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Comments
Artificial steering? Have you read all the complaints about BMW's active steering? My 2003 is better than the 2005.
Why would you place quotes around "wood"? Your condescension towards real rosewood strikes me as a bit ignorant. I made guitars. The only thing not good about this trim is that it is not a great substitute for the fake grey crap in the 5 series. Get a little more educated before you diss, please.
Yes, BMW will not be standing still. They will be insulting their customers, watching their reliability CONTINUE to decline (as well as their market share), and they will be backpedaling from iDrive, active steering, and Bangle.
You, my friend, obviously are never going to like anything about a non-BMW. That is your problem. Nice car, but not perfect. Go brag about your iDrive.
You are correct on several points! First, the old M sales are hardly a benchmark to use for comparison. Second, I am sure BMW is happy with increasing sales numbers overall.
However, I would venture to say that the changes in market share for both BMW and Mercedes signify that the other manufacturers here (with the exception of Audi) are making significant inroads into BMW/Mercedes' previously dominated market segment. Of course, it is hard to be the innovator, and easier to copy someone else's products, but both of these companies pride themselves on being on the leading edge. I am not so sure that is the case right now, partly because Infiniti has set its sights on both the 3 series and 5 series style, form and function, and because the BMW/Mercedes brands are suffering some setbacks:
1. Reliability has been a big Mercedes problem. This time around I didn't even look at Mercedes. In addition, they are no longer providing the maintenance for 4 years/50k miles. A big long-term problem, IMO. BMW reliability has suffered to a lesser degree.
2. I don't think I would be the first to comment on BMW's attitude towards customers. Of course, this might change by dealer, but I know several people who have dealt with SF Bay area dealers, and are very unhappy either before or after the sale. Since sales have always been good here, I guess the dealers don't HAVE to be decent people. But wouldn't they WANT to be?
My personal experience? After the first 7 or 8 times bringing my car in (first six months of owning it), I stopped getting those 'every time' calls from the CSI people (the follow-up people who keep an eye on service). Since bad ratings affect the dealership's revenue, I am pretty suspicious that they changed my phone number, or otherwise altered records so that the next 8 times I couldn't be contacted.
3. Items like iDrive, Active Steering and Styling have gotten mixed reviews. Certainly the people at the top make better targets than the middle of the pack, but BMW does not seem so responsive to me, knowing they have a stable clientele who will always return.
Honestly, I like the concept of iDrive! One button to control many items without moving your hand trying to find all sorts of controls. Especially given the increasing complexity of cars. Great idea! But the execution leaves me cold.
The styling? I didn't like it much at first. It has grown on me to an extent, and I think it IS aimed at a younger crowd. My GF likes it more than my new car. But she actually says it looks " ugly and mean". But she likes it. Go figure! Maybe that is why she likes me.....
And I respect companies who try to push the envelope. Better than sitting on your laurels, especially in a field where new innovations are frequent.
But back to the ownership experience...I really just can't stand the dealership experience anymore. I tried out a new 545, and the frickin' salesperson wouldn't even let me take it off the highway! What the heck were they thinking??? I was parked in their lot with my 2003 5 series, obviously a BMW customer, and I guess he assumed I had nowhere else to go.
I think this attitude will do more to harm BMW than any specific product. And when a BMW owner (there are a few on this board) shows the same attitude, it makes me wonder. Is one buying into elitism? Is one a better person because of a BMW?
Overall, BMW and Merc should worry a bit about other manufacturers establishing a brand and taking some of the market. It means they are losing sales to other brands.
Alright, too long. But thanks for the comments!
I got my limits too! And I have a very short fuse for poor quality control!
Amazing how dealers are different. Mine let me take a 330i, 545i and X5 for test drives all by myself for as long as I wanted. I am a long term customer there. Each time I came into the dealership for my next test drive, he tossed the car's keys at me. I guess he knew I was a "sure thing."
Ferraris drive better, have better styling, are more distinctive, sound and feel better, and are certainly faster .They hold their resale value much better. So we should probably both agree that the BMW motto is cute, but not entirely accurate.
