Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
As a matter of fact, I just saw a clip in this week's autoweek that only 5 manufacturers in the world top 1 million a year. Nissan has just joined the ranks of GM, Ford, Toyota, and, of course, Honda.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
The new BMW's called '06's came out when?
The Audi A4 2005.5, same question.
The 2005 G's from Infiniti came out very late (like November) -- yet the 2006 M's came out in February.
I have no clue how to even suggest the right time, unless all manufacturers PROMISE from now on to make their new models come out within 30 days of each other and always in October (which means September, October or November).
Fat chance.
Sorry.
The point I am trying to make was Honda is not in a strong position in the near future because of lack of exciting product - hopefully the upcoming Civic replacement will change that.
Getting back on topic, Honda will never be seriously consider a premium luxury car until they introduce a RWD car. Selling re-badged Accords does not cut it - even if you have a sophisticated AWD system. Same problem with Audi, if you ask me. Volkswagen and Audi are a little too similar in look and feel nowadays - and that hurts Audi more then it benefits Volkswagen.
Growing up, I use to aspire to owning BMWs. Great performance at a good price. Now that I am at a point where I can afford one of their cars, I no longer see the value in them. They are overpriced just like Mercedes.
Just my opinion, of course.
Selling 1.19 million with little to no incentives is VERY different from selling them with huge discounts and incentives (i.e., at a much lower profit margin and maybe even at a loss sometimes).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I've suggested to Mark Cincinnati that I think there are far too many marquees and models available today, and there will be some significant casualties in the next 5-10 yrs. Brands like Saab, Jaguar, Buick, Pontiac, Mitsubishi, Isuzu, etc. may be entirely gone from the U.S. market due to poor mgmt and poor products. Honda won't remotely be in that league. (And to remain on topic, several of these brands sell luxury performance cars, or at least aspire to play in that league.)
Remember that Honda/Acura almost totally eschews commercial fleet sales. GM and Ford and DC and Toyota and Nissan's sale numbers are helped by the tens of thousands of cars they sell to rental fleets or company fleets every year (often at cost or less). I work for a U.S. corporation ranked in the Fortune top 15, and for 80 years we bought nothing but domestic brands for our commercial fleets. We have just started to buy hundreds of Nissan Maximas for our executives as company cars. I give Nissan credit for moves like this. Before Ghosn, Nissan was on the brink of bankruptcy!! Honda indeed needs to get more creative in their marketing, and consider selling some of their cars to commercial fleets (at the risk of taking hits in resale value).
On the luxury performance end, I do think Acura may roll out a car to sit above the RL, if the RL has at least modest success, and so far, sales numbers are decent in a very tough marketplace. 300HP is probably the most power you can squeeze out of a naturally aspirated 6, and Honda/Acura has avoided forced induction in their powertrains. I think it's just a matter of time before they roll out a V8 "flagship," but the RL is a critically important car for them to bridge that gap.
You're giving me one moth of data. That doesnt say much of anything. Accord sales for the year through march are 77,371. Last year in march they had sold 83,231. Down 7%. In 2003, they sold more than 83 thousand by March. Camry sales are up 2% compared to last march to 98,504. So they Accord is not quite nipping at Camry's heels. The Civic is doing even worse. Nissan now sells more Altima's than Honda does Civics. Civic sales through march were 59,225, compared to 73,149 last year, down 19%. Corolla absolutely spanks the Civic in sales, with 81,658, up 9% and more sales than Accord.
Remember, as I've said before, I'm not trying to say that Honda is in the position of the REALLY hurting Isuzu and Mitsubishi. They arent. Honda will act, what I was saying is I am interested to see in what they can come up with now that they have a little more competitive pressure than they are necessarily used to.
At Honda the culture is somewhat similar, but those managers seem very excited about "upcoming" product. I don't know what this means and even if I did I have signed all kinds of non-disclosrures (as if I am even near to the "secret" future stuff) and couldn't comment. Honda, however, does seem more interested in CARS and Toyota seems more interested in BUSINESS. From one perspective I admire the "car guys." I always heard what was killing GM was the non car guys (the bean counters as they are called).
Toyota is obsessed with quality -- obsessed, and I mean obsessed. Toyota is obsessed with doing quality better while reducing costs. There is not much talk about "cars" -- well once or twice they talked about the new HP that is coming to the Camry line and they are also darn proud of the current and upcoming Toyota V8's (made in America).
