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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    Yes. The implication being that for $55k, you will be getting a stripped, or, if you prefer "BASE" model E Class.

    If it sounds as though I am implying that this is a "bad" thing, for myself, I am. ;)

    Personally, I would prefer more content over mere brand cachet, but that's just me.

    To each his own. S'aright? S'aright.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Absolutely 100% agreed. I know for myself I would be more content with a "base" model at $20K than at $55K or at $70K.

    Yes sir: "I'll take the basic Bentley. Hold the extras."

    To each their own.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .most folks don't have a clue how much an Infiniti, Audi, Mercedes, Cadillac costs. For some, the perception might be "oh that is only $55K!" For some, it might be "no way that's $55K." Until I started shopping and reading edmunds in earnest, I knew how much Audis cost and I had a vague general idea (from reading C&D, etc) what some of the other cars cost.

    I would hope that if $55K for a car gets one a base model they are as happy as a clam -- I don't know if I would actually know by looking if the car was $55K and mostly a base model or $62K with some extras.

    Looks are becoming more deceiving all the time. At what stage are we now -- more bling or less? Or are we at the no bling = most expensive of all?

    I was in Costco, yes, Costco and I saw, I think it was a Hyundai -- er, maybe it was a Mazda; I was waiting for my wife so I walked over to the window sticker and peeked into the car. As I recall I thought the car was decent looking -- then I saw the price (MSRP) was $14,000 and change. The thing coulda been something from Europe (and yes I knew it wasn't, it just seemed kinda Germanic -- and it was a steel grey metallic, and it had a black "leatherette?" interior.)

    It looked (to me) like it should've cost way more than $14,000.

    Then today, while coming back from lunch, I saw a "new BMW" turning into a parking lot -- as I got much closer I realized that familiar bustle butt end (that I associate with the BMW 7 and 5) was actually appended to what I assume is a new Avalon.

    I gotta get a new pair of glasses.

    So a new Avalon is what -- $30,000 or so? Beats me. If I liked BMW 5's from a 3/4 rear view, I would probably like this Avalon.

    The new Hyundai looks like a Subie, Camry, Audi marriage's offspring -- it is just getting more difficult to determine how much that new cars costs, is my point. Which means that price may or may not get lost in translation to "status."

    The pictures of the new Passat (top end, $37K) make me think it HAS to cost more than that.

    What do I know?

    I know that more and more people know less and less about the pecking order of our LPS cars (we "edmunds regulars" probably know more than my entire sub division's inhabitants combined, in that regard.)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Interesting points. I would agree that its getting harder and harder to discern what a car should cost just from looking at it. When you're looking at entry-lux, prices seem to go from around 30-45 (I'm not talking M or AMG cars here) mid-lux is 45-65, and full size lux is 65+. If a car competes in one of the above classes, chances are its price tag will fall somewhere in there. When you leave the traditional luxury catergory though, prices are all over the place. A few years ago one of the automags did a very off the wall comparison of a Mercedes C230 coupe vs. a Hyundai XG350, just to show you two wildly different cars that can be had for the same $25K.

    Look at, for example, an A8 W12, an XJ VP, a Maserati Quattroporte, and an LS430. Each represents an entirely different way of thinking from a different culture. I'm sure everybody here knows what they all cost, but what about somebody who doesnt know cars?
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    "What he and many of us don't understand is the thinking behind those reasons" was a rhetorical statement. It meant that the thinking is foreign to many of us on this board. Many of us are here because we like to discuss performance, luxury, aesthetics, etc. If we were all here because we all wanted to make a class statement, we would get very few posts because everyone would be driving a BMW or MB. No one would care that one was an AMG 55 or the other was a golden slug 525i, because they were of the right make.

    Anyway, as long as anyone who has the money can get what they want, I applaud them. It only goes to show how diverse everyone is here; that we have all the same information available to us and everyone chooses differently.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    “Looks are becoming more deceiving all the time. At what stage are we now -- more bling or less?”

