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Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    That is good to know, as my AARP literature has picked up recently.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Mark...

    I was just reading my latest issue of BW.. I assume you have seen it?

    A celebrity in our midst... ;-)

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Just finished reading about 3 series in Automobile. Very telling that, when it discussed the cars that might match or surpass 3, it mentioned the next gen Lexus IS and Infiniti G. C class and A4 didn't rate even a mention.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Member Posts: 54
    Dude, You are guilty of the same mis-matches as most of the comparos re the RL. First of all, wait until the BMW 530 is laden with the AWD system, optioned up then tested next to the RL. It will weight about the same, be slower and cost a hell of a lot more.

    Dude, I think you need to check your facts again. The 530i is already a markedly better performer than the RL in nearly every quantitative and qualitative performance comparison. The current BMW 530i with 225hp already spanks the RL in the 1/4 mile, 0-100, braking, lateral grip and other dynamic measures. The only performance advantage the RL holds over the 530i is 3/10 of a second to 60 and even this small lead will vanish when BMW releases its new 3.0 liter engine with even more power.

    Also, you're just kidding yourself if you think the 530i with all wheel drive will "weigh about the same" as the nose heavy RL. As it is, the RL (“The Whale”) weighs a good 600lbs more than the 530i. Sorry, but the addition of an optional AWD system simply isn't enough to close that gap. If anything, the significant increase in power will more than offset any small increase in weight due to AWD.

    Still will be lacking features,ergonomics, reliability, looks, and interior quality.

    Really? Could you please direct me towards all of the "features" that the 5 series lacks relative to the RL. Last time I checked, the 5 had all the features that the RL has and then some (Head-up display, SMG transmission, etc.) You may have a point about reliability, but that's about it. You must be blind if you think the RL has better "looks" and "interior quality" than the 5. Simply put, the RL is one of the most atrocious looking cars on the road with an interior lifted from the Civic to boot.

    In fact the RL beats it on safety as well.

    ROFL. This has to be the funniest thing I have read in a long time. How exactly does the RL beat the 5 for safety? The 5 series has more safety features than the RL and a better company reputation for safety to boot. In fact, last time I checked, the RL didn't even offer rear side airbags! Not to mention the RL still uses a 1980s era 3-Channel ABS system... good for 180ft stops from 70mph.

    The last data I saw had the RL on par with others on stopping distances.

    You saw wrong. Car and Driver has tested and confirmed that the RL has the longest stopping distance of any car in its class. The brakes on the RL are absolutely horrible. Go look it up if you don't believe me. 70-0mph was measured at a chart topping 180 feet while the 545i did the same stop in 156 feet and the 530i did even better. Not only does the porker RL have the worst brakes in its class, but also among the worst brakes out of any class. For example, the BMW X5 SUV does 70-0 in 167 feet and it isn’t even a car!

    My dealer service experience has been light years better and actually caused me to switch from BMW to Acura alone.

    Wow, downgrading from BMW to Acura because of dealership experience sounds pretty lame. Who cares about how friendly car dealers are? If you're willing to switch brands simply because the Acura sales staff sucks up and makes you feel warm and fuzzy you must not be much of a car person.

    It's about the whole package here. If you are talking sports cars, then track performance is what matters. Maybe.

    What whole package are you referring to? I guess by "whole package" you mean brakes worse than many large trucks? Or maybe you mean underwhelming acceleration from the over-hyped and under-performing, “no-torque all rev” Honda engine? Or maybe you mean greasy handling and non-tactile feedback? Or maybe it’s the bland Honda styling and cramped interior that are part of the whole package? Interesting.
  • jmatthejmatthe Member Posts: 51
    Your data point on braking is the only one where the Acura did poorly. Try reading a few others. The 5 is the ugliest car made today in its class. Go look at dealer lots. they are full of them, some dealers offering 4-8 K off to move them. Your data on weight is unoptioned weight. Loaded up with similar equipment, the difference is much less. Do you own a 5 series? Safety? I was referring to the crash test data. RL best car ever tested.
    The dealer experience is not about nice guys...about getting things repaired right, loaners when needed and promptness. My old BMW service guys were really nice guys. We had coffee every other week while I sat waiting to be picked up (no loaners usually) bringing the thing back for the same problem half the time. Obviously you don't own one or you would know what that is all about.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    You have an annoying habit of calling people names who do not agree with you on highly subjective issues.
    To wit in your reply to jmatthe:
    "You must be blind if you think the RL has better "looks"....than the 5."
    You are entitled to your opinion. But jmatthe is also entitled to his/hers.
    Your posts can be informative if a little too emotional.
    I suggest you try real hard to STIFLE THE NAME-CALLING!
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Well, I do have a 545 and I'd put it up against the RL any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lots are full of them? I don't know where you live, but that's certainly not the case here in suburban Chicago. Plus sales of the new 5 are consistently getting stronger and stronger. 4-8K off? Go ahead and try to get close to 8K off. I got 2700 off on mine and made them move up a bit on my trade-in (year old 330xi), but that was absolutely all they were willing to do. FYI, my dealership (which is pretty large) only has two 545's on the lot at a time. Obviously, they'd have more 530's because they sell more, but often times you have to order BMW's anyway because they DON'T keep a lot of cars on their lots comparable to other brands. You're certainly welcome to your opinion of what the car looks like, but as I've said repeatedly to people on these message boards, in real-world experience with my car I have yet to take it to the car wash without someone telling me what a hot car it is (and I honestly could care less what they think so it's not like I'm looking for their validation). IMO comparing the Acura RL to the BMW 5 series is comparing apples to oranges. The RL simply doesn't compare in terms of performance, to to be fair it really isn't meant to. It's got a completely different target group of buyers. BMW competes with MB, Lexus, Infiniti and Audi for the most part. I would say that Acura is more in the Saab, Volvo and lower-end Lexus, Infiniti market.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Hey rich545.
    Have you had any software issues with the 545?
    I notice several consumer reviewers on Edmunds mention this.
    I do intend to test drive the 545.
    You take it to the car wash?
    Thanks.
    hpowders
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I think ALL of the personal comments in here need to stop.