And can you say without hesitation that you would rather drive to the limit with a BMW than a Porsche GT2, or Carrera 4S? That would be a tough choice for many people.
Of course, there are not many people who would sacrifice that much for the 'ultimate' driving experience of these $200K to $500K cars.
So perhaps we could weigh all the pros and cons, since no car is perfect.
And they are in the shop every other day and cost 10 times what a 545 cost.
"And can you say without hesitation that you would rather drive to the limit with a BMW than a Porsche GT2, or Carrera 4S?"
You are comparing cars in two different financial and market segments. If you have $60K to spend and a family to haul around, my choice is the 545. If you have 200K to spend, sure a GT2 is a nice touch, as you probably have a family hauler already in the garage.
"Heavy? Beat the BMW in several road test slaloms, and when it lost it just barely lost. So the BMW must be heavy. Artificial steering? Have you read all the complaints about BMW's active steering? My 2003 is better than the 2005."
Slalom means nothing. The G35 beat out the new 2006, just barely in a number of performance measures according to a recent magazine comparo. Yet the BMW beat the G35 on the track. HP means nothing and slalom means nothing in terms of how the car really handles. I haven't driven the E60 with active steering so I can't comment, but what I've read and talked to people about, everybody who drives it who is not a journalist, get's used to it. More than gets used to it, wonders how one ever did without it.
I'm not an end-all, be-all BMW supporter, but the sales figures don't lie. They are doing something right. Regardless of their standing by CR and the rags, the public is buying. The old expression, you can fool some of the people...etc. BMW/Mercedes can't be fooling everybody at the same time, there has to be a reason people are buying them over the "so-called" top rated vehicles.
Yes, I would certainly choose a Porsche Carrera or 911 if money was no object. But alas....
Like I said, I'm not on BMW's payroll. They had better get their reliability house in order because I will not stand for quality control headaches from a 60k vehicle as much as I like the driveability of their vehicles.
IMHO, you're fooling yourself if you think that image and prestige have nothing to do with MB and BMW unit sales vs Infiniti.
I think image and prestige are a major factor in MB and BMW sales. It must be; their reliablity is horrible and their interior styling is hideous :sick: I had the privilege of attending a BMW Grand Opening Event a few weeks ago. I for one like the new Bangle exteriors but the interiors are disgusting! One could not pay me to own one of these vehicles - but that is just my opinion and I am not into status symbols. But that is how status symbols work, as long as others can see you driving down the street with the "correct" badge, exterior appearance and name are all that matter.
I understand it's your opinion. I think you've fooled yourself into believing people see no intrinsic value in German cars other than to spend to money. Maybe it's true within your circle. Maybe it's also true that people buy Lexus products because they believe no one will notice they just spend a bundle of money on a rebadged Toyota that has ho-hum styling with interiors that drive me up a wall.
To each their own, I'm glad we all have choices.
Au contraire, I do see German cars as different from Japanese (and Lexus in particular), and certainly recognize that some people prefer more sportiness, or different styling, from what Lexus offers. And that's all that matters to some people...prestige has nothing to do with their choices. But such people imho are in the minority. I think that status/image matters to at least some degree to most luxury buyers, including lps buyers. And to some, it is of primary concern.
So I recognize that sportiness, styling, etc are real factors, and that prestige isn't everything.
You, however, seem in denial that status and prestige have anything at all to do with the sales performance of BMW and MB vs say Infiniti.
So if I'm in denial that status has nothing to do with MB/BMW sales, you've convinced yourself it has everything to do with it.
I would not say BMW has reliability problems, just as I would not say Toyota produces the perfect car.
You clearly left out a word here..."reliability". The German cars are inferior to the Japanese in that respect sure, but as the sales numbers prove not everyone cares about this as much as you do. There are other things about a car than what CR says about it. For CR to put an Avalon over all those other cars says volumes about what they look for in a vehicle.
