Luxury Performance Sedans

hpowders · August 2005

How do you like the M45? How long have you had it?

rich545 · August 2005

Fair enough. What I was really responding to re:iDrive was the statement about supporters of the system "losing credibility." I don't really see credibility involved at all. It's just an opinion one way or the other. From what I see here and on other forums most defenders of iDrive are owners of the E60. To me, if credibility is involved, that would give their opinion more cerdibility since they use it everyday, but I know others dissagree with that opinion. Sorry about implying that you were complaining. My saying was really meant to address a larger group of people that bash on the E60 endlessly it seems. I incorrectly assummed you were in that group and I apologize. Question for you as someone that doesn't love the new designs. Do you think that BMW made such bold changes to capture larger sales from a younger generation? I know that there are older people that like the new designs and older people that hate them, but (and I can't make this clear enough) in my experience younger people (Generation X-ers for example) seem to like my car more than older people (Baby Boomers for example). I'm sure BMW tries to determine the demographics of their buyers, and I wouldn't be surprised if they figured out that Baby Boomers were the largest group of E39 buyers. With Baby Boomers getting older I think it's possible that BMW wanted to position itself for future sales to the Generation X-ers which would be the next age group most likely to buy a 5 series. I don't know if any of this really makes sense, but it's just something I was thinking about. I can tell you that most of my friends thought the E39 was a nice car, but boring while they seem to love the E60 for the most part. Certainly if I ran BMW that would be important to me. I would want to build cars that appealed to the largest possible group. In terms of future sales that would be Gen X-ers rather than Baby Boomers. So maybe they decided that it was worth it to lose some of the latter to gain more of the former. What do you think? Is this a completely off the wall theory???

markcincinnati · August 2005

. . .the majority of what we write here and what we read in Automobile, Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Road & Track and European Car is subjective.

I appreciate the passion from those who love (or hate) the looks of the fill-in-the-blank LPS car. I read the posts and sometimes I do get a new perspective or new appreciation for fill-in-the-blank.

It may sound less than true now (since I did end up with yet another Audi), but in significant measure, because of this forum, my wife and I both did not "automatically" exclude everything except Audi when we went shopping earlier this year for two new cars.

She did end up with a very nice BMW X3 and I had ordered and put my money down on a new M35X with journey and technology packages and a spoiler on the butt.

Sure, Audi came in at the 11th hour and leveled the playing field financially for the car I had actually chosen as my number one (until I saw the price.)

So these forums have been entertaining, instructive and invaluable to at least two people (my wife is now reading them, even though she has not ventured to post anything, yet) in their quest to make combined purchases of $100,000 (on two new German cars.)

The passion for the styling of the non-German members of the LPS must be waning or was never there in the first place, for I see little written about the style (exterior and/or interior) of the non-German LPS candidates.

That's fine with me, too.

I was "forcing" myself to grow to like the M35X (in terms of style) and had mostly accepted it (especially the interior in Bourbon, which I really did like) -- I have to do no such thing to like the A6 (even moreso the interior, which at the moment is my absolute fave.)

Anyway -- there are few facts put out here (and elsewhere). I don't care -- this is neither illegal, immoral nor fattening -- bring on the "arguing."

Seems to be a pretty cheap, healthy and stimulating passtime. . .don't you think? Or don't you? :shades:

cstiles · August 2005

So which exactly is redundant? iDrive or the ancillary controls?

My point from 6 months ago was that iDrive (and similar interface systems) are simply not a necessity. Furthermore, they adversely impact safety, cockpit ergonomics, aesthetics, cost, lack of standards from model to model on the most basic controls, and long term, adds more things that can break down.

It's technology for technology's sake.

kdshapiro · August 2005

I think it's interesting with gas prices approaching $3/gallon in some parts of the country that one doesn't care about the mileage no matter how much the car costs. I know people who are dumping their G35s for that very reason.

14-15 mpg @ $3/gallon for an 18 gallon tank starts to get very expensive.

