Luxury Performance Sedans

michael0137 · July 2012

I am Michael's wife posting under his account - so don't anyone get confused when I said "my husband"! :P It was a bit juvenile, but hey it was a recently new Dodge HEMI V8 - 0-60 in 6.8 according to road tests.

As for the BMW?? I don't care WHAT they do to the engine with turbo charging - it is a 4 banger. Acura has been constantly criticized for having a V6 versus a V8 - standard - and now BMW has a twin turbocharged 4??? Why aren't they being destroyed in the press? Advertising $$$$$$$ - that's why.

qbrozen · July 2012

As for the BMW?? I don't care WHAT they do to the engine with turbo charging - it is a 4 banger. Acura has been constantly criticized for having a V6 versus a V8 - standard - and now BMW has a twin turbocharged 4??? Why aren't they being destroyed in the press? Advertising $$$$$$$ - that's why.

That's not completely true. Acura has been criticized for not having a V8 as an option. All the competitors had 6-cyls in the base models, so that was never a criticism toward Acura.

In other words, the competitors had optional models that were significantly faster than the Acura. So someone wanting more power had to look elsewhere. It has definitely cost them those sales.

houdini1 · July 2012

Does BMW have 6-cyl options for the 3 and 5 series? I have just never liked 4 cyl engines, turbo or not, especially in upscale cars. Just too harsh and rough at idle and at start up.

Love the BMW 6 cyl. I think BMW is making a mistake. Also interesting to note that Acura is doing the opposite in their RDX by going from a turbo 4 to a 6 cyl.

Maybe BMW is trying to meet mpg goals?

ghstudio · July 2012

You might want to test drive a lotus....makes you think about 4 cylinder cars a bit differently

qbrozen · July 2012

Maybe BMW is trying to meet mpg goals?

Oh, absolutely. That's why everyone is scaling down and adding turbos.

Interestingly, I don't find my twin-turbo BMW I6 to be any smoother than my VW 2.0T was.

james27 · July 2012

Certainly...BMW makes both 6 and 8-cylinder versions of the 5-series, as well as the 3 and 7 series. So, you get to determine the amount of power you want available. But, with the turbocharger making so much torque at low RPM's (and it is torque that gets you moving), it makes most of the other engines look like porkers off the line. The BMW make max torque at around 1200rpm. Do you know where the Acura needs to turn to achieve its max torque? That's what allows it to go up a hill without downshifting, not Hp. That's what allows it to accellerate at low rpm, not Hp. And, with all that torque, it can cruise at really low rpm, saving fuel and lowering noise. How fast is your engine turning at 80mph? The BMW (6) turns less than 2K. That saves wear and tear and makes for a much more comfortable cruise.

rayainsw · July 2012

'now BMW has a twin turbocharged 4??? '
Actually the new BMW 4 has a single 'twin-scroll' turbo charger.
'At 240 bhp, the 528is 2.0-liter inline-4 with a twin-scroll turbo'
- from R&T
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/drives/2012-bmw-528i
- Ray
Odd wording....

houdini1 · July 2012

How about the non turbo in-line 6? Has it gone away?

james27 · July 2012

I think so, but not sure (at least in the USA). The EPA rules require some significant fleet fuel economy increases, and smaller is better. But to retain the same power, turbochargers are being added. The new 4 has more power AND torque than the I-6 it replaces and gets significantly better mileage. Things will continue to get tighter and tighter, and you'll see more tweaks to improve economy whether we like it or not.

Many of the engines have what they call twin-scroll turbo, but it is just one turbo (while some models do have multiple actual turbochargers). There's a valve that adjusts to bring the turbo up to speed quicker so it can add power at much lower engine rpm than a typical single unit. This is less complicated than using multiple real turbos where often, one was smaller to get up to speed quicker, but the other one was larger to provide max boost at higher engine speeds. The timing on that type is messier, and you can have a hole in the middle of the power band. Things are much more linear with the twin-scroll design.

txsco · July 2012

If this needs to be a separate thread, just let me know. Currently own a 2011 MB E350; I like the car very much, but would like to have a bit more power. Have a chance to purchase a 2011 E63; I've read everyting I can on this vehicle, taken a test drive, etc, but was seeking some advice from owners. It's a lot more money-is it worth it? I really liked the car, but any and all advice is appreciated.

