Luxury Performance Sedans

kyfdx · May 2005

Don't get me wrong.. I love the 5-series... But, I think you are answering your own question about handling, when you talk about the 5-series compensating for it's weight with greater power, etc... It has something to compensate for...

Can a 5-series outhandle a 3-series? Obviously... the M5 would do it, even if it had a Singer sewing machine for an engine..

But, a 545i Sport Vs. a 325i Sport? I still stick with the 3...

Handling is hard to quantify... It isn't just about numbers, or we'd all be driving Infinitis and Lexi...

regards,
kyfdx

lexusguy · May 2005

"That didn't make the Alliance a better handling car than a Vette"

Well '80s Vettes werent exactly known for great handling. The '97 C5 sure, but before that, not so much.

kyfdx · May 2005

Uh.. you got the point, though... right?

rich545 · May 2005

Right, and the 3 has to "compensate" for it's increased mass to outhandle a Honda Civic by that logic. At least in C&D's test, the 330 SP did not beat the 530 SP. Those cars were both dressed the same way they come from the dealer. Sure, tests can vary without a doubt, but everyone was so sure that a 3 without a doubt can outhandle the 5. Clearly that's not a foregone conculsion. No, we wouldn't all be driving Lexus' and Infiniti's if it was about numbers because their numbers aren't as good (except if you're talking price). If we're talking real world, I did race an M3 coming out of Chicago and it couldn't keep up. We were going about 145 (stupid I know) and though it was straight a lot of the way we did do a fair amount of weaving. Now, maybe I'm a better or crazier driver than he was, but he was certainly trying to keep up (in fact he was the one that pulled up to me wanting to race) and he only had one passenger. I had three. So in the real world his supposed handling advantage did him no good. I agree that handling is hard to quantify, but I'd feel pretty confident racing a 325i SP anyday.

richcream · May 2005

".25/mile over 10,000 miles per year.
Is this the "smart money" over Infiniti?"

Only if you drive less than 200 miles per week.

richcream · May 2005

Was that the first time 3 of your friends handed you a group beatdown? :mad: :mad: :mad: :sick:

lexusguy · May 2005

Yeah I understand what you mean. Handling is a hard thing to determine just by numbers, except maybe if they take the cars to a race track, which isnt usually in the review. Even with the slalom course, there are some cars that do exceptionally well (such as the Acura TL) that otherwise dont handle as well as the best cars in the class.

rich545 · May 2005

Well, one of them happens to be my wife, and she beats me down everyday. Just kidding! Actually I think she may have even enjoyed it. The M3 driver pulled alongside with testosterone practically dripping from his tailpipe. He was sure he was going to dust me. Too bad for him he left with that tailpipe between his legs.

jjacura · May 2005

If that M3 was red it was probably my son coming up from O'Hare field. He's not used to driving 145MPH and his wife would probably pummel him to the floor! :P

hpowders · May 2005

"I'd feel pretty confident racing a 325 SP anyday."
Who's talking about racing? I'm talking about handling, not speed. The fact that your 545 can out-accelerate my 325 is not nor has it ever been in dispute.
I'm not sure my 325 can even reach 145mph.
For heavens sake, an LS 430 would out-race a 325.
Go to your nearest bloodsucking money factoring .00295 leech of a BMW dealership and try a BMW 3 series. Take it hard around the turns. Then try yours. Report back here what you find. If you still feel the 5 outhandles the 3, then what you maintain is probably correct. It's a subjective game.

cstiles · May 2005

I'm just glad that you didn't have to adjust your iDrive while going 145mph! :sick:

Okay, continue with your discussions...

Have y'all listened to this? It's a classic. (And no, it isn't another top secret Lexus spy video)....check this out.....

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1389458/posts

Hit the "Click Here for Audio" link.

bw45sport · May 2005

That would be about $700/mo before taxes with no down payment. I'm at $728/mo pre-tax on a loaded M45 Sport no money down.

rich545 · May 2005

I'm not really sure you're hearing me. I already said that I had a 330xi before my 545 and that I drove a 325i as a loaner. Racing IS about handling as much or more than it's about speed. I'm not talking about drag racing. I bet I know why you think your 325 outhandles the 545. You're not used to active steering. So it feels different to you which makes you think it feels worse, but it has nothing to do with holding a turn. I mean, you just read that the 530i holds on a skid pad better than the 330i, and you still don't believe it! Also, could it be possible that you just feel more comfortable around turns in a car you've had for a while rather than one you just test drove? Geez, got some anger about what BMW's cost? Hey, if you love your 325, great! Then you don't need a 5 series anyway!