Honda too is obsessed with quality but it almost seems as if they are obsessed with quality from the standpoint of how the car will drive if the tolerances for joints is such and such. They want their cars to perform "perfectly" shift perfectly, etc -- to enhance the driving experience.
Now, most of these folks are US born men (an a woman or two) from these two companies -- the Toyota folks are all from small town Kentucky and the Honda folks are all from small town Ohio (but reasonably close to Columbus).
Maybe the folks in Ohio are more "car guys" and maybe the Kentucky managers are more bean counters -- and maybe this doesn't mean anything other than its just these particular people.
Both companies have "handbooks" of behavior and philosophy. Both companies are very regimented -- even the managers stand when the bell rings and go to lunch all at the same time in the corporate lunch room (and the president does too).
The Honda way SEEMS to be more focussed on the product as it relates to its customer's driving, the Toyota way SEEMS to be more focussed on making the cars "perfect" at the lowest possible price -- with only a passing nod to "driving."
I hate to say this, but probably Toyota will triumph, but Honda is "serious" competition if you believe the Toyota people's words and body language.
Just some random observations.
As you were.
Lexus is trying to be more "driver focused", but because of traiditonal Toyota think, I think its going to be a very tough road for them. Over-boosted steering, too much suspension travel, and too much electronic meddling are most likely going to continue. I dont care if you have to hold the button down for 10 seconds, hit it 20 times, or whatever, but in a car like the GS430, making the stability system mandatory when you're trying to take on BMW is just not smart. The GS430 would've gotten much less bashing from the press if the VDIM system could be disabled. More than the GS, though, the IS350 will really tell the story as to wether Clements is all bark and no bite.
It seems like Honda understands the mistakes they made moving the Civic to a Mac strut suspension. I would definitely expect the new car to get its independent underpinnings back, and it will definitely become a little more spunky and less Corolla-ish. Some more ponies is also definitely a must have. The Civic's fuel economy is great, but with the Mazda3 taking bites out of it, they could stand to lose a few mpg for some more horses. Another thing, and this is just a rant, is Honda has GOT to learn how to design a set of brakes. There is simply no excuse for an Acura RSX to goble 195 feet of road in a 70-0 stop. It just looks bad. Either get a major contract with Brembo or Wilwood, or start puting proper brakes in your cars.
In my opinion, Honda needs more and bigger trucks, it needs a car to slot above the Accord in terms of size with a Honda badge on it, it needs to make SH-AWD cost effective on models cheaper than the RL, or use VTM-4, or something to make cars like the TL AWD. Most importantly they have to suck it up and build a V8. Honda also needs to make huge marketing changes and get the Civic and possibly a new model to slot below it in terms of price to keep Scion at bay. Nissan has acted incredibly fast to deal with the Scion threat. They know that the Sentra really isnt working. The Azeal and that gorgeous Sport Coupe Concept at New York are the perfect weapons to aim directly at the tC and xA. Honda needs something like that, and fast.
Acura needs a flagship car to one-up Infiniti and Lexus. Even with the new Lexus LS around the corner, its pricing is approaching 7series / S Class. Acura has an opportunity to do what Lexus did years ago. Provide the flagship luxury sedan with a big engine (V8 or better) at a great price. Acura must do that or will suffer from being a near-luxury car maker. Its not like Honda can't build bigger engines, their F1 and Indy Car engines are some of the best V8/V10 engines in the world. They just need to detune and send them to the assembly lines. Only if it was that easy...
Toyota
265,000 employees
04 Revenues $164B
04 Net Inc $11B
Honda
131,600 employees
04 Revenues $78B
04 Net Inc $4.5B
Nissan
124,000 employees
04 Revenues $70B
04 Net Inc $4.8B
GM
324,000 employees
04 Revenues $194B
04 Net Inc $2.8B
Ford
325,000 employees
04 Revenues $172B
04 Net Inc $3.5B
Infiniti M35 (Journey/Tech Package): $47,500
BMW 530i (Premium package, Premium sound, Steptronic, Park distance control, Active cruise, Navi, Satellite radio): $58,000
MB E350 (Lighting package, Premium package, Ventilated seats, Hands-Free communication with voice control, Keyless Go, Parktronic, Satellite radio, Tire pressure monitor): $64,000
I knew that the MB and BMW sold at a premium, but I didn't realize that the gap is so large. $10,500 less than a comparable 530i and $16,500 less than the E350. The fact that the E and the 5 are still sales leaders even at those prices is pretty impressive.
