Luxury Performance Sedans

lexusguy · July 2005

"Sound systems -- the BOSE system in the Audi IS the best Audi sound system, ever."

According to this month's issue of TAS, Audi is working with B&O of all people on a new system in the 2007 Audi A8 that will make their current Bose setups look like a boombox from Wal-mart.

"Virtually all of the Beolab 5's innovations are currently being applied to the harsh sonic environment of automobiles. The initial beneficiary will be the 2007 Audi A8 sedan, Audi's flagship vehicle. The advanced sound system will consist of no fewer than 14 speakers and 1100 watts."

"While the speaker drivers are nothing unusual, their deployment is. Rather than mounting them in open-air spaces such as door frames and parcel shelves, each speaker is treated to its own custom enclosure."

"The crown jewels of this set are the tweeters which, when summoned, rise ghost-like from the dash top. These units employ Acoustic Lens technology to disperse sound waves over a remarkably uniform 180 degrees. "

"Not one, but every speaker in the Advanced Audio System gets its own Class D digital amplifier, ranging in size from 28 watts for the midranges and tweeters to 250 watts for the sub."

"Finally, and perhaps most significantly, B&O attacked a raft of other challenges via the aggressive use of DSP. The company's newly developed processor supports 16 seperate channels and uses 14 of them to create an EQ, delay, and active crossover profile for each speaker."

It sounds like Lexus\Mark Levinson may have some serious competition from Audi.

syswei · July 2005

Sounds very interesting, it'll keep Lexus on their toes. However, my impression is that B&O is know more for styling than for sound, so imho the jury is out until we hear both a 2007 A8 and 2007 LS.

markcincinnati · July 2005

The Infiniti system is BOSE, as is Audis.

I would possibly find the Audis system as good as the Infinitis if I could audition the Audi system with the same DVD-Audio Discs I used in the Infiniti.

B&O and Mark Levinson win in an important category "image." ML electronics are certainly almost without peer, of that there is little doubt.

B&O is a good image company for Audi to team up with.

No one asked me, but I would probably marry the best electronics with the best speakers or at least pick a "high end" company that often is considered the best in both fields or at least is well thought of in both fields: McIntosh electronics and speakers would be my choice, were I limited to but ONE mfg. I might consider Thiel speakers or perhaps Revel speakers with McIntosh electronics (since ML has already been taken.) But even then, one would have to ask who has some of the best transports? Well, Pioneer Elite wouldn't be too shabby -- but they are, gasp, Japanese. So we're back to picking something that has the "it" factor.

B&O is certainly more exclusive than BOSE. The BOSE company, truth be told, might actually be able to do a better job, but heck, BOSE is overexposed, I suppose.

So we're back to B&W? B&O? McIntosh?

I'd vote for a 100% McIntosh set up -- I must've misplaced my ballot.

The 13 speaker system in the Audi is only given a markdown because I can't "prove" its capabilities. I have become quite taken with really good DVD-Audio (but it is probably a still-born medium) and a few Japanese makers will play them and Audi will not. If you don't give a hoot about DVD-Audio, I am confident you will find the Audi Audio system to be "among the finest."

I am not too concerned that the B&O system will be a step backward -- yet I wonder if B&O really is more about "show" than "go," time will tell.

I am now home and at 1,300 miles. The A6 makes 250 mile stints (with one stopover for a bottle of cold iced tea) darn near effortless, that's for sure.

P.S. Maybe Audi didn't consider McIntosh since Subaru got there first.

lexusguy · July 2005

Interesting choices. McIntosh isnt bad by any stretch, but they definitely would not be my choice for the ultimate car stereo. Thiel's use of pretty much metal everything in their speakers makes them overly bright and foward in my opinion, pretty much requiring tube gear, and I dont think tubes would work very well in a car. Revel is interesting because they are under the Harman umbrella, along with Mark Levinson and Lexicon, so Lexus could use Revel designed drivers if they wanted to.