hpowders · May 2005

My 325's a lease. I have to turn it in early August. I drove two 5's. Didn't care for either of 'em. The first 5 I drove was a 2003 530i which didn't have active steering. At that time BMW hadn't yet decided to bless us with this totally unnecessary addition. Found the normal steering too light. The very car that CR gushed as scoring the highest ever in their tests. Sure wish they would share their data with the rest of the world.
Anyhow, you love yours. I love mine. That's all that really matters.
And they both lived happily ever after in driving nirvana.

hpowders · May 2005

One thing you proposed is quite interesting-somewhat akin to white coat hypertension.
A state of anxiety that very well could exist when test driving an unfamiliar car which may cloud one's judgment. Being more comfortable, familiar and relaxed in one's own car affecting the test drive result in an unfamiliar vehicle.
I will definitely take this thought with me on my next test drive(2006 330i) and it will help me to better evaluate the new vehicle.

markcincinnati · May 2005

This sounds like not-smart to me.

cmybimmergo · May 2005

"A state of anxiety that very well could exist when test driving an unfamiliar car which may cloud one's judgment."

Oh, absolutely. The more unfamiliar features on the test vehicle, the less attention paid to how it handles. Sort of a forest for the trees effect. Before I bought my 5 (which is the only BMW I have ever owned), I attempted to compare the sport pkg vs non sport, but all the 5 non sports at the dealer were automatic. I've been driving only sticks for 25 years now, and the combination of auto plus the totally unfamiliar car completely threw me off. I was so busy not shifting on the curves that the only thing I noticed or remembered about the drive was that I wasn't shifting. So I went to another dealer who had both sport and non sport sticks, and then I was able to determine which I preferred.

Even little things, such as where's the button for the heat or how do I turn on the windshield wipers, can distract you enough to tarnish the experience.

jjacura · May 2005

" I'm not talking about drag racing."

I was trying to think of any road coming out of Chicago where you might be traveling 145MPH. Edens? The Kennedy? Naw...you wouldn't. I-90? I-94? Naw... The Tollway? HMMMM.
"I'm not really sure you are hearing me your honor, we weren't drag racing....really!" :sick:

merc1 · May 2005

Well there is one isolated stretch of I-90 from I-65 to the "Sky Way" portion that is pretty good for high-speed driving, but I'm not sure about 145 mph though. Its all concrete and walled off from anyone who might object.

M

rich545 · May 2005

That would have been funny, but it was that bright blue color, and it was two guys most likely in their mid-20's.

rich545 · May 2005

Oh I was being stupid to an extreme, no doubt about it. It was actually right on 290. Keep in mind, it only takes about 25 seconds to get to that speed in this car from a dead stop (and we were going about 80 when we started) and we didn't stay there very long. It was pretty late a night so there weren't many other cars on the road either. Not that any of this excuses driving so recklessly, but it was fun! You'd be amazed at how solid the 545 feels at high speeds. Anyway, not something I've repeated since then, and not something I plan on repeating. Just needed to see what the new rig was capable of. Now that I know, I'm good!

jjacura · May 2005

There is a strech of road Nebraskaguy reminded me about in the southwestern area of his home state that is flat, straight, sparsely habitated and hardly patrolled. One might consider it a Bimmer paradise. Hint! Hint!

tayl0rd · May 2005

There is a strech of road Nebraskaguy reminded me about in the southwestern area of his home state that is flat, straight, sparsely habitated ...

Wouldn't that be I-90 from stateline to stateline? :P

cdnpinhead · May 2005

I-80 runs all the way across Nebraska (455 miles).

I-90 is up in South Dakota.

The best high-speed roads are not interstates, they're the little-used US highways in rural areas. My favorites are in Nevada, but they exist all over the West & Midwest. My general rule for running at high speed (above 90) is that there shouldn't be another vehicle anywhere in sight.

lexusguy · May 2005

Montana is great for that kind of stuff. Unfortunately a guy in a 911 removed the state's "no speed limit during the day" when he was caught doing around 150 or so, but you can still drive dangerously fast through most of the state.

richcream · May 2005

How does one get caught at 150mph?

kyfdx · May 2005

Eventually.... you have to slow down.... Can't outrun a radio...

hpowders · May 2005

I got caught near Albany(Coxsackie, NY) on the way to Buffalo by a light plane working with ground patrol.
What hurt was I was keeping pace with traffic!
But I was flattered that they needed the "air force" to bring me down!

merc1 · May 2005

Well in the Chicago a few years ago a guy got caught doin 160mph on Lake Shore Driver on some type of Honda sport bike. The dumb part was that he got away but decided to repeat the same run in the opposite direction! Thats when they got him. :surprise:

M

tayl0rd · May 2005

I got caught near Albany(Coxsackie, NY)...

