full track test data. Wow, you sure can't get that anywhere else!
  • I wish there was someway to determine the ROI of the RL since it's inception. To me, it seems like money thrown down the crapper based on sales figures here in the US. I can't believe it does much better in other markets, like the A6 being solid around the world if not here, but I could be wrong.
  • jimsxnjimsxn Posts: 108
    What to look for/be careful about? I come from a generation of owning Japanese cars - the only American car I owned, gave me no end of trouble. I am attracted to Volvo for ride comfort, ease of entry and exit, space (family of four) and a dash of driving fun. Too much to ask? Why do people buy a Volvo nowadays when all cars are equally safe? Is there a better choice for about the same chunk of change?
    Thanks all. Also, I would not mind somebody trying to knock some sense into me.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I wish there was someway to determine the ROI of the RL since it's inception. To me, it seems like money thrown down the crapper based on sales figures here in the US. I can't believe it does much better in other markets, like the A6 being solid around the world if not here, but I could be wrong.

    Good question. It's sold as the Honda Legend in Japan and Australia, but I'm not sure where else. I don't think Honda sells anything above the Accord Euro in Europe. I can't imagine that Australian and Japanese sales account for much, especially considering Japan's terrible domestic auto market these days.

    If I were a long time Acura dealer I wouldn't be very pleased with HQ these days. They took away the Legend and replaced it with a barge that has never sold. They turned the ugly knob up to 11, and just after many dealers completed significant and expensive upgrades to their stores in preparation for the brand's "tier 1" upmarket push, Acura decided that because of the economy they're going to completely abandon that idea, and scrap everything they were working on. Maybe there will be a new RSX for 2013. There's something.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I am attracted to Volvo for ride comfort, ease of entry and exit, space (family of four) and a dash of driving fun. Too much to ask? Why do people buy a Volvo nowadays when all cars are equally safe? Is there a better choice for about the same chunk of change?

    The previous generation S80 was never more than a middling car. The seats are OK, but not nearly as comfortable as some Volvos past. Rear legroom and trunk space are average for a mid-size car. The 2.5T is reasonably quick in the S60, but it's weighed down by the S80 and is on the sluggish side. I suppose it depends on what you would consider a "dash" but the S80 was about as fun to drive as an Avalon or Hyundai Azera. Brutal depreciation makes them affordable, but service bills will be just as high as a BMW or Mercedes shop.

    I wouldn't say that "all" cars are equally safe, but a Volvo is no safer than an Audi, Honda, Subaru, etc. I'm not sure why people buy them. Other than their safety rep which is largely irrelevant these days, Volvo doesn't specialize or excel at anything. Their powertrains are always a generation behind the real luxury players, and their electronics are stuck in the stone age.

    As an alternative to the Volvo, I would suggest looking at '08 Accords. They have similar space, and are more involving to drive. The Accord is also something you could keep for a long time, whereas high mileage Volvos tend to become maintenance hogs.
  • jlbljlbl Posts: 1,333
    "It's sold as the Honda Legend in Japan and Australia, but I'm not sure where else. I don't think Honda sells anything above the Accord Euro in Europe."

    In addition to the Accord, the Legend is sold over here too.

    Regards,
    Jose
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,958
    The trouble starts in categories like luxury sedans, where they are comparing totally different cars in different size and price classes, and they begin to lose all credibility.

    Forbes just named the the Jaguar XF as one of the top ten clunkers to avoid. Part of their "research" came from CR. The Mercedes GL 450 also made the list.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Forbes just named the the Jaguar XF as one of the top ten clunkers to avoid. Part of their "research" came from CR. The Mercedes GL 450 also made the list.