    Good question and excellent topic. But let’s takes a look at the descriptors first:

    1 - BLING
    Is one of those Madison Avenue internet words. A 911 S body with butt-kicking, bolt-studded, turbo-twist wheels is the personification of “bling”. You get the idea.

    2 - BLAH
    Generally, anything made by Lexus.

    3 - BLIGHT
    Most of today’s auto designs, most of the cars in this thread, all Toyotas and BMWs.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Actually, I had to look up the cost of the Maserati. My bad.

    And by the way, designman, don't sugar-coat it. Tell us how you really feel about Lexus, BMW, and most other auto designs.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Am I emoting at levels that are inolerable? Hey, I don't know if the Quattroporte qualifies as bling, but it sure is cool as fazool. Not crazy about the interior though. That center stack kinda looks like a cathedral radio from the 30s.

    A major auto maker should lasso old man Giugiaro before he kicks off. That would provide a respite to all of this bloody blight. Word! There I go emoting again!

    ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Whew. Am I glad BMW did not put you in charge of the design department. :confuse:
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Maybe he likes the new Audi look?!?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What I meant with the XJ VP, A8 and Maser is that they all cost around the same amount of money, but you wouldnt necessarily know that by looking at them. The Maserati is the most "exotic", if exotic means that low sales are a GOOD thing. That means its price could be almost anywhere. Does that mean the Maser is the king of status? Depends on who you are talking to. Italian lovers would say of course, thats a Ferrari engine in there. The German enthusiasts on the other hand would probably raise their noses at the car because it lacks teutonic features, road feel, and HELLO there's no V12 in there. (Though supposedly one is coming). Both the Italians and Germans would give the XJ similar treatment, the engine is a FORD product with a very plebian Eaton blower also available on the old Mustang GT. German: "wheres the uber sophisticated lysolm screw type "kompressor"? Italian: That engine sounds terrible. Meanwhile, the Lexus enthusiast is wondering why these cars with questionable reliability are worth 100 grand.

    If any of that makes any sense to anyone, I'll be surprised. I'm not sure if there's a point buried in there somewhere or not.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    I enjoyed reading all the comments on this issue, since I had been thinking about the following scenario for quite some time: an alien comes to our planet and looks down and views all the cars on our highways. The alien (s/he?) is then asks to rank all the cars s/he sees from what s/he would assume is the most expensive to least expensive. So pick your own comparison: e.g., how would a Hyundai XG350 rank against a Lexus LS430? Of course, this takes out driving dynamics, "prestige" and reliability, and puts the emphasis on exterior styling, but it's interesting to consider.

    My guess is that the alien would end up assuming the larger the car, the more expensive. So that Chrysler minivan would come out way on top of that Porsche 911. Bottom line: somehow I just don't believe the alien would put every MB and BMW on top of everything else.

    So how important is Madison Avenue to our beliefs on what makes a luxury car worth the price? Is wood really better than aluminum for interior surfaces (I guess the Conestoga wagon was the height of luxury!)? Is leather really better than nylon or velour for seating surfaces in cold weather climes?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "The German enthusiasts on the other hand would probably raise their noses at the car because it lacks teutonic features, road feel, and HELLO there's no V12 in there. (Though supposedly one is coming). Both the Italians and Germans would give the XJ similar treatment, the engine is a FORD product with a very plebian Eaton blower also available on the old Mustang GT. German: "wheres the uber sophisticated lysolm screw type "kompressor"? Italian: That engine sounds terrible. Meanwhile, the Lexus enthusiast is wondering why these cars with questionable reliability are worth 100 grand."

    You said a mouthful there. I can picture a large roundtable discussion in which those very things are being said....lol!! Lexus and enthusiast in same sentence doesn't sound right, but I guess there is such a thing. It surely isn't any of those that post on the High End board, they're totally as removed as can be from being an "enthusiast" as I define the term.