If that city's name is pronounced the way it looks, it's just dripping with connotations! :surprise: No pun intended.

pat · May 2005

I don't think the possible pronunciations nor the connotations are somewhere we need to go ...

marleybarr · May 2005

Hwy.50 from Fallon, Nevada 250 desolate miles to Ely, Nevada with only 2 "towns" in between, Austin, pop.375 and Eureka, pop.655., sounds like some high-speed driving could be done for limited periods of time.

jjacura · May 2005

"Hwy.50 from Fallon, Nevada 250 desolate miles to Ely, Nevada"

I remember this strech better known as "Loneliest Road"...drove it in April '66...brings a little smile tho' when I think about it. I was driving a '66 VW Beetle....not exactly the kind of machine you'd bury the throttle on! Ha Ha! Fond memories of a 24 year old having a ball driving to California to look up old army buddies.

liferules · May 2005

Not surprisingly, Lexus won, again.

Surprising were the results of marked improvement in BMW, and the fact that Audi beat out Acura and Infiniti, contrary to people's opinions that Audi's aren't as reliable as those 2 makes (M owners, don't get all in a tiff, I know the initial reliability for the M's isn't yet in the mix...). Interesting nonetheless.

http://www.jdpower.com/pdf/2005069.pdf

cdnpinhead · May 2005

A couple of the N-S state highways within NV make US 50 look busy by comparison.

From Tonopah up through Austin on 376, then 305 up to Battle Mtn, then picking up 120 North of Winnemucca on NW into Oregon provides lots of solitary driving.

But, it's all good.

cmybimmergo · May 2005

"The dumb part was that he got away but decided to repeat the same run in the opposite direction!"

You realize that if stupidity were a crime, 98% of the world would be locked up.

maxhonda99 · May 2005

The IQS study is about quality and less about reliability. I believe you can really only measure reliability over a longer term than the first 90 days of ownership, which is what the IQS measures.

take a look at the 5-year dependability studies. These studies reveal how reliable cars are.

lexusguy · May 2005

I agree with Max that the IQS study really doesnt mean too much except for cars that literally fail right off the lot. For example M-B did very well, but we wont know until these '05 cars reach the 3 year study level if Mercedes really has improved quality that much over the awful '03 and '04 cars. While Audi did well, VW apparently still has A LOT of work to do. I'll bet the Cayenne\Toureg dragged down any improvements they've made.

cmybimmergo, what a great world that would be.

cdnpinhead · May 2005

I'm with you all the way.

I'm about to begin my sixth year with my most recent car, and this is when the fun can begin. My last car was pretty decent through four years, after which it stranded me twice.

I get a chuckle (at a minimum) from people who boast about the "reliability" of the car they've had six months, or weeks. Tell me about 150 - 200K miles and/or 10 years.

By the bye, where are these "5-year dependability studies" found? They're going to tell me what I need to know. Hmmm. . .I'm guessing we're going to have to wait about six years to get anything worthwhile regarding most of the cars that are most discussed here, and I'm probably going to get an itchy trigger finger in 2-3 years.

Oh well. . .

merc1 · May 2005

You realize that if stupidity were a crime, 98% of the world would be locked up.

This is very true. The funny part is that the police here couldn't believe what their radar was telling them. They actually went to a Honda dealer to confirm that the particular bike he was riding could actually do 160mph. They didn't have a clue.

He got a 1 year suspension of his license and 30 days in jail for that little stunt. I'll try see if I can find the story.

Lexusguy,

I agree that the IQS really doesn't speak much about long-term reliability/durability, but still I'm shocked to see Acura barely clear the average. It must be those stories on other forums about the RL's awd system locking up. Mercedes' improvement here should, and I say should equal some improvement in 2008 when the 2005 cars are looked at in the dependability study. Fingers crossed.

M

bartalk3 · May 2005

Why does the media make such a fuss about J.D. Power reliability surveys? Ninety days, indeed. Ridiculous. Absurd. The best reliability data come from Consumers Union annual survey of tens of thousands of car owners across the country. Both in terms of sophisticated statistical analysis and sheer comprehensiveness, they have no equal.

(P.S. about The RL. If you read that problems board, you'll see that there have been innumerable electronics glitches and gremlins that have plagued the car since its launch).

cmybimmergo · May 2005

Wouldn't it though? Just think of all those EMPTY roads to drive...sigh. LOL

merc1, what these guys don't realize is that stupidity is not macho; it's just stupid. (But it makes for great press.)

maxhonda99 · May 2005

"Why does the media make such a fuss about J.D. Power reliability surveys? Ninety days, indeed. Ridiculous. Absurd. The best reliability data come from Consumers Union annual survey of tens of thousands of car owners across the country"

You do realize that JD Powers surveys and Consumer Reports surveys come to similar conclusions on a consistent basis?

lexusguy · May 2005

Yeah it is strange, it appears that Acura is slipping lately. CR obviously has no data on the '05 RL yet, but the '04 Acura TL's ratings aren't that great. The RL is significantly more complicated electronically than the TL, and then there's that whole untested AWD system thrown into the mix. It doesnt bode well for the RL's reliability.

turnbowm · May 2005

bartalk3,

The first 90 days of ownership applies to the J. D. Power Initial Quality Survey, NOT the Reliability Survey. Agree with you on the Consumers Union (Consumers Report) reliability data.