    I struggle to think of worse automotive "journalism" than the stuff from Forbes. Their articles are entirely meaningless. Just words on paper. About as bad as Jean Jennings.
  • We have just eaten $5000 replacing the transmission on our S-80. We have had Volvo's all our lives and this is a first. It's a 2004 and we contacted Volvo of America, but they would only give limited assistance. Something isn't right here. We have never experienced this problem through the years. You would think that since we go religiously for service that a company such as this would have been more helpful. Sadly, I am no longer impressed with these cars - the track record is out the window.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,550
    What miles?
    [ Edit:
    And what model \ motor ? ]
    Assuming that you are out of MFR warranty period,
    4 years \ 50,000 miles,
    - just curious - what exactly did you expect from Volvo?
    - Ray
    Drove several Volvos many miles - back to a PV544 in College..
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,527
    In case you haven't already read, the T6 uses a GM transmission and is prone to failures. I would dump the car ASAP.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,550
    "I would dump the car ASAP. "
    Well - just having put $5K into a car worth something
    like $10-$12K -
    and having replaced the trouble-prone component,
    I'm not sure that is the most prudent course...
    - Ray
    Out $5K, I think I'd keep it and hope to
    amass a few more $$s before changing cars...
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 17,527
    well, ok, I was overstating it a bit. Yes, with a new trans, I would hold it for a while, but not TOO long.

    Oh, and its only worth maybe $8k on a trade. I wouldn't have spent $5k on it in the first place. But that's me.

    '13 Stang GT; '15 Fit; '98 Volvo S70; '14 Town&Country

  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,550
    "Member Since: November 18, 2009 "
    And only this one post.
    Oh, well....
    My point here was only that the mfr wty is
    [ whatever it is ]
    and I would NOT expect the mfr to pay for
    the full cost of any major repair past the terms.
    Else why set terms?
    Just my 0.2 gallons worth...
    - Ray
    Personally, would not have a Volvo
    [ or any other car ]
    past the mfr mty....
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    On the Nissan home site, they posted a press release on the new Fuga, which will be the new 2010 Infiniti M when it hits the US in March. While there have been pictures floating around, these show the (Japanese) production car and discusses some of the new stuff available in the car. The (real) silver powder used in the finish of the wood give it an elegant look. They use active noise-cancelling technology to quiet the cabin. One speaker in each door panel and one on the rear deck. It's incorporated with the Bose stereo. That's one thing I really don't like on my 2006 M, the sound level is still annoying on a long (boring) trip on the interstate after spending about $1k on adding noise mats (Dynamat) to the whole thing except for the roof. Anyway, you can read it yourself at http://press.nissan-global.com/EN/CORPORATE/report2009.html#091119
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,766
    Personally, would not have a Volvo
    [ or any other car ]
    past the mfr mty....


    Cool! You can prop up the economy and the automakers, and I can get a well-depreciated luxury sedan for less money and get 100K miles out of it. :shades:
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,550
    "Cool! You can prop up the economy and the automakers, and I can get a well-depreciated luxury sedan for less money and get 100K miles out of it."

    I live to serve...
    - Ray
    Doing my part to 'prop up the economy'.
    With [ extended ] mfr wty to past where I will likely sell or trade...
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Agreed. So many people don't understand that post-warranty repairs generally cost less than new car depreciation.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    True enough, jim, but that new car depreciation is amortized over the term of the loan, and you don't feel the sting unless you want out too soon. Whereas, a [major] repair bill is the equivalent of being hit in the face w/ a 1x6 plank when you aren't looking! :surprise:
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Whereas, a [major] repair bill is the equivalent of being hit in the face w/ a 1x6 plank when you aren't looking!

    And that's why I maintain a sizeable emergency fund - so that I can cover big bills without breaking a sweat.

    I know that putting aside money from today's paycheck so that you can deal comfortably with tomorrow's unpleasant surprises is so, I dunno, prehistoric, but I am old & set in my ways.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,766
    True enough, jim, but that new car depreciation is amortized over the term of the loan...

    Who said anything about loans?

    Pay cash and save those payments and that interest, and you have enough for your next car in a few years.
  • jimbresjimbres Posts: 2,025
    Strongly agree. We haven't financed any of our cars since the late 80s.

    I also think that cash buyers (1) keep their cars longer, (2) spend more time researching their purchases & (3) are less likely to buy impulsively. That's been our experience, at any rate.

    One more thing: Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    Well, it's not like paying cash for a car makes it immune to depreciation and repair bills.
  • Mark..... How is it going with your A4 premium sedan? Your best Audi yet out of maybe 10 you have leased/owned in the past?
  • My 2009 A4 Prestige with Audi Drive Select, 19" sport package, almond wood trim, navigation+rear camera and power rear sunshade is either "about the same" as the outgoing A6 or, for the detail minded, a substantial upgrade in several key areas.

