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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • bartalk3bartalk3 Member Posts: 692
    rich545,

    I'm not picking on BMW in particular; just using the iDrive as a symbol for all the systems that have made controls more complicated and confusing than the old fashioned, switches, dials, and buttons. Beside being easy and user friendly, they have that tactile feel that screens will never have.

    On what do I base my opinion of iDrive? Well, of the dozens and dozens of reviews and articles about the current BMW 5 and 7 series, in a whole range of magazines, I have never read one favorable word about iDrive. Are all these guys wrong? And by the way, if BMW owners like the iDrive in their 5's and 7s so much, how come BMW is making it optional in their new 3 series? They couldn't be backing away from a disaster, could they?
  • turnbowmturnbowm Member Posts: 76
    bartalk3,

    You seem to keep missing the point.... BMW does provide switches and controls for commonly-used functions such as A/C (temp & blower speed), radio (volume & station select), et cetera. The added benefit of the iDrive system is that it allows the owner to "personalize" the car to suit his/her particular preferences. As an example, you can set one of two programmable switches on the steering wheel to control A/C (On/Off). You want an audible alarm when a preset speed is exceeded? No problem with iDrive. The list goes on and on.

    As for the new 3-series, iDrive is an integral part of the optional Nav system and is not available as a separate option.

    Martin
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Mark,

    I agree with most of your post # 1804. However, I feel compelled to state, as an old Macintosh user, that all this discussion on car technology seems to me like the old dispute between MS-DOS and Apple Macintosh OS. Every MS-DOS fan was against Macintoshes because these evils did not allow the user to appropriately control the machine because of the strange graphic interface, or whatever. Then came Microsoft Windows and (almost) all MS-DOS users praised this amazing evolution. This is an ever-repeating world, isn't? ;)

    José
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Thanks to iDrive I have as few and simple buttons for AC, radio-tuning, etc as liferules have thanks to MMI.

    Additionally, what I find to be very convenient for me is that iDrive has left the dash of my car clean of so many other buttons. These can be very disturbing while driving. I was upset of the increment of the number of buttons observed along dashboards of previous cars of mine. I do not want my car copkit to be like a jet cop kit. Then, I like the interior styling of the new BMW 5-Series, old-fashioned as it might be—or just because of this? Meanwhile, its driving is an unobstructed blast.

    But I understand others may prefer other things. Colores quiere la vida (approx. = colours make a better living for everyone). :)

    José
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    “As for the new 3-series, iDrive is an integral part of the optional Nav system and is not available as a separate option.”

    I don’t know how it wouldn’t be considered an option since Nav is an option. They just come together as one package. If you are talking about BMW's positioning of "Nav w/iDrive" that's a different story. I'm wondering, does anyone lament not being able to get iDrive without Nav?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    A big negative of that imo is that the dash looks incredibly plain without the 2nd hump and idrive. I got to see the new 3 in person last week and the non-drive interior is just as plain as plain can be. I mean the dash goes straight across with nothing to break up the monotony. Forget about getting one without idrive and no wood, looks like a BMW interior from years ago to me.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    All BMW interiors look plain in my opinion. Look at the Z4 vs. SLK350 for example. Or the 645 vs. CLS. Some might like the stark direction that they've gone in post Bangle BMWs, but I dont.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    The 5 & 7 have always offered more standard features than the 3. Don't forget the 3 is the entry level model. Are you saying that 5 & 7 owners don't like iDrive? If so, have you read the posts by them (us) here and on the 5 series forum? You're still basing your opinion of it on the opinions of people that have spent much more limited time in the cars than the people that own them. Again, I'll say that iDrive does not make controls more cunfusing or complicated at least to me. I guess it would be interesting to do a survey to see what the ages of people are that like iDrive and that hate it. I wonder if we'd find that younger people like it while older people don't. I'm not trying to put anyone down in any way by suggesting that. It's just that people my age (35) or younger may be more open to systems like iDrive simply because we've had computers around our whole lives. I sure as hell know that my father wouldn't have the first clue how to work iDrive and he'd have no interest in learning to use it.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The 5 & 7 have always offered more standard features than the 3. Don't forget the 3 is the entry level model. Are you saying that 5 & 7 owners don't like iDrive?