    BTW, I thought the Jaguar V8 was totally seperate from Ford? We've had this discussion in the Jaguar topic on the News and Views board and they're saying its a Jag V8 not based on anything from Ford?

    M
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Just by looks, NO, and without being allowed a close look at the interior. But when it came time for the road test my guess is there would be a different story. And if the alien happened to read JDP and Consumer Reports their might even be a much different story.

    And then if the alien found his/her/its way into edmunds and then landed on this board, the alien would be forced into the Euro vs Asian camp. :sick:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    And this old hackneyed expression underscores the theme of the last couple of posts:

    Beauty is only skin deep
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    However, as the Pontiac Aztec proves:

    Beauty may be only skin deep, but ugly goes to the bone.
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    Welcome back KD Shapiro, I'm sure this discussion will get very lively with your BMW biased comments.... ;-)

    From another BMW owner who's sadly negatively biased lately... ;-)

    ksso
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .anyone got one on order? Anyone driven one (if possible?) Any thoughts about this car -- try configuring one of these BMW's, a new A6, new GS300 AWD and M35X (heck even add an E class 4Matic) as close as possible in content and performance and see if you form any opinions without driving. Then if you are able to drive one -- tell us about it.

    My BMW dealer sent me an invite (now that my wife's X3 is or soon will be "on the boat") to drive the new 330i -- I will take her up on the offer. Wonder if the 530xi is available for test? Can't tell from the BMWUSA website.
  • commofficercommofficer Member Posts: 50
    I really think the Maserati belongs in another arena all together. Does anyone remember the Biturbo? Do you know that people bought old Biturbos for the dash clock and then sold the rest of the car for scrap? I don't think the new ones are going to hold up any better in the long run. It's really just artsy crap for the artsy group.

    I don't want "Bling" to describe my car thanks. It always makes me think of the term "Pimpmobile". It wasn't a positive term and IMHO it still isn't.

    I am one of those that looks at the new GS 300 and thinks it looks good and yes it performs "pretty good". It is much better than the last generation. I really liked the first generation GS300 and have considered buying one of those just for fun. The same with the '92 series 530i/M5.

    The S55 is awesome. It is way-the-hell too expensive though, on my budget. I can't wait for the kids to both be in school so the wife can go back to work. Things look a lot more affordable on 2 incomes.

    Capt. Sandell
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Lexus and enthusiast in same sentence doesn't sound right, but I guess there is such a thing."

    Good point. Perhaps I should've said, "Lexus owner". The IS300 is really the only car that currently fits in the "enthusiast" slot.

    "BTW, I thought the Jaguar V8 was totally seperate from Ford? We've had this discussion in the Jaguar topic on the News and Views board and they're saying its a Jag V8 not based on anything from Ford?"

    Jaguar likes to say that, but the truth is that the Jag 3.0 engine is EXTREMELY close to the Duratec 3.0, and while the 4.2 doesnt share quite as many bits as the 3.0, its still very closely related to the Lincoln LS V8. Displacement is identical, and power is very close. They've replaced parts with "Jag spec" parts that are largely the same, but it allows them to say that a huge percentage of the V8 is Jaguar specific when it really isnt. The V8 Vantage shows what the engine can actually do when somebody REALLY works it over. The fact that the Jag version is THAT close to the Lincoln proves they didnt really do much of anything to it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Its a different Maserati than when they were selling sedans with Chrysler engines. The Quattroporte has gotten pretty good reviews, and both the sports car and sedan come with 4yr\50K warranties, twice as long as Ferrari. I've driven the Coupe Cambiocorsa, and its quite a car. It may not matter for long though, now that Maserati has been seperated from Ferrari and partnered with Alfa, they are going to make "lower-market" cars. Because that worked so well for them in the past.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    My friend has an 2005 S55 AMG...after he had to swap through 2, count 'em 2, 2004 S55 AMGs because of major computer problems that completely disabled Nav and audio on multiple occasions in both. The dealer gave him a brand new 2005 after the back-to-back fiascos, and it seems that all is well.