When Toyota and Lexus discovers the things that make these unreliable cars appeal to so many people then they'll have something, until then they aren't worth mentioning, especially Toyotas. They aren't luxury cars anyway and have nothing to do with this board.
Infiniti on the other hand is very, very close to doing just that, something that eludes Lexus when it comes to feel/styling/sportiness. We'll see if the new IS changes that for them.
M
While you are certainly entitled to your opinion of Lexus interior design, lets try not to drag up the old "rebadged Toyota" argument, ok? I know its an easy, cheap shot to take at Lexus, but it makes you lose a bit of credibility. Toyota has just as much of a right to make a car that costs $50K, or $70K, as M-B. Until very recently, they've been doing just that in Japan. Lexus exists because Toyota knows that the North American market is extremely badge concious, and that we wont buy cars that cost $40K or more from a company that also sells econo-compacts. (See: VW Phaeton). No NA market Toyota offers the 4.3L V8, and no NA market Toyota has access to the LS or GS platform, just as GM wont let Chevy use Cadillac's Sigma stuff. Sure, one can make the argument about the ES and RX, but one could make the very same argument about Maybach and the S class.
How so? They don't share a platform.
M
M
M
Well they aren't but they're better than the Maybach in the U.S. and most foreign markets. Both companies were on something to think they'd move 1000 units each at 300K+ prices.
M
So if I'm in denial that status has nothing to do with MB/BMW sales, you've convinced yourself it has everything to do with it.
Please show me where I suggested that status is the only reason that every MB/BMW owner has bought their car? I think I have stated repeatedly that imho status is one of the reasons for most buyers.
Please show me where I suggested that Lexus owners don't care about status? Well I can speak from personal experience...status does matter to me, and that's one reason we bought an LX not a TLC, and one reason the LX probably won't be replaced by a Sienna.
Whereas you have trouble admitting that status is a factor with at least some MB/BMW buyers.
It does seem odd to compare the cars compared.
Maybe now someone will undertake a test of the Cadillac STS AWD with the Chrysler 300C AWD. :shades:
Let's keep the group as broad as possible, espeically since this forum seems to be one of THE most active of all the forums.
Anyway lexi300, of course your impressions are 100% correct -- they are your impressions, after all. I can only pick one little nit -- your comment about the interior leads me to believe you did not spend any time looking at the new A6 which also has a fabulous interior (and some will argue "best in class" interior.)
I was very impressed with the Lexus, too (and I did NOT drive it, but I did spend time in one at the auto show -- it was beautiful.)
When it came down to it, though, my choices were the M35X and the A6 3.2. Although I eventually came to get the A6, I had originally put my money down on the M35X -- another car with a terrific interior.
Glad to read that you like the performance -- overall, most of the guys (not gender specific) who write about the Lexus give it positive points for everything but performance claiming that it is too isolating and bland.
The exterior styling is a huge improvement -- boost the power about 10% and I would think Lexus would be able to fear less from the M.
Keep participating. You are a breath of fresh air. :shades:
I went with the M45. I have noticed my friends certainly have checked out the car pretty thoroughly - quality of materials in the interior as much as anything else (well, of course, I only let them be passengers!) The Infiniti is doing well, so far, but does not have the immediate cachet of the German brands. So what? I like it and also like have a less common car.
Most people I know don't think like that. The ones who really don't don't have to impress anybody, whether they drive a $300K rolls or a $70K BMW. When you are out to impress someone you like to think you have "status". Status my friend, syswei, is something you yourself accord to another.
I cannot accord myself "status".
/ot
Rather than Germans vs Japanese, it's more prestige (MB, BMW, Lexus) vs challengers (Infiniti, Acura, Audi). Looking forward to one prestige (GS) getting knocked off by a challeger (M) sometime in the future. So it can be done! Not too often in this segment though!
lexusguy, word is Nissan finally decided to go ahead with the next Q. It should be finally a player in its segment. Acura is said to develop a car above RL, with V8 and optional V10 (meant for next NSX), a proper rwd from Honda at last. These 2 probably will give LS a run for its money.