graphicguy · July 2012

Frankly....like any car, it's worth it if you believe it is. It's your money.....your choice. Good luck!

txsco · July 2012

Good point; I guess I should have been more specific. Does anyone have any short or long term experience owning/driving an E63? I'm leaning toward buying the car-would like the power-but am given pause-ok, only a bit-as I haven't owned a RWD car in 25 years.
So what's the driving experience like?
Thanks.

mad_chicken · March 2013

Was researching 2011 2012 5 series. Read a lot about the transmission problems in the 2011 model. Has anyone had any problems with the 2012 model? Also, if the car learns how the driver drives and the transmission adjusts for it, how does it work out when buying a used car? Thanks in advance for any help.

mad_chicken · March 2013

Was told by a mechanic before that the maintenance cost of MB is noticebly greater than that of BMW. Would like opinions and experiences. Thanks much.

graphicguy · March 2013

Which mechanic told you that? Maintenance is higher with both BMW and Benz, when compared to a Ford, for example.

Might want to look here to get an idea of the cost to own one over the other....

http://www.edmunds.com/tco.html

Kirstie_H · March 2013

Well, this might be true if you were buying new, as BMW includes the first two years of maintenance - so your first two years of true maintenance cost on the BMW would be $0. If you look at following years 3-5, there's not an appreciable difference in maintenance costs.

Repair costs? Not sure about that one, but fluids and wear & tear items don't seem to be vastly different.

graphicguy · March 2013

kirstie...just from my small sample size and experience, aside from free maintenance on BMW, oil changes at the dealer ran about $70/ea. Why? Well, for one, BMWs (as well as Mercedes) require the use of synthetic oil. Other, more traditional cars still use "regular" (and cheaper) oil. That said, the extra costs for oil changes might be offset by the longer recommended oil change intervals.

But, you're right. During the "free" maintenance period for BMW, you really pay nothing except for tires. That should be tallied as part of the cost of owning any of these brands, too.

qbrozen · March 2013

oil changes at the dealer ran about $70/ea.

Damn, that's cheap. Even when I called to ask what they would charge for our E30, I was told $100. I haven't even bothered to ask what they would want to do my 135i. It costs me about $85 just to buy the oil and filter from the store.

Kirstie_H · March 2013

Yeah, even our Crossfire has about a $100 oil change.

If a consumer is looking to buy a used vehicle with relatively low maintenance costs, neither BMW nor MB is likely to be a great choice. Buying any luxury marque generally involves higher maintenance and consumable costs (e.g., tires), as you know.

Related to the original question, my point was that the BMW 2-year free maintenance will not be a factor since the vehicles being considered are 2-3 years old. And, for vehicles in that price range, I don't consider a couple hundred bucks per year in maintenance difference to be a significant amount - at least not enough to sway me toward one vehicle over the other.

graphicguy · March 2013

kirstie....Q....I must be WAAAAAY BEHIND THE TIMES. I thought $70 for an oil change was about 2x-3X what it should be.

I know I got coupons from my BMW dealer stating how they're oil changes, brakes, tires, batteries, tune-ups etc were competitively priced. I guess they were right.

Then again, I haven't been to an outside mechanic (other than the dealer) for service in quite some time.

mad_chicken · March 2013

What I am starting to hear from people is that since the free maintenance portion will be over, BMW will have smaller problems more frequently and the MB will have fewer problems, but will cost somewhat more when it does. So in the end, it kinda evens out. Of course this is all in general trends.

james27 · March 2013

Most European cars, the Germans in particular, treat their cars much better than the average American does. They believe in pre-emptive maintenance which means they check, service, replace things such that the vehicle retains its high performance capabilities almost as if it were new for as long as you own the vehicle. If you subscribe to that, because it does take a fair amount of time and you may be replacing things before they break, it can get costly. Some of the checks you can do yourself if you're handy, but this may not then reflect on the vehicle maintenance history, so you may end up paying more by a lower resale value. Having a full history of factory trained maintenance can make a difference when it comes time to sell the thing, not counting the fact it is likely to be in better shape. Having never owned a MB, I can't say whether it is more expensive than a BMW, and mine is still fairly new and still under factory warranty (it's also my first BMW), so I can't compare them. I do know that parts costs, should you not be covered under warranty, are quite high. Labor rates, depends somewhat on where you live, but the quantity of hours is often up there as well.