    That car is an absolute BEAST. I think it's 4.5 sec to 60mph...in a car with a backseat the size of a living room! You can't put your kids in the trunk of a 'vette...well you can but your wife might object. ;)

    For a car of that size and comfort to be THAT fast is wonderfully absurd. Yeah, the price is up there, but for those who can afford it, why not.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    "while the 4.2 doesnt share quite as many bits as the 3.0, its still very closely related to the Lincoln LS V8. Displacement is identical, and power is very close. "

    LS was never offered with the 4.2 - still 3.9.
    Nor the 6 speed automatic trans.
    - Ray
    Having just listed 2 BIG reasons the LS is not on my short list . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • bw45sportbw45sport Member Posts: 151
    Yeah, the price is up there, but for those who can afford it, why not.

    Only for the reason you stated two paragraphs earlier. It now takes Benz :lemon: 3 shots to get one car to work. When they DO work they are unbelievable machines. Good luck to your friend on number 3.

    At least they bought his back. They haven't been so kind to me.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I guess I'll have to research this myself because depending on who I ask I get wildly different answers about the Jaguar AJ-V8.

    Yes the Aston-Martin version is a real gem, 380hp naturally aspirated hp. That is within 10hp of what Jaguar gets from the same engine with a supercharged in place. Yes that is real engine tuning on the part of AM.

    Maserati has come a long way. Just recently I saw one of those Chrysler TC's "by Maserati" which was a made over LeBaron convertible. How wonderfully dreadful.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yes this is disgraceful shame. Dare I ask which Mercedes you have and what your problems have been with it?

    M
  • wannabgood1wannabgood1 Member Posts: 25
    If you want a good looking car with a nice interior that the Audi maintenance guy will enjoy with all the visits to the shop, go with Audi. If you want a great performing, reliable car with quality materials, fit and finish and that you will be able to spend time in vs. driving a loaner, go Acura, Infiniti or Lexus.
  • bw45sportbw45sport Member Posts: 151
    Yes this is disgraceful shame. Dare I ask which Mercedes you have and what your problems have been with it?

    As I laugh to myself, you certainly may ask and I'll be happy to answer.

    I've had a fondness for Mercedes automobiles and their history since I was a wee lad and was in seventh heaven when I was able to purchase my first new Mercedes sedan 20 years ago, a 300E, at the tender age of 27. I've happily continued to buy Mercedes during this time and after a drunk driver put an end to my CLK430 Coupe two years ago I took the opportunity to buy a 2003 SL500. This, IMO, is a truly beautiful car (obsidian black/ash) that is amazing in its ability to do things so easily.......when it isn't in the shop. Unfortunately, that's where it has spent a great deal of its life in the first two years.

    What types of problems have I had? Let me simply say that the list is impressive and my stack of service orders rivals the volume of paper the GAO uses to print the annual US budget. I will however, give you a brief breakdown by acronym - ESP - 3 times, ESP/BAS combo - twice, ABC - now on repair 3, SRS - 3 times ( the funny thing about these failures is that they occurred while they were attempting repair on another issue. I had not even taken the car in for an SRS problem), driver's SAM(computer control module) - twice, SAM on passenger side - twice, audio system(TeleAid, CD player, stereo) - once, no air-conditioning - once, lumbar supports on seats adjusting at their own discretion - once, and last, only because this is getting too long, scheduling a visit for the second recall on SBC (brake-by-wire). Off topic, but did you notice that SBC is missing from the upcoming S?

    Unfortunately, I live in a state that is not very consumer-friendly as it relates to lemon law. After consultation with my attorney, he suggested that the reason the dealer and Mercedes had backed out on commitments to replace my car was because there was indeed a loophole in the Nebraska lemon law in the manner of the purchase of my car from the dealer. He floated a threat at them and they responded with a commitment to defend any lawsuit vigorously because the car was not covered by lemon law. So, I enjoy looking at my SL500 while I enjoy DRIVING my M45 Sport and G35 Coupe.