But not the best driving car there is.
Ok, I agree that HP isn't the ONLY measurement, and neither is slalom, but they help in the overall picture. Yet, of all the previous reviews, when a beemer won these measurements, people who owned or preferred BMW's would tout these numbers. Now the numbers don't serve their purpose so well when the M comes to town, or when other brands compete. So you can have your cake and eat it too?
These road tests mean SOMETHING. And the BMW isn't always the winner at the track. But why test at the track? Not too many of us drive our LPS's at the track. I take mine to some twisties, but never to the track. So I am happy that mine did better than the 5 series on the slalom. BTW, I also test drove mine extensively, compared it to my 2003 5 series and the newest 5 series on the same roads. Pretty darned close!
I agree that the sales figures don't lie. A higher percent of those in the market for a LPS are choosing other than BMW. And how can we talk about the ultimate driving machine when the E class is outselling it? Do those figures lie?
Acura + 16%
Lexus + 12%
Cadillac + 10%
BMW + 7%
Infiniti + 7%
Volvo + 3%
Mercedes Benz -1%
Audi -10%
Lincoln -13%
Jaguar -16%
Plus, Land Rover and Hummer were both down -20% each. Porsche was up +14%, and Ferrari up +8%. In 2005, Infiniti has further padded its success, and so have Cadillac and BMW. Mercedes holding their own, and scratching their way back a little.
Source: JD Power, Autodata
I think some of the reasons include...
1. Our population is aging, especially with the Baby Boomers. There is a widening between the have's and have not's in our economy, and sales in luxury segments are somewhat immune from economic downturns.
2. Analysts say the premium market is driven by 3 main factors--status, perceived quality, and value. To a great extent, luxury cars are a fashion statement.
3. The choices at the entry level luxury segment continue to improve, including choices of crossover luxury SUVs. See G, TSX, TL, ES, 3, C, A4, XC90, RX, MDX, X3....
4. 70 to 90% of these cars (depending on brand) are leased. This allows people to drive cars that they couldn't otherwise afford with their disposable income. Plus, once you start leasing, unless you are saving a lot of money, it tends to lock you into a leasing cycle. Thus, when it's time to re-lease, there is the temptation to pay $50 more per month and upgrade.
But there are clearly some losers in this segment...Jaguar offended loyalists with their weak attempts at the entry level, Lincoln has stale product, Hummer and Land Rover slipped with other trucks, and perception of reduced quality is a factor with some European brands. Audi is on a bit of thinning ice and the next couple years will be critical for them.
Uh this is America the land of indebtedness - most folks have no problem whatsoever living in debt up to their eyebrows. Most folks are way over-extended in housing, plastic, cars, etc. All the more easier with leases - all folks have to do is make a monthly payment.
The very fact of so many folks buying above their means makes the current status/prestige discussion very amusing :shades:
:confuse: How so? :confuse:
The 5 cars CR tested (RL, A6, STS, M, GS) ARE the very cars this thread is all about Where is the oddity? The inclusion of the Avalon is a clearly annotated Large Sedan Extra, printed at the end of the LPS review as an add-on - CR would have tested it anyway!
All the reports I've read are saying 2010.
Relatedly, if short term interest rates rise, people who've financed homes with ARMs will have to come up with more cash than they expected for interest.
1. Styling - good looks
2. Reliability
3. Pricing - getting a good deal - more value for the money invested
4. Comfort
5. Handling
6. Performance
7. Previous experiences with a specific brand/model
8. What the "so called" experts say about the competition
9. What their friends/associates/family have experienced with a model/brand
10. Prestige
There are others, but the above represent what a cross-section of consumers use in guiding their purchasing activities.
If anyone says that prestige does not play some role in luxury car buyers' decision-making processes, then something is wrong somewhere with that individual. All of the above play a role, to a greater or lesser extent, depending upon the individual purchasing the vehicle.