    We do need to remember we are discussing - discussing - opinions about which we may certainly disagree. If we all agreed on all these issues, there'd be nothing to talk about.

    There is no reason to insult someone if you feel differently about something than he did.

    Let's tone it down.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Yep I saw it, guilty as charged. Hopefully I have not ticked off Audi -- but, I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

    The new Automobile magazine has a wake up article about German quality and reliability. Mostly the article is a big indictment against Mercedes and VW, but my interpretation of the article is that, other than Porsche and possibly BMW, the Japanese cars -- in GERMANY -- are the ones that the natives vote as the highest quality and most reliable.

    The Emperor Has No Clothes, indeed.

    Now, however -- I must add, I have had some problems with my Audis since 1977 -- but I would NOT conclude that they are anywhere near as bad as the article in Automobile might lead one to believe.

    My current Audi, and my wife's (both 2003 models) have been fundamentally trouble free. The battery in my wife's key fob keeps dying and I had some On*star problems the very first 11 days of ownership. Other than that, routine. I even have the original brakes on my allroad. The previous two A6's 4.2's went through a combined total of 9 sets of rotors and pads in a combined milage of under 60,000 miles.

    My only recurring problem is the tire pressure monitor seems to only work above 45 degrees -- and this has been since day one. I guess it could be the batteries in the sending units, but I picked up my allroad in October 2002 and the TP monitors worked until it got cold here in Cincinnati, then started working again in Spring. It has been not a big enough of a deal to bother with. I would hardly condemn the brand as low quality and unreliable based on our experiences.

    Those of you who saw the March 14th BW article may think I am or have become anti-Audi. Quite the contrary -- but I do have my concerns but they are overwhelmingly a concern that Audi has lost its marketing edge. I include in that broad brush concern, the lack of a stimulative leasing program and the failure of the marketing types to prevail when the new A6 3.2 came out "less quick" than the outgoing A6 S-Line.

    If someone would have asked me, I would have said to lower the final drive ratio by a few percent, which would have probably decreased the gas milage by about 1 MPG but would have improved the 0-60 time by an all important tenth of a second or two.

    Indeed, the final drive ratio could have been lowered and the gearing for 5th and 6th gear overdriven just a hair and the highway milage would probably have remained intact, while simultaneously making the car quicker between 0 and 65mph, which, as we all know is "the number" here in the US.

    Here's another relatively simple "touch" too -- rear seat video seems to be offered or coming soon all across the board, from US and Japanese manufacturers alike -- even the new Audi Q7 (and I think allroad) were shown with rear seat video.

    Two things leap to mind: profit center and giving the customer what they want. It seems odd to me to read in the BW article that the Germans have had so many problems with electronics -- since they inevitably bring electronic options and features to market several years after their competition from the US and Japan.

    Anyway, my loyalty to the goodness of the products and to that special feel you get behind the wheel of a German car remains largely intact. What has been eroded, however, is my belief that Audi (to name one) actually has "listened" to the [US] market. The BW article did offer up some encouragement -- but it still seems Audi has a couple of years of catch up to play. The thing is, they have -- apparently for no good (or perceivable) reason -- not capitalized upon their inherent differentiation. Now is the time to strike -- but apparently giving the marketing machine a tune-up isn't going to happen soon enough.

    The good news is: the products themselves. The bad news is: (that old saw) "perception is reality." You cannot simply price your cars "higher" as if that will make them actually worth more in the consumer's mind. You have to demonstrate that they are different, better and then they will be worth more. If BMW would raise their prices (for leasing, to make the point) to Audi's level -- the Audi would be a much higher value proposition. Unfortunately the market perception ranks BMW higher than Audi and a more expensive BMW can be leased for a significantly lower price than a less expensive Audi.