    My apologies for the extended post but spewing can sometimes be cathartic.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thanks for the reply.

    All things electronic it seems. I figured you had a 2003 SL, they were the worst it seems. Along with the 2003 E-Class. Both new and full of electronicals.

    Yes the fancy brakes have been left off all future Mercedes because they're just too complex and even Bosch has backed away from the technology now. Just too complex and they've reportedly already developed all the SBC features into the good old fashioned brakes to be used from now on.

    That list is amazing and seems to be all electrical or at least things governed by electronics. I wonder what the real problem is? Connections, wiring harness? There has to be one root to all of that, besides it not being intergrated properly.

    How many miles on the car? Why not sell it?

    M
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    My father-in-law has the SL55 AMG. What a car that is!
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    My father-in-law has the SL55 AMG.

    Rich-- Now that's what my mother would have called marrying well!
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    My friend with the S55 - his brother has a 2004 SL55 convertible, and my other buddy has an '03 CL55 AMG....they laugh at our friend with the CL500...piker. LOL.

    BTW: ALL OF THEM HAVE HAD PROBLEMS WITH THESE CARS ranging from the "3rd time's a charm" S55 fiasco previously described, to numerous electrical problems, an unusually high number of blown tires and cracked rims (but I'll attribute that to 20" rims and low profile tires. The SL55's doors lock and unlock on their own and the window work when they want to.Oh, and the guy with the CL55 blew his tranny trying to get the car out of a snow drift. It was parked next to his Suburban....we gave him hell for that bonehead move. :P
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    Yes, the AMGs abound in my circle, though none are mine :(

    My friend with the S55 - his brother has a 2004 SL55 convertible, and my other buddy has an '03 CL55 AMG....they laugh at our friend with the CL500...piker. LOL.

    BTW: ALL OF THEM HAVE HAD PROBLEMS WITH THESE CARS ranging from the "3rd time's a charm" S55 fiasco previously described, to numerous electrical problems, an unusually high number of blown tires and cracked rims (but I'll attribute that to 20" rims and low profile tires driving at high speeds over NYC potholes.)

    The SL55 is a ROCKET, but it's doors lock and unlock on their own and the window work when they want to.Oh, and the guy with the CL55 blew his tranny trying to get the car out of a snow drift. It was parked next to his Suburban....we gave him hell for that bonehead move. :P
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It seems you are correct, I just assumed that as Jag increased the displacement of the AJ-V8 from 4.0 to 4.2, Lincoln would do the same, because 3.9L and 280hp is pretty uncompetitive now. Still, Lincoln LS to S-type 4.2 only gets you 14hp. Considering the .3L bump in displacement, thats not exactly a lot. Especially when Audi went from 300hp to 335 without any increase whatsoever.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .this will sober anyone up:

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_19/b3932001_mz001.htm

    Couple this article with the observation that we almost literally have no participants here who talk about Cadillac's offerings (especially the STS).

    Swallow hard.

    Then reflect on the headline "US Economy: Going Out of Business Sale?"

    I reread the purpose of this particular discussion and duly noted the lack of Cadillac in the listing of cars that would be discussed. However, the recent LPS tests in the major Car Magazines generally include the STS in the list of usual suspects.

    I for one, find the lack of participants in this forum to perhaps be due to low, low, low sales numbers for the STS AND the crazy bundling of option packages that more or less forces one to spend WAY over the base model even if all you want is AWD or Magana Ride, etc?

