Luxury Performance Sedans

hpowders · June 2005

Hey. Jay Leno and Reggie Jackson are living the dream.
For the rest of us, there's the Edmunds forums.

mexibec · June 2005

> Now what will my next car be?

We can argue on this and that, but that's the REAL question: what car to buy? The only way I found myself out of this question almost impossible to answer was to put in a spreadsheet the list of criteria that value to me (reliability, gizmos, safety, exterior design, price, etc.), along a "weight" for each criteria: 1 (not really important) to 5 (important big time). And then I just entered my own ratings (1 being poor, 5 being excellent). Adding each rating times their respective weight gives the final score. The one with the highest should be your next car! What works about this is that those are one's personal ratings in terms of what really matters (the criteria), how important they are against one another (their weight) and one's take on them (the ratings). In my list (M45, GS430 and 545i), the GS lost due to it's lack of sport performance and the 545i, to lack of reliability.

rich67 · June 2005

For what its worth, I have a GS300 on the boat, due to get here a week or so. I am coming out of a 04 Acura TL which is faster, but not as luxurious. I wanted to upgrade into something with more luxury, and go to a 2006, so first I tried the Mercedes E-350 ...quite overpriced I think, must be the 30% tack on that European cars have due to the euro over the dollar....nothing special.... then the Mercedes dealer was talking about how the 06 models have improved in quality(as you prob. know, Consumers Reports does not recommend Mercedes due to their lack of reliability)...he talked me into driving the new M...felt like a tank,very sluggish...and the power steering hose busted as I parked it.(so much for Mercedes reliability).... anyway, looked at the M, very nice, and then the Lexus...
just felt right.... not the fastest, but for the bucks I think, the best choice.
OH...also test drove on a track the 06 BMW 330....quite cheap looking, and the TL would run circles around it...the MAINTENANCE which is free is given at horrible intervals, like changing oil (synthetic) every 15000 miles....not a good idea in my opinion.

drtravel · June 2005

The GS is outselling the RL and A6 by more than 2 to 1, and it outsells the M by a large margin.

March-May Sales
GS = 9,548
M = 6,711
A6 = 4,629
RL = 4,084

The GS should sell more than the M because of greater previous owner recognition and the fact that Lexus shipped over a much larger supply of cars. Will be interesting to see what happens after the initial euphoria wears off. The GS has a history of tapering off big time. The M has no history (except for that old M45) although the G35 has increased in sales every year since it's introduction.

hpowders · June 2005

Quite a few people on the 5 series board as well as Edmunds user reviews,Yahoo! Autos user reviews and MSN Autos user reviews rate the 545 very highly. A few do not because of computer software glitches.

hpowders · June 2005

Oh puleeze! Now you are being ridiculous. The rear drive 330i is one of the best handlers in the world. There is no way the front drive "Acura TL runs circles around it" as you claim. It can't even run rings around itself with its ridiculously wide turning circle. You have probably never even driven a 330i. If you did, you would never make that claim about the Acura TL
That is absolutely LAUGHABLE!

hpowders · June 2005

These stats on the GS just prove that there are a lot of folks who put luxury and reliability above driving excitement.

jjacura · June 2005

I think you will enjoy the new GS300 but any car in this LPS group is a good decision buy......Being an owner of the Acura TL you probably tried the RL but didn't mention it in your post. How would you compare it to the GS300? (Did you get AWD?)

I also wonder how important "Driver Excitement" really is to the Lexus owners?

rich545 · June 2005

Where did this perceived "lack of reliability" come from for the 545i? Firstly, it's a new design and every new design has SOME problems. I would say that the E60 has actually had less of them than most new car releases in the first two years. Secondly, it doesn't have a long enough track record to know how reliable in the long run it will be. Just because Japan has been reliable in the past doesn't mean that the new M will continue that trend. It's much more complex than previous generations of Infiniti cars meaning that there's a lot more to break. I know many people that have had BMW's for years and very few of them have had major problems. I can't say how reliable my 545 will be because it's not even a year old yet (almost though). So far, so good but that doesn't prove much.