I use all of the above when making decisions to purchase a vehicle, and more. After one explores, logically, the benefits of one vehicle over another (objectivity), personal tastes/motivations eventually play a role (subjectivity).
Enough said.
SO LET'S AGREE TO AGREE ON AT LEAST THIS ISSUE - OK?
My European boss once commented that many Americans are "house poor" and "car poor". His point was that Europeans spend a smaller percentage of income on houses, and cars, and more on what they consider higher priorities, such as vacations, clothes, restaurants, art and culture.
Thanks for the post.
Yet more proof that FoMoCo cares not a whit for this segment.
Yes, they do. Then leave the editorializing about subjective matters out of the equation. Most people who drive the "Ultimate Driving Machine" understand it's about road feel, control and balance and luxury second. It's this same road feel and control which helps it win at the track -- even though the competition might post better numbers in other performance measurements.
do you think they use any special mind modifying radio waves emanating from their ultralux looking surfaces?
ksso
By far :confuse: Subjective statements like this confuse me :sick: How does one go about "proving" this? Does Lexus use better trees to get their wood from? Is the plastic in the Audi better than the plastic in other cars? Is the Lexus vinyl superior to other cars vinyl? Does the Audi leather come from better fed cows? I could go on and on with such questions
Interior styling is subjective. I dispise the BMW interiors; and in my own personal no one can take it away from me opinion the Audi interior is not much better :surprise: Nor do I (me, myself, and I) like the GS interior either. THEREFORE the interiors of THESE cars are NOT better by far:shades:
Do not think I am in any way, shape, form or regard, less than delighted with my Audi A6. It is just that with several test drives of the Cadillac CTS, STS and SRX, the Infiniti M35X, the BMW 5 and now 5x, the Mercedes C320 AWD and about 3,000 miles on my own A6, plus enjoying the driving and riding in my wife's new X3 and the sitting in but not driving the Acura and Lexus, that the differences have -- subjectively, 'cause that's all I can represent and even vaguely remember -- narrowed substantially between these cars.
Competition has clearly improved the breed.
OK I am an "uncommonly" (perhaps) loyal Audi owner -- but, much to Audi's dismay and chagrin -- I would be quite happy to be living with the BMW 530xi (especially since it can be had with a manual), the Infiniti M35X, probably the Cadillac STS AWD (if I didn't have to pay for it) or even the one's I simply sat in at the auto show (Acura and Lexus AWD.)
The differences are in some ways so subtle (especially given the ways that these cars can be optioned -- to virtually tailor them just about any way you want) I almost pity the car companies. Apparently only the Acura and Lexus have escaped being called "German-like" -- yet the Acura has received great praise from the likes of Car and Driver and others.
Only the "poor" Lexus is "called" for being too perfect, too luxurious, etc. There are times when I can think "Luxury: bring it on." And, I am in no way displeased with the LQ (luxury quotient) of my A6 with Premium leather and Premium sound and all the other do dads I have optioned on mine.
I love the debate we all have here -- and I guess if prestige is a big factor, then I am in deep weeds since "the A6, even the new one, 'can't get no respect'."
Since I was using my own money, I voted for the Audi -- but like I said, I'm not proud, if someone wants to donate a new Acrua or Infiniti or BMW AWD LPS car to "my cause," I am confident, I will enjoy the drive and the ride.
No one is posting here -- yet, or I have missed it -- that has a 530xi (either manual or automatic). Right now (but I am not in the market anymore for about 2+ years), that is the car (without regard to cost) that when equipped with a stick shift, looks like the one to beat in this class. If forced to take the automatic, I'd stick with the Audi, however, since it feels a bit less confining.
To each his/her own.
We must be in the golden age of LPS cars -- there are, practically speaking, no bad cars in this bunch.
And that is exactly why I selected the 545i after also driving the GS430 and M45 in this particular price category.
Road feel and balance will always be of primary importance to me. I couldn't give a darn about the interior. Just give me a radio, some ac and a hard-wired Valentine One.