Luxury Performance Sedans

ksoman · October 2004

Next Question: Do you know how to use CAD or have done any activity in life that involves engineering drawings, CAD, etc & the implication of CAD on the so called "platform"

ksso

lexusguy · October 2004

Whats your point? Did I have a hand in designing the Mondeo or CTS? No. But drive a CTS-V and a Jaguar X-type 3.0. Which one do YOU think handles better?

ksoman · October 2004

that makes you an expert on platforms? in an age where platforms for car makers are nothing more than a 100% morphable software CAD file?

that's all my point is. Platforms were built in the pre-CAD age of car design & building. Just because some designer for car A started off from a template of a prior Car D does not mean they necessarily share the same platform in this age of CAD based designing, uni-body construction (speaking of uni-body only), robotic manufacturing and et. al.

I hope I don't sound mean or anything, however it does not stop amusing me when we all talk (me included) of things that really are based on our gut feel rather than the real simple rules of mechanics & physics (& electronics)...

designing a car in this world is an entirely different paradimn then car's that were based off "platforms" in the earlier age. I can say so much because of my background, even if that's not what I practice today in my profession... which is miles away from engineering. I am not completely sure why manufacturers still talk of platforms, it may be purely to keep the lingo going since that is what customers have heard and are comfortable with for ages, but realistically it means little. Of course this argument may not hold for the body on rail trucks that still abound... but there are some bold moves in that department too, where trucks will start moving into uni-body construction mode...

just my 2 cents
ksso

lexusguy · October 2004

The X-type has definite traits of its Mondeo cousin. Is every part the same? No. But why do you think the car isnt RWD? It wasnt some kind of effort to compete with Audi. The use of the Mondeo platform forced FWD. X-types are actually sold that way in Europe. Jaguar adapted an AWD system, much in the same way Volvo does for the NA market, because they knew that trying to offer a FWD Jag in the US would be like a FWD BMW. It wouldnt go over to well. What we have today are broad use platforms that the auto industry slaps a few different bodies on. For example all of Nissan's "FM" cars share the same basic underpinnings. Same with Volvo's P2, GM's managerie of Greek letters, etc. In adapting P2 for the S60, Volvo cut down the size a bit, but its essentially the same thing as what sits under the S80.

designman · October 2004

in an age where platforms for car makers are nothing more than a 100% morphable software CAD file?

I'm missing your point also. Are you saying that no two cars are really the same, or tend not to be the same because of the immediacy of digital design tools?

designing a car in this world is an entirely different paradimn then car's that were based off "platforms" in the earlier age. I can say so much because of my background, even if that's not what I practice today in my profession... which is miles away from engineering.

Mind me asking what your background is? Im not looking for an argument, I just find this discussion somewhat interesting.

maxhonda99 · October 2004

The X-Type is a Mondeo underneath, and the A4 is a Passat underneath. The reason that the A4 succeeds is because Audi has offered products in A4's price range(relatively speaking) for decades. The X-type hasn't done well because typical Jaguar fans don't see a $40K Jaguar as a "real" Jaguar. Jaguar has never had a car in that price range and it will take several generations for the X-type to become successful. That is, if Ford does end up keeping the entry level Jaguar product in it's lineup.

ksoman · October 2004

I've engineering degrees in both mechanical engineering and electronics & computers (combined). I've other stuff after that, which eventually led me to a job in commercial insurance... but i did practice my trade for several years while I upgraded things...

ksso

ksoman · October 2004

"I'm missing your point also. Are you saying that no two cars are really the same, or tend not to be the same because of the immediacy of digital design tools?"

To a "fair extent", yes... of course this will increasingly start to fail as you get into the body over rail type of vehicles. But the X type is not simplistically a different body slapped on a Mondeo frame/platform.

I like you using the term "immediacy of ...". It really captures the power of today's designers using their fancy tools. They can literally pluck out different components from a library and put them together and see if they all work out or not and move on to the next configuaration in a matter of minutes or hours, unlike sometimes months or years in the previous generation.

ksso

ksoman · October 2004

Genes... Genetics.

Several excellent researches have show that more than 70% of animal behavior is influenced by societal influences and only 30% traits are genetically inherited.