hpowders · June 2005

You wanna talk reliability of the new M? Just read through the posts on the M35/45 board. Strange noises and smells that Infiniti's engineers either can't fix or even worse tell the gullible consumers "it's normal."
This is the kind of stuff you will not ever read about in the auto rags. They only care about driving it for 1000 miles. Then they rid themselves of it. Nothing about reliability issues in their reviews.

kdshapiro · June 2005

While cheapness is in the eyes of the beholder heres a link to an Edmunds review that gives a different impression:

The Next 3 Is Still the One to Beat

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=104670

Note the tag line. "The Next 3 Is Still the One to Beat"

Also note the comment in the review: "Interior is beyond reproach

hpowders · June 2005

Yup. It's Taco Bell for me especially if I bypass the new 330i and go with the 545.

msu79gt82 · June 2005

You wanna talk reliability of the new M? Just read through the posts on the M35/45 board

Huh? Where? There are a total of 5 posts in the M35/M45 Problems & Solutions thread on Edmunds. I think there have been a few complaints on FA; there are hardly any complaints on Infinitiowners.org - there are so few reported problems on the various M boards that it concerns me - can a new model really be that problem free :confuse:

msu79gt82 · June 2005

There has been several posts recently comptemplating "which car to buy" :confuse: I could be mistaken but I suspect that for most of us on this board money does NOT grow on trees and that while we can afford to own these cars we are discussing it is not a matter of money is not an issue. In other words the cost of the car is very much one factor in the equation (at least for me anyway

). So which to buy; M, RL, GS, 545i, etc.

I have always considered car purchases to be a compromise of sorts due to at least two reasons; one I do not have an unlimited budget (see above) and two there is no such thing as a perfect car anyway. So at any given time a vehicle purchase is a compromise between what I need, what I desire, and how much I can afford. I generally always desire more than I need and rarely can afford what I desire - hence the compromise.

lexusguy · June 2005

Thank you, I didnt want to have to dig up those sales results for bondguy1. For just may sales, the A6 slipped into last place, and the RL edged up to just over 1400 sales. 1st to 4th place is a relatively small spread, 5, E, STS, GS.

Lexus' plan to keep GS sales afloat is the launch of the GS350, 460, 450h, and I think several years from now a 400+hp GS500 is a possibility.

If any car is going to at least match the 330i if not beat it, the TL is not that car. The IS350 has a shot, as does the next G. We'll see.

hpowders · June 2005

No. Forget the problems and solutions board. Go to the M35/45 board as I indicated in my post. You'll see 'em. Bring a handkerchief. It's so sad, it can bring you to tears!

hpowders · June 2005

I would think if you were a living, breathing person driving excitement would be nice at least some of the time.
The way the folks down here in Florida are driving, excitement seems to be the main virtue!

hpowders · June 2005

Well said! You pretty much sum it up for many of us.
Well, unfortunately, there is no perfect car out there. One drives great and has reliability problems. Another is very reliable but is too refined to generate any excitement, etc; etc;
And then cash becomes part of the equation.
Many of us, including me, feel your pain. It can be very frustrating.
But you do as much research as you can. These boards are a great help.
I have learned so much from many of these posters.
That way you and I hopefully can avoid buying or leasing a :lemon:

jrock65 · June 2005

EVERY single car that is talked about on msg boards will have people reporting problems. The new GS, RL, 5, M, E ... all have had people who've been reporting some issues.

The M board has a lot of posts. From just anecdotal evidence, the people who are having some minor issues are in the distinct minority.

maxhonda99 · June 2005

Huh...wouldn't you know after 5 minutes behind the wheel that you don't like it??