Martin

cybersol · May 2005

The Initial Quality Survey (IQS) is mostly about fit and finish. Is everything put together right, aligned, and rattle free initially? There are occasional complaints in the first 90 days about more serious issues, but its mostly about fit and finish.

The Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) on the other hand is about the reliability of 3 year old vehicles. This is about how well vehicles hold up over the course of a typical lease.

Both surveys give good information that rivals CR, but if you confuse the two surveys all you get is garbage. Some people should not use information without adult supervision.

Enjoy, cybersol

kdshapiro · May 2005

Some people should not use information without adult supervision.

Some people should not use this information at all.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

cstiles · May 2005

Okay, let's break this down a bit....

First of all, JD Power (and CR) deserve credit for bringing quality to the forefront. No question about that. But JD Power is also a profit center, pure and simple. Although it pretends to be an independent group of researchers in white lab coats, their revenue comes from selling its logo and rankings to companies who choose to use it in their marketing/advertising. Their methodology can change yearly to fit their agenda to sell their name and present themselves as quality "experts." McGraw Hill's recent acquisition of JD Power was purely designed to maximize M-H's bottom line revenues.

CR is slightly more pure since they accept no advertising or sell their name. But they certainly have their political and profit-driven agenda. IMO, neither is a true non-profit, and both are driven to maximize revenues. Thre's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but you have to filter their results with those realities in mind.

Interesting that JDP's #1 ranking entry luxury car is the long-in-the-tooth IS300/Sportcross. Sales for the 2005 IS300 are down -50%, and this entry level model currently represents only 4% of total Lexus sales for 2005. It's been bit of a dog for Lexus, and the new model is at least 2 years late. The Lexus website still shows the Sportcross, but I think it's next to impossible to find one today, since they have basically bombed in the marketplace. I don't deny their stellar quality, but it's interesting to me to see JD Power wave a huge quality award for a car that has basically been ignored by the market for 1-2 years, and is on its deathbed. Makes you also wonder if their quality rankings are truly apples to apples, given the huge differences in sales volume within the models listed. Their # 2 ranking car is the X-Type, and volumes have already been written about this car's problems. Makes me question JD Powers' credibility and methodology.

I also think it's loopy to rank factories based on these quality ratings. To slam a factory for poor quality, because they happen to build a poorly designed car, is disingenous and puts the blame in the wrong place. Is it really relevant to give factory A a gold medal, factory B a silver, etc., based on problems reported in the first 90 days of ownership by people who bothered to participate in a survey, or attend an evening focus group in exchange for a free dinner?

These rankings always have some element of "garbage in, garbage out."

bartalk3 · May 2005

I agree completely with you on JD Power. They are a marketing organization, and their surveys are not completely disinterested and independent. I seem to recall that at one point, anyway, they only listed those models that ranked "above average" and omitted those ranked in the lower half. The reason: not to offend anybody. That compromises their integrity, in my view.

CR, on the other hand, IS truly independent. They are not dependent on pleasing any manufacturers. Their revenue comes from reader subscriptions, not from the companies whose products they test. They do make money (which pays their employees, pays for their research facilities, and finances their publications), but they are as non-profit as you can get, i.e., their primary purpose is not to make money but to evaluate products and report their results to the public. They've been doing that since 1936. Their politcal agenda, if they have one, is consumer protection. In a world of advertising hype and rampant conflicts of interest, they are about as trustworthy as you can get.

cstiles · May 2005

Yes, I agree that CR is independent, but because of their overt alliance with "consumer protection" issues, they are in bed with many political action, lobbying, consumer interest organizations, and industry organizations, both formally and informally. CR subscribers also tend to fit certain demographics (age, education, income, political affiliation), and CR is careful to continue to maximize their revenues with this captive group.

I'm not criticizing them....they are what they are. They are best when they are testing and ranking washing machines. But lately they have flexed their muscle into political issues that run the risk of diluting their strengths. It's the old paradigm of wanting to get larger, more influential, and more successful, but there's a price to be paid in going there.

And, they ranked the BMW 5-series so highly, so they MUST be a little bit nuts (just kidding).....

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