    Unfortunately, Audi has not yet earned that ranking on this side of the Atlantic (perhaps it has elsewhere).

    It pains me.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I haven't had a single software issue with mine. In fact, my only complaint about iDrive is that I find the processor to be kind of slow. Yes, I do take it to the car wash. I honestly don't have time to wash it myself everytime I want it clean (nor the inclination in the winter especially). I well aware of the reasons not to take it to a car wash, but at the end of the day it really is just a car. I love cars as much as anyone else, but I do feel that we (myself included) can get a little ridiculous about babying them. Hey, at least it's a good car wash!

    I wanted to talk about the Japanese vs. German luxury car issue for a second. One thing that I think is important to realize here is that there are many people that don't really cross the line between the two. Myself as an example, I honestly don't even consider Acura, Lexus or Infiniti when I'm looking to buy a new car because frankly I just don't like Japanese cars. I respect them in many ways, but they just aren't my thing (and I have driven many of them). I think I repesent a lot of BMW owners in that sense. I'll look at MB or Audi, but I have no interest in their Japanese counterparts. It's not about snobbery, and I think that Japanese cars are better in many respects. It's just that I happen to like how German cars feel to drive and I just feel comfortable in them. I'm sure it's the same for many Japanese car owners. There's nothing wrong with this; it's just really personal preference. Hell, it's probably not even really based on as many tangible things as we seem to think. Many of the differences in handling dynamics are so close that we really probably can't feel them. We think we can, but I think it's largely based on our perceptions more so than reality. For example, if a car is .01 seconds faster 0-60 does that really feel much different? No. Bottom line is, I like BMW's because they suit me in more ways than other cars. I'm sure the same is true for anyone that tends to choose one car brand over another consistently.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thanks for the comprehensive answer. The 545 is next on my test drive list.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    When's the last time you bought a TV built in Germany? Japan rules the world in electronics, and that translates to their cars as well. LG and Samsung are hot on the heels of Sony, Matsushita, and Hitachi, and that seems to be translating to Korean cars as well. Its certainly shocking to see Hyundai with Honda and Subaru as its peers in PP 100 vehicles.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The Koreans are catching up with golfers, too. Many fine Korean girls on the LPGA tour.
  • nebraskaguynebraskaguy Member Posts: 341
    >>My dealer service experience has been light years better and actually caused me to switch from BMW to Acura alone.

    >>Wow, downgrading from BMW to Acura because of dealership experience sounds pretty lame. Who cares about how friendly car dealers are? If you're willing to switch brands simply because the Acura sales staff sucks up and makes you feel warm and fuzzy you must not be much of a car person.

    Where in jmatthe's post did he refer to sales staff?? Most likely he was referring to the arrogance of the BMW service staff, which is anything but a lame reason. I have three friends who won't even consider BMWs because of their past experiences with BMW service staffs. In the DC area, most of them act like they're doing you a favor by talking to you. They also act like any problem you're having with their wonderful car is your imagination until proven otherwise.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The German dealer superiority complex is what caused me to jump ship for my '96 LS400, and I havent looked back since.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    "Those of you who saw the March 14th BW article may think I am or have become anti-Audi."

    "BW"... are you referring to Business Week magazine? I'd like to read the article.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Yes, he is.. check it out.. He is quoted..

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  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Thanks
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    So by your logic a car is only summed up by its electronics? Hyundai, Honda and Subaru are irrelevant to the discussion because they aren't competing cars. I mean, I'm willing to concede that Japan builds better TV's, but to assume that translates to cars is quite a jump. Are they in general more reliable? Sure. Are they as fun to drive? Not in my experience. Take my mother-in-law's LS430 for an example. It's a car that you ride in rather than one you drive IMO. It feels similar to a Cadillac to me. Again, I'm not saying Japanese cars are worse, I'm just saying that in my opinion, German cars offer a more spirited drive.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Unfortunately the RL is an expensive, smallish looking ugly Accord. While there is no doubt it will have it's appeal, the newly re-designed 5/3 series has it all over the competitors in terms of the total package.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The 38" widescreen HDTV in my bedroom IS German, oddly enough -- Loewe. Now it may or may not have been entirely built, assembled or whatever from parts built and sourced from Germany (it probably wasn't). In fact my 58" HDTV in the family room in my house is a Pioneer Elite (made in Mexico).

    Your point, or at least the spirit of your point is dead on however. Certain countries in the world, USED to have "dominance" in one or another area of manufacturing or some other cultural or people specific attibute. Now however it is less where something is assembled but more where it was designed and engineered that establishes its inherent qualities (perceived and objective).

    A small nit, my home theater processor and amliphiers are 'merican -- the brand is Proceed, FWIW. I certainly think Japan has great electronics, but there are many high end pieces created right here in North America and also several world class electronics companies in Europe (McIntosh and B&O spring to mind).