    There are plenty of owners who don’t care for iDrive, they tolerate it, just like the world tolerates all of the bs we get with Microsoft Word. Even with previous-generation BMWs such as the revered E39 5-series, there are plenty of people who don’t use, care, or even know about the OBC.

    Two years ago BMW’s official position was that iDrive would not be compromised and that all future sedans would come with. The fact that it is buried as an option with Nav in the 3-series means they have reacted to the market and have backed off. Where do we go from here? That’s up to 3-series sales with iDrive/nav if you ask me. If there is continued resistance they will change their strategy. It will morph into a control panel only and we will again see a proliferation of conventional controls which in the manner of function are ergonomically superior and also offer the aesthetics of analog form as Karmikan mentioned.

    Now, it is perfectly understandable that there are also many who DO like iDrive, but you can’t use that as an argument against its follies which are pretty much documented by the press and others with cogent opinions around here.

    And by the way Rich, don’t take it too seriously or defensively. We are in a period of transition with cars which are riding the coattails of digital technology and are on the frontiers of new mechanical technology. It is normal for opinion to be quite varied. If people criticize cars, it does not mean that they are criticizing the people who own them.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I'm not taking it too seriously or being defensive. I love the car so really that's all that matters to me. I'm just saying that despite what the press says, many owners feel differently. The current incarnation of the 7 is the best selling in the history of the model, and the 5 is selling well now too. So I doubt that all of those people are simply tolerating iDrive in their $50K to $100K plus cars. Generally, I would say that people that can afford to spend that kind of money on cars are less tolerant of things they don't like about the cars rather than more tolerant. Like any other system in the car I don't think iDrive is something you say, "Man, I'm so lucky that my car has iDrive." It's just part of the car that we chose to buy. I didn't buy my car because of or in spite of it. In fact, it really played no part in my decision. It just seems to me like a lot of people made up their minds to hate iDrive regardless of it's functionality. They just don't want a computer in their cars (or I should say computer interface). It's fine if that's the case. Everyone is welcome to have their own opinion. But to say it is distracting to use without even driving the car means that all you're doing is listening to some media pundit's opinion when you don't even know the person. That, to me, is not a particularly informed decision. I read the reviews before looking at my car, and I still went to test drive it with an open mind. I ended up feeling that iDrive was no big deal and that the car had most of what I was looking for. So iDrive didn't play any part in the purchase. I realize that other people look at it differently.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My cousin is a successful lawyer. He is in his middle 60's. Recently he adopted a new technology -- and, I kid you not -- facsimilie (FAX). He has a fax on his desk, a fax at his house and a fax at his apartment in Venice Italy.

    More recently he discovered two new technologies "cell" phones and voice mail.

    Yesterday he called me and said he was going to start using something called e-mail.

    He actually calls email "fax" -- and he has his office manager open and print his emails for him.

    He has been fighting technology his entire life. He thinks faxes are darn near miracles and is starting to see the potential of email.

    Like I said, we are at version 1.0 of these new interfaces for cars -- I have no reason to believe they will be discontinued. Indeed I believe they will be ubiquitous, soon. I also believe they ultimately will be seen as a good thing.

    I have no particular ability at this point to critique them -- the MMI in the Audi seemed pretty easy to use and also had some stuff I wouldn't use, probably (but the same is true for Windows XP and PowerPoint and Excel and Word, too.) If you have the memory of Word Perfect and now the experience with Word -- perhaps you can relate to where we are now. Word Perfect was not even WYSIWYG initially -- yet many professionals (lawyers) and businesses (lots of companies) loved WP for its ability to make companies more productive.

    Right now the Human Macnine interfaces pretty much are "just getting started." It is not likely that they will be pulled from the market until they are better. Indeed they will get better by putting them on the market at version 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 2.0 and so on.

    I find it annoying that on my 2003 Audi, I have to take the car to the dealer to set the "automatic" door locks and remote window up/down feature. I have three menus on my primitive Audi, and they would be better if they were integrated (I have my main menu, my navigation menu and my radio menu -- they are three buttons, some functions seem to be overlapping and I would prefer one central location -- but it is, after all a 2003 car and I have not been put out, much, by the menu system or the lack of control that I have over the car's functions (like the door locks, for example).

    Much ado, much ado.

    I say bring on the next generation MMI's the sooner the better.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Okay, we've now beaten this old horse to smithereens. It looks like a dried up piece of jerky on the floor right now.