I'm surprised about the value conversation and yet it's okay to throw money away on gas.

rich545 · August 2005

Both are redundant depending on which you prefer to use. If you like using iDrive, the dials and buttons are redundant. If you like using the buttons and dials, iDrive is redundant. If your going to use the "It's technology for technology's sake." that can apply to about 95% of the technology products out there. Do we really NEED most of it? TV's, cell phones, computers, MP3 players, etc. Do we need them? Hell, do we NEED seat heaters? No, none of them are absolute necessities. YOU believe iDrive impacts all of the things you mentioned. I don't agree. Can it break? Sure. But so can the computers in any cars. Just because it has a screen doesn't make it more breakable. The goal of iDrive is to provide a central system that can be used to control many systems in the car. I feel it is at least a good early try at achieving this goal. You don't. That's fine with me. I really don't want to get into the iDrive debate all over again to tell you the truth. I like it, and that's all that matters to me. I'll try to refrain from commenting on it again because I'm sure this endless debate is really boring to most here.

maben · August 2005

Just took delivery of my new M35 last weekend. Black on black with rosewood interior and no options (don't need the nav package as I have a Treo 650 which does the same) and I couldn't see the need for anything else when the base trim has everything I've ever needed or wanted. I have to say that this is by far the largest car I have ever owned. That being said, it doesn't drive like I first expected. If anything, it drives like a slightly larger, slightly stickier version of the G35 sedan. Though I am still in the break-in period, the straight-line acceleration is very impressive, considering this thing weighs some 3800 lbs. or so. Likewise, I've been pleasantly surprised by its cornering, especially coming off-or-on highway ramps. I live in northern Virginia and the place is lousy with interstate exchanges.

So far, my favorite aspect of the car has been the interior design. While the exterior is somewhat subtle and doesn't cause too many people to look twice, I was ready for something a little less conspicuous than my last car. My favorite new feature is Bluetooth, which syncs seamlessly with my phone. Though the voice quality isn't as good as it would be using the phoneset itself, the practical aspects of the system are great, considering that DC (where I work and commute) has laws against cellphone use when driving.

I wanted to add my 2 cents on the debate over the different PLS that everybody on this forum is talking about. Somebody said earlier that all these comparisons are entirely subjective, which I completely agree with. The last car I owned was a 2002 BMW 325Ci. When I first got it, I loved everything about it: its styling, its handling, and that wonderful inline 6. Though my wife hated it (mostly because it was bright cherry red), she loves the new Infiniti. Finds it more approachable and not as touchy as the bmer. After looking at all the different models out there, including the RL, A4, GS, and the new 5 series, I decided that the M was the car I lusted for. With the abundant choice of PLS out there right now, and the fact that each one (except the Jag, poor thing) have all won various comparison tests at some time or another shows the astounding quality and driveability of each of these vehicles.

In the end, regardless what you settle on, you really can't go wrong. For cars at this price range, its a purely subjective decision based on factors that cannot always be adequately explained. Let's be honest, if these things weren't engineered to make our mouths water with desire, we'd all be saving ourselves 10-20K and buying Accords (don't get me wrong, great cars!) The best metaphor I can think of is that buying a car like this is like starting a new romance. Some choices may be better for you than others, but when you get down to it, its that one car that turns you on that;s the one that you're going to go for. Of course, some of us do end up regretting that decision later, but isn't that what 3 year leases are for?

msu79gt82 · August 2005

I think it's interesting with gas prices approaching $3/gallon in some parts of the country that one doesn't care about the mileage no matter how much the car costs.

As fine as all these LPS cars are they are NOT perfect. There is no such thing as a perfect car. And I suspect that the specific cars we are discussing are being bought by folks who do not have an unlimited supply of cash. In other words while they can afford their LPS, I suspect they are not a "money-is-not-an-issue" family (if they were there are higher end cars than these). Also I suspect that there are indeed more than a few of LPS buyers who have stretched their budgets and are financing their LPS.

Whats the point? All car purchases are a compromise between a persons needs, wants, and budget. No one NEEDS one of these LPS vehicles, we WANT them. Anyone who ignores the cars costs is not financially sound. Unless one is in the Bill Gates category, money IS an issue. Even though I can afford an LPS sedan, I would be a fool to just go pick one out and pay them the sticker price. Also I would be a fool to gas up at an Exxon station at $2.49 a gallon when the Shell accros the street is $2.32 :shades:

jjacura · August 2005

"Mark/JJ Acura, I am not a teenager, but in my circle dude is a term of endearment, not insult."