    And, as you know, several of the most popular "Japanese" cars in the world are made within a couple of hours from my fair city, Cincinnati -- Honda products right here in Ohio and Camry's and Avalon's just 65 miles down into the state of Kentucky in Lexington.

    The phrase "built in" seems to mean less than where something is designed and engineered. It wouldn't shock me to learn that someday soon, Audis and BMW's and Cadillacs are exported from some obscure locale in China.

    I am not sure how Japan's preeminence in electronics translates to their cars -- not that I am rejecting the notion that Japanese cars are excellent (perhaps I just don't share your belief that they quite yet "rule.")
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "the newly re-designed 5/3 series has it all over the competitors in terms of the total package."

    In sporty driving dynamics, yes. In any other area, no. So, in terms of the "total package", no.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    March 14th Business Week article PP 64 - 68. The article I was interview for appears on P 68. I have now officially burned, what? about 5 minutes of my 15 minutes of fame (that we all will have in our lives).

    I would recommend the article on P 64 of the 3/14 BW and immediately after I would read the article in the new (April) Automobile magazine about the German cars "losing their lustre." Sobering, especially when you learn in the Automobile article that the German's themselves perceive Japanese cars to be both higher in quality and reliability than German cars.

    Eye opening would be one way to describe it.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Funny I don't feel anti-Audi. Indeed, my loyalty has only been somewhat eroded. I feel they have lost their marketing edge and that many other fine competitive cars have or are shortyly coming to market.

    I think I said the circumstances "pain me." If I were anti-Audi I believe I would not be pained by what I perceive is happening which is, IMO, "they are losing their [marketing] edge."
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    Mark.. your house sounds like fun.. Can I come over and hang out? ;-)

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  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'll try not to get too off-topic here, but that sounds like a very nice setup! Perhaps you could contact me with all of the details, I'd be curious to know about the speakers, interconnetcs, etc. My own electronics are American designed, Chinese built Parasounds, and Canadian speakers. My 57" HDTV is a Hitachi. Once you get into hi-fi, I agree there are great products that come from America to Australia. Japanese companies like Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer and Denon seem content to rule the entry to "mid-fi" level and leave uber-fi to the rest of the world.

    I know Toyota, Honda, and Nissan build a lot of products here, but the cars that are still built in Japan like the SC and LS430 are still the best from a precision stand point.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I'll take your word on that last point. I thought that the Camry (built right here in 'merica, in Lexington KY) was often lauded with "best this that and the other award" from JD Powers and the rest.

    Not that this detracts from your statement pertaining to the inherent goodness of the SC and LS build quality, not at all.

    My speakers, FWIW are also Canadian -- Mirage OM's with the powered subs built in, bi polar center and mains and a center sub, also a Mirage. 5 subs in total in the main room, built in McIntosh Tukan's and M&K rear channel sub and .1 Velodyne HGS (1,250 watt 3,000 watt peak) 12" sub rounds out the 5.1 set up. Source components (DVD Laser disk, etc) all Elite (replicated in bedroom). Power conditioner, Monster and cables are all silverlink (75 Ohm), speaker wires are all heavy gauge monster low oxygen pure copper affairs run through shielded conduits in the walls terminating with Moster gold interconnects. HDTV from a DTC100 with 3LNB dish; house operates on its own uninteruptable power supply (10,000 watt natural gas generator) during outages so "the movies aren't interrupted" -- I hate when that happens. DVD burner is Elite as is the CD playback unit. Total power to the speakers, including the subs is 2,300 watts. 5 main channels are class A/B amps each @ 150 watts @ 8 Ohms.

    All lighting groups (14 of them) are on remote activated dimmers.

    Next stop 70" Sony Qualla (SP) true HDTV.

    Now, back to cars.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Ah a fellow fan of Mirage! What a coincidence! I've been a fan since my first pair of M-1s. I was lucky enough to get to talk to Andy Welker a bit at a CES a few years ago. I really wanted them to build the OM-1 they showed off in '01, but alas, it was just not to be. By the way, all that bass is waaay beyond overkill, how can you stand it? I decided against upgrading to the OM-5 from my OM-6 mains because I felt the switch from sealed to ported made them too boomy, and I dont have ANY other subwoofers. My center is an OM-C2, rears are OM-10s.

    The power amp is a Parasound Halo 51, delivering roughly 325W or so per channel (6ohm speakers). My SSP is a Halo C2. Music and movies are handled by an Elite F07 301-disc DVD\CD changer. I keep waiting for Pioneer to update this model with progressive scan, SACD\DVD-A capability, HDMI and i.Link outputs, etc. and Pioneer unforunately continues to not deliver an update. The DV-59AVi is great, now wheres the changer version!?

    Interconnects are Signal Cable pure Silver Resolutions, video are BetterCables Silver Serpent S-video and component. The front the channels are wired with Audioquest Bedrock internal bi-wire, the rears with DH Labs T-14 with a set of T-14 jumpers.