Okay...after 4 test drives you couldn't get yourself to like it....but you still came 99% of the way to buying it. I don't understand why you would even think about buying it after 4 test drives if you didn't like it.

lexusguy · June 2005

The worst things I can remember seeing on the 2006 M board are people with questions about "new engine smell" and a few dealer screw ups. VERY minor stuff. According to CR, 5-10% of 2004 5 series owners are reporting problems with power equipment. Thats a lot worse than some funny smells and over inflated tires.

hpowders · June 2005

Because of Lexus' reputation for reliability, that's why I wanted to like it. The fact that CR gives the 5 series a black circle for reliability affects me. It would go against everything I stand for to ignore a CR black circle.
I am negotiating for a 545i lease but I might back out of that too. The potential for problems with the software in this car is causing me more than a little anxiety. Yet I absolutely love the car.
Do I go with a car that isn't much fun to drive but will let me sleep at night or one that is fantastic to drive but makes me nervous about potential problems?
And you know what? I really dont have an answer. I may pick a BMW that is trouble free but then again...
My conscience says Lexus. My heart says BMW. My watch says I'd better decide soon or I'll be
driving my road bike as my main vehicle.
That's why I drove the Lexus 4 times. I wanted it to be my car. Badly.
But you should always follow your heart so I do believe the 545 will be the one.

msu79gt82 · June 2005

No. Forget the problems and solutions board. Go to the M35/45 board as I indicated in my post. You'll see 'em. Bring a handkerchief. It's so sad, it can bring you to tears!

Yea I have read them all then; I thought you were referring to a lot of real and serious issues. From what I've read and reserched here on Edmunds and elsewhere the new M is remarkably trouble free and a lot more so than the RL. It almost seems too good to be true.

hpowders · June 2005

No serious issues. Just the small annoyances like noises from the sunroof, strange odors,etc;
What would bother me is you bring the car back to Infiniti and a Japanese engineer cannot fix the problem or even worse, says that there is no problem. It's normal.
Normal. Yeah. Right!

bondguy1 · June 2005

I actually looked at a GS in the showroom. It was the 2nd week it came out. They made me feel like I was lucky to sit in one. They were full popping me on a lease quote (about $699/month w/ 12K miles). No thanks. I did see one tonight on the road in black w/ dark windows. It looked nice with chrome trim around rear side windows. But, it still looks like a Maxima.
Hey, why doesn't anyone mention the Chrysler 300 Hemi on this board. It is a Luxury Sport Sedan. Everyone is talking about speed and such. I did drive one of those...pretty quick car. The new SRT 425HP is even quicker.

lexusguy · June 2005

DaimlerChrysler has a car that competes in this class. Its called the E350 and E500. The Chrysler is nice, but a luxury car? No. The SRT8 version also sucks down gas worse than my XKR.

msu79gt82 · June 2005

No serious issues. Just the small annoyances like noises from the sunroof, strange odors,etc;
What would bother me is you bring the car back to Infiniti and a Japanese engineer cannot fix the problem or even worse, says that there is no problem. It's normal.
Normal. Yeah. Right!

No need for sarcasm or borderline racist remarks. :confuse:

I am debating between the Acura RL and the Infiniti M and thought that you had indicated that you had some info where the M had more reported problems than the RL - obviously you do not. I have owned Toyotas, Nissans, Oldsmobiles, Fords, Acuras, Infinitis, and Chryslers and I swear that I have no clue what nationality the mechanics were or why it would matter :confuse:

hpowders · June 2005

There was no racism intended. I was relating what somebody said on an M35/45 post, that an engineer from Japan who was sent to America from Infiniti to help with the car's problems either could not fix the problem or said it was normal. When I said Japanese engineer from Infiniti I was under the impression that any reader would understand this to mean an engineer from Japan who works for Infiniti. You're a bit touchy there aren't you, pal?
Hey pal read the M35/45 board. I was just repeating what someone else wrote.
As far as the sarcasm goes, if I bring a car to Infiniti with a problem and the head engineer from Infiniti tells me "it's normal," my response is gonna be "normal, yeah right!" whether you like it or not!
Also do not make the assumption that I am not Japanese.

hpowders · June 2005

You have me mixed up with someone else. I never posted anything saying I had any information where the M had more reported problems than the RL. I have never mentioned the RL in any of my posts.
I only talk about BMW, Lexus and Infiniti which are the 3 brands of cars I have driven recently. I have never driven the RL so I wouldn't venture an opinion on it.

msu79gt82 · June 2005

Sorry if I took your post to be sarcastic; it seemed that way to me. No mix up, you posted earlier about how problematic the new M was so I asked you where these reported problems were. I have read all of the M material on this board and much of the GS material and some of the BMW material as it relates to comparisons to cars I'm intersted in. From what I have read the new M has the fewest problem issues as far as active complaints on this boad among the various cars I'm looking at.