OK Dude carry on!

emergency_md · August 2005

I've recently been shopping for a new car in the luxury performance sedan segment and thought I would share my thoughts here, as I've learned quite a bit reading the Edmunds forums myself.

I've done quite a bit of research online during the shopping period and took several test drives before coming to a decision. I was planning to spend anywhere from $35k - $50k and definitely want navigation as a feature.

1. Acura TL -- This was the first car I drove. I was really impressed with it for the money. Nice fit and finish, styling was conservative and appropriate. Excellent value for the money. Down side -- there are a lot of them on the road and supposedly they're doing a mini-overhaul of the car with the 2007 model. During the test drive I really tried to elicit the dreaded 'torque steer', but was unable to really tell a difference (I had a previous car with FWD that I definitely could notice it on hard accelerations from a stop). Navigation system and touch screen very very good. Again, many features for the price.

2. Acura RL -- drove the same day as the TL. Nice interior, very nice ride. Not thrilled with the navigation system and its interface using the large central knob compared to the TL touch screen that I'd just used. Overall, I thought that the TL was a way better value for the difference in price between the two.

3. Lexus GS 300 -- I really, really wanted to like this car. On paper and from what I read, I thought I would really like this car, as it seemed to be a little less sporty and more refined with a quiet, smooth ride. During the test drive, I was completely unimpressed with the acceleration in this car. It really felt slow compared to the TL. Thought the navigation system was inferior to Acuras. Interior and fit and finish were very, very nice. Salesman was very, very rude. Would not answer questions or explain details of nav system while I was driving on a highway because he thought I couldn't pay attention to the road and talk at the same time. Another big factor here is that rumors are that the engines are going to change in the next 1-2 years, making the 300 and 430 inferior. Yuck. I may end up with one of these when they get the 350 and larger engine, but right now it feels underpowered. Sigh. Oh well.

4. BMW 330i -- During the test drive the first thing I noticed was how radically different the steering felt from all other cars I'd tested (even making turns at 5mph in the parking lot). Steering was very stiff in a smooth way, which I liked. Car had a strange 'shake' to it going only 45mph on a smooth road. Interior ergonomics were horrible. I can't believe how bad the cupholders are considering how often they're used (at least in my cars). Seems like a trivial issue, but really is almost a dealbreaker in itself. The salesman explained 'these cars are made for German buyers and concerns, not built for American tastes.' Well, I'm an American, and want a decent cupholder. I'm pretty technologically savvy and played with iDrive for a few minutes. It was a non-nav car that I drove, but I found iDrive to be awful compared to other systems in every other car. I thought the bad reviews its received in the past were probably unjustified prior to actually trying the thing out for myself, but after trying it I have to agree with the reviewers who dislike it. Yuck. Overall, very, very, very unimpressed with the BMW.

4. Infiniti M35 -- Mmmmm, mmmm. Originally, I was not a big fan of the Infiniti interior as I originally sat in a beige interior model and prefer touchscreen nav system to a central 'controller' (like the Acura RL). The light tan/beige interior was way too light and the demo tester already had scuffmarks on the steering wheel. Seems very technologically advanced when playing with all the toys inside from the sound system to the nav system, etc. Once driving, I was even more impressed. I thought the M35 base was a great compromise between great handling and smooth ride. Engine noise was noticable in a good way. Felt very powerful when I drove it. Once I saw a car with black interior I started to like the interior much more. Also is a plus that it is a first year model so major styling changes won't happen for a while. Additionally, I've only ever seen 1 of the 2006 models on the road ever since it was redesigned. Overall, very, very impressed.

I wasn't really interested in Audi (new front grill styling I find unacceptably obnoxious), MB (E series styling doesn't appeal to me and seems that there are owners with many problems), or American brands.

