Luxury Performance Sedans

sdiver68 · October 2005

... I said ALG residual values, which is the leading independent lease residual company, and considered by many to be the best predictor of true resale value. I said nothing about manufacturer or captive lease company considerations, which as has been pointed out many times, are subject to various manipulations.

And yes, I do have an analytical bias in general. I reacted to the word "capability" used by the original poster, since the word "capability" seems to me measurable and objective. I have never said the M is the best car in class or the best car for all people, in fact I think I said in my original post that the RL at $41K seems hard to pass up!

My true feelings are competition is great, and at this price range it is hard to go wrong. The BMW 5, M-B E, Infiniti M, Acura RL, Lexus GS, Audi A6...even the Caddy STS could all be well researched and rationalized purchases, based on whichever subjective factors are most important to the buyer.

bdr127 · October 2005

ALG is the primary source used by manufacturers' financial arms to determine residual values..... Of course, many of those financial arms stray from those values in order to make their leasing attractive. Come on, do you think that those GM SUVs are really going to be worth 50+% of their MSRP after 48 months? I don't think so......

wale_bate1 · October 2005

Acchh, engineers and accountants; moles and trolls!

Just revisiting my youth, so never mind me.

Echoing here: objective is nice to have, but subjective molds the gold. Even the most objective information is processed through subjective filters, because that's the way we humans work.

Sometimes the flock of potentials can be thinned via objectivity, but I agree with the Ohio man: cars are emotional. And echoing my above echo, even cold stats are viewed emotionally.

By isolating resale as an example, we see that use of the objective material is really emotional in nature. You want the purchase to item for the lowest amount possible and be assured of reselling said same for the highest amount possible, thereby reducing your outgoing capital (or expense) to an absolute minimum, so that in general you will have more money, not less, for your future. This is an emotional process. Some call this "economy" or "thrift". In the real world we call it "greed".

cdnpinhead · October 2005

"I can tell you all day long. . ."

Yes.

Yes, you can, in a most entertaining & enlightening fashion.

I feel (moderately) guilty about the amount of time I spend on these boards, but it's clear I have a ways to go to get to the head of the class.

markcincinnati · October 2005

The RL was/is meant to be an A6 killer, the Infiniti M's target was/is the 5 series (if you can believe all that is written in the US Car Magazines, du jour, that is.)

The German cars are -- speaking personally -- worth paying "something" more for. However, unless there is at least $5,000 in cash in the glove compartment of the BMW 530xi when put next to an M35X or perhaps even an RL, I would wonder where the value proposition was in the BMW that could make it "worth" $10,000 more (and I am speaking both objectively and subjectively -- for all these cars have much more in common than not.)

My reason for going with the M35X over the A6 initially was "they were close enough in performance and content to make me consider them as rivals, darn near equals." And, by the same token this closeness was such that even though I would pay a little more for the Audi (apples to apples as much as possible) I would not pay a lot more.

When the M35X was almost $200 per month less than the A6 (3 year term), the Audi was soundly beaten on "price or value." When the A6 came within $10's of dollars per month of the M35X, the A6 won. Indeed, the price of the A6 was actually about $10 less than the M, but even had it been $10 more I would have gone with the Audi (for all the subjective reasons we all go for our beloved cars.)

But don't for an instant think I'm bashing the M, quite the contrary -- it would, today, still be on my short list.

Truth be told, after thoroughly enjoying my wife's X3, I would probably consider a MAXXED out BMW 330xi as a contender too. The frequency with which I have rear seat passengers who are non canine is shrinking rapidly.

lexusguy · October 2005

Whether it is or is not doesnt really matter. After all, which car is which other car's "killer" always comes down to someone's opinion, whether its a magazine or an individual. What's important is which car is better for you? Is the 5's extra bit of at the limit handling worth all that cash, and potential reliability headaches?

Despite what Dewey says, the 5, at least for '04, had worse than average reliability. Whether the people on this board have yet to have problems with their 5s is not statistically significant.

docnukem · October 2005

You put CANINES in the back seat of your A6?????

wale_bate1 · October 2005

If you put 'em in the front they mess with the radio, Doc.

Sheesh!

lovemyclk · October 2005

"Or how about a supercharged M35X versus a 530ix, if you want to look at $ for $ in the AWD category"

I'd like to think that your professed knowledge of the dynamics of these cars is driven from intimate knowledge in the driver's seat. Only a lack of such knowledge would allow you to make an erroneous statement regarding a "supercharged" M35X. The M35X (naturally aspirated) at 280HP already produces 25 more HP than the 530. Ain't no such thing as a supercharged M35! I'm sure the upcoming 535 (6-cyl) variant will offer an interesting performance option against the M35/45, albeit at a higher price than the Japanese competition. Of course, the new 550 e60 will most likely show its tail lights to most LPS cars in this discussion.

Since you mention racing a Porsche, care to guess why a Porsche can command higher sponsor fees for a smaller surface area than other makes? Their branded image, earned over the years, commands a higher level of sponsor investment than other cars in lower classes and some competitors within the same GT class, IMO.