Even if you thought these studies were bogus i'd still peg it at 50-50.

Anyway, just like that, the "platform" is more of a central theme in today's modern cars. Just like in my work, we use ISO standard forms to place complex commercial policies rather than cook up everything from ground. We start with an ISO form & then mold it to suit the charcter requirements of the client. The end product may not look anything like the ISO form...

give you another example. Using a standard template in word document. you start of somewhere as a template. Chances are, by the time you are done, you are miles away in content, look and feel. you just shared a platform. Content is not on the platform.

ok, i'll have to continue another time.

cheers
ksso

lexusguy · October 2004

Right, like I said before, I'm not saying every part is the same. Jaguar works over the designs and materials to an extent, but what sits under the X-type IS largely related to a Mondeo, and what sits under the S-type IS largely related to a Lincoln LS. Its the same with the Chevy Malibu\Pontiac Grand Prix\Saab 93. The Saab gets some fancier materials and tweaks, but it IS fundamentally the same bits under there. The only Jags that are on unique Jaguar platforms are the XK8, which is on a heavily modified original XJS platform, and the all new one under the '04 XJ sedan.

Take a look at the Chrysler Crossfire and Mercedes SLK (the old one). They look radically different, but the Crossfire uses something like 80% SLK parts. Its the same idea with other platform sharing. Sharing platforms with lots of different cars allows for greatly reduced costs when introducing new models. Years and years ago cars used to all have independent platforms, and that kind of business model just doesnt work anymore.

lexusguy · October 2004

Exactly, which is why the X-type ultimately failed in the market place. A Jaguar Mondeo just isnt good enough to compete with the likes of Germany. We got HUGELY off topic with all this "how platform sharing works" nonsense, but my point several pages ago was that if the X-type was given the chance to use GM's CTS "Sigma" platform, it might have been a much greater success.

That platform would have allowed for a proper Jaguar front engine, rear drive layout, would have much better handling characteristics (I dont recall the Mondeo ever being race track tested) and if Jag was a GM brand, they would have access to GM's 3.6L 255hp DOHC V6, which is the minimum they would need to make the X-type competitive in power with the rest of the $40K league. Being stuck with Ford platforms and Ford engines HAS hurt Jaguar.

ksoman · October 2004

you create several types of deserts with white-flour, chocolate, baking soda & sugar, so they all become the same thing?

i'm not going to argue, but atleast as somebody on the engineering side of the coin, i disagree with the notion of same platform nonsense in modern cars...

i won't talk about this anymore, its pointless. it is as pointless as the 10000s of car review writers & millions of car owners all talking like they can count the difference between 6 seconds and 9 seconds in real life without a stop watch in front of them...

ksso

lexusguy · October 2004

Do you work for Jaguar?

footie · October 2004

Well, I am not sure that trashing the 'platform' metaphor for cars is appropriate just because you feel it's the same as tossing cooking ingredients together.

IMHO, the "platform" metaphor indicates a manufacturer's approach to satisfying a variety of market price-feature-performance points with a common set of engine / transmssion / suspension / size capabilities as starting points. Templates is a good way of saying this, but you don't stretch the C-class MB family into Maybachs.

Sure, they can design the overall vehicles to meet differnt needs these days with CAD but its very interesting that Toyota does so well with the 3.0/3.3 Liter FWD "platform" for the Camry, Solara, Sienna, Avalon, ES330, and RX330. Here they've got the stretch within the grasp of the starting points.

These car lines all benefit from common learning in production across different supply chains in the US and Japan ( soon Europe ). The CAD programs get you the design, the factories get you the product. The learning curve is in the factory and feeds back to engineering.

What I love about this approach is that Toyota is able to produce the ES330 which is the functional, size, feature and performance equivalent of the Mercedes E320 for about $20K less to the buyer.

Me, I like the metaphor. It's a simple way to convey to folks one of the reasons that Toyota (and increasingly Honda and Nissan) build better cars for less money. It ain't just CAD programs.

designman · October 2004

You can design your butt off on the computer but it goes nowhere unless it meets the constraints of production and budgetsthe real mechanical and financial worlds as opposed to the digital world. This is why there is platform sharing and parts sharing as lexusguy mentioned.