Pioneer's transport is a good one, and a popular choice for many high end companies such as Simaudio and Theta. However, Denon and Esoteric (Teac) have better ones. Both are also from Japan though. Another possibility, (probably the best possibility if this ultra system wants to have SACD capability as well as DVD-A) is to use a Linn transport from the Unidisk, which comes from Scotland.

When considering amplifiers, space and efficiency is a lot more of a concern than it is in home audio. Big fat Class A Krells would be great, except they would weigh hundreds of pounds and turn the inside of the car into a blast furnace. Class D amps are best suited to cars because of power-to-size\heat ratio, but most digital amps are noisy (see: Sunfire).

My choice for pre and power amplification would be PS Audio. Their new "gain cell" powered digital amplifier is capable of unimaginable power (1000 watts per channel!) with almost no heat, and none of the heavy harmonic distortion of the traditional digital amplifier. PS Audio GCA-MC

Speakers is a tough one. Assuming conventional dynamic drivers would be used, I think Von Schweikert is the best of the best, better than even Dynaudio and Revel.

bondguy1 · July 2005

Drove the A6 tonight about 80 miles roundtrip to a relatives house. Cruising at speeds of about 70-75, the whole jouney averaged 24.8MPG. I was kind of shocked because there were some instances when I gunned it getting on the Turnpike. It must be the FSI engine. I didn't realize that fuel economy would actually register so close to the highway figure quoted on the window sticker. When I filled up my car, it took 19.6 gallons of unleaded (Premium...$48.00 Argh) and the distance to empty meter in car registered 560 Miles to Empty.

jlbl · July 2005

Here there is a picture of the battery place in an E-60, which is %50/50 very well balanced.
José

http://www.bmwnation.com/images/gallery/5/e60e61/e60_prod_paintshop_01_s.jpg

markcincinnati · July 2005

I pretty much agree with your remarks. Remember what we seem to think Audi (and others) may be doing -- building a NAME or IMAGE relationship.

Of all of the things you said, pertaining to high end companies, I think I will now scratch McIntosh (and they're already spoken for by Subarau) and substitute Linn entirely.

I use Tukans as my surround rear speakers, and although they are somewhat pricey, Linn does make good stuff. Then, again, there may be one issue -- is Linn TOO obscure (from a name standpoint)?

Audi could use Linn to great effect and perhaps that is what will happen with B&O, but for many people, even B&O will be somewhat of an unknown.

Yet, Lexus used ML, which is hardly a household word.

Cache first HAS to be the motto.

markcincinnati · July 2005

. . .so I will post it where the cars are that seem to be the most demanding of the gas we put in them.

I was surfing along over the long weekend whilst at my mother in law's and came across this web site:

http://www.toptiergas.com/

You'll certainly want to check this site out, but here is a brief tease:

"TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is a recently established new standard for gasoline performance. Four of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.

Since the minimum additive performance standards were first established by EPA in 1995, most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result, the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction."

There are only 8 retailers of gasoline that pass the TopTier standards -- the site lists them.

I pulled into my local Chevron station today -- and right on top of the pump was a plug for the TopTier gasoline standards and of course they are one of the 8 retailers. I'll have to check their prices -- but as far as I can tell there is no difference (in Cincinnati) as to brand, only as to location. If all the gas is $2.32 in the immediate area, the differences are never more than a penny. If the gas is $1.99 ditto. Today gas is back to $2.45. Yesterday on my long drive from Pittsburgh to Cincinnati the differences were as great as $.25 (speaking only of Premium juice, BTW) from station to station, again location dependant.

Check out TopTier -- I remember when we had our first BMW way back in time and the dealer was adamant that we used "BP" gas. For years the Audi dealer was equally adamant that we use either Marathon or Mobile or Chevron.

Hope it is not just marketing.

maxhonda99 · July 2005

Interesting you came across that website.

Car And Driver in their August 2005 issue had a editorial article on Top Tier gasoline.