    Finally, while I admit I dont have a whole house UPS (that is really cool) the home theater is on its own dedicated 20 amp circuit. Every AC outlet in the room is a PS Audio powerport. All power cables are 6-gauge PS Audio xStream statements, connected to a PS Power Director 4.7. While its not QUITE as pure as using one of PS's AC regenerators, its still VERY clean AC, and I dont have a turntable where I would have to worry about the speed of my AC sinewave.

    Anyway, sorry everyone, I know this isnt the Stereophile forums, but I love to talk systems with other hometheaterphiles. Sorry hosts. Back to the cars.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Member Posts: 54
    Your data point on braking is the only one where the Acura did poorly. Try reading a few others.

    The RL has also been thoroughly criticized for its lackluster handling among other things. It's not just the fact that it has brakes fit for a Kia; it's also the fact that it has mediocre performance across the board... especially given its generous HP rating.

    The 5 is the ugliest car made today in its class.

    Your opinion. At least it doesn't look like a dressed up Accord with a tacky interior.

    Go look at dealer lots. they are full of them, some dealers offering 4-8 K off to move them.

    I'm not even going to argue about this. The 5 series outsells the RL as well as several other cars in its class.

    Your data on weight is unoptioned weight. Loaded up with similar equipment, the difference is much less.

    Adding the optional navigation system and premium audio package isn't going to add 600lbs to the weight of the car. Heck, the 545i with a V8 still weighs some 200lbs less than the RL. Oh, and let's not forget the fact that the RL has atrocious weight distribution at a worst in class 58/42.

    Do you own a 5 series? Safety? I was referring to the crash test data. RL best car ever tested.

    Yes, I have actually owned two 5 series. I'm not sure where you came up with the notion that the RL was the "best car ever tested." It means very little that the RL received a good score in the extremely antiquated and primitive NHTSA test that no one seriously acknowledges. In the end the RL has fewer safety features than the 5 series and a far lesser company reputation for safety.

    The dealer experience is not about nice guys...about getting things repaired right, loaners when needed and promptness. My old BMW service guys were really nice guys. We had coffee every other week while I sat waiting to be picked up (no loaners usually) bringing the thing back for the same problem half the time. Obviously you don't own one or you would know what that is all about.

    My experiences with BMW and Mercedes dealerships over the years have been extremely positive on the whole. The few times I have had to take my cars in for service have been quick and painless events. For example, I recently made a regular maintenance appointment for my M5. I was given a free 325i loaner. I picked up my car a few hours later and that was that... no problems, no hassle. A positive dealership experience is a nice perk, but nothing I care too much about in the long run. I make my car purchases based on more important criteria.

    In the end the only advantage that Japanese cars have over German cars is reliability and price. The Japanese take a back seat to the Germans in all other aspects. If I want a cheap and reliable car I'll buy a Toyota or Honda. If I want the best in performance, style and safety I'll buy a BMW or Mercedes and deal with the occasional electrical glitch.

    I guess it just depends on your priorities...
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Mastering technology is an art that you seem to enjoy, but then I Read the Business Week article this afternoon at the club in a sitting position above the whirlpool with my feet dangling in the 104 degree water, because I knew I would be into the article for longer than the 20 minutes the maximum I usually allow myself to be submerged up to my armpits..
    I would give you at least 7 minutes of fame because she finished the article by mentioning you again in a complimentary way saying that Audi would be basically remiss in losing you as a loyalist. Which is very true. In the lead article Audi's CEO Winterkorn is described as a man obsessed with creating the perfect cars. His meetings with his top executives must wreak great tension as he insists that.."The brains to remedy the defects, MUST be in the room" and commments like "Don't bore me with the good news, give me the WORST" ...wonder if he meant "Wurst", the best of which are probably made right here at Usingers Sausage Co. in Milwaukee. Any way he's fanatical about improving the quality and has a PHD in MetaPhysics so you know he's going to get the job done right! The US Market led by de Nysschen is against incentives (Like lower lease rates) because he says this will hurt Audi's image and resale value. He hopes their current efforts will turn their customers into good will ambassadors. They need loyalists like Mark. That is very true. Do they need to change their marketing. Leasing represents 43% of the US business. US sales were down 10% last year. HELLO!! An amazing statistic emerged in the article though and I would loved to have invested 100K in their stock in 2000 because it would be worth $439K today! One of their US customers is K D Lang...I'll bet she didn't lease her Audi.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    If I want the best in performance, style, safety, and features I'll buy an M35 and NOT deal with the occasional electrical glitch.