    I would not have felt like I would have had to hang my head or worse if the STS could have been packaged to make it even remotely attractive to someone shopping in the $45 to $55,000 range.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I'd like to think his daughter married well too though!
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    He really hasn't had many problems with his SL55. The only one I can think of is after idling for a long time it started stalling. Not sure what caused that. It's a tremendous car though. I've had the pleasure of driving it on a long trip while my father-in-law was dead asleep in the passenger seat so I got to play with it a bit. I thought my 545 was fast. But between his SL55 and my brother-in-law's Viper I might as well be riding a moped. My father-in-law was considering trading it in for the SL65, but I think he changed his mind. Must be nice to have those tough decisions huh?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Interesting article. As you've said, the STS is "on the list" just like the S-type is on the list. I just dont think the STS is good enough, especially not for the Benz level pricing they think they can get. There's just not room for "average" cars anymore. When Toyota starts asking you if you "need some help" things are SERIOUSLY wrong.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    It's scary that GM is banking on the Solstice, HHR, updated Tahoe/Yukon, and H3 to support their revival. These are all niche vehicles, or else large SUVs whose penetration/interest are on the wane. If they can't make their mark with sedans, minivans, pickups, and mid-to-upper end luxury, they are toast.

    The brand new Chevy Colorado just got hammered in a C&D comparo, finishing last of 5. (The Ridgeline won, BTW.)

    There will be intense pressure on Cadillac to maintain momentum with luxury vehicles. Don't know if they have the goods to deliver. The onus is also on the unions to be a part of the solution rather than the problem. It will be very interesting to watch in the next few years.

    I just moved a lot of my investments to the Prudent Bear and similar fixed income accounts. Is the proverbial Secular Bear about to roar over the next 2-3 year horizon? Me thinks so.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "It's scary that GM is banking on the Solstice, HHR, updated Tahoe/Yukon, and H3 to support their revival."

    They are banking on cars like the Solstice to bring in sales & dollars, but when you go and aim for a September introduction date for a convertible you have to wonder if they are purposely trying to put themselves out of business!!! I mean...who in their right mind introduces a convertible in September???
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Excellent point. And if the new Miata beats the Solstice to market, that will be a double whammy.

    And what's with the HHR. A warmed over PT Cruiser, when the excitement over the PT Cruiser faded about a year ago??

    I'm also trying to understand the exact point of the Malibu SS. My eyes are watering with pain.
  • bw45sportbw45sport Member Posts: 151
    SL500 problem.
    Why not sell it?

    Alas, that is likely the step that will follow my one last attempt to embarrass the dealer or Benz into buying it back. Though I know the picture is not going to improve, I'm not anxious to face the financial bloodbath that awaits me with a sale. With the number of 03 SL's that have gone through auction and appear for sale online, their electronic reputation precedes them.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    It's interesting now in this forum how it has moved on so quickly. This entire page is almost void of any talk about the newest luxury performance sedan. Still it always makes for fascinating reading! I noticed at the top of this page that you can rate any of the 6 cars under discussion. Has anyone done this yet?
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    It only goes to show that success within the luxury performance segment usually requires synergy and focus across a company's entire product line. Rarely can a company be good at just one thing, and expect to sustain it. Technology, styling, performance, and quality that goes into one segment often trickles up, or trickles down, into other segments.

    I did like the quote in the GM article that said "instead of deciding what they want to do, they do everything, and none of it well." It's also good to specialize and focus on doing what you do well. Talk about a tough balancing act.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Making the H3 alongside the Canyon and Colorado just to save money is probably going to haunt them for a car that's supposed to bring new blood into the hummer brand. The pickups are already underpowered thanks to the relatively useless and crude 5. That means the H3 version is going to be SEVERLY underpowered.

    As the article was saying heathcare costs are not GM's only problem. They have to make sweeping changes to the way cars are designed, built, and sold. Like Eagle and Plymouth, redundant cars and brands need to DIE. Buick should be killed, and Saab should be either sold or killed. GM could also get some cash by selling their percentage of Subaru. I think Pontiac is salvagable, but it needs dramatically more exciting cars. The Magnum and Charger are good examples of the RIGHT way to make exciting American cars. The GTO is the wrong way. What Pontiac should NOT have are boring rebadged Chevys such as the Torrent, G6, etc etc. No minivan either. THREE identical minivans is enough. Your "excitement" division doesnt need a FOURTH.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I, for one, like the pace, the change -- perhaps the reason for the continuation and growth of such forums is that they are stimulative.

