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Luxury Performance Sedans
With the upcoming new Acura RL, Audi A6, Infiniti M, Lexus GS, as well as mainstays MB E and BMW 5, this segment seems poised to heat up. We could use this board to talk about these and other cars in this segment.
*Moderator: I could only add this discussion to the M45, RL, and 5 Series boards. If you could add it to the MB E, Audi A6, and Lexus GS boards, that would be great.
*Moderator: I could only add this discussion to the M45, RL, and 5 Series boards. If you could add it to the MB E, Audi A6, and Lexus GS boards, that would be great.
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http://cars.ign.com/articles/457/457790p1.html
http://www.autosite.com/Previews/2006-lexus-gs.asp
http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=2792&cat- egoryId=1
http://www.autosite.com/Previews/2005-audi-a6.asp
http://press.nissan-global.com/EN/EVENTS/autoshow.html#NEWYORK
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmView- Id=news_view&newsId=20040406005372&newsLang=en
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1000?mid=2004040738738&mime=asc
Audi A6 - Not the styling knockout I had hoped for. Interior seems to be cluttered and not on the same level with the A8 design wise. New direct injection 3.2L V6 is nice, but the 4.2L V8 version seems to have lost the fender flares that make the current car so good looking. I'll have to wait until Oct to see the car in person to see if the new Audi Auto Union inspired grille really works on the smaller A6 body. I do like it on the A8L 6.0. Not sure if it will meet Audi's sales targets here. Future engines are rumored to include a version of the Lamborghini Gallardo's V10 and of course a S6/RS6 is inevitable. Reliability improvements needed.
BMW 5-Series - It has been said many time and many ways...the styling of this car is either a love/hate thing. Surprise(!) I happen to like it. What I don't like is the interior; they went backwards (imo). The traditional cockpit feel and design has given way to a furniture or club room look. Me no like. Of particular note is how the door grab handles line up with the dash when the doors are closed, a very clumsy design detail. The car seems to still be the dynamic leader, but the design details kept it from being a Car and Driver 10Best for 2004, a big deal imo as they loved the previous car. A pair of new inline sixes are due for 2005-06' I suspect as 184 and 225hp won't cut it in this segment after all these new more powerful competitors arrive this fall. The 545i already has what is considered the best V8 in the luxury car segment so no changes needed there.
Mercedes-Benz E-Class - the sales leader in this country and just about every other country around the world. Why? Variety. New diesel model (E320 CDI) for 2005. Eventually the E320 will become the E350 sporting the new 268hp V6 from the new SLK350. A new 4.6L 340-355hp V8 is also due to replace the 302hp E500 model sometime in 2005, probably as a 2006 model. This is the least controversial of the three German cars in this segment and I think this is an advantage, there is nothing unusual to explain or get used to here, just timeless classic styling inside and out. Reliability improvements needed! My personal favorite of this class in case you didn't know.
Acura RL - the current model is about as dead as car can be in this segment. Anyway at least on paper the new car seems to have all the 6-cylinder cars in this segment covered: 300hp and a new type of awd system, sounds juicy. Just going by the pics released today, the car looks like a giant Accord, even more so than the new TL. As per all the Japanese cars reliability is the strong point design is the weak point. Can't wait to see the first road test! No V8 or rwd from Acura so forget it folks.
Lexus GS - not even close to the LF-S concept shown right before its release. Typical Lexus quality and features are strong points. The styling however is nothing more than previous GS warmed over and made even more ungainly. Really interested in getting the details on the new V6 in the GS300. It is not based on any other Toyota V6 design and it only displaces 3.0 liters which tells me it will be closer to a Honda Vtec V6 in revving/power delivery characteristics, not your typical Camry/ES V6. I suspect before long the V8 GS430 will get a new more powerful V8 too. I still don't think this car will ever catch the E-Class or 5-Series.
Infiniti M35/45 - a hot new entry, as the current car is in the 99Cents bin with the current RL, despite class-leading V8 power. The new car is a total about face in looks inside and especially out. If it doesn't fall victim to Infiniti's patchy marketing and is priced right this car should bring some upper-middle buyers into the Infiniti showroom. Being based on the FM platform expect BMW 5-Series level or better handling.