The Porsche 911 and Boxster are nearly identical from the cabin forward and they share nearly 40% of their parts. The reason is simplebucks. The process appears to be the same with other manufacturers.

Futhermore, auto design is not as completely digital as some would think. As I understand it, the starting point is still the pad and pencil because it is still faster to communicate pure concept in this manner. Ideas go through an approval process, committees come in and screw things up, engineers say awakening things like "that's impractical, it can't be done," ideas get reworked, then when there is concurrence it goes to the computers for development and more approval. Then when they think they have something it still goes back into the conventional 3D world with clay prototypes. In the process it goes back and forth between the computers, mockup, and tons of people who weigh in on every detail.

The deeper it gets into the process the more it costs to change, so ksoman, there is not as much room for morphing as you seem to suggest. Word docs and such never have to come out of the computer, but when something is made for the physical world like cars, it cant stay in there forever. And once it comes out, even though it is not finished, the real morphing is just about over. The time for radical swings is very early in the process before the final decision makers even get to see designs.

With regard to templated cars, its part of the profit formula and I dont see this changing anytime soon. We can design our way to landing people on Mars, but try to get it approved and financed. Money is usually the mitigating factor and the computer, as incredibly productive as it is, is just another box of tools used to achieve financial goals, not quite the stuff of Hollywood imaginations where cars and other widgets are concerned. If computers were as good as some people like to think, we'd be buying Ferraris for $10K.

lexusguy · October 2004

The ES isnt even close to being the performance equivalent of an E320. But its power and drive train and handling characteristics are pretty much irrelevant to this particular conversation. The thing to note about the ES is that by using a Camry platform and roughly 40% Camry parts, Toyota is able to save enough money on the ES to offer all of the features it does have in the mid $30s. If the ES was on an independent Lexus exclusive platform, you could add at least $10K to that price tag. You'd have something like the previous Acura RL, basically. The TL uses Accord parts in the same way ES uses Camry parts, which allows Acura to offer so much for so little. Platform sharing in this form is great, as it ultimately benefits the consumer.

When platform sharing is bad, is when the parts being shared don't live up to the car they are being shared in. This is what happened with the X-type and S-type. Imagine if Toyota tried to get away with using the Camry platform on the Lexus IS300. It would be a disaster, the Camry platform just isnt suited for that kind of application. Its the exact same thing with Mondeo and X-type.

ksoman · October 2004

If everyone is so convinced, I'm not going to burst your bubble. As somebody who did practice CAD/CAM based manufacturing, I'll only say, your generalizations are incorrect. I will however avoid pushing this point or getting into a "contest" argument at this point.

ksso

riez · October 2004

lexusguy... You wrote, "Imagine if Toyota tried to get away with using the Camry platform on the Lexus IS300. It would be a disaster, the Camry platform just isnt suited for that kind of application."

Don't forget that the IS300 is based on the Toyota Altezza. You can even get the Altzza with a 2.0L engine and 6-speed manual. I know it is sold in Japan and Europe. Don't believe it is marketed there as a premium car, e.g., like a Lexus.

lexusguy · October 2004

I'm well aware that the IS300 is the Toyota Altezza. In other parts of the world where Lexus cars are sold, UK, etc. You can get the IS200 and IS300. My point was if Toyota tried to make a sports sedan like the IS on the Camry platform, it would be a joke. The Accord has enough sportiness in its genes that with a little help it can be turned into an impressive sports sedan like the TL. The Camry doesnt.

The point about the Camry platform being unsuitable for a sports sedan was what I was trying to get across with my point about the Mondeo, its just not good enough for a $40K Jaguar "sports" sedan. Same with Ford's DEW98 platform. Its fine for Thunderbird and LS, and it will be a massive leap forward for Mustang, but when your competition is BMW and Mercedes, its not good enough. This all goes back to a hypothetical situation where if GM had won the bid for Jag instead of Ford, and Jag had used GM's rear drive Sigma platform for X-type and S-type, as well as GM's superior engines, these cars might have done much better.

courtney11 · October 2004

As I am a bit dissappointed in the price I am also quite interested in the performance. I have not driven it yet and am wondering what the 0-60 is like. Being a 6 I have read it is a bit low in the torque area. Anyone know the 0-60 specs? Does it feel like a 6 ?
Anyone think waiting for the Lexus GS or Infiniti M is worth waiting for? I think so.
As for all the new technology, especially the AWD I think the extended warranty makes alot of sense. What is the price?