Kirstie_H · March 2013

Well, $70 would be way excessive for my Ford Escape, but the oil alone for the Crossfire is the majority of the cost. Plus, of course, with "non-standard" vehicles, the filter is likely to be higher.

graphicguy · March 2013

Kirstie.....didn't kow you had a Crossfire. I was really intrerested in those when they first came out. Then MB sold the company to Cerebus and Chrysler quit making them.

Sweet car!

Kirstie_H · March 2013

The car belongs to my S.O., and slightly pre-dates me. It's not exactly what I would have chosen, but I will say it's given us zero trouble and it's fun to drive when it's just the two of us. Next 2-seater will be a convertible for sure.

graphicguy · March 2013

Kirstie....I know my opinion carries no clout, but may I offer a suggestion?

I'm really diggin' on this.....

http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/trim/shelbygt500convertible/

Kirstie_H · March 2013

Very, very nice!

The vehicle selection will depend on who's doing the buying. If I trade in first for a convertible, it will probably be something cute - the Audi TT has always tempted me. If he jumps first, speed & power and cool lines will be higher on the list.

graphicguy · March 2013

Oooooohhh....I like the TT 'vert!

Kirstie_H · March 2013

Me too - always have, and it's the one vehicle I've admired for a long time, so I don't think it's a phase that will just pass if I wait long enough.

mad_chicken · March 2013

Before you decide, test drive a miata. I know people that have opinions of it go to extremes good or bad, but it is really fun to drive.

graphicguy · March 2013

Kirstie....given my recent experiences with Audis, I've seen a lot of the TTs at the dealership. I understand your attraction to them Great looking cars with serious performance credentials.

Hope you get one. Love to see it when you do.

qbrozen · April 2013

I just received an email that reminded me of this discussion we had. The email was a "special offer" to get an oil change service on my 135 at the dealer I used for free maintenance and warranty work. $180!! Ummm... yeah... I will, without a doubt, be changing my own oil on this car for as long as I own it.

kyfdx · April 2013

Wow... thought I would start using an independent, once my BMW got out of the maintenance plan, but my dealer had a special for $95, so I got it done there..... and, my dealer is not famous for being cheap...

$180.. geez... :surprise:

graphicguy · April 2013

q.....that's a chunk of change for service. I'm thinking it's time to do it yourself, as you suggest, or find a good independent German car specialist.

kyfdx....even $95 sounds high to me. But, maybe I'm way out of touch.

james27 · April 2013

With engine oil available on sale from as little as $2/qt up to over $10, it really depends on what's used. BMW approved oils, being synthetic, are not cheap. Oil plus filter, not counting labor is a good chunk of that $95. Can't remember how many quarts the thing uses, but think it's nearing 7. Big oil reserve, synthetic, good filter all bare into the recommended fairly long oil service intervals on BMW's.

kyfdx · April 2013

BMW approved oils are $10/qt. at Autozone.. My son bought oil at the dealer today for $7, with BMWCCA discount...

abacomike · April 2013

Most European cars, the Germans in particular, treat their cars much better than the average American does.

You make some excellent points. I've owned BMW 5 Series cars until 2008. Since then, I have been a Mercedes E350 Sport Sedan enthusiast. It cost me nothing for maintenance on the BMW's. I have a concern regarding their policy of oil/filter changes every 15K miles - a little too long between oil changes. My Mercedes requires oil/filter changes about every 10,000 miles, or once a year for me. Their "A" services run about $300 (10,000, 30,000, 50,000 miles) and their "B" service runs about $500 (20,000, 40,000, 60,000 miles).

If I had a BMW, I would be changing the oil more frequently - thus I would have to pay for oil/filter changes at 10,000 and 25,000 miles etc.

I find the differences between Mercedes and BMW to be quite significant. BMW is a Sports Sedan with a true luxury flair while the Mercedes E350 Sport Sedan is a luxury vehicle with a sporty flair. Both are great cars, but quite different in many ways.

graphicguy · April 2013

I must be so far behind the times. $7/at for synth oil sounds OK. Don't know what the filters run....say $10/ea. Tire rotation is $20. Then labor charges....maybe $95/oil change isn't that far off the mark?

abacomike....you just hit on a very heated topic in BMW land....oil change intervals. If you go by the oil life monitor, I've seen change intervals as high as 19K miles. To add to that, BMWs don't come with a dipstick (neither does my Audi). So, you rely on the computer nannies to tell you if you're oil level is low.

kyfdx probably knows better than me, but I think BMW started these long oil change intervals about 7-8 years ago. So far, I've not heard of any catastrophic engine failures. But, I believe the jury is still out.