    ----

    Adding on AWD will add 170 pounds to the 530i. Adding on the level of equipment of the RL will add about 100 pounds to the 530i. So a similarly loaded 530xi auto will weigh about 3750. The RL weighs 3984. Doesn't sound like a 600 pound difference to me. The weight balance of the RL does suck though.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Doesnt the STS weigh even MORE than the RL? Cleary trying to save weight was not a priority for Cadillac. Still, Acura needs to add some torque. Electric motors delivering massive torque loads at 0rpm onwards would do the trick nicely, considering Honda apparently wont do the 8. Unforunately, the batteries required would add even more pounds, which the RL definitely doesnt need.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I assume Ms. Lang was comp'd her Audi.

    If 43% of the cars are leased, I am positive 57% are NOT purchased in cash. The point: the MAJORITY of Audis (and I can extrapolate and assume other European cars) are NOT purchased in cash.

    Attractive "acquisition" programs are part of the Marketing Mix. Creating or at least attempting to create perfect cars is great and I applaud Audi for making this a priority -- but in the end, selling as many cars as possible is a key component to building market share.

    BMW and Mercedes are, according to the article "Lost Its Luster" [sic] in the new Automobile magazine low in quality and reliability cars (Audi did not escape some pretty damning statistics, either) -- but their reputations and the perception in the marketplace belies their "relativel" poor quality and reliability.

    There is a phrase "resting on one's laurel's" -- another perspective is, until Audi builds sufficient laurels, it is, after all, difficult to rest on them.

    None of these articles and statistics that I am citing track with my personal experiences, but, there these words, these scathing words are, published by automotive "experts" -- and then a few folks in a chat room start coming to the conclusion that someone at Audi has not quite recognized that those laurel buds haven't quite bloomed -- give it a couple more years THEN stand your ground.

    Put this current go to market idea back in the oven, it is not yet fully baked.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    tiag_m5: "In the end the only advantage that Japanese cars have over German cars is reliability and price."

    Don't forget interior design and control functionality...in the case of the BMW 5 anyway. I have no dog in this fight (5 series vs RL), but I have to say that the interior of the 5, idrive included, in my subjective opinion of course, is lacking in both beauty and function at best, when compared to, really, anything in it's class.

    As I've posted before; There's minimalist and then there's just plain bad...it's bad. IMO.

    As far as RL vs. 5 series, if I had to choose, I guess I'd go with the 5, but given the M35/45, A6, or even the overpriced E Class, I would choose any of the above over either the 5 series or the RL, dollar for dollar.

    PS - Reliability and price are two pretty significant one-ups to have.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    is there a link for that automobile magazine article or do i have to pick up the paperback?
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Markcincinnati,

    It's not where things are made, it's how. The Toyota Production System is the most advanced automobile production system in existence. It's better than everybody else's no matter what.

    It doesn't mean that the cars they build will out accelerate, out-brake, or out-skid pad cars from Shelby, Lotus, Ferrari or fuel dragsters. But it does mean that their cars will be closer to their design intentions than anyone else's. They get it right more often and the cars stay right longer than any other brand in the history of the automobile business.

    You might not like the handling or the styling or the zero to 60 time, but if you are looking for a luxury vehicle that does what the manufacturer intended and that meets your needs, no one else is even close.

    It's because of 'how' they are made.

    It's not where it was designed or engineered, it's how the design and engineering is integrated with how it's made.

    The Mercedes ML is a classic example of dumping a lousy European manufacturing process into the US, absent a local supply chain, a poorly educated labor force, and being surprised at the result - a vehicle that embarrased Mercedes and it's customers and earned a continous "don't buy" rating from almost every rating service. Engineered in Germany for manufacture in Alabama. "Verner, cank you say uhal?" Volfgank asked.

    It's "how" you do things these days, not where you build them. Great car companies wouldn't think of throwing their processes, willy-nilly over the wall, and let a bunch of bubbas put them together without managing the 'how'.

    The 'how' from in Germany, is not the 'how' that makes good cars anymore. They are ok, but engineering isn't independent of the reproduction process in the factory or the problem remediation process.

    Great engineering is only good intentions, until it shows up on the road and actually works, all of the time.

    Wonderful styling can make you feel better, but when your wife can't get the zipper to work on the designer gown or the Groen faucet blows a leak in the handle, then you realize that you've been had by dreamers that can't turn their ideas into reality. But boy, their pricing will keep their marketing make you believe that a great fix is just around the corner.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    I am butting in only because I looked for the link and BW doesn't put their CURRENT Magazine on THE SITE. It isn't there because it would no doubt cut into their Mag sales. Barnes and Noble has it.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    The brilliant "Footie" lets another hammer fall! BAM!!
  • jmatthejmatthe Member Posts: 51
    In any case re: the 5 vs anything including the RL...sticker price is $10,000 more for a 530 and 15-18 more for a comperably equiped 545. Whoever is whining about his 5 series is correct.They are not in the same class. I saved enough in deciding on the RL to get half way to my spring toy, TBD, but likely to be topless.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well said. According to the latest CR report, problems for Japan are steady (around 10%), the US is down slightly to around 17%, and Europe is up to 21%. As the cars get older, the differences get more severe, with 5 year old European cars having 3x the number of PP 100 as Japan.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Member Posts: 54
    If I want the best in performance, style, safety, and features I'll buy an M35 and NOT deal with the occasional electrical glitch.