    Rest assured, BMW already knows how their customers feel about i-Drive. They've completed rounds of focus groups, surveys, and outreach to determine their future course. They've talked to different demographics, including gender, age, and U.S. vs. global customers. Rather than continue to speculate and to opine, let's move on to other topics.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I'm up for that!
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    That's good with me. While we're at it, the German vs. Japanese argment is getting pretty crispy as well.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Shucks, and I was just finishing off a 5-ream iDrive thesis that would have crashed the servers. You mean you guys don't want to read it? After I went through a twelve-pack of Visine poring over Mark's and Lexusguy's War-and-Peace posts for the past two months, fighting off an incredible urge to go out and buy the died-and-went-to-heaven Infiniti M?

    Kidding, we move forward ;-)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Hehe, you'll live.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    While I, too, agree that the argument is old, I am still thankful that we can even have this discussion. When we can no longer argue one over the other, then it might feel that everything is vanilla (nothing against vanilla, but you know what I mean). To say a Japanese car has a Teutonic feel is high praise. To say a German car has the reliability of a Lexus is also high praise. I dread the day that BMW sells a reliable "soft and squishy" (it'll never happen) or Lexus sells a true sports sedan with a spartan interior (again, doubtful). Everything is opinion only, anyway. We can hope that they converge (somewhat) at the reliable, luxurious, sports sedan (throw in economical, practical, and bargain-priced--Ha!).
  • commofficercommofficer Member Posts: 50
    I know we have already discussed this a little but I thought the article was interesting and since it came from across the pond its a nice read from a non-American point of view. It's from EVO magazine.

    http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/driven/55720/cadillac_ctsv.html

    Here is there summation:

    "It will be interesting to see how the car behaves in the UK but I'm confident the chassis tuning will work. The interior falls a little short and the styling is very 'American', but otherwise the CTS-V is a car very much in the mould of the V8-engined M5. I suspect its appeal in the UK will be more limited than it could be because no right-hand drive version is planned and it's no bargain at an expected price of around £45K. However, if Cadillac's aim was to make a sports saloon that feels like it was developed in Europe for European drivers, it has succeeded brilliantly."

    I still wouldn’t buy it but it's nice to hear that we are at least in the same ballpark as the "real" Luxury Sport Sedans.

    Capt. Phil
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Perhaps there are no American car fans that feel they can or want to participate on this Luxury Performance Sedans town-hall, perhaps there are folks who are American LPS fans but are not participating, I have no clue.

    It is somewhat strange that few or no STS, CTS/CST-v or Lincoln LS mavens have graced this space. Of course few or no Volov, Saab or Jaguar participants have been heard from either (but in the case of Saab at least -- and probably Volvo -- this is understandable).

    I think it is pretty safe to say there are 5.1 excellent cars to choose from in the LPS category -- it would be at least interesting to hear from someone who seriously considered the new STS, for instance.

    Maybe if we promised to be good --- naaa, that wouldn't be any fun.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    I wouldn't even mind if a few dealers (including from Cadillac or Lincoln) had a few things to say about the cars (rather than the buyers) they sell. If I remember correctly, the last person who claimed to be a current dealer worked for Infiniti and loathed them as well as all Japanese imports (audirules).

    I would think that dealers/salespeople would frequent these boards just to see what people are saying so that they could tailor their pitch.

    But I agree...given the number of CTS's I see out there, I am surprised to not see their owners in here.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I had planned to seriously consider the new STS based on the early press releases -- only Cadillac's bundling of options turned me off of this idea.

    I have rented several 2005 CTS's and found them, too, to be very competent and possibly players in the LPS category, or at least the near LPS category.

    I would think the CTS well optioned would be a contender if you were not dead set on a BMW 5 or Jaguar -- or unless you HAD to have AWD (like me).
  • pearlpearl Member Posts: 336
    Being in the market for a new LPS (have a 97 E39), I eagerly awaited all the new intros, especially the STS, since I hoped to "buy American". Now that I have driven both the V6 and V8 STS models, they are off my list - not bad cars, but simply not up to some of their competition (in my opinion), and much overpriced in getting some options without others (e.g. having to go full "lux boat" to get AWD seems ridiculous). I am hearing rumors that the STS is not moving very well and some dealers are already asking Cadillac for discounts/rebates. Oh well.....
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Just for the heck of it, I built a new CTS Luxury Sport version on the web with premium sound and paint and the price (and this has a STICK Shift!) was just north of $44K -- I would put that in the 3 series or A4 price class but in the size class of the LPS cars -- of course the CTS-V with its hot engine clearly jumps to $50K and is in both classes at once.