Some of this I attribute to using synth oil. Still, oil gets dirty, regardless of the type of oil you use.

I used to be religious with 5K oil changes (a throwback to Acura's oil change intervals). Now, I am religious with 10K oil change intervals.

Speaking of which, the Audi is due. And, the S/C V6 is either using oil, or the computer oil sensor is bad. It keeps saying I'm a qt low (but dealership says oil level is fine). Something's amiss.

abacomike · April 2013

you just hit on a very heated topic in BMW land....oil change intervals. If you go by the oil life monitor, I've seen change intervals as high as 19K miles

I remember back when I was buying BMW 5 Series vehicles in the mid to late 2000's, my dealer would do a free oil change every year, not matter how many miles. That was when it was changed at 12,000 miles. But I think it is up to the dealer to do the oil change earlier than 15K miles.

Yes, my BMW's had an electronically displayed oil dip stick in the NAV screen showing oil level as well as the miles to the next oil change.

I agree with you - 10,000 mile intervals are perfect for most full synthetic oil engines. That is what it averages for Mercedes Benz engines. I have a dipstick, but there is also a light that will illuminate if the oil level drops more than 1 quart to alert you to check the oil and add the missing amount.

qbrozen · April 2013

As said above, at least with my particular car, it isn't just an idiot light. There is an actual graphical dipstick I can pull up on my display. So its not all that bad.

I have no followed the change intervals given by the computer. Unfortunately, the first owner who leased it did, I'm sure.

personally, I'm doing mine at double the pace. So every ~7500.

abacomike · April 2013

personally, I'm doing mine at double the pace. So every ~7500

Actually, that's a little early - but the length of time the oil is in the engine is just as important as the miles. I put on about 10,000 miles a year, so my oil changes are once a year, on average - that is whenever I keep a car that long - which is rare. (lol)

qbrozen · April 2013

I drive mine pretty hard, and I also take the turbo into account. If it was a more mundane car with more mundane driving, I'd probably extend it.

I just did 2 track days with it this week, so I don't think I'll even wait till 7500 this time, as a matter of fact.

james27 · April 2013

The BMW computer takes into account the way you drive. Personally, I believe that the engineers that build the thing have a clue what is required to keep it running well. At least with my dealer, they'll do a free oil change at 12-months, or at the computer designation, whichever occurs first. Having sent in used oil for analysis on my last car, I believe that a good synthetic oil can easily last as long as the computer thinks it can. I was using mostly Mobil 1 on my last car, and 10-12K intervals were fine after testing verified it. The BMW uses more oil in the sump, a better oil (IMHO), and revs lower than my old car, so I have no qualms about believing their computed oil change intervals. The big thing is the TBN, as long as that stays above zero, and you don't have significant dilutions from fuel or other contaminants (say from a leaking head gasket - antifreeze; or rings, fuel) the oil remains suitable for normal operations. IMHO, replacing the oil/filter earlier is a waste of money.

qbrozen · April 2013

And, according to BMW, the trans fluid is lifetime (although the trans manufacturer says otherwise), so I'm still going to opt to not follow manufacturers recommendations, and that includes how they've programmed the oil life computer.

abacomike · April 2013

...so I'm still going to opt to not follow manufacturers recommendations, and that includes how they've programmed the oil life computer

I am going to hazard a guess that Mercedes, Volvo, BMW, Audi, etc., program their computer chips to "average wear and tear" specifications and then even provide the owner with "ranges" depending upon use and driving habits. As an example, Mercedes Benz computer chips provide two "wear and tear" specs depending upon usage - one based upon mileage and one based upon "timeframes".

In other words, if Mercedes states in its manual that the oil should be changed according to the car's "computer" read out, their recommendations are for 1 year intervals or 10,000 miles, whichever occurs first and that is what the readouts provide.

At first, my "monitor" indicated number of days to the next "A" or "B" service, but then started showing miles to the next service because of the type of usage. I believe BMW and the rest do the same thing.

