Luxury Performance Sedans

lexusguy · August 2005

The new BMW 10-cylinder is a lot like a Ferrari engine. Gobs of horsepower, a screaming red line, not so much torque. To get AMG torque, they'd have to go with forced induction, as AMG does with most of their engines.

cmybimmergo · August 2005

I like the child seat thing very much

OTOH, the kid in the car seat probably isn't opening the door. It's older (but not too much older) kids who tend to open the door with too much enthusiasm.

Disposable sticky rubber strips that you can apply to all protruding points or the door edge of adjoining cars.

Does anyone remember that back in the 70s or so cars had rubber strips along the sides? They were right at door-contact height, and served to protect against the Dreaded Ding. But like all good ideas, they went the way of the dinosaurs.

I wonder whether the state of the interior of the car is a better indicator of whether the driver is likely to ding his neighbor...a neat freak probably wouldn't but if it's messy, watch out.

mqueen1 · August 2005

My one month old M35x received a huge ding in the door. I was parking at work in a garage that was designed during the 70's as each space has enough room for an economy car. I knew when I walked up to the car that the SUV parked on the passenger side was too freaking close, but I was too lazy to check out that side of the car. I saw the ding when I got home and am pretty pissed about it. On the other hand it is now easier to drive and park it now that it is less than perfect. I now park in a spot that has a garage support post near the driver side, and as a previous poster mentioned park with my driver door next to the passenger door of the other vehicle. Odds are pretty good of no passenger being in cars that are in an employee lot. One other thing I have done every once in awhile, if I think there is a possiblility of the car I am parking next to pulling out and clipping my car I will take a picture of the other vehicles license plate with my phone (just in case)

bondguy1 · August 2005

Just drop the GS...it's got not one class leading feature...it's slow,small and did the worst in the CR comparison. Other than Lexus loyalists, who in their right mind would consider this car when you've got choices out there like M35, Audi, RL and BMW. I think Lexus didn't realize as most of these car companies didn't realize how tough this car segment would heat up this year. Should be good for shopping though.

merc1 · August 2005

To get AMG torque, they'd have to go with forced induction, as AMG does with most of their engines.

Have you seen the new 6.3L AMG V8? 510hp and like 464lb-ft of torque, naturally aspirated. I'm reading on other boards where the supercharger on the current V8 is too tall for future MB's to pass Euro pedestrian safety regs. The hardest point of the engine must be a certain distance from the hood to allow for more crush space if a pedestrian dents the hood. That and it is lot to keep it up to date emission wise from 2007 onwards in Europe. The specs on the new V8 read like a racing engine, and its probably no coincidence that its tech-heavy like the new V10 from BMW.

M

hpowders · August 2005

If you take a photo of an SUV's license plate that you have to park next to and you come back later and have a ding, how do you prove that it was the specific SUV that you photographed which dinged you?

rich545 · August 2005

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8840360/

I knew Mercedes was having some problems, but not this many.

rich545 · August 2005

One interesting part is though we were just talking about how well the E Class sells it can't be all that good. Sales for the E and C Classes are apparently down 30 to 35% for the past year if the article is accurate. The article's take on BMW is interesting as well.

carnaught · August 2005

:.....the kid in the car seat probably isn't opening the door."

No, but the parent who is unfastening and lifting the kid is bent down and his/her hinee may slam the door into your precious ride ;<( .

syswei · August 2005

http://asklexus.caranddriver.com/

cmybimmergo · August 2005

Yeah, yeah, I know. (And in my own case, I was schlepping not only the kid but an oxygen tank attached to her that was like lugging around a dead body. And while we had a handicapped pass, the spaces were not the cavernous affairs they are now. It's a good thing I was [and am] a small person able to negotiate very tight spots...) But it takes all the fun out of the thread to get too technical. :P

cmybimmergo · August 2005

On the other hand it is now easier to drive and park it now that it is less than perfect.

Exactly. Once you've been initiated, subsequent dings sting less.