    My condolences.

    The M is fugly to the max. Out of all the fugly designs to be churned out of Infiniti's bowls in recent years, the sheer atrocity of the M can only be topped by the king and queen of hideous: G35 and FX. Performance is probably the best out of the Japanese trio but definitely not on par with the 5. Please, don't kid yourself. Oh, and given Nissan's rather embarrassing heritage for engineering deathtraps that receive piss poor ratings in crash tests, I'm not sure I would feel very safe behind the wheel of the M. It doesn't even offer rear side airbags of all things...

    Adding on AWD will add 170 pounds to the 530i. Adding on the level of equipment of the RL will add about 100 pounds to the 530i. So a similarly loaded 530xi auto will weigh about 3750. The RL weighs 3984. Doesn't sound like a 600 pound difference to me. The weight balance of the RL does suck though.

    170 pounds? On what authority can you make this claim? Do you work in upper management BMW? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that this sounds a bit random.

    Let's just assume that you're correct. The 530i weighs 3483 lbs. with an automatic transmission. The RL (codename "Piggy") tips the scales at 3984 lbs. So if we add your arbitrary 170lbs to the 530i we get 3653 pounds vs. 3984 pounds. That's a difference of more than 330 pounds. Optional navigation screens and heated seats aren't going to amount to 330 pounds no matter how you cut it. Oh, and let's not forget that AWD is still optional and that BMW is upgrading its 3.0 engine with more power to boot.

    Even if the two did have similar weights it wouldn't matter much. The balance of the RL is awful and truck-ish, the brakes belong on a $10k Kia Rio, and the handling is greasy. Not to mention that the exterior looks like a diseased Accord and the engine has to be redlined for every smidge of torque.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Member Posts: 54
    Don't forget interior design and control functionality...in the case of the BMW 5 anyway.

    Well I can't say that I am a fan of the new BMW interiors but, with the exception of the GS, the Japanese interiors are just as bad if not worse (especially Infiniti). The functionality problems of I-Drive are way over-hyped... simply another thing for Japanese loyalists to bash even though most of them have probably never even used it. It's pretty much just a huge domino effect. One magazine editor couldn't figure out how to use I-drive and all of a sudden everyone collectively deems it to be the work of Satan himself. The reality is anyone with a high school diploma that isn't completely computer illiterate can easily navigate the "complexities" of I-Drive. The flashy colors and pretty menus found with Lexus may be enticing to some people, but really don't impress me all that much.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I dont' need your smug condolences, thank you.

    The AWD in the 330xi adds 170 pounds to the 330i. A loaded Avalon weighs 110 pounds more than a base Avalon, per Toyota specs. It's not that hard to extrapolate from that knowledge that a fully loaded 530xi will weigh about 270 pounds more than a base 530i. Next time, try to bring some support for your assertions, instead of spewing about "bowls, atrocity, and disease."

    I'm not going to blast the 5, as it is a fine car. I feel no need to blast other cars in the M's class just because I like the M.

    As I've said many times, the 530i is the king of sporty handling in this class. The M35 is second. The M35 tops the 530i in terms of acceleration, room, features, interior quality, interior design, and ergonomics. I like both the 5's and the M's exterior design.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    tiag_m5,

    As far as criticizing the body styles of Infiniti's lineup, you do realize that you are arguing on behalf of the '04/'05/'06 BMW 5 Series (a vehicle that has itself been deemed to be cursed with Fugliness by many a reviewer and BMW loyalist alike), do you not? OK, just checking.

    Besides, that observation is purely subjective, and a bit overdone (I personally like the bodies of both the M and the 5). Fugly? C'mon, lets save the best zingers for the worst lookers...surely the M doesn't make that list in most people's opinions - judging by the press and the public alike.

    Bland? Perhaps. Fugly? B-tch please. J/K. And for future usage, I'm pretty sure the word is "bowels". Could be wrong though.

    About that press: If by "Japanese loyalists" you mean the writers and editors of pretty much every single major auto review out there, then yeah, what a bunch of "Japanese loyalists." Hmm.

    Oh, and about that 5 series interior, lets just leave it at 'dreadful', or, 'excruciatingly bland' and call it a day.

    I think jrock makes a good point in the final paragraph of his last post, so much so that I'll just "ditto" it.

    And - why all the vitriol towards Infiniti? Did one dent the fender on your Bimmer or something? Thanks for the humorous posts.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    You guys are welcome to step in and defend Infiniti, but theres honestly not much of a point against kdshapiro and apparently this guy as well. The '97-04 5 series ruled the segment. The most fanatic of the BMW fanatics like to pretend that the new car stepped to the challenge. It didnt. The new 530i has been tested by a few major automags, and it didnt just lose, it lost BAD. To the PREVIOUS Audi A6 2.7T. The previous 5 beat that very same car with two tires removed and the parking brake on. I think that says it all right there.