Speaking of BP, starting I believe next year, all Ford branded vehicles will have the BP logo on the gas cap!!

lexusguy · July 2005

"I use Tukans as my surround rear speakers, and although they are somewhat pricey, Linn does make good stuff. Then, again, there may be one issue -- is Linn TOO obscure (from a name standpoint)? "

Apparently Aston Martin doesnt think so. Linn DB-9 systems

markcincinnati · July 2005

Well heck, for a lot of folks Aston Martin is obscure.

Maybe B&O was all that was left for Audi in the esoteric (but not TOO esoteric) space.

Said it before: I've not been a big fan of BOSE, but they have managed to put together some excellent in-car audio.

BOSE must be too "pedestrian" for Audi; or for the "Audi" Audi hopes and wants to become, one would imagine.

Shame on us, we're already (possibly) assuming that B&O will be all yak and no shak! All hat a no cattle, etc.

B&O certainly has made some cool looking stuff for the home (or Dr's office) over the years. I am just really enjoying the BOSE system in my new A6 -- more than I thought I would. Just got the new Van Morrison, "Magic Time" and Coldplay "X&Y" CD's for my traveling music -- the Mark Levinson system, I would hope, is better -- but this new Audi BOSE collaboration is, as I noted, the best Audi sound system ever. And, it is among the best I've heard regardless of mfg.

The Infiniti with the in-seat speakers was just a tad better but in fairness that was with a DVD-Audio source. Someone somewhere must know why Audi chose NOT to include DVD-Audio or SACD in this car (and I haven't forgotten the obvious answer: price.) Perhaps it is just because there isn't much of a selection of such media.

greenbelt · July 2005

Where in the world did these numbers come from? I think your calculator blinked.

Generally, the top of the line Lexus (like the SC430) will have a rating something like 63 problems per 100 vehicles or about .63 per car in the initial quality studies and the 80 problems per hundred vehicles in the long term study.

Industry average for the most recent JDP Vehicle Dependability Study was 237 PP100 or 2.37 per car. The only European companies above the average was BMW at 225 and Porsche at 149 (just behind Lexus' leading 133). See http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/vds2005089.asp for the VDS.

The JDP Initial Quality Survey showed significant improvement in recent models for Audi, Jag and even Mercedes. It's at http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005069&search=1

I checked Consumer Reports April Auto issue today and there reported numbers were pretty much in line with JDP. Both sample sizes are similar and statistically significant.

Regards

lexusguy · July 2005

TAS made mention of the fact that B&O had previously been known more for fancy wall hanging CD players than stuff that necessarily sounds good. The Beolab 5 though is supposed to be a suberb speaker, (havent actually heard it myself) and the author of the article said that he was in an A6 test vehicle that B&O was working on and it apparently sounded pretty good.

While I think the Lifestyle systems, Wave Radios, and "Quietcomfort" headphones are all junk, I agree that Bose has done some nice work in cars, but they've done just as many cars that are mediocre at best. Very hit and miss. I think I can understand what Audi is thinking though. Bose is used in a lot of cars, including mass market cars like Nissan, so having the Bose logo on the head unit is just not that impressive, especially for audiophiles who dont drink the Dr. Bose kool-aid, and like to watch a few minutes of the infomercials just to laugh at them (ok, maybe thats just me).

Maybe a top Audi guy likes B&O, or maybe B&O wanted to get into the car business and approached Audi? There's definitely no shortage of speaker and electronics companies to choose from though, and actually I'm kind of surprised that Mercedes or Audi havent turned to German audio companies. German speaker and electronics maker MBL Akustikgerte GmbH for example, makes some of the best gear in the world, easily the equal of a Mark Levinson.

syswei · July 2005

Speaking of Dr. Bose, have people on this board seen the following? I think it looks absolutely revolutionary, and Automobile magazine calls it "the first mega-breakthrough in car suspensions since the gas-pressurized shock....astonishingly silken ride and...remarkable level of handling achievable without compromise in the same vehicle":

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/0410_bose/

Coming soon to a Lexus near you (I hope!)