But (and let's not get technical here

), some areas make a bigger deal out of carpooling than others, and if you live in one of them, those passenger doors will get a workout too.

bartalk3 · August 2005

The real luxury car is a 1995 Dodge Neon with 135,000 miles. How is that a luxury car? Because the owner has the luxury of not caring where he parks or what happens to the car. That's real luxury. That's freedom!

What's not a luxury car? All the cars on this board, because one is putting $50,000 down on the street every day and worried to death about all the damage that can be done to it. That is no luxury!

hpowders · August 2005

Unfortunately, much of this is true. But when I get behind the wheel of my 545i, it seems to almost even out.

lexusguy · August 2005

By the same token, you can live in a house full of fiberboard wal-mart furniture so you dont have to worry about theft, floods, etc. Dings, paint scratches, brake dust, rock chips, etc. are all annoying, and to a certain extent all inevitable if you drive the car long enough. Putting 25K or more a year on a '95 Neon, on the other hand, would be a lot worse.

cdnpinhead · August 2005

Well, it's been interesting reading about the "ding" situation.

I buy my cars & keep them for 4 - 10 years. Dings happen. I drive a lot, too. That's why I enjoy cars that can do it well.

I'll not say more. I put a whole paragraph in here about getting a life and such, but it's gone now.

Would you rather look at the car, or drive it? That's the question that I've caused more than a few discussions asking, in several boards. Is it an art object (see, I left out the French equivalent), or a device to help you get somewhere and/or have have a lot of fun doing it?

Yeah, it ought to look good, but. . . The reality is that if you use a car every day & drive it 15 - 20K per year. . .it'll get dinged. Duh.

Do you drive it the way it was meant to be used, or do you park it, hoping for an appropriately appreciative response from some third party?

If I saw an M3 or M5 that was dinged all over, complete with bugs aplenty on the forward surfaces, I'd want to sit with the driver and discuss where they'd been, and how they liked it, and a (possibly) better route the next time. Drivers enjoy comparing notes. The folks who appreciate art probably look at it differently.

Note that I said if, not when.

bartalk3 · August 2005

The analogy (between a cheap house and a cheap car) doesn't quite work. The logic isn't quite there. For one, a house appreciates, a car depreciates. Also, I don't know anybody with a million-dollar house who sits around worrying about it being damaged (as people here are worried about their cars being dinged).

At the moment (before I drop $50,000 on one of these cars), I have a '97 Maxima with 91,000 miles, and have the luxury of parking it in the closest space to wherever I'm going, without checking out the cars on either side, doing some demographic analysis on the driver, hypothetizing about whether there's a passenger, checking out the interior of the other cars looking for car seats, taking pictures of the license plates of the adjoining cars, doing DNA screening of the drivers adjacent, etc. Frankly, I don't care who's parking next to me. That's luxury. Of course, when I succumb to the big $50,000 temptation, like the rest of you, I'll be parking a half mile away from my destination, and staying home when it acid rains or hails (God forbid).

hpowders · August 2005

I WISH I could only park a half a mile away.
By the way, how can I do the DNA screening? Walmart has a kit for that?
Sometimes the photos don't come out because I gotta snap the plate while facing the sun.

greenbelt · August 2005

FWIW

I think that adding the E only as the AMG would make sense for the 'performance' nature of the forum. The E350 which accounts for 80% of MB's E class sales, is NOT a 'performance' sedan, though it might drive 'nice' by some folk's standards.

docnukem · August 2005

I may be misreading things, but I assumed that all the ding posts (and I know mine were) were all intended as tongue-in-cheek/less-than-completely-serious. While I do try to park where the car will not run a greater than average chance of damage, I am not blind to the fact that it will get dinged. When I drove an Accord with 80000 miles, I did the same thing (although to a slightly lesser degree).

My wife DOES think I'm nuts, though.

nvbanker · August 2005

"Here's an interesting article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8840360/

I knew Mercedes was having some problems, but not this many."