Jaguar S-Type - a car that has aged a lot considering it was just introduced for 2000. The 2003 facelift was a revelation and for 2005 there is nothing really "new" except for a few cosmetic changes. The next S-Type is still a few years off it seems. A stylish car that doesn't seem to be that competitive with this segment.
I can't wait to see a comparo with all these cars!
M
Thanks to Merc1 for the nice overview I just added one model the Cadillac STS and my impressions.
Audi A6 - The new face/grille is interesting. It will probably look better in person. IMHO the interior style leader bar none. Sheding some Lb's,upgraded power and suspension will help.
Wagons are nice but the MB E-500 sedan and wagon are something else. RS6 should be kept nad RS8 needs to come down in price. Hope reliability improves.
BMW 5-Series - No BMW hate here. Nice cars but you pay dearly. The 530i power specs seem low in comparison to others in segment, but thats what the 545i is for. The increase in size for the wagons is welcome.
Cadillac STS - The just announced base engine is too small 3.6L V6 - 255hp/252trq. I am sure the Northsar V8 either 275hp or 325hp DTS will be nice. Hope the handling is in line with the CTS, reports are that it will be a good handler. Nice sized just above E-Class and 5 series. If build quality is =/> the recent Deville than it should be nice. Before you dog BQ I have a 99 Deville that has never spent one day in the shop except for oil changes, bet you coudln't say that for the other luxury makes.
Mercedes-Benz E-Class - Nice styling on the new E-Class. Like Merc1 says every concievable model, plus the AMG models. The E-500 is awesome, the wagon, the AMG wow. Junior Exec about to get the boards big nod type car. Overall super nice, but need a liitle more sport in the models outside the AMG's.
Acura RL - Upgrade is needed and welcome. Honda can put together a winner whenever it decides to. I am sure the RL with the new new V6 300hp engine & AWD system and other Hi-Tech gear will be sweet. Like merc1 says "the car looks like a giant Accord, even more so than the new TL. As per all the Japanese cars reliability is the strong point design is the weak point. Can't wait to see the first road test! No V8 or rwd from Acura so forget it folks."
Lexus GS - Nice but not my style. If the driving dynamics are tuned to the sporty side these could be super nice cars. I don't mind the looks but it is the numbing driver experience that fails it for me.
Infiniti M35/45 - The New York Autoshow concept looks hot. If upgraded interior & handling mathes already top notch engine, then wow. The threat of the AWD GT-R added to the lineup will be something. Infiniti needs to market this car as the Grand tourer as capable as the German makes.
Jaguar S-Type - IMHO a great looking car, particularly with sport package of lowered stance and larger wheels. The S-Type R is sweet, the perfect grand tourer for me. I flat like the Jaguar aesthetic though. Needs an upgrade to more sport tuned handling (Broken record) and I think this car could be tops. It's generally priced right though.
The quality of the interior seems promising as well, although we'd have to see the production car in person.
So far, I guess my favorites in the $40K range is the E90, at $50K is the CTS-V and at $60K the 545i.
It is too bad that the upcoming M45 and GS do not come with a manual. Otherwise I'd be more interested in them.
The A4 S4 i think, is a good M3 equivalent...
The exterior is beautiful and classic looking. The interior is not simple or overdone like the ones I've seen. The diesel engine will last longer as well as get great gas mileage. I'm sure it will run with the others fine.
I was hoping that the new A6 would keep me with Audi, but too many things I saw I did not like.
Best Regards,
Shipo
My take:
RL - Classic, understated Honda styling, best v6 engine out there. If the SH-AWD lives up to the marketing, this should be a hit. I'm not so crazy about the interior, looks a little busy and crowded to me, location of the nav screen is too high IMO.
M45 - looks great interior and exterior. I just wish Nissan would smooth out their VQ engine. It's too loud and throaty for my tastes, although I understand some people like that. I think Infiniti has another hit on its hands like G35 and FX.
BMW 525 and 530 - I agree with Merc's assessments 100%. BMW needs to beef up its inline 6's with the Vanos technology from its v8. BMW has gotten on too long with the same i6 just increasing displacement ever 5 years or so by .2L. I really dislike the new 5 interior as well. The exterior is actually growing on me, but I only like the new 5 in dark colors, it looks bloated to me in lighter colors.
E class - the standard and just keeps ageing gracefully like fine wine.