    First off, the B8 A4 has a 110+" wheelbase -- very very close to the C6 A6. The C6 is a bit wider and from front to rear is longer -- but the 6+" wheelbase stretch made the essentially unchanged C6 A6 (unchanged from 2004) less interesting.

    The B8 is RWD biased AWD and due to its configuration, now, has better F/R weight balance than the C6. The B8 is lighter, too. To me, the RWD bias is, frankly, more academic than anything else, but I do understand the possible advantages of the RWD bias over the C6's 50 50 split.

    The biggest plusses for the B8 (at least as I have it configured) are the previously noted F/R balance and RWD bias coupled with the 19" sport suspension option (which means the tires are 19" and 35 series) and sport seats and sport steering wheel (with paddle shifters). The icing on the cake is the Audi Drive Select option which essentially gives you 27 different "individual" tuning points for the engine/transmission, suspension compliance or cushy-ness and dynamic steering settings.

    Equipped in Prestige trim, the B8 is essentially, sitting behind the wheel, about 97% C6 in terms of everything you can see and touch, press, turn or activate. The -3% is that the C6 is a tiny bit wider and has sexy led interior lighting built in at approximately the upper third of the four doors. The C6 also had front AND rear heated seats, whereas the B8 only warms the fronts.

    The B&O sound system is a huge improvement over the C6 Bose unit.

    The sport seats, too, are an improvement over the A6's comfort seats.

    The blind spot warning system is a must have and the single pushbutton for start and stop engine is an improvment.

    The 258 pound feet of torque from sub 2K rpm with the upgraded 6 speed tiptronic make me only long for ONE thing from the 3.2 A6 -- the sweet engine sounds at full cry (the A4 is simply OK in this respect).

    Overall, I believe the 2009 A4 is as deserving of the "luxury" label as was the 2005 A6; but, time marches on and I assume the A4 remains firmly in what, today, passes for near-luxury sporty sedan. However, the A4 is far more capable in terms of its ability to carve around corners and, with the ADS dynamic mode engaged, far more confidence inspiring in any kind of spirited driving.

    In comfort mode the A4 seems comparable to the A6 in terms of "being, er, comfortable," but 35 series tires are a bit less forgiving than the C6's 40 series 18 inchers, so you do tend to "feel" the road more with the A4 (for me, that's a good thing.)

    I did not get premium paint, so I did save hundreds of dollars over my C6's pricey $775 paint job -- but still, my A4 with the optional exhaust tips and the now optional Audi Assurance (all maint is free for 50K miles) came in at $49K and change. My outgoing A6 was $53,286 by comparison -- frankly the A6 seemed more of a "bargain" if any car that is north of $45K can be so designated. The lease payments are about the same and I did get a 50K lease (the C6 was a 45K lease.)

    The mildly facelifted C6 with the supercharged engine would certainly be a car that I would not kick out of bed for eating crackers, but its price has swelled so much that one equipped as close as possible to my 2005 A6 would have been about $6,000 more. Given that I rarely have passengers, the A4 somehow seemed,er, an environmentally astute choice. Well, if you say it fast enough and emphasize the 4 cylinder engine that uses FSI and turbo charging, it could well be, uh, "astute."

    Anyway, the B8 for 2009 did NOT come with the 3G MMI which means I had ZERO learning curve, but it also means I did not get the hard drive, the new graphics and the other improvments that time and next gen technologies typically provide.

    I've had the A4 about 15 months, it has 25K miles on it and save for replacing the stock summer only tires with UHP A/S at 7,000 miles, it has had no issues other than normal maint. It is quick, fast, fun and, as my wife is wont to say, "goes like a snake in a rat hole."

    With the current economic realities, despite having had over 2 dozen of these wonderful cars, I only have one negative comment, and that is, "I am beginning to question the VALUE of virtually ANY European car, and that, unfortunately, includes this one. Man, they are GIVING AWAY Cadillac AWD FE2 suspension equipped CTS's.
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