Great article - and I just took the S-Class off my list of possible Sedans to buy. :sick:

hpowders · August 2005

Well it seems a lot of folks don't seem to mind being struck by that Bangle board as sales of the E60 are up 15.8% since September 2004.
The car is simply gawjis!

nvbanker · August 2005

"If I saw an M3 or M5 that was dinged all over, complete with bugs aplenty on the forward surfaces, I'd want to sit with the driver and discuss where they'd been, and how they liked it, and a (possibly) better route the next time. Drivers enjoy comparing notes. The folks who appreciate art probably look at it differently."

You have a great outlook cdn. Cars are made to drive and be driven. It should be about function. However, I must admit - I get my bugs washed off quickly and a lot - and I fix dings. BUT, I do drive the cars, and park anywhere and take my chances. Generally, I do ok.

greenbelt · August 2005

I think this is one of the better assessments of the state of the problems at MB. The new CEO has his work cut out for him.

U.S. year-to-date sales data indicate that the market here has finally figured out that the MB isn't such a smart buy (or lease) these days. Can you imagine going to a cocktail party in the Hamptons and bragging about your new MB? I can just see the polite smiles and hear the quick "excuse-me's".

Finally, the caché has crashé.

nvbanker · August 2005

All of my friends who have recent S-Classes, are pretty angry about the problems they are chronically having. Some of them have dumped them for a Lexus.

lexusguy · August 2005

Yeah I'm pretty much the same way. At least with my LS anyway. If I need to park the XK I may look for a "safe" spot, but its not something I'm going to pull my hair out over. "The things you own end up owning you".

jjacura · August 2005

I enjoyed ALL the DING posts even the tongue-in-cheek stuff. (and hpowders...Walgreens currently have the DNA kits on sale!) Strangely enough my last car, a 2000 TL went 74,000 miles without a ding. The secret....retirement.

However for 30 years before that I parked in the same lot where we were stacked like sardines and dings and even bumper bruises happened routinely. My company reimbursed me for parking and mileage but not body damage. :sick:

bartalk3 · August 2005

You guys missed the real ding danger: SUPERMARKET CARTS! I parked my car at the downhill end of the parking lot far away from other cars one windy day at the supermarket, and I was hit by a runaway cart which caught the wind and went wild. My car looked like it had been hit by another car.

Bill from my body shop: $1,100.

I told my insurance agent that this must be the first with something like this, and he said, "Are you kidding? This happens every day."

My advice: never park downhill in a supermarket parking lot.

jeff721 · August 2005

What is an LPS?

jjacura · August 2005

Good reminder about the carts bartalk3...happened to my wifes Accord...she parked next to a cart CORRAL on a windy day and one got loose and nailed her door...we discovered the damage at home and it took a while to figure out what hit her.

jjacura · August 2005

You are in the LPS forum Jeff

hpowders · August 2005

I'll be at Walgreens tomorrow at 8AM for the DNA kit. I won't even need to read the instructions. I watch CSI every week.

jjacura · August 2005

good one but now can you advise how to intercept an unattended 6 MPH Shopping Cart? :shades:

hpowders · August 2005

You can't. Best thing is to park as far away as you can from the supermarket itself. People do not like long walks. So the further away you are from the store, the fewer shopping carts there are to deal with.
I also shop when most folks aren't there-very early in the morning.

cmybimmergo · August 2005

can you advise how to intercept an unattended 6 MPH Shopping Cart?

That's what the force field is for. (May the Force be with you??? :P )

merc1 · August 2005

I knew Mercedes was having some problems, but not this many.

Well I've read all that before, its pretty much more of the same. I think the union will survive and prosper after 2005, just my opinion. Provided they get the right folks in place to run things. Mercedes for one has already stopped the quarterly losses by posting the thinnest of profits last quarter. The real problem on the Benz side of the house is Smart, which should be dumped or partnered up with someone. I don't think the latter will happen and former should, but won't either.