    I owe or fault this and other forums for opening my eyes to something other than Audis -- time will tell what will transpire next!
  • commofficercommofficer Member Posts: 50
    Change is always good and I have no worries about us getting back on track soon.

    I have owned 5 GM vehicles from the seventies through my last one which was a '96 Saturn SL2. The Saturn was a good vehicles and my wife loved it. It was zippy and red is what she always tells me. I was happy with it but it wasn't big enough for a family who likes to travel. All the GM products I owned had the same theme running through them, cheap materials and lackadaisical dealer support. The warranty on most, if not all, GM vehicles hasn't increased since 1990 or near about that time. 3 yr 36,000 miles is not good enough but it would kill them to extend it any more than that.
    Needless to say but I wouldn't give them a dime unless they came up with a product that was as good if not better in quality and FEEL then an Accord and had a hybrid or diesel engine.

    Did you all see that Pres. Bush wants a subsidy for diesel engines? It's a little too little and too late but let's see how long it takes the American makers to bring their diesel engines over from Europe. We also have problems with the sulfur in our diesel but that can be fixed. Imagine if GM had the option available for a 3.5 liter, 250 hp diesel engine in their Pontiac Bonneville or the Envoy. It would be selling like beer at a baseball game! This is the reason they are failing to make money. They can’t adapt to the market quick enough to profit from change.

    Maxhonda99- I will have to use GM’s line of thinking to start selling my new snow plow in June and I will have the introduction in Bermuda.  Morons at the helm there.

    Lexusguy- I agree 100% and I also think Pontiac is the best for having a fighting chance. The Bonneville is a cool car IMO with the V8 and all the extra stuff. They lose some points for the warranty but they can change that.

    Phil
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    I agree with you . And who knows...someday Lexusguy may even buy an Audi. Ha Ha! How's that for the ultimate conversion? Have a good weekend...by the way, the Red Legs are here in my town for the weekend and the Brewers are going to beat them like a drum! (or not) :P
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "The Bonneville is a cool car IMO with the V8 and all the extra stuff."

    Unfortunately I'm pretty sure the Bonneville is either already dead or headed for elimination very soon. GM says there's no more market for large cars. (Translation: we dont have large cars anyone wants.) Last time I checked, Chrysler is having NO trouble selling the 300, which is quite a large car. If GM wants to compete with Chrysler's new stars, they need two critical elements, RWD, and either the LS1 or LS6 V8. The Bonneville 8 makes something like 275hp, which is great 10 years ago, but when Toyota and Nissan have 280hp V6s, its not good enough anymore.

    jjacura, if Audi ever makes a coupe or convertible in the $50-75 catergory, I would definitely consider it. An Audi sedan would be very unlikely though.
  • commofficercommofficer Member Posts: 50
    I ran the comparison here at Edmunds with the 300C and the Acura TL. It's amazing how behind the curve the Bonneville is against those two cars. It comes with a 4-Speed automatic and it's V8 with 1.6 more liters is 5 hp more than the TL's V6. No xenon headlights or stabilizer bars either.

    It's too bad though because a black V8 Bonneville, blacked out windows, rear wheel drive drive or AWD, 6-speed manual and the LS6 motor would really be a nice car. I would have to get the HUD too. It's the Tie Fighter look. :-) Price it at $32,000 like the 300C and give it the 4/ 50,000 warranty like Cadillac and you could get some competition going there. GM should also give you a direct injection diesel option if you want the look with 35 mpg and huge low end torque.

    I'm just a consumer though so why would they listen to me.

    Phil
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