P.S. make sure to check out the video by clicking on the old-style LS400, about midway through the article...you will be impressed!

markcincinnati · July 2005

If I copied wrong, I apologize -- as far as I can tell, I did not, however.

"Audi Improves Ranking in Consumer Reports Reliability Survey"

Survey finds European vehicles continue to be among the least reliable overall

Mar 7, 2005

source: Consumer Reports

designman · July 2005

Thanks for the link. Indeed, thats impressive.

hpowders · July 2005

Speaking of CR, in the latest issue they indicate that next month they will be testing 5 "luxury sedans." They are the Acura RL, Audi A6, Cadillac STS, Infiniti M35 and Toyota Avalon.
Wouldn't you think the new GS300 would have fit in better in this group than the Avalon?
I can see it now in the next issue of CR, "You don't have to spend 45-50k as the 33k Avalon clearly shows." I predict it comes in number one in this group in the Toyota-crazy CR next issue.

syswei · July 2005

There is more info here:

http://www.bose.com/controller?event=VIEW_STATIC_PAGE_EVENT&url=/learning/project_sound/su- spension_challenge.jsp&pageName=/learning/index.jsp

thematrixhasu · July 2005

I Believe this thread in the forum is biased and of no realworld comparison. It is two sedans that should be on this forum, (PAT your probably going to erase this as always when people dont agree with you)

The first is a fully loaded 300c awd and the second is the toyota avalon. I understand your premise, of look at the entry level of their bloodlines and if its not luxury than their not allow entry into the discussion but i believe the real view is both of these cars fully loaded is more of a bargain and out performs and in some cases out classes some of these so called allowed cars in this thread, the one thing i dont understand is there is threads talking about something similar to this manner on Car and Driver, Motortrend, Road and track, automobile mag, and various euro mags and the one thing they share what the almighty edmunds dont is the ability to see the market change and restructure itself.

Pat and everyone else, you can think that the cars allowed are the ones that should be here but the funny thing is the cars thats allowed are the same cars being traded in for the 300c and the avalon. This will probably be erased as no one here can have a view that against the moderators or the owners of the so-called allowed car for fear of being beat, but if someone sees it than great, one last point i know that this view is against the moderators but the moderators are against the norms so ......... never mind that would make too much sense sorry. erase away. :confuse:

kyfdx · July 2005

You seem to have issues..

One piece of advice.. Use a paragraph now and then.. Your posts stand a better chance of being read...

regards,
kyfdx

markcincinnati · July 2005

The inclusion of the Avalon doesn't make any sense to me either.

But, as someone who has "examined" the Cadillac CTS and STS and the Chrysler 300C, I would find a NOT UNREASONABLE comparo in some magazine of C&D's or R&T's character to be a fully maximum optioned 300C AWD head to head with an STS. Most would argue (convincingly and correctly) that the Chrysler is NOT a Luxury Performance Sedan. However, the SPEED channel's 1/2 hour love fest "test report" of the 300C claimed it could "stand up against" the Mercedes E class, the BMW 5 and 7 series and the Audi A8.

At the time, when I saw the test report, I wondered what drugs they were on -- but the class of "near" this or that cars has improved and can (possibly) "rival" the features, functions and panache of the higher zoot cars.

The new Avalon with its "power and refinement, features and functions" mainly lacks the "pedigree" or panache to run with the RL, A6, STS and M35 -- in some other ways it is right at home in this crowd -- from the CR point of view.

And, I agree, it will not be a shocker if the Avalon wins.

So, I wonder out loud, why NOT put the 300C AWD in this class (that is a rhetorical question, please.)

hpowders · July 2005

What bothers me is the new GS300 is such a logical choice to be included.

It seems that CR included the Avalon to re-enforce their tiresome concept that one doesn't have to spend a lot of money to get good quality.

I for one would have enjoyed their take on the new GS300 since it is arguably the best handling Lexus yet.

In case KYFDX is reading this, I have gone out of my way to include a lot of paragraphs.