Where I don't agree with the article is where they're saying there is no synergy between the two companies. Chrylser has the hottest cars they've had in the last 20+ years because of Mercedes. That simply can't be overlooked imo.

M

merc1 · August 2005

U.S. year-to-date sales data indicate that the market here has finally figured out that the MB isn't such a smart buy (or lease) these days.

Not really. What they suggest is that the E-Class just got a whole lot of new competition (even some internal competition in the form of the CLS) and the S-Class is in its last model year. If there was this big downturn against Mercedes in general, the M, SLK, and CLS wouldn't be selling as good as they are. They're way up over last year (M,SLK) and/or are within a few hundred units of the yearly goal (10K) in just 7 months, the CLS.

The E-Class seems to be bouncing back. I think for the E to have kept a first or second place spot in sales with a half-dozen newer cars having hit the market in a year's time is very impressive. Is some of that status? Most definitely but status alone can't alone stem the tide against so many newer cars. The next big thing is the new S-Class. If it doesn't go over well then MB does indeed have a problem because a lot is riding on it. I don't think the R-Class is going to set any sales records though. Lets see what that facelift brings the E for 2007.

M

cstiles · August 2005

Yes, the ding repair works very well. The key is---they have to be able to get behind the body panel in order to push the dent out. This is usually not a problem with most door panels, and even fenders or quarterpanels.

I watched this guy use a special tool (a long rod with a L-shaped tip) to access my quarterpanel through the rear tail lens assembly, and literally push the dent out on my A4. You can't even tell there was ding there. Same thing with a dent I had on my fender on my Civic Si. He went through the wheel well.

Body shops have to be a bit concerned, since this takes business away from them. But anytime you don't have to repaint a body panel, all the better. And all the cheaper.

Good luck with your new GS. My wife's RL also has a Diamond Pearl (white) exterior and a parchment leather interior. A friend's wife also had a previous generation GS in this same combination. And another friend has a girlfriend who drives a GX470 with the same combo. At the risk of stereotyping, seems women prefer that color combination over men???? Sure is easier to keep clean, that's for sure.

lexusguy · August 2005

I agree about Chrysler. The article mentions Chryslers turn around, but the only hot products that Chrysler has right now use M-B derived platforms and M-B transmitions. What I think that means is that they have to be given access to at least some current M-B technology. The first real synergy product was the Crossfire, which is stuck with a '97 platform, recirculating ball steering, and M-B's old 215hp 3.2L V-6. Thats just not good enough to compete with the likes of Z, GTO, Mustang GT, etc.

I'm not sure if there's much of a market for the R-class or not, but BMW seems to think so, as they are hard at work on a competitor.

lexi300 · August 2005

Good to hear about ding repair. Don't know if I'll need it, but I've got it if I do. I'm usually not one to go with additional warrantees (on TVs, iPods, phones and the like), but I figured it's pretty sure I'll ding the car in the 5 years I'll have it (and the 5 years the contract is for).

No problem with stereotyping. With our politically correct culture, people fear making any comments like this. But I believe it is true: white cars with light interiors are more of a woman thing. It's not that a man can't buy them, drive them, enjoy them, and look good in them; it's just that more women buy them than one would predict by chance. I agree. My last four coupes or sedans have been white exteriors. My last two SUVs have been green.

I actually started out wanting a kind of sand color exterior with black interior, but the GS didn't come in this color combo.

I found it very interesting that the GS doesn't use the champagne color over the whole interior. It's on the seats, the carpet, and much of the trim, but the top trim under the windshield is a very dark brown or dark ash color. I like it, since it breaks things up a bit and helps alleviate sun glare. It is a bit unusual though.

lexusguy · August 2005

They do that on purpose. The RX, SC, etc are the same way, even with the tan interior, the area directly under the windshield is as dark as possible. Its designed to absorb light, rather than reflect it as a light color or cheap, "sheeny" plastic would into your face.

larryoflebanon · August 2005

I did not expect to be in the market for a new LPS. I was driving to meet someone for dinner in my 2001 BMW 540i, a great car, when I had to lock up the brakes to avoid hitting a car that pulled out in front of me. The guy behind me in a 1990 Caravan did not have the same stopping power and totaled my car. I live in the land of Mark from Cincinnati, so if he is browsing he will know of some of the places and dealerships that I have been to.