GS300 - I liked the concept car look better but the actual car itself looks OK, nothing too exciting. Hopefully the v6 on this will be more powerful and it'll have better driving dynamics. If not, I'd put this car last in class. A car in this class has to have more than just reliability going for it. There's gotta be some sex appeal or fun factor.
The RL and M45 I'll have to see in person.
M
Best Regards,
Shipo
That said, the S80 is infinitely more reliable than the A6, which is one of the worst cars mechancally Audi has ever made, and they make a lot of bad cars.
"From Here to Infiniti
Nissan's luxury division is developing a coupe and convertible off the upcoming 2005 M45 sedan. The new M45 is based on the Nissan Fuga concept unveiled at the Tokyo Motor Show last fall. The Fuga is, in turrn based on the Nissan FM (G35) architecture, but it's longer and bigger than the Skyline (G35). Indications are that the Infiniti flagship coupe and convertible both will be four-seat cars and won't be ready before the 2006 model year."
I guess they're not going to waste any time going after the 6 series and CLK. Wonder if they'll make a G35 convertible as well. Bet that car will look sweet.
Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
The Altima is on a totally different fwd-biased platform (FLL??), which includes the Murano, Maxima, and Quest.
That would have to be one great platform to do both rwd (350Z) and fwd (Altima) duty at the same time.
M
http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- e=reviews&loc_code=index&content_code=03145214
Looks like Infiniti is really going for tight handling.
This is one of those controversial comparos Road and Track loves to do every once in a while.
The CTS won based on price and performance. Impressive. I'm still not impressed with the interior, but for the money against these cars they see it as a performance bargain.
The E320 came in second, but more importantly Road and Track's review of the car reads like a Mercedes-Benz product should behave. Unflappable road composure and more importantly quality of assembly inside and out, especially inside. They also remarked that for once the E320 is actually somewhat fun to drive!
The shocker has to be that the BMW 530i placed next to last. This is unprecedented with a BMW in just about any comparo in any magazine anywhere! Idrive, styling and price did the car in. They did remark that were only 2 performance cars in the test, the CTS 3.6 and 530i. However the 530i's road prowess couldn't overcome the cars' more glaring faults.
The new 5 didn't make C&D's 10Best list either this year. BMW is slipping here.
I think Road and Track has a subtle but distinct bias for Jaguars. The put the outdated XK8 over the SL500 a few months ago and now they put the S-Type over the 5-Series and A6. I don't think so.
I think they should have tested the A6 2.7t instead of the very pedestrian 3.0L model. The new A6's interior may have more features and even better build quality, but the current model has a better looking interior with much less clutter and confusion of Acura and BMW themes, like the 2005 model has.
Leave it to Road and Track to mix things up a bit. I don't think any other magazine would have tested such a diverse group of cars.
The test I'm waiting to see is when the new STS V8, E500, M45, GS430, 545i, new A6 4.2. Ditto for all the 6 cylinder versions of these cars which would include the new RL. The RL will probably win the 6-cylinder contest on price/power/performance.
M
On a serious note, BMW has to stop the cost cutting with their interiors and beef up their I6 if they're going to compete. It's still the best handling, but at some point its lack of power is going to be a problem.
Hopefully zey vil vinally bhut ze valvetronic technology from zeir v8 into zeir zstraight seex undt inclease displacement wizout incleasing zeir alvredy redikulus purayceez.
M
I think it will be hard for RL to come close to new M35. Reason: G has the better chassis than TL. Yes, Acura fans may argue over that, but for most people there's little argument over this. RL probably will have pretty much the same chassis as TL, with fwd. From AW review, looks like M chassis is significantly improved from G.
Another reason TL and RL are close in ability: they're introduced one year apart. Whereas Z/G were introduced 3, 4 years ago, now it's time for a much improved platform from Nissan.
M
wow, if nissan has already improved the FM platform that much, the new M45 might be a 5-series killer.
and once they make the next generation G35 off of the improved FM platform, we might have a true 3-series killer on our hands.
you gotta love the competition.
now if honda would only make a RWD platform, sigh.