Please note the following thread about Jaguars
New aluminum Jaguars
M
M
Just not sure if Jaguar can appeal to a segmented and fickle U.S. luxury marketplace, where immediate gratification, commoditization, and over-reliance on leasing rule the roost. I sure hope they can scratch their way out because the Jaguar brand really stands for something that most other brands pretend to have.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/four-wheel-drive.htm
and this:
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/bown/2004/autotech/article/0,22221,750808,00.html
and this:
http://mozart.chat.net/~jeske/unsolicitedDave/legacy/awd.html
and finally:
http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/difference_4WD_awd.html
These URL's are are links to explanation of a variety of AWD/4WD drive systems.
Some are easy to understand, some a little more techie, but all pretty good.
Audi has mated the Torsen system with some electronic assistance in the form of ASR (let's see, Anti Slip Regulation), ESP (electronic stability program) and ETC (or something that means electronic traction control.) Additional systems work in concert to provide brake assistance which increases the stopping pressure on the rotors based on the speed at which you press the brake not just the force or travel of the pedal beneath your foot.
Some of these systems used by these manufacturers are sourced from Bosch, some from Teves (sp?) and many of them behave remarkably similarly.
The current philosophy (not that I disagree with it) is to somewhat "trash" AWD systems that are FWD biased (Acura and Volvo are FWD biased, for instance), Audi's quattro sorta, kinda, a little bit, gets a pass since it, at least is nominally a 50 50 torque split. The Mercedes 4Matic and BMW's X-drive and the above mentioned system employed by Infiniti are, or at least can be truly RWD biased AWD.
I recently test drove a Volvo S60 type R -- the company brochure says the Volvo system is 95% FWD and 5% RWD unless or until power is needed to be spread out differently. I did not drive the Volvo on snow, but I did get really aggressive with it on dry pavement. I could detect no torque steer (as one can feel in an Acura TL or Audi A4 FWD for instance) and I would say the feeling was "transparent" -- I have had dozens of Audis and I can likewise state that the action of the quattro system is invisible. The Acura system is probably also transparent -- the issue that some have with the Acura is with the engine being somewhat anemic (300HP in a V6 is hardly anemic, but I understand the gripe). The Infiniti and the two RWD biased Germans seem to be the editors faves -- but their highly tuned bottoms must be able to detect that slight RWD sensation better than mine.
I just ordered an Infiniti M35x FWIW and currently have two Audi quattros in my garage. My daily driver is an allroad with a 6 speed manual and a 250 HP 258 pound feet of torque at 1850RPM engine -- I know it is nominally a 50 50 split, but -- if I'm lyin' I'm dyin' -- I couldn't tell it was not RWD biased if my life depended on it. Likewise the new M35x which I have now extensively test driven cannot be, by my bum, felt to be "RWD" biased.
What I notice about the Audi cars is that they are nose heavy and can be pushed into understeer (but I think most people would be hard pressed to create this condition during normal and even super normal daily drives.)
The current crop of AWD system used day in and day out are all snow worthy, but more importantly coupled with good suspensions these things are even better in the dry because of these drive trains.
I would urge you to test the cars in question -- thoroughly. Then test them again and again until you get the feel you like from a particular car -- then all things being "similar" (price, color, options, etc) get THAT one.
This may make some here want to argue, but -- Audi has been doing AWD cars for 25 years. The other guys are still, to a lesser or greater extent, still in their learning curves.
As far as I am concerned AWD is THE ONLY way to go -- and it has very little to do with snow and everything to do with performance, fun, control and safety (and probably in that order, too).
Drive it like you live.
I agree that Quattro is the veteran of the group, but ATTESA is not exactly a spring chicken. Its been used in the Skyline GT-R for quite a long time. The GS's system is also directly related to the one in the RX that has been around for awhile. The only real "new guy" is SH-AWD, and I've heard of some possible problems.