I would change the oil in my car at a maximum of 1 year or 10,000 miles, not any longer. BMW uses 15,000+ miles, but dealers offer a complimentary oil change/filter change once each year, no matter what the mileage is. So they too believe that oil should be changed at least once per year.

If I was going to keep my Mercedes E350 for a few years, I would change the oil every 6-8 months because I do mostly stop and go driving, with a little highway mixed in between. So my engine is being started and stopped frequently.

I have not seen any long term results of keeping synthetic oil in an engine for 15,000 miles or longer, no matter what the timeframe, but I believe 15,000 miles is too long to wait to replace oil in a high performance engine. Just MHO.

james27 · April 2013

It's not just the car manufacturers that recommend a max of one year, many oil manufacturers do as well. It's my belief that some of the buffers, etc. in the oil have a life based on time once introduced to an engine, whereas many of the wear reducers are more based on heat (not generally a factor for most people) and total rpms. One of the magic numbers is the TBN (total base number)...this indicates the oil's ability to neutralize acids. In all of the tests I've seen, albeit not a huge amount, the TBN was still a decent positive number after 11-12K miles on my old Infiniti. They called for an oil change at a 3750-mile interval! That had less oil, turned about twice as fast on average at cruise, and was a less sophisticated engine and a lesser oil. They used a crude oil based lubricant, I switched to a synthetic, and was easily able to get 3-4x the oil life without showing up any more wear metals when analyzed (I did a baseline test of the crude oil based, then did more as miles accumulated until I found my sweet spot with the oil and vehicle, then just used that interval and tested then...all was well). I will say that testing did save some major work...while it was not obvious on that car that it had started to use some antifreeze, it did show up in the oil analysis, and I was able to fix that before any damage occurred.

IMHO, instead of guessing, (probably) wasting a significant amount of money, why not just send a sample in for analysis the next time it's changed and see how much, if any, life is left. Depending on what you want them to test for, you can get one done at a certified lab for in the order of $15-50. Those in the $20-25 range cover the major important items: viscosity, TBN, metals, water, gas, and most wear inhibitors. While I haven't done it yet for this car, mine's two years old now, has less than 19K on it, and because of time and mileage, has had three oil changes (strange, but while they'll do a free one at a year, they don't reset the computer, and when it calls for an oil change, they'll do it again - had I driven all of those miles in less than a year, it would have been around 18K miles).

abacomike · April 2013

It's not just the car manufacturers that recommend

James, thanks for the info. Well thought out and documented. Appreciate your input.

abacomike · April 2013

I just finished reading a review of the 2014 Mercedes E 350 Sport Sedan (which I will be taking delivery of next week) which revealed that it has an electronically assisted power steering system. I have never driven a vehicle with electric power steering - I have always had power steering driven by hydraulics which was belt driven off the engine.

I do know that there are pros and cons to this type of power steering such as a lack of "road" feel/feedback to the driver, increased fuel economy due to one less pump driven directly from the engine, over/under steering due to the lack of "feel" of the road, fewer moving parts and reduced overall weight, to name a few.

If you have any data or opinions regarding this system, I would greatly appreciate your input and feedback. Would I notice any negative handling of the vehicle? Does this system have the same or similar feel of regular variable power steering (hydraulics)? Will I be disappointed with the cornering and handling?

Thanks, in advance for your input and/or opinions.

billyperksii · April 2013

Why don't you test drive the car first then take delivery.

abacomike · April 2013

Why don't you test drive the car first then take delivery

That is exactly what I intend on doing! I always go over a new car with a fine toothed comb - dings, scratches, dents, paint defects, alignment, etc. Once I have accomplished that, and I am sure everything is AOK, I then consummate the deal.

I always make sure they loaded the tires with *nitro fill, that the car is driving straight, that the steering wheel, when centered, keeps the car in a straight line, etc.

I go over the paint, sheet metal, etc., even before we finalize numbers.

I was in the automobile business from 2001 through 2008, as both a salesman and then, for several years, as a sales manager. You'd be amazed at what we used to get from the Port of Jacksonville in terms of damaged, brand new cars. Sometimes it was the "carriers" fault, sometimes the cars were damaged during the unloading process, etc.

Thanks for the heads up, billyperksii. Appreciate your input.

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