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My choices....The BMW 530, Jaguar XF premium, Cadillac CTS, Mercedes E350 (maybe diesel) or a 2011 M35. My wife has eliminated the Audi. The local Lexus dealer just doesn't deal so I eliminated them and I consider the 350 overpriced....and poor resale on GS350's. After 2 M35's, I'm ready for a change even though it will be the least expensive choice due to loyalty dollars and dealer pricing.
The BMW is low on the list due to, of all things, the fixed seatbelt anchors on the door posts which make it undriveable by my 5' tall wife. The CTS has very short seat bottoms so they lack support of my legs. The Mercedes has less than a stellar service track record and everyone seems to have them around here....so I'm seriously considering a Jaguar XF( probably a premium).
This doesn't seem to be a popular choice...I see few XF's on the road. Am I making a mistake? What am I missing.
I should mention that the car will be used in southwest florida where there are no winding roads or hills.
PRESS RELEASE 2011 Infiniti M Sedan
The 2011 Infiniti M will be offered in M37 and M56 model designations when it goes on sale at Infiniti retailers nationwide in spring 2010. The M37 features a refined 3.7-liter V6 engine with increased power and fuel economy (versus the previous generation M35’s 3.5-liter V6).
The M56 also offers more power and better fuel economy from an all-new 5.6-liter V8 (versus the previous generation M45’s 4.5-liter V8). Both the M37 and M56 engines feature Infiniti’s advanced VVEL (Variable Valve Event & Lift) system and all models are equipped with a standard 7-speed automatic transmission.
The M56 engine also utilizes Direct Injection Gasoline™ (DIG) technology. The M37 and M56 are available in both rear-wheel drive and with Infiniti’s Intelligent All-Wheel Drive system.
A special Sport Package, offered on rear-wheel drive models only, offers 4-wheel Active Steer (4WAS), sport-tuned suspension, Sport Brakes and 20-inch wheels and tires.
As for the car’s size, it is larger than the outgoing M, measuring roughly half an inch longer at 194.7 inches, 2-inches wider at 72.6 inches.
In addition to that, the M is rated near the top by Consumer Reports, second only to the Lexus LS. The 350 is waaay down the list. Very poor reliability compared to the M. CR puts them both in the same class (luxury sedans).
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
E350 = 51K with P1, leather
M = 41K with tech package
so E is 10K more that is ~ 25% more than M's price of 41K
With M you get engine with more oomph (303 hp vs 268 hp)
Better reliability......drawback you will not have service advisors's number on speed dial
Infact E350 finished last in car and driver 5 car comparision (A6, 5 series, M, Jag XF, and MB E class)..and in the comparision test 5 series and M were OLD MODELS - both are getting revamped this year
I think for 50K plus car those should be standard.
However just like someone said on another forum: "I wouldn't switch MB or BMW to Lexus or Infiniti. They are totally different animals in automobile world. If you like to drive the car - you get MB or BMW, if you like options and gadgets - you get Lexus or Infiniti."
It is a compromise, to give up something in order to get something else - choices, choices...
I don't agree with that at all. German /= automatic great drive, and Japanese /= automatic tech wonderland. Most of the recent Mercedes cars like the C and E classes have been described as dull and boring, with dead steering and lifeless handling. Good for cruising down the highway and that's it.
The latest Audi S models are reaching par with BMW in terms of driving enjoyment, and their options and gadgets are better than anything Lexus or Infiniti have. The Infinitis I've driven have been very enjoyable. Certainly a G37 is a lot more fun than a C350, so that throws out that argument. Infiniti's current tech is getting pretty stale, but it looks like the M37 has a somewhat updated system.
Lexus has absolutely nothing technology wise which can compare to the state of the art systems in the new A8. Several of their cars still come with cassette decks!
Getting back to the original question of what to replace an '08 M35 with, the XF is a decent choice, but a serious reliability risk. I'm less impressed with the car than I was back when I bought my S6. The new leaders in this class are likely to be the new 5 series and the new M, with the new A6 likely joining this group next year. The E class is already an also ran.