It requires "schoolin'" but it was second nature after two days of training. My wife to this day, loves to make her Audi "power slide" as the instructors called it.
Audis, I have learned, have been under rated in terms of their prowess -- I can only imagine what Audis will be like with the engines moved backwards a couple more inches, the batteries moved to the rear and quattro made to be slightly RWD biased (coming soon if you believe the rumor mill).
I understand that "the latest generation of Audi’s permanent four-wheel drive featured for the first time in the RS 4 offers asymmetric/dynamic torque distribution and a self-locking Torsen centre differential". If previous Quattro systems can vary torque rather than just being 50\50 all the time, how is this new system different?
M
Here goes: "The new quattro system, though changing to the new 40/60 front/rear fixed torque bias for normal dry-road driving, still will retain the quattro design’s primary feature: the ability to apportion the optimum amount of torque between the front and rear axles when wheels lose traction.
The ability to apportion a variable amount of drive torque to either axle in reduced-traction conditions is enabled by the Torsen-design center differential, which has been the heart of the all-mechanical quattro system since Audi adopted the technology in 1987."
Quoted from WardsAuto 25 February 2005.
I'd have to go with the Lexus GS300 if it was my money and then get a set of winter wheels and tires delivered from the Tirerack or some similar store.
Capt. Phil
North of Baghdad with no snow in sight.
Just one thing, if the G35, FX, and the residuals of the M are any indication, the M35/45 will have great resale values.
Overall the Infiniti G has done a remarkable turn around in residuals compared to the general past of the brand, both infinity & nissan.
ksso
Spoilsport Sedans
On another topic:
I hate to even wonder this (I have English parents) but does anyone out there think that Jaguar has a fighting chance against these new sedans? The S and X type are not competitive in any class and the XJ is really not holding its own even with the new Al body. Quality has just never caught up and if you say "I own a Jag" people look quizzically at you and ask "Aren't there loads of problems with that thing"?
If we lost Jaguar, Saab, Volvo and Audi in the US market, would anyone care? It's more like a Darwinian question but all these makes seem to have lost out and they are being kept in the system through unnatural selection. VW's attempt to gain entry into the luxury sedan market was met the way we all thought it would be met, a swift blow to the head. Did natural selection bring about the iDrive in the BMW or was that forced evolution? Why is it so hard to get the manufacturers to offer a diesel engine in some of these cars now that gas is so expensive? They have the engines already. We see all kinds of vehicles here in Iraq with diesel engines including Ford Ranger pickups. The US could do with some of the better diesel engines in the sedan offerings.
I have lots of time to wonder these things when we have slow days with few US or Coalition wounded.
Later
Capt. Phil
I see so few Jaguars and Saabs (especially Jaguars) that it is remarkable to actually see one. I have commented that Jaguar will "pay you" to lease one of their "X" cars currently.
I went to the auto show in February and the Saab display was THE MOST pitiful thing in the whole show.
Saab and Jaguar wouldn't be missed here; their sales are poor and they are big money losers for both GM and Ford. The main function of Jaguar, it seems, is to come in last when the car mags do any multi-car rating of luxury performance vehicles. I think Ford recently said that one model will be retained unchanged for another 4 years, which will make it 10 years old. Ridiculous. Ford has no money.
Volvo is actually doing fairly well as it's acquiring a performance as well as a safety image. They just added a V-8, I beleive, built by, is it Yamaha? Their styling is improving since they began thinking out of the box, so to speak.
On diesels, I think I read that BMW is going to import diesels here in the next couple of years. Diesels will be a hard sell here, thanks mainly to Detroit (mainly GM, I think) that introduced diesels here in the 70s that were smelly, smoky, and problem-plagued. That turned off a generation of American buyers.
The aluminum XJ has been reliable. Jaguar's 4.2 liter V-8 doesn't have the potential timing chain tensioner or nikasil problems of the old 4.0 liter V-8 Car & Driver had a long-term 2004 Jaguar XJR and they picked it up in the summer of 2003, a few months after production started. They had only two problems. The XJR will outperform even the revised 2006 BMW 750i, the Audi A8, the MB S430/S500, and the VW Phaeton.
The XJ was compared with some other luxury sedans recently in a car magazine. They should have tested a Super V8, the flagship XJ, because an S500 was optioned to over $85,000.