I also realize that I have many issues: Road & Track, Car and Driver, Motor Trend, etc;

kyfdx · July 2005

LOL...

markcincinnati · July 2005

The GS should be included -- but if they're gonna have the Avalon why not the Maxima, for Pete's sake.

When CR reports a "fact" I [usually] believe it. Truth be told, we all have an agenda of some kind -- but the "CR Point of View" as you pointed out does seem to be showing.

I rarely consider anything that CR says about cars beyond the facts to have much merit. I used to laugh, too, when they would rate loudspeakers. It would crack me up that so many Radio Shack speakers made it to the "best" category.

I am not against stating that something is good, better, best and "for the money."

I have no criticism of the Avalon -- one of the guys I work with has one, it is comfortable, quiet, the A/C works well and the CD player is pretty good. It is, however, bland (but bland is subjective -- 'cause the guy that has it loves it, brags about its reliability and "set and forget" nature; and, I just don't see it in that light.) It doesn't belong in an LPS comparo.

Remember the days when Ford had a car, I can't remember it's name, but the commercials for the car would compare it side by side with a Mercedes. I think they would prove that the car was "library quiet," had better acceleration than the Mercedes and on and on -- I don't know if someone shopping for a Mercedes actually cross shopped the Ford, but my wager would be NOT!

I looked most seriously at the A6 and the M35X -- the Avalon never even made my long list. The GS300 did -- but it, for my tastes, was pushing the lux side much more heavily than the more sporting side. If you thought the M35X or the A6 were a bit too "stiff" -- perhaps the GS should be on your list.

Thanks for the paragraphs, it does make things a bit easier to read.

And, BTW, we ALL have issues!

I will symbolically buy you a beer (or whatever) if the Avalon doesn't win though.

docnukem · July 2005

Does CR buy all of their test vehicles, or do the auto comapines give them the cars? If they are donated, I could certainly understand Toyota NOT giving them a GS to compare to the Avalon (and I can imagine Toyota execs smirking as they can imagine the anticipated results of their "second tier" car going against "first tier" luxo-sports from other companies).

If CR buys them, then they certainly should include the GS (and the Maxima) so that all of the apples and oranges can be compared at once.

jrock65 · July 2005

Given CR's affinity for the "practical", I can easily see the $35k Avalon winning against the $50k sedans. They'll say something like ... "just as luxurious and powerful, more room, and better in snow, for 2/3 of the price!!!"

If we're gonna throw in the Avalon, why not throw in the ES in there too?

nebraskaguy · July 2005

Does CR buy all of their test vehicles, or do the auto companies give them the cars?

According to CR's literature, they buy all products, including cars - none are given to them by manufacturers.

hpowders · July 2005

Okay. You're on!

Something tells me that symbolically speaking of course, if I read my CR correctly, you will not have to buy me that imaginary beer.

It's so hot in Tampa right now that even an imaginary beer would sure taste good, I imagine!

bjbird2 · July 2005

Mark, I remember a time about two years ago when I said Infiniti was a brand to watch in the LPS arena, and you said that Infiniti was not a player in the same league as the Euro brands.

The Avalon is a much different car from last year's model, a vast improvement.
Who knows, 2 years from now you may be considering the Avalon, as you considered the M35 this year. The Japanese manufacturers have reliability, and now they are giving the Europeans a run for drivability and refinement.

bjbird2 · July 2005

Mark, I remember a time about two years ago when I said Infiniti was a brand to watch in the LPS arena, and you said that Infiniti was not a player in the same league as the Euro brands.