I decided to narrow my search to AWD LPS. I live at the end of a long driveway that is tough to get in and out of in the winter even here in Cincinnati. I bought a Yukon Denali last year in order to deal with that issue and still be able to keep my beloved BMW.

In my search for a new car I have test driven:

BMW 530xi twice
Mercedes E320 4matic with a sport package
Lexus GS 300 AWD three times
Infiniti M350 AWD or whatever they call it
Audi A6 with the small engine once and with the 4.2 twice
Acura RL twice

For comparison I also drove the Audi A8, and S4.

I do not consider myself especially knowledgeable. I tend to be up to date on the latest major car magazine articles, and think they do provide a nice source of reference information that makes me a better consumer. Of course I read Edmunds.

So far these are my impressions. They are worth what you are paying for them.

BMW -- Nothing drives like the BMW. The steering gives you a feel of the road unmatched by any other car in the above grouping. That being said the price they want you to pay for that road feel is steep. I wanted and priced a manual transmission. It appears the only way to get it is to order the car. My 4 years experience with the dealership here was, in general good.

Mercedes -- It is a nice car. The E350 is probably much better. I haven't given it a lot of consideration due to quality issues. I do own a 2000 E320 4matic wagon, and can attest to the problems with the electronics in those cars. Added to that is what in my opinion is a poor dealership here in Cincinnati.

Lexus -- The GS 300AWD is a pretty darn good car. I drove it a few times to find a fatal flaw and couldn't. It is somewhat underpowered, but it still has some spunk. The steering is very much like the Mercedes, which is good if not as engaging as the BMW. The ergonomics of the drivers seat are terrific. The touch screen interface is a great help, as are the seats that blow air up your ... All in all it is a very good Mercedes replacement. I worried about the reported the computers having a heavy hand. When this car gets a bigger engine it might be something.

Infiniti -- I am not a great fan of the manager of the local dealership, who is more of a self promoter than a dealership promoter. That being said the car is an excellent car. It is a little too much boy racer for my taste, but again it is an excellent car.

Audi -- The Audis have a V-8 option, and that is a great thing. That engine makes the car a good choice. I thought the A-6 with the 3.2 was underpowered. The A-6 with the 4.2 and a 6 speed automatic is a wonderful choice. The engine winds out well. The sounds coming from the engine compartment reminds me of a formula 1 racer. The A-8 is a great car, but I am not sure if the price premium is worth it. The S-4 beat the heck out of me.

Acura -- This is a tough call. I could get one for $45K and change. The car drives well, but you know you are in a really nice Honda. The question between this and an Audi is whether you want to pay the price premium for what you get. From my standpoint the jury is still out.

I have submitted this as an aide for discussion. I would appreciate any comments on the relative strengths or weaknesses of any of the above cars. I am in no rush to buy. I still have the Denali to run around in.

carnaught · August 2005

Your choice of cars is a great list. None of us can tell you what to buy. We all have our biases. Keep us apprised of your thoughts and I'm sure others will share their specific opinions.

lexusguy · August 2005

Sorry to hear about the accident. How do you feel about the elctronics in the new 5? For the record, the new 5 hasnt proven itself particularly reliable just yet. I've driven a 545i, not impressed with iDrive, or the Active steering system. (And this is not just a BMW bash, I dont like the steering in the GS430 either). I'm not sure if the 530xi offers AS or not, but if it does, dont get it.

The E350 got some fresh ponies this year like the BMW, but otherwise not much has changed. Theres not enough data on MB to know if they really have the problems under control or not, though they did reasonably well on IQS this year. The E has no bluetooth system, and to do hands-free stuff you must use the MB phone, which is lame. I'll stick with my Treo 650, thanks.