You should drive an new XJ before saying it isn't competitive. Check out the "New Aluminum Jaguars" thread.
Also, the next Jaguar XK will use the new XJ's aluminum chassis. It will have to comply with new European pedestrian safety regulations.
Car & Driver's long-term XJR
Just curious.
The next Jaguar XK will use the new XJ's aluminum chassis which will spread costs. The next Jaguar XK will have to comply with new European pedestrian safety regulations. The 2005 Jaguar Super V8, the flagship XJ, weighs over 800 pounds less than a BMW 760Li.
2004 XJ8 finishes second in comparo
Americans generally don't like diesels.
Propelled by hot new A4 and A6 models, Audi was the big winner in the first quarter of 2005 — at a time when Mercedes-Benz was suffering quality problems and BMW saw sales depressed while it was going through a model change on its bread-and-butter 3 Series."
---------
Surprising, the A4 and the A6 don't do nearly as well here in the States.
Volvo is in much better shape. They along with Mazda in terms of Ford's "foreign properties" are actually doing reasonably well. Also, unlike Saab, they havent lost their soul. The old S40 was developed with Mitsubishi, and was no great loss. Even though the new one is half Mazda3, there really isnt a better small car platform out there to use. Volvo's engines are their own, and they are better than anything Ford has. The T6 makes 268hp. Even with Jag modified heads, the Duratec cant push past 230 or so. The next S60 is going to use a new platform called P1X, developed by Volvo. Ford made mistake after mistake with Jaguar, but they've handled Mazda and Volvo very well. Instead of gutting them and making them into another Isuzu, Ford is actually using Mazda and Volvo parts in THEIR cars. Volvo's future plans are to increase their volume with a new small car to slot below the S40. Wether its going to work, I dont know, but they are one of the bright spots in PAG.
The problems with diesel here in the states are 1. our diesel contains a lot of sulfur and cant pass emmissions in several states. 2. diesel costs as much as premium. When we get "clean diesel" around '06 or so, the amount of diesel options may increase. Honda is apparently at work on a diesel for the US market.
about Jaguar
Yeah, it sure is a mistake to make an aluminum luxury car.
Have you noticed how heavy cars are getting today? It hurts handling, mpg, and overall performance. The 2005 Jaguar Super V8 weighs over 800 pounds less than a BMW 760Li. The XJR will outperform the revised BMW 750i.
Have you driven a new Jaguar XJ?
As to my thoughts, I test drove an M35X and Audi A6 3.2 today within an hour of each other, and here are my impressions:
If you're into gadgetry, the M35 is where it's at. The audio text capabilities, reverse camera, and DVD-audio were very cool. Nonethless, I had trouble with the Rosewood matte finish and quality of the plastics, and I'm not crazy about the shelf dash. The seats were comfortable, and there was plenty of room in the rear, considerably more than the A6. Bottom line however, is that I thought the Audi had the better interior, with a more luxurious feel and slightly better fit and finish.
As to the ride, the M has noticeably better low end torque (I believe it's about half a second quicker to 60 from what I've read?)-but I was pleasantly surprised by the A6. Based on what I've read, I assumed it would be a slug, but the difference was really pretty marginal. The M had a more throaty engine noise (unless the A6 was in Sport mode) and seemed marginally more tossable on the exit ramps and in lane maneuvres.
I find the exterior of the A6 considerably more attractive- the M35 looks a little too like a generic Japanese sedan for my taste. I do not have a problem with the Audi grille, though I would probably pop for the Euro front plate holder, and take my chances with the law:>)
One last note-the difference in salespeople at each dealership was pretty striking-the Inifiniti salesman really belonged on the Nissan lot-he had no idea how to work the voice recognition, and tried to BS his way through a few questions he couldn't answer, whereas the Audi salesperson was knowledgable and low key.
As you can probably tell from my post, I lack the intricate knowledge and furvor of those that post here with regularity. I did prefer the A6, and this surprised me, based on what I had read in the mags and on this and other boards. I suppose the bottom line is that these are both fine cars, and those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to afford a car in this price range are doubly fortunate to have so many excellent choices. I expect to be test driving the RL in the next week, and perhaps a GS after that (although I currently own a GS430, and am looking for a change).