So I had narrowed it down to the TL and the M35. I know they're not usually directly compared to one another, but liked these the best and personally thought they were comparable. $15k price difference between the two (as I would have equipped them both) was a small issue of consideration.

In the end, I decided on the M35 and it will arrive tomorrow for me to pick up. I'm very excited and think I've made the right decision. Just about every M35/45 owner I've heard on the forums seems to feel the same way.

Thanks for everyone who has posted on the forums to help in the purchase decision.

jjacura · August 2005

We should hear more from non-german owners on the passion for the styling of their cars true...but it would also be interesting to hear from a female. I don't recall reading any posts in here from one.

drtravel · August 2005

Infiniti M set a new sales record in July with 2,755 units sold - up from the 2,480 (+11.1%) units sold during the previous record month of June.

hpowders · August 2005

Now how would you know that? Do males press down harder on the keys?

markcincinnati · August 2005

Who's got the list to post this month?

jrock65 · August 2005

I know that you guys were all eagerly waiting for this. Probably kept yourselves up at night.

July 2005 Sales:

E = 5,506
5 = 4,381
STS =
GS = 3,374
M = 2,755
RL = 1,741
A6 =

Will update as they come in.

mariner7 · August 2005

RL's doing better. Chances of M catching GS is much greater than GS catching E or 5. Oh well, so much for Lexus supremacy!

kdshapiro · August 2005

"The salesman explained 'these cars are made for German buyers and concerns, not built for American tastes"

Which I am very happy with. If I wanted an car to American taste I'd get a Ford.

rich545 · August 2005

Actually, I think that's one of the most lame things I've ever heard of a salesman saying. His job is to sell BMW's to Americans so he'd better figure out a way to do that more effectively.

hpowders · August 2005

Okay. All you 4381 great lovers of fine sculpture and purchasers of the beautiful and unique creation known as the E60 this past July which pulverized the GS, M and RL in sales; whose cockpit can control and customize hundreds of functions by the click or turn of a beautiful silvery knob: In unison at the count of three:

Bless you, Bangle!

drtravel · August 2005

Lexus will cannibalize sales from the GS when they introduce their new ES 350 and LS 470. M sales will increase as word of mouth also increases - Infiniti still doesn't have the reputation of the other contenders but that situation will slowly improve. Infiniti projected 2,000 M units a month so they are very happy with the sales thus far.

Will be interesting to see if GS sales taper off big time like they have in the past. I'm expecting the M to overtake the GS in monthly sales within a year.

The E class sales are quite impressive! I currently own an E and will never buy another again - I guess I'm in the minority.

jrock65 · August 2005

July 2005 Sales:

E = 5,506
5 = 4,381
STS = 4,041
GS = 3,374
M = 2,755
RL = 1,741
A6 =

rich545 · August 2005

Wow, look at the E go! I'm actually surprised by both this month and last month's sales for it. I thought interest in it was tailing off, but I guess not!

jrock65 · August 2005

July 2005 Sales:

E = 5,506
5 = 4,381
STS = 4,041
GS = 3,374
M = 2,755
RL = 1,741
A6 = 1,468

Total = 23,266

jrock65 · August 2005

July 2004 Sales:

E = 4,949
5 = 2,668
Seville = 320
GS = 837
M = 292
RL = 310
A6 = 1,887

Total = 11,263

-------------

This segment is really taking off. Sales doubled in one year.

janssen · August 2005

Is there a point to this post? Sounds like you are trying to gloat about something.

Here is what you are crowing about:

BMW 5 series sales 2004: 2,668
Total segment sales 2004: 11,263

Percent of segment 2004: 23.7%

BMW 5 series sales 2005: 4,381
Total segment sales 2005: 23,266

Percent of segment 2005: 18.8%

That, my friend, is a 20.7% drop in their original market share!

Infiniti M sales 2004: 292
Total segment sales 2004: 11,263

Percent of segment 2004: 2.6%

Infiniti M sales 2005: 2,755
Total segment sales 2005: 23,266

Percent of segment 2005: 11.8%

That represents an 354% increase in market share!

So before crowing, check the facts. Then you won't end up eating crow!

While I am sure you are enjoying your great new BMW, there ARE other choices out there, for those who don't always follow the crowd.