    I'll bet a CTS lux sport with the high zoot infotainment option and premium paint wouldn't be a half bad car and it would certainly be discounted based on what the Cincinnati papers are quoting.

    And, you are correct -- the STS is being heavily discounted ($7,000 in this week's papers locally in River City).
  • consult77consult77 Member Posts: 26
    The inventories of RL's seem to be building up at the dealers. Most dealers I checked in Southern California have more RL's than TL's and they appear to have sufficient TL's which sell in much larger quantities therefore they have very high levels of inventory measure in days of sales. .

    I've driven the TL and RL and the M35. I like all of them. The RL however seems to be priced much too high. Acura's are expected to be fully featured and provide better value than competing makes. Based on M35 pricing the MSRP of the existing RL should be more like $42K to $45K. There really should be a fully outfitted rear wheel drive RL for $39.9K and the existing model for say $42.9. This would put the RL at or below all competitors.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I stopped by the local Acura shop today and noticed this as well. Just on the main lot I saw at least ten RLs, and I wasnt looking very hard. Acura just priced the car too high.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Car and Driver asked "what would you spend your $55 grand on?" and the results were pretty surprising.

    Infiniti M45 Sport-19%
    Acura RL-9%
    Lexus GS430-11%
    Mercedes-Benz E350-12%
    Audi A6 4.2 Quattro-49%

    The 5 was curiously MIA. Also interesting was that most of the results CLEARLY dont represent actual sales figures. The RL is in last place, and is also last place with actual sales. The top seller E though is only 1% higher than the GS430. The wierdest though was the overwhelming responses for the A6. Clearly Audi got something right, at least with the 4.2 version of the car to the C&D crowd.
  • kfhmailkfhmail Member Posts: 199
    Maybe...

    If you look at the top of this forum/thread you will see which cars this forum was opened for. It does not list Cadillac or Lincoln. I agree that these manufacturers make luxury autos, but maybe one reason there are not many comments is because those makes are not listed.

    Personally I would prefer we stick to the M35/45 and RL and GS 300...but...
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Hmmmm....9% of the people said they would spend $55,000 for an RL. The car stickers for $6,000 less, and is selling on the open market for about $10,000 less. These 9% need to have their heads checked.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    A buyer on another forum indicated he paid $45,000+ for a new RL which is an excellent price for the car if that is true. He did indicate there was also a trade involved and they offered him a better price for his TL trade than Infiniti. Apparently he was looking at the M35X as well but stayed with Acura. Once an Acura customer...always an Acura customer.

    "Music is nothing separate from me. It is me... You'd have to remove the music surgically." -Ray Charles
  • turnbowmturnbowm Member Posts: 76
    "The 5 was curiously MIA."

    Most interesting. Even more so considering the fact that on the Edmunds.com 2004 survey, the 5-series was voted the "Most Wanted Sedan Under $45,000" by both Consumers and the Editors.

    Martin
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    There is a minor discussion about that poll in another forum. For the first couple weeks and until about 5 days ago, the M was leading with 31% and the A6 was third at 17%. Then in a matter of a day, the A6 suddenly jumped out into a huge lead. Seem fishy?
  • cybersolcybersol Member Posts: 91
    Here are Motor Trend's poll results based on their "Six Degrees of Separation Luxury Sedans" comparison.

    Total Votes: 170845
    Which luxury sedan would you buy?
    Acura RL: 1%
    Audi A6 3.2: 24%
    BMW 530i: 2%
    Cadillac STS V6: 2%
    Infiniti M35: 64%
    Jaguar S-Type 3.0: 3%

    Enjoy, cybersol
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    What would you expect? In the March, 2005 issue, Motor Trend sounded the trumpets for the Infiniti M35.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    Well, I'll weigh in on the Lincoln LS front. I follow this board to help me determine what I'll drive next, for it will certainly not be a Lincoln.

    The LS appeared to have a promising future as a Sports Sedan when it was introduced. The aluminum bits (49/51 FR weight distribution), suspension (excellent anit-dive, among other things) & braking were all originally designed to compete with European cars in Europe. There was even a manual, though it was offered only on the 6. The big lie was that it was going to be available on the V8 after a few years. In fact, it was eliminated altogether.