The M has virtually no issues from what I have read here and dialogs with you have helped me confirm that - so thank you. :shades:

hpowders · June 2005

No problem. Sorry if my words are occasionally wrongly chosen. I probably should have written "one of Infiniti's engineers from Japan" rather than a "Japanese engineer" because the first phrase is what I meant and that caused an unnecessary misunderstanding.
Anyhow, I drove the M35 and M45 sport and non-sport and even the M35 has so much power off the line that most people probably wouldn't need the M45.
I would consider the M35 luxury as a "best buy."
If you get the M you will have a very sharp vehicle inside and out and I'm sure you will love it.
I checked out the interior photos of the Acura RL in an auto magazine and it did get me thinking that I should drive this vehicle because those photos show the interior as gorgeous.
Peace!

lexusguy · June 2005

"I checked out the interior photos of the Acura RL in an auto magazine and it did get me thinking that I should drive this vehicle because those photos show the interior as gorgeous."

Prepare to be disappointed.

hpowders · June 2005

Poor handling or just boring? I saw one on the road and it did not look like a $50,000 car. But the interior looks very nice in the photos.

msu79gt82 · June 2005

When I first sat in an RL back in December (while my MDX was getting an oil change) I was instantly smitten, but was not in the market for new wheels. I again took a look at the RL in March (MDX oil change again) and spoke to my Sales Rep; he informed me that they were disappointed in the RL's sales and that he could make me a deal. I was still smitten at the time and began considering switching vehicles (FX35 for a sedan). As you might surmise from this and other recent posts research and deliberation have led to some interesting observations.

The RL's interior does not "age" well to me - by that I mean that the more I sit in it and test drive it the less I like it. To that extent I must agree that the interior is disappointing. I do not like the center portion of the dash, nor the placement of the "joystick" On the other hand the M35 interior did not overly impress me at first; however the more I sit in it and test drive it the more I like it.

Still no decision but as time marches on the M is clearly in the lead.

hpowders · June 2005

It seems like in most comparos, the M comes in first and the RL comes in second.
The fact that CR hates the RL is a distinct plus as far as I am concerned.
But like I said, I have never sat in it or driven it.
The M was a lot of fun-really quick acceleration.

isthisall · June 2005

I have always driven moderately priced, extremely reliable hondas and toyotas.

right now i have a 2003 525i, bought new. it is truly wonderful to ride in, except it leaks water into the rear floor, and the dealer cannot fix it after 4 tries.

my favorite car would be exactly the same car except one as reliable as my old hondas.

does such a car exist? i.e. with the visibility, comfort, safety, and driving feel of a bmw, but as reliable as a honda?

lexusguy · June 2005

"The fact that CR hates the RL is a distinct plus as far as I am concerned."

Since when? It seems to me like they gave it a "meh", which is what I would give it. The RL isnt fast. With 300hp it should be fast, but it actually brings up the rear with the A6 3.2 and GS300 (I'm not counting the S-type 3.0 here).

The RL doesnt handle particularly well. Its got 4,000lbs and 60% of it up front. SH-AWD does its best to control the amount of understeer poor weight distribution like that brings, but it still feels like a FWD car.

The RL is actually smaller than the old one, and thus it has interior space problems like the GS. Other than that, I love it.

hpowders · June 2005

Okay I'll bite, he said with some trepidation, what's a "meh?"
Like I said, I haven't driven it, but it seems to come up quite frequently in the #2 position in auto rag comparos. There must be something to like about it.

turnbowm · June 2005

"right now i have a 2003 525i, bought new. it is truly wonderful to ride in, except it leaks water into the rear floor, and the dealer cannot fix it after 4 tries."