Japanese /= automatic tech wonderland But when u compared it to the Audi, you're saying Lexus has absolutely nothing technology wise which can compare to the state of the art systems in the new A8. Several of their cars still come with cassette decks :surprise: I would personally like the lexus to keep the cassette deck in the near future as well.
Here are my thoughts:
If you like driving you you get BMW, Audi S line, or Infiniti M (Depending on price point)
If you want to show off you get MB or BMW or Jag....may be Lexus or Audi..infiniti is not up there yet & Acura is just wannabe
If you want nice E350/lexus type driving experirnce and are not badge conscious you get Genesis at whole lot less price.
Sanjay
Probably the euro spec CGI engines finally making their way to these shores. Still, a few more horses are not going to turn the E class into a fun car. Winding Road recently described the E350 coupe as barely better to drive than a Camry.
The new 535i is better looking than the E, has a much nicer interior than the E, and at least the initial opinions say its as good to drive as ever. I just don't see any reason to buy an E class.
My point was that the idea that Infiniti and Lexus are the leaders in gadgets and technology is incorrect. Infiniti's systems haven't really changed since 2006, and the Lexus LS460 is using rather old and outdated NAV and tech systems as well.
The tech leader at this point is Audi. There is no car currently in production that can match the technology packed into the A8.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
And that makes me nervous, because high-end electronics aren't a traditional strong suit of German industry, the way machinery & chemicals are.
I still wouldn't consider buying any German car with factory NAV. Then again, there's no reason to take the chance, when I can pick up an after market unit that's as good (if not better) for a fraction of the cost.
As I have been doing research tonight, I continue to find the biggest complaints against the German cars being reliability and the high cost of repairs. Honestly, after reading the articles and reviews, I am reconsidering "moving up" and thinking about buying a newer Accord or just moving into the Acura class.
A couple of questions -
+ Are the repair costs significantly higher with a German car vs Japanese? I have no baseline on my Accord since I have not had to do any repairs.
+ Is the reliability that much worse for the German cars?
I don't think the cost of parts and labor are really all that much if any higher at a BMW or Mercedes dealer than they are at Acura or Lexus. The chance is quite a bit higher though that you will be seeing the service department more often, especially on German cars that are 6 years old or more. If you are planning on getting another 150K miles out of your new car, it would be wise to budget at least $2000 for maintenance and possible repairs, and $3-4K if you want to be on the safe side.
You also have to be absolutely meticulous choosing your car. A fully documented and 100% spotless service history is a must. If the dealer can't provide that, walk away. If that's not something you can manage, you should probably stay away from ze Germans. Certified Pre-Owned programs are definitely a good idea, though you'll need to look for a car newer than '04 to get much benefit, and will need to spend more than $17K.
If you want to keep things around $17K, you might want to consider the previous generation Lexus GS430 if you can manage to locate one. Unlike the Honda/Acura products all of the interior trim materials are real, the engine has plenty of power and torque, and that car was incredibly well built and incredibly reliable. It's not as good to drive as an A6 2.7T or 540i Sport, but 150K miles should be absolutely no sweat for it. The handling can be much improved with new springs and sway bars.
The interior can't match the flowing style of the previous generation E or A6, but with tan leather at least I think it's much more luxurious than a previous gen Accord, and a lot more classic and less chintzy looking than the previous TL. An '03 or '04 example with low miles should go for around $15K or so.
Another option is an '05 or '06 Infiniti G35, which go for around $18K. The interior wasn't great, but they are almost as good to drive as a 3 series sport, and are very reliable cars, just watch out for ones with brake wear issues.
If you can go a bit above $20K, the '07 Infiniti G35 and '06 M35 are great choices.
If you are thinking of something newer, I find the Hyundai Genesis to be an extremely interesting vehicle. Good luck.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Yes, an Acura will probably prove just as reliable ... but, frankly, just as boring, too.
Lexus GS was a good suggestion. Yeah, still boring, but at least RWD and pretty powerful. And definitely luxo.
Infiniti is also a good suggestion.
Avoid Audi.
Personally, I think bimmer is fine. Granted, I don't have alot of experience with newer ones, but my '87 with 120k miles is holding up great and repairs have been very inexpensive.