The Avalon is a much different car from last year's model, a vast improvement.
Who knows, 2 years from now you may be considering the Avalon, as you considered the M35 this year. The Japanese manufacturers have reliability, and now they are giving the Europeans a run for driveability and refinement.

maxhonda99 · July 2005

The Avalon is a totally different car this year especially in Touring trim. I recently bought a Toyota Sienna, and after reading the C&D comparo where the Avalon Touring came in #1, I had to go test drive it to believe whether or not it was as good as C&D claimed. I have to say after driving it a few days ago it is a complete turnaround for the Avalon from the 2004 model. The Touring, for such a large FWD car, handles really well, and it is one quick car! The only thing really lacking from the Avalon still is the lack of a exhaust note and the steering is still slightly numb(but it's still light years ahead of the previous Avalon).

thematrixhasu · July 2005

With all this said why is the avalon the first mentioned, the 300cawd should definitely be in here, price, class, amenities and performance hands down.

hpowders · July 2005

I wasn't knocking the Avalon. The logical choice by CR from Toyota Motors given the other cars in the CR comparo should have been the GS300. I mean all the others cost 45k to 50k.
The fact that they selected the Avalon to join this higher-priced group seems to prejudge their intention.

jrock65 · July 2005

"The fact that they selected the Avalon to join this higher-priced group seems to prejudge their intention."

Totally agree with you. I mean it's one thing if the GS didn't exist, or if the GS was not a new model (all of the cars are 1 year old or less).

But they have a brand spanking new GS staring them in the face and they decide not to include the obvious choice in this comparo.

Maybe they ran out of money by the time they got to the Lexus dealership and decided to go for a Toyota down the street.

markcincinnati · July 2005

Imagine the reaction if Toyota took this latest and greatest Avalon and added AWD to the thing as is -- that would be a head turner based on some of the stuff I've read about the 2WD Avalon.

Dr. Deming, Germany needs you now, methinks.

bjbird2 · July 2005

Maybe CR thought the Avalon represented the best value, which would make sense after all the positive reviews.
I think it's admirable that CR looks for value in their comparisons, and not just price or
perceived brand image. If the Avalon does 90% what the GS and other cars in the comparo do, then it's a great value, and consumers should know about it.

thematrixhasu · July 2005

with that i beleave the 300c awd and the avalon should be allowed into this forum and it seem to me alot of others due too.

P.s if the avalon serves up 90% of the the gs and other cars in the camparo do then the 300c awd has to have the full 100% hince put em in even though i know you won't Its still good to have the people heard anyway

markcincinnati · July 2005

Freeforall?

Agree or disagree -- I really don't care much what CR says, other than the FACTS -- the Avalon, nice as it is, is NOT an LPS car in class, price or character.

If you want to compare cars, it would seem reasonable to compare same class or same "intention" cars or same "customer set" cars. The Avalon just doesn't seem to fit.

I just read a glowing review of the new Hyundai for 2006. It kinda sorta looks like a B5 Audi A4 -- why not test the Audi and Hyundai, they're of similar size and they sorta look like they coulda been related sometime a few years ago.

I suspect the Toyota is a spoiler -- and for all I know the FACTS may lead one to think the Toyota is the best car and it just so happens to be a 2/3 the cost.

Why not throw in a "fill in the blank" high buck, really high buck (say 50% more expensive than the $50K mark) car -- yea, throw in a short wheelbase A8.

The test becomes, for most of us, a little bit more difficult to follow if the apples are compared to kiwis or pineapples or something that, while a fruit, doesn't belong in the group.

Unless we want a freeforall -- which would probably not be a very "helpful" report.

My $.02.

lexusguy · July 2005

Really though, how useful are the CR comparisons? They spend a paragraph talking about how easy or difficult to use the controls are, and another paragraph on the safety systems. How the car actually drives is given maybe 3 sentences at most. CR generally doesnt have "winners" in their comparos either, its usually just here's what we recommend (usually Toyota and Honda) and heres what we dont (everybody else).

thematrixhasu, you know what? We get it. You like the 300C. Wether it can mop the floor with any of the actual players in the class really doesnt matter. Like the Avalon, it just doesnt belong here. DaimlerChrysler has a LPS, called the Mercedes E class.

bjbird2 · July 2005

A couple of years ago, Mark said Infiniti did not belong in a discussion similar to this. Look where they are today, winning all the LPS comparos, and Infinitis are still a relative bargain.