Jaguar might be able to hang around by remaining a tiny niche player in the US market by appealing to the few that appreciate it's design philosophy, exclusivity, and requirement for deep pockets for non-warranty repairs. However, unless they have a credible entry and mid-level model, it will never be more than a tiny fish in a large pond. For years, they had Ford to prop them up, but I think those days are over.
Same story for Saab. They do have a loyal following in the Northeast U.S., but GM can't afford to be their sugar daddy any longer, so they will be on increasingly thinner ice in the next few years. Their "Saabaru" 9-2X is now selling at $5000+ discounts, and their next big thing is a rebadged Chevy TrailBlazer (think it's called the 9-7X??). Those 2 models pretty much sum up Saab's current and future heartburn. Their upcoming 9-3 "sport combi" is also rather pathetic. Marketing departments have now developed about 10 new names for the word "station wagon."
Volvo has a chance. They have more diversity in their lineup, and they can still play their reputation for safety as their trump card. But they really need a true replacement for the S80, and the S40/S60 line needs a boost although I'm not sure what exactly that would be. The XC90 is selling fairly well, probably to customers who are coming out of Volvo wagons. Volvo also sells powertrains for semi-trucks that help sustain their bottom lines.
Regarding Audi's success in Europe---although they certainly sell luxury models there, they also sell a hell of a lot of non-quattro 4-cylinder or diesel A2 and A3 models that serve as relatively plebian forms of transportation. Audi has a more complete model line from top to bottom than M-B or BMW in Europe, and with the addition of the Touareg-based Q7, their overall lineup will be impressive, especially with Skoda/Seat/Bugatti/VW/Bentley providing them with a deep and interesting bench.
Anybody see the photos of the upcoming M-B Gelaendewagen in AutoWeek? Gone is the spartan, boxy, ready-for-a-safari-or-a-war look, to be replaced by the jellybean impression from the new M and R-class.
The Audi advantage 4 years or 50,000 miles make the current Audi a pretty low risk lease. The driving experience of the Audi and M are both very desirable.
My issue my personal challenge has been European vs Japanese. It is difficult to explain if you really have no preference. But, for virtually the majority of my life, I have felt that European cars were better than all others. The current crop of cars from all over, especially the Japanese, has made me rethink this.
The good news is the current crop of cars in this class are all very good to excellent -- I can hardly imagine feeling I had "settled" with any of them.
If money were no object, I would have one Audi A6 and one Infiniti M35x and I would fully evaluate them both.
The rest of the industry moves in 5-6 year cycles now. If its taking you 10 years to get new cars out, your going to lose, plain and simple. Jag simply doesnt have the financial muscle to keep up with BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and Audi.
Audi and Volvo in particular have some pretty good cars under their respective lineups, especially Audi. I don't think Audi is in danger of having to leave the U.S. anytime soon. Ditto for Volvo.
Jaguar on the other hand has about 2-3 more years to turn things around otherwise they might be sold off or just shut down. Ford is only going to lose so much money on them before getting fed up. Land Rover should be in the clear sometime next year, and Volvo already makes money. Aston-Martin is in the middle of a turnaround also. Jaguar needs a new X-Type, which imo should be engineered on a new compact rwd platform that could also support that F-Type sports car concept they showed a few years ago. I mean Mercedes, BMW and Audi do it with the SLK, Z4 and TT don't they? Pretty much. Ford has to realize that they have to spend on Jaguar just like they have with the other PAG brands otherwise they're wasting time foolin' with Jaguar any further. The X-Type is dead and the S-Type may as well be as the sales numbers will show as this year progresses. In the past there was room for MB, BMW and the occasional Audi and the even more exclusive Jaguar. Now however in addition to the usual Euro suspects you have Lexus, Infiniti and Acura all heating things up in the lower and middle segments and Jaguar simply can't compete with their current products. I think a new rwd X-Type sedan and a sports car based off the same platform to tackle the SLK/Z4 and a new XJ based S-Type along with the new XK could give Jaguar the product it needs to live.
I know for people who prize Lexus, Acura and Infiniti brands like Jaguar, Audi and Volvo might seem pointless, but they aren't and they imo offer a refreshing alternative to the usual MB/BMW combo and the often boring Lexus/Acura offerings. Infiniti on the other hand seems to be a Japanese brand after my own heart.
M