Any information is appreciated!!

lexusguy · October 2004

The RL's 3.5L engine makes 300hp and 260ft.lbs of torque. Fantastic numbers for a V6, I believe at the moment its the most powerful V arrangement normally aspirated 6 on the planet. 300+ ft.lbs of torque like competitors 8s are just not possible without forced induction, though.

0-60 seems to be roughly 6.5 seconds. While thats not quite as fast as the best V8s in the class at the moment, it is about the same as a 540iA, and E430. Certainly nothing to scoff at. Also keep in mind that the RL's $48K tag includes everything but the kitchen sink. Comparably equiped, thats about 10 grand below what M45 and GS430 will cost, and as much as 15 grand below 545i and E500. No competitor's V6, (except maybe M35) will be nearly as fast. Is an extra half second or so quicker really worth $10K+?

If, when you drive the RL, you feel its not sporty enough, you may want to hold off for the M35\45, which will without a doubt be a sportier car. The GS on the other hand is a big question mark at this point.

footie · October 2004

Lexusguy??? What a name for someone that might not have given enough research time to what really happens at Toyota, eh?

Isn't the ES made in Japan? Do you think they import lower quality Camry parts from the US to make it there? I don't think so.... I understand that the defect rate that Toyota sees from U.S. suppliers here is 10x what they get in Japan.

In the end, there's no such thing as a 'Camry' platform is there? It's a design point for a wide variety of vehicles and any sales guy pitching this ought to know that consumers don't relate Camry's, Siennas and 330's in the same sentence. So take this one back to the folks at MB and Ford.

The engineering behind the design of the ES330 may be shared with the Camry made here but not the parts. That's one of the reasons why the ES is a Lexus and the Camry made here is a U.S. Toyota.

You can't even talk about the E320 in a conversation about the Lexus ES or Toyota Camry. The E320 has more bugs in it that Window Me. It won't get better until Mercedes outsources production to Toyota or goes down the same learning curve we've been doing here in the U.S. for 20 years.

Yawn, yawn...

lexusguy · October 2004

I dont understand what your point is. When did I ever say that the ES is built in the US, or that its not better quality than the Camry? I know its built in Japan. The Jaguar S-type.. well it was until very recently built at Conventry in England, but its still got Ford's DEW98 platform under it. The Volvo S40 and Mazda 3 are built in very different places, but they've got the same platform. The ES330's engine, drive train, and suspension are sourced directly from the Toyota Camry.

footie · October 2004

Dear "LexusGuy"

You misue the word "sourced".

It's my understanding that the Toyota supply chain in Japan is where they get parts for the the ES, GS, LS, GX, etc. and those suppliers have a 10x lower defect than similar parts made here in the US.

So don't use the word "sourced" - it sounds too much like 'built from'. The design might be the same template, but I don't believe that they are "sourced" here.

The only Lexus parts that are made in North America are those for the RX330 which is assembled in Canada.

kyfdx · October 2004

So, the Lexus engines are ten times more reliable and less likely to be defective than the identical Camry engines made in the U.S.?

It might be your "understanding", but unless you can quote something in print, it sounds unbelievable.. or more like something a Lexus salesman might say.

ES300 aren't just built on the same platform as the Camry.. They are virtual twins.. Adding options and different bodywork does not make a completely different car..

Now, if you tell me the paint jobs on the Lexus are twice as good as the Toyota.. that, I could believe.

The thing about the Japanese Hondas and Toyotas being better built or more reliable than the North American models... pure myth.

regards,
kyfdx

lexusguy · October 2004

Actually, its not. I dont remember exactly, where, but I have read that Toyota has a lot more defects from its part suppliers in the US, and the top rated production plants in the world are all Japanese.

kyfdx · October 2004

Okay... Now, go back and re-read your last post... I think that is how myths get perpetuated.