Merc, mostly agreed there. I dont think the CTS should win out over an E320. It's "bargain" price is only half the story, leasing a E class would probably be cheaper considering how horrid Cadillac residual value is. I'm not impressed with the 5 series whatsoever. I liked the old 5 series. While I wouldnt buy one for myself, the old 540i was a fun car to take for a spin. The new car is not. C&D also slammed the 6 series in a recent comparo against a CLK55. I definitely agree though that R&T gives Jaguar more credit than they should. The XK8 shouldnt be beating ANYTHING, and I drive an XKR! This car is not just outdated, its ancient. Its underpinnings date back 30 years to the first XJS. I would've traded my '98 XK for an SL500 over my '00 XKR in a second if it wasnt for the fact that used SLs are still actually worth money. The S Type also is one of the weakest cars in the segment. In a C&D comparo, it came in like 9th or 10th place, just above a Lincoln LS (shocker there). I believe an XJ8 has also beaten the A8L in R&T, unless I'm mistaken. I generally dont like R&T that much. Sometimes there comparos are based purely on performance, with price and luxury as completely unimportant, and sometimes on supposed "value" as with this CTS winner. Which is it? I think C&D, though they are certainly not perfect, is at least more consistent.
Road and Track has somewhat of a history of far-out comparos. I don't think anyone looking at a E320 is going to buy a CTS and vice versa. One is clearly a sports sedan and the other is much more of a luxury car. I hardly think anyone looking the 300 is going to buy an 530i either. These cars are really all over the map, which is exactly the reason they picked this group I guess.
Road and Track I think likes to stir things up a little bit every now and then. Remember in 1990 the LS400 did not make their 10 Best Cars in the World list. That had everyone talking.
M
R&T likes all different cars. They've liked Jags going back to the XK-120 and earlier. Jag is a truly historic marque for R&T, having built a ton of great cars (e.g., the E-type).
M
Whether or not the LS400 deserved to be on a list of 10 best is arguable, but it was a very significant car, and probably got MT's import car of the year (back when they used to have that). I do remember M-B acting rather nonchalantly in those days about the presence of Lexus in the market, that they could never hope to hold a candle to M-B. Wrong.
Some say that Mercedes-Benz was scared to death and thus responded just 2 years later with their first-ever V8 powered E-Class, the 400E. They did respond a year before BMW did with their V8 powered 540i. Neither BMW or Mercedes was in a position to offer their full size cars with a V8 at LS400 prices. The 300SE of the day was a 52K car! Ditto for the 735i. Mercedes was however the only V8 game in town prior to Lexus with their 420 and 560SEL models, but the 560SEL in particular was twice the base price of a LS400 in 1990! Even more shocking was the LS400 sticker within a few hundred dollars of a 190E 2.6! Imagine a LS430's base price being that of a C320 today! The Germans clearly were doing whatever they pleased with the market.
Other say Mercedes laughed at the thought of Toyota doing a luxury car. I don't buy this theory now because they changed the course (pricing) of their cars dramatically from 1990-1994. For the first time ever Mercedes actually lowered prices in 1994. This was unheard of from a German luxury car maker who regularly priced their cars however they please. Reality check.
Either way the luxury car biz was forever changed. BMW had to do a V8 for the first time in years. Mercedes had to lower prices and they temporarily ran up market with the bigger and pricer than everything 1992 S-Class, with mixed results depending on who you ask. Jaguar would not be here post Lexus if it weren't for Ford. They were just like BMW, a I6 and V12 shop only. Funny thing is Acura did the same thing in 1986 and the Euros didn't even blink. Pretty fascinating when you look back at it all.
M
But the way I remember it, and the way it was reported in the press, the Q45 was the car that caused the Germans to put a V8 in their cars.
Of course, the LS400 had a much larger overall impact, but the Q45 was the one that had a larger "engine" impact.
M
I remember reading articles about Mercedes basically having a "whatever" attitude towards Lexus, as in "they're going to effect us one bit". That was the typical German arrogance of that day. That and Mercedes probably figured Toyota would go more the Acura route with basically a Legend type of car, which personally I didn't think was much of a competitor to mercedes products except to the 190 of the day.
merc1,
I don't buy this theory now because they changed the course (pricing) of their cars dramatically from 1990-1994. For the first time ever Mercedes actually lowered prices in 1994."
They didn't change course in 1990. It took 4 years for them to lower prices. Why? I think originally when the LS400 came out in 1990, they thought it wouldn't make a big sales impact and that it wouldn't take sales from their E-class/S-class. They may have also thought that the LS400 would have some initial sales success and then would die off. But they probably took notice when LS400 sales continued strong past '90 into'91, '92, '93, even though prices on the LS400 skyrocketed upwards.