    Several things conspired to drop the LS off everyone's radar, and none of them are the vehicle itself, or how it performs. First, Lincoln (Ford) ran out of money about the time the car needed more investment to carry forward what had been begun with its introduction. In fact, the Explorer tire fiasco & aftermath bled the company white, so there was no money. The LS was supposed to do all that the Cadillac CTS has in fact done, only the LS could have done it two years sooner. . .if there had been the resources.

    Second is the dealer network. I don't think it would be possible to find a group of people less interested in a performance vehicle meant to appeal to people who love to drive. The vast majority wouldn't even stock the manual transmission, and only a few appeared to have any knowledge whatever of what the car was capable of. Most sold it as an easier-to-park Town Car for the blue-haired set.

    Then, when Ford bought Volvo & Jaguar, there was no need to market the LS overseas, or anywhere else, for that matter. The LS had a very effective TV commercial when it was introduced, but that was the last it was ever heard from, save a few commercials a couple of years ago. Cadillac CTS commercials & other ads have been everywhere since introduction.

    The car itself has been a delight. I bought the first model year, which wasn't a particularly bright idea, but it hasn't turned out all that badly. There was an "issue" with window regulators (mostly rear) and some other nits, but no major mechanical issues whatsoever. The '03 update added variable valve timing and several hundred other less significant improvements, but who knew. . .or cared? My car has almost 80K miles on it, & I'm planning to keep it at least 2-3 more years. By then, there will be no LS, so here I am, prepared to go back to an Asian vehicle.

    Most of the people driving the LS don't have a clue what it can do, and the people not driving it don't know it exists. In fact, it won't after the '07 model year. The purpose-built RWD platform is too expensive, given the thousands of dollars that must be wrapped around every LS to move it off the lot. If the LS name continues, it'll be on a modified 500 platform, or some such.

    RIP
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    From what I've read, the LS will continue as a Lincoln version of the 500. If its as thinly veiled as the Zephyr is to the Fusion, I dont think too many people will be interested. This new LS will probably be the first car after the new Aviator to get Fords LONG awaited update to the Duratec V6. Its cousin the S-type will also move off the DEW98 platform to a cut version of the XJ's aluminum one. The platform will continue under the Mustang and that will be it, because the T-bird is headed for the scrap heap.

    The M also trounced the A6 in the C&D review. It wasnt even close. Thats what was strange, C&D's readers still overwhelmingly prefer the A6.
  • damienwgdamienwg Member Posts: 39
    I'm sorry but if I'm paying 55K for a car, everyone's going to know it.

    Benz all the way.
  • brodie77brodie77 Member Posts: 17
    I considered the STS. I liked the way it drove, especially with the magnetic ride. and the lease rates were excellent & I didn't mind buying American. I do 30,000 miles a year, and they even had a 24 mo. lease. I think the MSRP is way too high, but you expect a large discount with GM. I think this is a mistake. If the V8 1G pkg was price like the RL I think Caddy would have a winner. The interior did not impress me however.
    Then I drove the M45. Better in every way, particularly the interior. When Infiniti matched Cadillac's 24 month lease rates with 30,000 mi. per year I couldn't resist. :shades:
    BTW I did not consider any Germans because I cannot afford the down time, even with a loaner. Too many friends and relatives have paid that price. ie. my brother's E320 in the shop 9 times in 12 Mos. :(
  • bw45sportbw45sport Member Posts: 151
    BTW I did not consider any Germans because I cannot afford the down time, even with a loaner. Too many friends and relatives have paid that price. ie. my brother's E320 in the shop 9 times in 12 Mos.

    Only 9 times? Your brother must have gotten one of the more reliable Benzes that have hit our shores lately. With my ongoing SL500 fiasco can we all say :lemon: ?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    So you'd pay a lot more for a lot less car and the reason would have nothing to do with you or how the car drives at all? Just what other people think of the badge? I just cant understand that type of thinking.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I don't really think that there's much in the way of "thinking" involved at all when people buy cars just to wear them!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    People buy cars for their reasons, not your reasons.