Another suggestion I'd like to make is Volvo. An S60 2.5T is a pretty nice ride and pretty reliable ... not to mention inexpensive used.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
That's another good one. The early S60s had teething problems and lifeless steering, but most of the problems were corrected by '04, which is also the year that Volvo changed the steering and added some decent weighting and feel. The '05's got a fairly significant interior upgrade, so that's probably where I would start.
The 2.5T AWD is probably the best choice, as most S60s don't have stability control. The rare T5 has all of the extra power at the top of the rev range and isn't really any faster. Avoid the S60R. The automatic version had its torque hugely reduced because the transmission couldn't handle the strain, so its nowhere near as fast as the horsepower would suggest, and its nowhere near as fun as the "R" would imply. If fun is a high priority, the G35 will smoke it. The S60R's active suspension is also just asking for a huge repair bill.
Yeah, the adjustable suspension is just one more thing to break ... but man is it fun!
BUT, all in all, I have to vote for the 2.5T FWD. The haldex AWD presents a common and expensive problem in failure of the angle gear.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Interesting, I didn't know that Volvo upgraded the automatic for '06. Apparently they also upgraded the AWD system so that it actually sends some power to the rear wheels some of the time, though its still no Quattro or even ATTESSA-ETS. With the unrestrained engine it's competitive with the old G35, M35, A6 2.7T and faster than an E320, but would still lose a drag race to the GS430 or a 540i.
For whatever reason, Volvos are always slower than their horsepower and torque numbers would suggest. This continues right up to the current XC60 and S80.
The nice thing about the S60R is that most of them were ordered with the Dolby PL-II stereo, which is as rare in the rest of the S60 range as a Siberian tiger. The standard 100 watt, single disc setup kind of stinks, and isn't really befitting a luxury car. The downside is a truly mammoth turning circle, some 41 feet if I remember correctly.
I know what you mean, and it is interesting, but it can vary dramatically. For example, with my '98 T5 auto, I once managed a 6.1s 0-60 (according to my OBD scanner/dyno ... and with liberal brake-torquing). While not an unheard of time on the enthusiast boards, it is faster than any published time. Turbo/auto combos seem very inconsistent in any case. That was a full sec off the time I would get with no brake-torquing.
The manual Rs could dip down right around the mid 5s range, I believe. I would consider that about right given the weight and AWD. Again, though, I think published numbers were not so quick, IIRC.
I'm not sure which stereo is in my '01. I know it is the middle model of the 3 offered, but not sure what that means. It is OK. Still one of the better stock systems I've ever had, but I'm not as impressed with it as the system in my '98 ... which doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe it is the effect of it being a wagon.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
29 Audis, 3 BMW's at last count (between my wife and me).
I keep thinking, Infiniti is the Japanese BMW.
Well, we all know what Watty Piper writes. . . .
One thing you can do is check out the service for the first 100,000 miles and then call dealer to see what they will charge. Parts are probably going to cost much more down the road on European than on Japanese.
Japanese cars are very much cheaper to maintain. But if you go to "luxury" brands, you will pay for the fancy showrooms, waiting rooms, special treatment and so forth. Acura probably costs lot less than Lexus.
The Lexus GS is not well recommended by many, so you might want to research it throughly on several sites and drive it for a good long test.
The LS430 is a a top rated car in luxury and reliability, but they do not come cheap. I know because I looked at several.
Good luck.
Let me take, for instance, my volvo vs my mazda vs my nissan. All get 4k-mile oil changes. OK, in this instance, the volvo is a tad pricier because it uses 7 qts of oil vs the 5 in each of the other 2 vehicles. All have timing belts. All have brakes pads, struts, tires, etc, etc. All those things, for the most part, wear out at similar intervals and all cost the same across all vehicles. So what am I missing concerning this "more expensive maintenance"?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
The Lexus rate per hour was $ 220, while the Acura rate was $ 110. And since I know very little today about working on cars, I took that rate per hour into consideration. I am one of the 50s generation and I used to work on Chev but not now.
Good luck to all and stay safe.
jensad
Wow! I'm not sure what dealer that was, but there are some real crooks running it. $220 an hour for a Lexus is just insane pricing. The highest I've ever seen at an Audi dealer is $160, and I pay a lot less than that.