Infiniti seriously entered the LPS category with the G35, which nobody took really took seriously until the road tests started coming out. Toyota could be in a similar LPS entry position with the Avalon, especially if they offered AWD and a sport suspension option. They already meet many of the other LPS criteria, and in some areas, actually outdo what some consider to be LPS vehicles. It is interesting that Toyota chose to offer such a bargain in the Toyota brand instead of their premium brand.

Point being that the LPS boundaries are becoming less distinct, a great opportunity for some interesting shopping.

pat · July 2005

This is turning into a discussion about what the discussion is about and that makes no sense.

The vehicles we are talking about are listed at the top of this page. Anyone who thinks some other topic is appropriate is free to start another comparo here, but it is not appropriate to bust in here and demand that the topic which has been the conversation for almost 3000 posts be changed arbitrarily and unilaterally.

We have previously touched on the fact that only 6 vehicles can be listed at the top and occasionally something is swapped in or out, but when that happens it is because there has been thoughtful debate about a car that at least roughly fits the price point and the features of the others.

And sorry, but neither the Avalon nor the 300M are on topic here anyway you slice it.

If anyone has an issue with discussion management, it can easily be addressed via email. Posting about it is not appropriate.

Thanks for everyone's understanding and for getting back to discussing the topical cars instead of discussing what we are discussing.

frisconick · July 2005

discussion about what the discussion is about and that makes no sense

I disagree Pat, new cars come along, like the Avalon, and challege what the discussion is about. This car holds it's own against a lot of much more expensive cars in a lot of ways, hence it challenges the premise of what these cars are all about. A gentle disagreement

lexusguy · July 2005

No, it doesnt. Toyota is not a luxury name plate, and the Avalon is not a LPS. The Avalon already has its own class of cars, including the Buick LaCrosse, Chrysler 300, Ford 500, Kia Amanti and Hyundai XG350, and Nissan Maxima. None of them are luxury mid-lux performance sedans, and so none of them belong here.

This discussion pertains to the STS, S-type, A6, E class, 5 series, GS, M, and RL. Thats it.

markcincinnati · July 2005

Freeforall -- NOT.

bjbird2 · July 2005

Pat, I would also like to disagree (gently). This forum is about luxury performance sedans, and I think the definition of LPS is part of the topic. Is it brand, price or the attributes of the car? The category is changing all the time. That's what makes an interesting forum, we all have our own opinions. Otherwise this should be a Lexus, BMW Accura, etc forum.
Calling it LPS leaves it open to interpretation, change, and debate.

hpowders · July 2005

Okay. Then I propose again: In next month's Consumer Reports, 5 cars will be compared.
Four of them are in the 45-50k price range: Audi A6, Cadillac STS, Infiniti M35 and Acura RL.
The glaring exception is the fifth car, the Toyota Avalon, around 33k.
Why wasn't the Lexus GS300 included instead of the Avalon? The Lexus, a Toyota product, logically would have fit right into the luxury category like the other 4 cars as it costs 45-50k.
I don't care about the Avalon and I do not wish to discuss the Avalon on this forum. Why would CR leave out the GS300?
To me this is a big disappointment as the GS300 is arguably the best handling Lexus yet. I drove it and found it to be so.

frisconick · July 2005

The Avalon is far superior to the Buick LaCrosse, Chrysler 300, Ford 500, Kia Amanti and Hyundai XG350, and Nissan Maxima, and you know it, and so does everyone else here. :P

hpowders · July 2005

The problem is on this forum we are here to discuss the Audi A6, BMW 5 series, Acura RL, Infiniti M and Lexus GS cars.
When we stray, we gently get reminded to get back on topic.

bjbird2 · July 2005

And, as I said, what makes a luxury performance sedan? Price? Brand?
Or the attributes of the car, regardless of price and brand?

hpowders · July 2005

The questions you have are all good and valid ones but are not questions for this forum since we are bound by constraints to concentrate on the 6 luxury performance cars listed above.
You should ask one of the forum managers these questions and perhaps your questions can result in an expansion of this forums' constraints or result in another thread started by you.
Good luck.

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