Toyota and Honda have made their reputation in the U.S. on cars assembled in the factories in Georgetown, KY and Marysville, OH. Those two plants build some of the most reliable cars in the world.

lexusguy · October 2004

"The study also reveals that vehicles built by German and Japanese manufacturers in their native markets record higher average initial quality overall than those built in their North American plants. Vehicles produced in Germany by BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen, and those produced in Japan by Honda, Mitsubishi, Nissan and Toyota demonstrated overall higher initial quality than the vehicles built by their North American plants."

Thats a direct quoute from JDPower

kyfdx · October 2004

measures "defects" in the first 90 days only..

Unless you are on a 3 month lease, their initial quality surveys mean virtually nothing..

Not to mention that hardly any of those companies make the same vehicle in North America and in their home countries now...

Keep looking.. I'll keep an open mind.

regards,
kyfdx

lexusguy · October 2004

"One of the big issues between the United States and Japan lately has been the supplier issue in the balance of trade. There is pressure for the Japanese manufacturers to use more American suppliers. A year ago, Toyota called all its American suppliers to Japan and told them that they were highly dissatisfied with their performance; that on average, the number of defects they were finding in American-made components was 10 to 100 times greater than what they were experiencing with their Japanese suppliers."

Obtained here: http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr/93/931102Arc3066.html

kyfdx · October 2004

Great.. that is dated 11/02/93.. So, Toyota called their suppliers in a year before that..

Pretty current info.. only 12 years old.

And, put forth by a Stanford University researcher who was trying to validate a different method of counting defects than what is considered "normal".

regards,
kyfdx

lexusguy · October 2004

I dont know what you want to see, but the point is still true. Lexus' top scoring cars, LS and SC, beat their NA built counterparts in PP 100 vehicles by almost 2x.

designman · October 2004

It's pretty much common knowledge that American labor sucks. And if you need any proof, try getting repairs done on your home. Carpenters, electricians, plumbers, whatever all they want is money, there's no pride in their work.

There's a new culture developing among these high-school dropouts. They show up in jeans, boots, toting a box of tools from their pickups. Looks good. They turn a screw or two and ask for money. In the meantime they didn't do a friggin thing or make matters worse. Furthermore, there are tons of stories relating to new-construction disasters, people suing contractors for pipes exploding, foundations sagging etc. Not only do I experience it, I see others who are close to me experience it , and I read about it.

This is the same mentality that makes up the big unions, those who build our cars. I don't need JD Power or any other research company to tell me that Japanese labor is better than American labor. Any labor has to be better than American labor. And if you need any other proof go look at all these losers lining up in candy stores buying lotto tickets.

Well, the solution is simple. We'll find the enemy en' smoke em' out. Ya know, we'll jus smoke 'em out!!!

lexusguy · October 2004

Thats not really accurate. I'm not going to say we're the world's best, thats just a fantasy. However, we're not the worst either. You want a bad car, buy a Volkswagen built in Mexico. American built cars used to be horribly patheitc, back in the 70s for example, GM cars had something like 800 PP 100 vehicles. Now Buick and Cadillac rank up there in JD studies with some of the best. Lexus and Acura no, but nobody can beat them for the time being.

European labor is also not that great. Ford and Chrysler were hurt in JD statistics by Ford's PAG brands, and Mercedes-Benz electrical disasters did major damage to Chryslers ratings. I dont think anyone will argue that a Renault, Peugot or Fiat is more reliable than your average Ford or Chrysler.

The biggest problem to America and Europe, as well as Japan, is the developing Korean auto industry. They have the perfect situation, much cheaper labor than Japan, with simlar ideals about pride in the job and in the company. The Koreans are developing engines with competitive horsepower to Japan, and they already have started using DOHC engines with VVT, while many American cars still use antiquated pushrods. The 4.0L V6 in the 2005 Mustang is almost 40 years old. This is inexcusable. I would say a bigger problem that American auto has rather than labor quality is the companies willingness to recycle ancient technologies rather than developing or innovating. Just look at the Ford Crown Victoria if you need an example. Pushrods, beam axles, LEAF SRPINGS! Come on guys!

kyfdx · October 2004

1)Big Union labor doesn't build Hondas, Toyotas, and BMWs in the USA. All of their plants are non-union.