Good luck to all and stay safe.
jensad
I would definitely suggest that you wait for the C7 car. While I'm sure the 3.0T engine will just carry over, the rest of the car is going to be significantly improved. The new platform means better weight distribution, and with Drive Select and the S4's rear diff, handling should be much better. Audi also really has to deliver on the interior if they want to keep up with the 5 and M.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
For the first time in 20 years, I had a stranger come up to me and tell me she thought my car is "the most beautiful car I have ever seen." Agree with her 100%.
The 2010 E class is far better looking than the 535, exterior and interior and nicer too IMO. Of course, both of these are a matter of personal taste.
In reality the E Class and BMW 5 series are different types of cars so it is really hard to compare them. Of course, the new 5 is supposed to be nicer and more comfortable than the current model.
Of course, a thorough inspection may also enable the dealer to sell more parts and services. Got a cheap oil change deal on my Ford pick-up at a Ford dealer and they came back with a list of recommended services for about $600. Didn't get any of them and that was two years ago.
However, it is still very expensive compared to the non-prestige makes, but that is part of what you are paying for. Somebody has to pay for the free loaner cars, the very nice waiting areas, and all the kid glove treatment. Also, many of the prestige dealers only sell the one make, so they have no large volume of other cars to cushion their costs. That is one reason why Hyundai has not spun off the Genesis and Equus as a separate brand.
BTW, S.C. no longer requires auto inspections to renew licenses-and you can tell by the number of cars with one or no brake lights or only one headlight.
Styling is of course a matter of personal taste. I just don't like the blocky, '80s look that Mercedes is going with lately. I had a Mercedes in the '80s, and I don't need a new '80s Mercedes. I also don't like the column shift, or that Mercedes thinks the clock is as important as the rev counter.
When the current 5 made its debut in '04, I didn't like the exterior or interior styling at all. Eventually I got used to the styling, and at this point I think the V8 model with the deeper front air dam isn't too bad, at least from the front. I still don't like the rest of it. When BMW refreshed the 5 a couple of years ago they made significant improvements to the interior, making it about equal with the current A6 IMO.
The 2011 5 appears to be significantly improved in most areas. The styling is a bit anonymous, but its not off putting. The interior has the same look that started with the X5, and I think it's just better than the E-class in every way. The C7 A6 is still a question mark, but IMO the 2011 M and 2011 5 are the current interior leaders in the mid luxury segment.
Full size interior photo
In terms of technology, the Benz is far superior in every way, from Navigation to voice activation, to the BMW. In terms of cost, the Benz is 4000 dollars less than a comparably equipped BMW 535i. My car listed for 54,850, while the 535i was over 60,000 dollars. I had to add rear sunshade, Logic 7 sound system, HD radio, Navigation, sport package, etc., all of which my Benz had.
The major problems I had with the BMW were the turbos on both cars and "high battery drain" whenever it rained, and this was on both cars as well. BMW can keep their 5 series, I'll take the MB over any of them.
2021 Genesis G90
I too am now looking for a mid size car and I am leaning towards
Infiniti M...will wait till 2011 debut to make decision.
If I were to buy a "non sporty" model then I would have tough time in justifying buying E350 over Genesis.
In any event there seems to be some contradiction in your posts in two boards. I thought you traded E-class for a newer E-class
May be I misread in that case my apologies
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.eea6b46/580
Believe it or not, I test drove the Genesis about 2 months ago. Although it was responsive, etc., I found it to be "tinny" compared with German Cars. I found the technology to be acceptable, however I strongly urge you to Test Drive an E350 with sport package and Premium 1 package. I think you'll find the ride sporty, yet confident, which I did not find in the Genesis. Also, with Mercedes Benz Dealers almost giving these away (I got mine for 5500 under sticker, or 2000 under invoice, you will find the Benz will hold its value longer. The only drawback on Mercedes is the cost of maintaining it. It costs 300 dollars once each year for oil change (they only recommend once a year or 10K miles), but the cost of brake replacement, etc., about 900 to 1000, which must be done once every 20,000 miles, from my experiences.
Whatever you choose, good luck.
2021 Genesis G90
2021 Genesis G90
... and no HPFP failure[s] ?
Interesting...
- Ray
Looking at BMWs with turbos...