Sounds like this is a candidate for the Lemon Law. The mold resulting from the water leak could pose a real health issue.

Martin

isthisall · June 2005

thanks very much for this suggestion. Indeed georgia law apparently says my car does qualify as a lemon. that is: a defect not repaired after 3 attempts within the first 24 months and 24,000 miles, at least one of which occurred in the first 12 months and 12,000 miles.

if i notify them now they get 2 weeks and one alst atempt to fix it or must replace it or refund the price of the car adjusted for use. sounds almost too good to be true. I need to check into this. it is not clear how they can replace a 2003 5 series with a car i agree is equivalent. :confuse:

lexusguy · June 2005

CR says: "The powertrain is polished, but ride and handling don't stand out in this class. Interior room is not much better than in the much less expensive TL."

In other words, its not necessarily bad, but its not necessarily good either. Its a resounding "meh". However, now that they are selling at $5K off sticker, it finally is a pretty good value. It should've cost $45K to begin with. Frankly, I dont get why the RL has been rated so highly in the automags.

hpowders · June 2005

I don't think they quite know what to do with it. "Meh?" :confuse:

laurasdada · June 2005

Actually, even at $5k off sticker I really don't see the value propostion in the RL. It's still ~$10k more than a TL and while you get a few more toys with the RL I don't think you really get any better performance, interior space, economy and certainly not higher style. I think the TL is the best styling Acura/Honda has done in years (yes, I own an '05 TL...). IMHO, stylewise, the RL reminds me of the last gen TL in that it is handsome, but generically so. Doesn't stand out at all. Maybe at $40k it might be on more lists for the sh-awd and other toys...

cmybimmergo · June 2005

How much do you love the car? Maybe it's worth it to take it elsewhere before declaring it a lemon. My (inexpert uneducated) guess is you will wind up with the adjusted price of the car...meaning then you have to find yourself a replacement, and sometimes the monster you know is better than the one you don't.

bobcatman · June 2005

1. M45 (219 points with 24 of 25 points in the fun to drive category, along with 3 other bests)
2. RL (215 points)
3. GS430 (208 points)
4. E350 (202 points)
5. A6 (199 points)
6. 530i (198 points
7. STS (191 points)
8. S-type (181 points)

Car & Driver usually puts fun to drive factor on its 10 best list and the RL is on it. Nothing to sneeze at here about the RL. When you slam and open the door (Thunk!) on a new RL you'll see why Honda/Acura builds a better product construction wise than Nissan/Infiniti. Fact is the new M cars are absolutley wonderful performance and design execution wise but Acura's look more buttoned down compared to G35/TL,TSX material wise. Cost cutting at Nissan is much more visible to the average untrained eye than Honda/Acura. But, both these cars are leaps better than the new Pontiac(designed for action) 5 series and taxi/police cruiser in Europe E class. Now the new GS just reeks of quality in&out but that's no surprise given their standards. The others on list are pretty much irrelevant market share wise other than those cheering for GM to somehow prevent Toyota from putting them outta business. You can still get that $60K STS for $42K now with the GM club card dicount to all.

cmybimmergo · June 2005

Hey, you're killing us. What's "meh"???

hpowders · June 2005

This is 3 times now. A request for "meh."
Inquiring minds want to know.
I cannot sleep tonight without the meaning of "MEH!" :surprise:

lexusguy · June 2005

Haha, I really didnt think it was that complicated.

"Meh" (or "eh") is the reaction one might make to something that is not impressive, average, etc. (See: Acura RL) This phrase may be accompanied by a shrug of the shoulders.

cmybimmergo · June 2005

"Eh" I know. "Feh" I also know. But obviously "meh" is a new one on at least two of us (I thought maybe it was an anagram, but couldn't come up with anything logical).

Now, who knows what "salty mashed potatoes" means?

hpowders · June 2005

Please. You guys are killing me. I have enough trouble concentrating on the cars.
I will drive a GS300 today because from the reviews, it seems to have better steering and brakes than the GS430, if you can believe it.

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