2)Almost every Honda Accord sold in the USA comes from Marysville, Ohio.. as well as every Acura TL. These aren't cars with poor reliability records. In fact, it is due to these cars that Honda has their well-deserved reputation for reliability. The same is true for the Tundras made in Indiana and the Camrys in Georgetown, KY. All of these plants have a dedicated workforce that are proud of their work and it shows.

3) Construction labor? Don't know what it is like where you live, but here, most of the grunt work is done by hispanics. Thank goodness for them.. they don't mind putting in a hard day's work at a crappy job for low wages.. The alternative is one of your high-school-dropouts with the bad attitude, along with much higher costs.. If the construction is bad, blame it on incompetent superintendents and foremen, and the people that hire them.

Or, blame it on people that only want the lowest price, and will give the job to any fool with a hardhat and a new pickup, that calls himself a contractor.

4) If you want to quote JDPower initial quality scores, I'm not buying it.. They rated Hyundai pretty highly the last time.. which is a fine car.... for 90 days.

regards,
kyfdx

footie · October 2004

FYI

The Toyota facilities in the US aren't unionized. Neither are Hondas.

They are unionized in Japan. However, the Japanese Unions are manufacturer specific.

If you think our unions are bad look at the junk that over paid folks in Germany are putting together and selling over here as "luxury cars". The average labor rate of assembly folks in German auto unions (ie. BMW, VW, MB, ...) is 37 Euros/hr.

kyfdx · October 2004

Actually, this week's issue of Businessweek has an article on GM possibly closing their Opel plant in the Ruhr valley..

They quote the hourly rate at that factory as $41.. With French factories only paying $38. And a 35 hour week!! It doesn't say if that is Euros or USD, though.

The BMW plant in South Africa (which makes 3-series sedans) routinely has higher quality scores than the plant in Germany.

rroyce10 · October 2004

.. **I dont think anyone will argue that a Renault, Peugeot or Fiat is more reliable than your average Ford or Chrysler.** ..

You really didn't print that with a straight face, now did you .?

Terry.

pat · October 2004

We are SO not on topic here ...

Has anyone acquired a new RL? What about any of the other vehicles in the category above?

laurasdada · October 2004

I believe one has to determine what JD Powers considers a "defect." I believe that when I read and article about their polls they report customer complaints as defects. My favorite example was that people who bought HUMMERS were terribly upset about the poor fuel economy they were getting. This was reported as a "defect" (as may be the thought process of many who bought a Hummer for it's stellar mpg!).

Kirstie_H · October 2004

For an upcoming article, one of our editors is looking to correspond with women executives about what they drive  or wish they did  and why. If youve got an opinion, please email Joanne Helperin, using execs in the subject line, at jhelperin@edmunds.com

jrock65 · November 2004

October Sales:

E: 5,011
5: 4,229
STS: 2,308
RL: 1,310
--------------
GS: 651
A6: 534
M45: 157

*Note that the GS, A6, and M are not the next-generation models.

dogface5 · November 2004

E and 5 are doing well as usual. STS and RL sales look promising. Sales of the older models are depressing.

diego413 · November 2004

Where did you get the October Sales?

lexusguy · November 2004

E must be Mercedes only strong car at the moment, considering their huge sales and profit slump lately.

maxhonda99 · November 2004

Individual press releases stating sales numbers are released by each manufacturer from typically the 1st to the 3rd of the month. You can find them on prnewswire.com and then search for the Company. This will give you the press release that stats current month figures, as well as YTD and prior year numbers.

diego413 · November 2004

Thank you so much.

jrock65 · November 2004

autochannel.com is also a good source

racer_x · November 2004

Check out my post (#4646) in the Acura RL forum for some bad news about the Audi A6 and its reliability.

Racer_X: Audi A6 vs Acura RL?

- Racer_X

lexusguy · November 2004

Its no secret that the previous A6 was a terrible car when it came to reliability. CR not only doesnt recommend the car, but they list it as a "risk" when used car shopping. Also in the PA\NJ lemon law website, the '03 A6 made it all the way to the top ten for most lemon law cases. This is after most of the A6's problems were supposedly fixed. You had a turbo, right? Volkswagen + turbo = repair shop. Though normally aspirated Volkswagen products tend to make it into the shop quite a bit as well. Might I suggest a Lexus?

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