It should be obvious that competition is growing in this segment. Where there is profit to be made, entrepreneurs will jump in. I, for one, am glad to have a viable choice.

Cheers!

rich545 · August 2005

That's a really "different" way to see those numbers. Firstly, the new M replaced a disaster of a car so the fact that its sales went up is hardly a surprise. If they couldn't beat the old M sales with the redesigned M they would be in real trouble. That's not taking anything away from Infiniti or the M. It's a nice car no doubt. But the E60 replaced a benchmark in the E39 whereas the M replaced an afterthought in the marketplace. Secondly, market share is only critical if the size of the market stays relatively the same and your slice of the pie gets smaller. That's not the case here. BMW still sold 1,713 more E60's than the did last year. They make money on actual car sales, not market share. The fact is, the market for LPS obviously grew by leaps and bounds year-over-year. So yes, the competition is growing, but so is the segment as a whole. If you think BMW is concerned about selling 1,713 more E60's than they did last year I beg to differ. I'm sure they'll take a drop in market share for a large gain in revenue anyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

mariner7 · August 2005

I think you're right, M is going to overtake GS. Lexus' only hope is the hybrid, 3.5 won't do the trick.

We all expected GS to have a headstart because of Lexus rep and # of dealerships, but M is reeling in GS faster than anyone thought.

rich545 · August 2005

The company that should really be concerned is Audi. The segment doubled, but they actually managed to sell less A6's. I realize that there could be a lot behind those numbers (lower inventory due to the redesign for instance), but still.

hpowders · August 2005

The point is I was just having some fun. Gee I wonder what car you drive?

janssen · August 2005

I drive a 2003 5 series with sport suspension, low miles. Does that upset you?

I now also drive an Infiniti M45 Sport, which is superior in many respects. I hope that bothers you. Should bother every BMW owner, and BMW itself.

Would you like to buy a used BMW?

kdshapiro · August 2005

"I really just can't stand the dealership experience anymore."

You find the same lousy dealership experience with all makes, even Lexus and Acura. My dealership treated me like gold. YMMV.

lexi300 · August 2005

I'm a female. With a 2-month-old white GS300 AWD with the champagne interior. Love it, love it, love it. The styling is phenomenal, inside and out. I wash it every week or two and really enjoy it. The interior is absolutely glove-like.

After looking at BMW (3/5), Mercedes (C/E), and Acura (RL) ...

It had me at hello.

janssen · August 2005

To a much lesser degree with other brands. I have heard about Lexus' excellent dealer training programs. BMW has nothing of the sort. I have been told by BMW NA's customer relations guy that they have tried unsuccessfully for a long, long time to make some improvements at a BMW dealer in SF.

How about those customer satisfaction surveys? I know you can blow them off if you want, but they carry more weight with me than anecdotal reports of 'my dealer...'.

I am glad that you have a good relationship with your dealer. Certainly makes life much easier!

warthog · August 2005

Well, I guess that confirms what we all thought about the GS.

lexi300 · August 2005

I should add that about a month ago, I saw another woman driving the exact same car down the highway. We waved and winked and did a thumbs up to each other.

It's a girl thing; you wouldn't understand.

warthog · August 2005

I'm afraid I understand all too well.

janssen · August 2005

If you understand the 'girl thing' could you please help me?

warthog · August 2005

What I understand is that the poster bought the car based solely on its styling. "t had me at hello," she says, and mentions only the colors of the interior and exterior. Her purchase had nothing to do with anything else. That's what I understand.

janssen · August 2005

Oh, I'm sorry! I was just teasing about my stupidity with the fairer sex. I need help!

hpowders · August 2005

I don't feel insecure about Infiniti's success.
I drove an M45 sport. Did not know what all the fuss was about. The vehicle felt heavy. The steering felt artificial. The "wood" looked like cardboard. The engine sounded too loud.
The styling reminded me of an Altima.
Having driven BMW's exclusively since 1993 and after reading so many good things about the M45, when I finally got to drive one, I was disappointed.
I'm sure they will improve, but BMW will not exactly be standing still.