I like the GS300 a lot more than I like the 430. The GS300 doesnt have the ultra agressive VDIM stability system as in the 430, or the variable ratio (AS) steering, which makes it a much less annoying car. The electronics are also the easiest to use in the class, though I didnt really have any trouble with the Infiniti system, which I think is designed better than the RL's. Like the RL, the GS is on the small side in terms of interior volume, and the trunk design is poor. CR said the driving position was "flawed" in their report, but I was able to get comfortable. It sounds like you didnt have a problem there either. The GS300 could use more horses, unfortunately it wont get them for at least a year.

The A6 is very nice, and its interior (IMO) is much nicer than the Benz and the BMW. I also like MMI better than iDrive and COMAND. If I were gonna go German, I'd go with an A6. The lower price compared to the E and 5 also makes a V8 an option, and unlike Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, and BMW, you can get the V8 and AWD together. Reliability is again unknown at this point, but Audi has been doing much better with that than either MB or BMW lately.

The Acura (again IMO) is just an OK car. Its a good value at $45K, but I wouldn't pay any more for it than that. Acura set the MSRP a bit too high. For 2006 Acura is adding a "Technology package" that adds Collision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS), basically the same as MB's PreSafe and Lexus' PCS systems. The radar also allows for auto cruise controll. The car will also come with Michelin PAX Run-Flat tires. The Acura can offer you almost everything that anyone else can in terms of technology, but as you said, you're driving basically a big Honda.

The Infiniti is my favorite car in the segment. The M35 can make short work of the GS and RL in terms of acceleration thanks to short gearing, but at the same time that means higher revs (and more engine noise) at highway speeds. The Infiniti is the closest to the BMW in terms of driving dynamics, at a much better price. The interior space feels much bigger than GS or RL.

jjacura · August 2005

HMMMMMM...WHAT A COINCIDENCE! All our dingposts rang loud and clear in my brain earlier this afternoon as my wife and I were walking back to the RL sitting there in a nice wide spot on a new furniture store parking lot. Eagle-eye Karen spotted a scrape in the right rear quarter panel of the otherwise immaculate 8 month old celestial silver beauty. Looks like a trailer hitch and it gouged pretty deep. OK ....thats something that was not expected and quite frankly I'm done blowing steam. Life's too short and I'm not going to sweat the small stuff. I'll get it fixed and move on!

cdnpinhead · August 2005

Thanks for the positive feedback. I know I'm swimming upstream here, but it's nice to find a kindred spirit.

I love to drive.

I'd rather do it in something that does it well, but I enjoy thousands of miles a year in rental appliances for business. OTOH, I've blasted through the Canadian Rockies in the middle of the night in my own very capable vehicle with the aurora on display and no traffic anywhere around, and touched the face. . . (oh wait, that's for those who fly).

In my world, the journey is the important thing. The car (or truck) is. . . the vehicle.

nvbanker · August 2005

Exactly! My car is always my servant, not my master. But I do keep it up and looking as like new as possible - I just drive it and park it for MY convenience.

hpowders · August 2005

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. At least it can be fixed.

dhamilton · August 2005

It's kind of cracking me up all the people in here bashing the RL for looking just like an accord. [It does I must admit] These are the same people who are proudly driving there Infiniti M forty Maximas, or there Lexus GS three Avalons, or there Audi A Passats. I realize that some of these have the advantage of being on a different platform but PALEASE, if your talking about styling these cars all look like there less expensive siblings. It's called cost savings and all car manufactuers do it. The bottom line is everyone in here is money conscience so this BS about
" I'm not gonna spend that money on an overpriced accord" is rubbish. And don't tell me money isn't a factor, cause if it wasn't a lot of y'all would be over on the Bently- Rolls Royce thread.
Just feal the need to stick up for a fabulous car

nvbanker · August 2005

Interesting how when Ford or Honda do it, it's shameful - but when Lexus does it (ES-300 & IS) it's BRILLIANT!

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