    I continually tell people if you want to front me the money to buy my next car, then I'll buy the car you want. :P
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Member Posts: 692
    The car is undoubtedly better than its reputation among the cognoscenti. Don't underestimate the current prejudice against American and especially Lincoln. Consumer Reports has always liked it. And, if I'm not mistaken, the car is selling well. I think I noticed in the last issue of Automotive News that LS monthly sales are about equal to the GS and some of the other luxury performance vehicles. Unless I'm wrong, somebody's buying that car, but it probably isn't anybody on this board.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    "People buy cars for their reasons, not your reasons."

    Lexusguy knows that. What he and many of us don't understand is the thinking behind those reasons. To buy a car only because of who makes it is strange to us. I can understand that some people want to make a statement. But a 55K statement in one's car seems odd when you can make a statement with a Waterman pen for a couple hundred dollars. The Waterman pen will also be seen by more people that you want to impress (those that you are actually doing business with rather than passing on the road).
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Here is another interesting twist on cars and status. I have found that a lot of well educated apparently highly paid folks are darn near oblivious to cars and their costs. I would guess that someone who had any awareness of current events, culture, politics perhaps and regularly (2 - 5 years) replaced cars, would place a Mercedes in the 3rd or 4th quartile of expensive cars (the higher teh quartile the more expensive in my example).

    Yet, if the Mercedes was 100% de-badged and was placed in a lineup of other current cars, it might not be id'd by these same folks, they just don't pay much attention to cars. A lot of the folks I spend time with are in their mid + 30's and are just now having children, buying their second house and starting to earn what used to be called "real money." Most of these folks have at least one degree and some are professionals (lawyers mostly.)

    To point out my circle of friends and relatives, I am certain that their perception of Mercedes has to do with the age of the assumed driver. Young people (in MY circle, that is), regardless of their chronological age just don't drive Mercedes (the M class might be an exception & the E class convert might also pass the age test).

    So, somehow, Cadillac has started to be at the fringes of "acceptable" (vis a vis the "age thing") and Mercedes is the anti-BMW. The BMW still (amongst the folks I know) is the ranking Beauty Money Wealth car for the "under -- fill in the blank age (45?) -- crowd"

    My point is, it IS your money, spend it like you want. I cannot relate to much of any of the expense being "allocated" to impress others with the price tag. Those that know, know already. Those that don't, may be clueless and may not even care.

    My vote would be to get the car that you think will provide you with the least compromise and the maximum of whatever that certain something is that you value most: performance, looks, features, safety, content, etc.

    To each his/her own as "me mum" used to say (well, I suppose she still does, even at age 91.)
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    "...the 5-series was voted the "Most Wanted Sedan Under $45,000" by both Consumers and the Editors."

    Under 45K? Oh, they mean the 525i. "The Golden Slug".
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    "I'm sorry but if I'm paying 55K for a car, everyone's going to know it.

    Benz all the way."

    Have fun driving your stripped E-Class.

    Speaking of E Classes, a guy in an E320 followed me down the entire length of the Cross Island Parkway last night checking out the M35x. Every time he tried to get next to me to get a better look I'd let him almost get his peek of the front and then I'd just fire ahead. Then I'd let him play catch up and do it again.

    As I was exiting he had his chance to speed up next to me and pass to get his look with his head turning back like an owl. I love this car, even with the current "off the line lag" issue. :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Lexusguy knows that. What he and many of us don't understand is the thinking behind those reasons."

    I understand the thinking perfectly. People want to show off, they want to show they can afford it. They want it because they do, because it represents some value to them. They want it, that's good enough for me. I don't tell other people how to spend their money, nor second guess their spending habits.

    Nobody needs to spend $40K on car. We want to spend it. We spend it because we can. I think BMW, Mercedes, Lexus and Infiniti are real happy that people try to make a statement with an over $40K car, when perfectly acceptable alternatives can be found for much less.

    And you should be as well.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    What's wrong with a stripped E class? I would think if you were buying the car for him you might have something to say in the matter.

    Mercedes still knows their customers. I know some car buffs, they are very excited about all new car offerings. But at the end of the day, they are in their Mercedes checking out the other continents' offerings.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    Did I say that there was something "wrong" with a stripped E Class?
    I'm merely pointing out that for $55k you won't be getting any extras. I think that is accurate.

    Very defensive....K. D. Shapiro, Attorney at Law? ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    No, but there was a strong implication in your post. :confuse:
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