bjbird2 · August 2005

The September 05' issue of Consumer Reports ranks luxury sedans as follows;
1. Infiniti M35
2. Acura TL
3. Toyota Avalon
4. MB E320
5. BMW530
6. Audi A6
7. Luxus ES330
8. Cadillac STS
9. Acura RL
10. Jaguar S-Type
11. Lexus GS300
12. Volvo S80
13. Saab 9-5

I know CR is not an enthusiast's magazine, but as someone pointed out on this forum, they are probably a lot more objective, not influenced by ad revenue, etc, than a lot of the enthusiast publications.
Interesting that of the 6 sedans they tested this month, the Avalon is the fastest, and gets the best mileage. They did say that the Avalon is not a sports sedan, that it lacks agility with the soft suspension.
I know that some of these cars are not part of this forum, but it's interesting to see how the test placed all of them in the rankings.

brightness04 · August 2005

How many of those E's are wagons?? I see more E wagons than E sedans around where I live. E wagon competes more with the RX and FX than with GS and M.

lexusguy · August 2005

BMW may not be too nervous yet, but perhaps Lexus should be. Lexus is the one delivering hype, while Infiniti delivers results. The fight between GS and M and IS350 and the next G should be very interesting to watch. I think the big question for Infiniti is what the heck can be done with the Q45? The LS is the car Lexus has down to a science. It will be much harder to challenge than the GS, which has been a failure most of its life.

carnaught · August 2005

I own both ('04 TL and "06 M35 Sport) and all I can say is, you get what you pay for. The TL is a good looking and feature laden car, but feels hollow and mine, at least (with the other three Acuras I've owned) has developed many rattles, buzzes and vibrations. Others with the car report they have the same problem and many say they don't. The M35, on the other hand, has remained rock solid in feel and reliability thus far, now on my 5th month of ownership. It is true, IMHO, you do get what you pay for, but both are reasonable values in today's market.

hpowders · August 2005

Whatever you drive doesn't upset me at all. Why should it? I know that BMW is the "Ultimate Driving Machine." Infiniti has come a long way but they are not there yet. Even Road & Track places the 545i ahead of the M45 Sport for "serious driving."
I'm glad that Infiniti is making strides because due to the competition, BMW will also improve to become the "Ultimate Galaxy Driving Machine."

docnukem · August 2005

BMW will also improve to become the "Ultimate Galaxy Driving Machine."

Well, sure, anything can corner like it's on rails around a black hole.

But how will it perform on the 1/4 parsec?

hpowders · August 2005

Very good! I'm glad someone around here has a sense of humor!

lexi300 · August 2005

Yeah. It's a chick car.

But I do love it.

lexi300 · August 2005

""What I understand is that the poster bought the car based solely on its styling. "t had me at hello," she says, and mentions only the colors of the interior and exterior. Her purchase had nothing to do with anything else. That's what I understand.""

No, the lines had me too. I like the new L-finesse styling. A lot a lot. They lost the extra little taillight thingies on the backside. The car is closer to the road -- like it's stuck to it. The bump strip on the side is way low. The headlights are assertive. This car is going someplace. And the inside is by far and away the best interior I've seen. I love the NON-I-DRIVE touchscreen, the sculpted seats, the greyish-brownish accent around the dash, the clear white speedometer, all that.

Many years ago, before I went through my SUV phase (with a 4Runner), I used to drive a 1990 Celica with a stick. This car reminds me of a very refined, but alluring version of that car. All the best traits, but with leather and class.

Oh, and I should add, I did check out the engine. I know it's not as powerful as several of the other cars in its class, but it accelerates plenty quickly for me. When I test drove it, I took it out on the highway and around town and gunned it. The salesman was pinned in his seat. I did some emergency stops and some imaginary swerves around cones, and it handled like a dream for me.

I also was really sold on the fact that this is the first sedan from Lexus that is AWD. I live in an area that gets snow, and didn't want to move from on-demand 4WD to RWD.

I'm getting great mileage (about 28), and very happy. All these things mattered to me.

But the style helped quite a bit.

warthog · August 2005

Nice afterthought. Enjoy your car.

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