    This time, BMW didnt even make a podium finish.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Member Posts: 54
    The AWD in the 330xi adds 170 pounds to the 330i.

    Okay, fair enough.

    A loaded Avalon weighs 110 pounds more than a base Avalon, per Toyota specs. It's not that hard to extrapolate from that knowledge that a fully loaded 530xi will weigh about 270 pounds more than a base 530i.

    But we aren't talking about the Avalon here. You can't just assume that because the loaded Avalon weighs 110 lbs more than base that the same will apply to the 5. In fact, looking through the Avalon options I can see where all that extra weight comes from: "Power tilt/slide glass moonroof with sliding sunshade and indirect lighting." The 5 series has a moon roof already tallied into its curb weight. BMW options like the HUD, Navigation and Premium Sound aren't going to amount to 100 pounds no matter how you cut it... simple as that.

    The M35 tops the 530i in terms of acceleration, room, features, interior quality, interior design, and ergonomics. I like both the 5's and the M's exterior design.

    The M35's acceleration lead versus the 530i will vanish when BMW unleashes its new engine. Interior quality is only marginally better than the tacky G35 and definitely not anything to brag about. Features? What features does the M have that the 5 does not? I can think of several features that the M lacks.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Member Posts: 54
    you are arguing on behalf of the '04/'05/'06 BMW 5 Series (a vehicle that has itself been deemed to be cursed with Fugliness by many a reviewer and BMW loyalist alike), do you not? OK, just checking.

    I never said that the E60 5 series was the beauty queen of this segment. I've warmed up to the design of the 5 somewhat, but I still think that the E and A6 are much better looking cars. All I'm saying is that, in my mind, the M is the worst looking car in this group. Even the notoriously bland GS has more class.

    Fugly? C'mon, lets save the best zingers for the worst lookers...surely the M doesn't make that list in most people's opinions - judging by the press and the public alike.

    Well the M certainly isn't a looker as far as I'm concerned. It really doesn't make much sense... People worship Infiniti for their radical and futuristic designs. BMW releases its radical new 5 and everyone takes a collective gasp. I'm not saying that the new 5 and 7 are good looking per say, but to argue that Infiniti is the epitome of beauty and BMW ugly is simply a double standard.

    About that press: If by "Japanese loyalists" you mean the writers and editors of pretty much every single major auto review out there, then yeah, what a bunch of "Japanese loyalists." Hmm.

    Have you ever used I-Drive? My guess would be no. People refuse to even give it a chance because the press has laid down such a heavy hand. Automotive publications spend so much time bashing the perils of I-Drive that they ignore any positive aspects and ingrain "I-Drive = Devil" into the public's mind. The reality is I-Drive was revolutionary, and now everyone is adopting it in one form or another; just look at Acura and Audi. I really feel sorry for all the people confused by the I-Drive system... it's so simple to operate that any 5 year old could do it. People who think that Lexus is more user friendly because of nifty color schemes have issues.

    Oh, and about that 5 series interior, lets just leave it at 'dreadful', or, 'excruciatingly bland' and call it a day.

    Modern? Yes. Radical? Yes. Bland? Far from it.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The 530i optioned like an RL will require:

    Heated seats
    Premium sound system
    CD changer
    Adaptive xenon lights
    Navigation
    Satellite radio

    Those things will add up close to 100 pounds. It's not as simple as adding a component. The amount of wiring that goes into adding these electronic gizmos is a LOT. In any case, 50 pounds, 100 pounds, doesn't matter.

    And I've already said that the weight balance of the RL is terrible.

    "The M35's acceleration lead versus the 530i will vanish when BMW unleashes its new engine."

    The 2006 530i may be able to match it with the manual, but not with the auto.

    "Interior quality is only marginally better than the tacky G35 and definitely not anything to brag about."

    The M35 edges the 5 in terms of interior quality. Obviously, you beg to differ.

    "What features does the M have that the 5 does not?"

    Voice control, superior navigation, single-feed in dash CD changer, 5.1 surround, bluetooth, power reclining rear seats, DVD player for both front and rear passengers, lane departure warning...

    Of course, the 5 has several things that the M lacks. I just prefer the M's exclusive features to the 5's.

    I don't see the M as the be-all and end-all of cars. Far from it. I have some gripes against it as well.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "to argue that Infiniti is the epitome of beauty and BMW ugly is simply a double standard."

    WHAT??? It's not a double standard, it's a subjective preference. I see nothing "double standard" about feeling that the M35 is beautiful and the 5 ugly, although I personally don't think that the 5 is ugly.

    My wife feels that the 5 is ugly and the M is good-looking. It's her preference, not a double standard.
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