This branded image allows Porsche to command higher prices than Chevy can for a Corvette. Believe me, if Chevy COULD sell Corvettes at Porsche prices, they would. Porsche's earned and well-branded image and commensurate pricing has allowed it to become one of the most profitable automotive companies. Branding earned through years of excellence will allow PRICE to increase, thereby improving profits. When high-priced cars such as MB take a hit on the quality front and damage the branded image that was so properly earned, problems do surface.

Many here seem to think that PRICE is the major determinant of overall value. Just ain't so.

pat · October 2005

hahahahahahahaha!!!

dewey · October 2005

Lexusguy I honestly dont know how you define the words "statistical significance".

If you are a reliabillity worry-wart you would avoid not only the BMW5 but also the Lexus GX470 '03!

BUT fortunately there is no reason to worry about the the BMW5 !. For 7 out of 8 years BMW5 reliability has been "average" to "above average" except for one year. Would a statistician find that one below average year significant? I dont think so!

Regarding the Lexus GX470 ,50% of its two year data is below average. Not enough yearly data to conclude anything, but enough to conclude that by owning a Lexus GX470 you may not have the abover average to average reliabilityof a BMW5!

jjacura · October 2005

very cute...

and as a dog lover ....(she's long gone,,,,sniff,sniff)...but I still remember like yesterday those only times our Lhasa would be allowed in our front seat. it was on the way to the groomer....and she always knew it... and we paid big time!

jjacura · October 2005

Do realize what you may have started? ..Hmmmmm... :sick:

wale_bate1 · October 2005

Our own pretty girl mutt (Husky/Malamut) sits up front on the way to the groomer as well, otherwise she gets car sick! :surprise:

I wasn't kidding about the radio, really, most times she shifts herself, the tail wacks the presets, and I get posterior programming...

Gents all, I think I edged one step closer to the S4 Avant today. I was passed by one in green this morning, and I also saw the pricing on an IS350, and have seen what appears to be the pricing on the A3 3.2Q DSG. All solid arguments for floating the extra green for the most majestic muscle car in America, IMO.

May. Must hold on to head until May...

lexusguy · October 2005

'97-'03 BMW 5 reliability data is totally irrelevant. We're talking about the new 5 here, not the old one. The new 5 has yet to show even average reliability.

The '03 GX470 is a totally different situation. Yes it had some initial year problems, mostly having to do with the plant in Canada where its made. Lexus fixed them. The '04 is perfect, and there's no reason to expect that it wont continue to be.

kyfdx · October 2005

Hey Wale...

I saw new unconfirmed lease numbers on the A3 for October...... Residuals are up in BMW territory now.... That might make the A3Q 3.2 DSG not so expensive...

Does this help?

I think not..

rjg96 · October 2005

I currently have a BMW 325i that I like very much. I'm also a BMWCCA member, so I"m a bit of a "bimmerhead". That being said, if I had to choose, on "appeal" alone among the cars discussed here, I'd probably go w/ the RL. Although I used to find the 5's exterior hideous, I've since warmed up to it and now I sort of like it. The interior is what kills me-- it just doesn't come together and sort of feels cheap, and i'm not thrilled w/ the ergonomics. Nothing like the old 5. The RL's is gorgeous, the GS nice, and the M's is sort of "White shoes, belts and plaid pants" I really don't trust the new BMWs very much as far as quality/reliability. Although my 3 has been very good, BMWs tend to have "niggling" problems that they seem to take forever to come up with solutions for--door seals, window regulators, software issues, waterpumpts, etc. Nothing earth shattering, but just very annoying and stupid. However, if I'd probably go with the BMW. WHat? Why? Because its the cheapest (i'll explain in a bit), because its a RWD-based car, and because it can have a manual trans. If you take advantage of BMW's european delivery option on the 5, you can about 12% off the US list price. IF you're in the BMWCCA, you can get another $1k back. Even w/ the trip to Germany (a fun trip in itself), and the 1- 1.5 months you'll be without hte car but making payments, you'll still come out ahead. Plug in some numbers and you'll see that the lease numbers work out very nicely. IF I was buying, I'd go w/ the 525xi for the likely high residuals in the northeast (doesn't make a diff for leasing). BTW, the 2 year lease is actually the best in this case. And, if I were buying I wouldn't keep the thing for more than 2 years (did I mention that I really don't trust newer German cars). But, if Infiniti made a less offensive interior (and offered a manaul), or if Acura offered a manual, I'd be hard pressed to choose the BMW. For those comparing reuglar US delivery, automatic BMWs with the other choices, I probably woudn't take the bmw. Yeah, it might have a little more feel-- but that's about it. It just doens't seem worth it.

As far as reliability goes, I actually think reliability and are part of the emotional/subjective experience with the car. Even the worst German car is unlikely to strand you (I hope), but it is more likely to make you feel bad about your purchase by having assorted quality problems that the dealers will try their hardest to avoid fixing. When you buy a car in this class, part of the luxury experience should be quality and crafstmanship. The Germans used to atleast look/feel higher quality in the showroom. Sadly, now that's no longer even the case.

Still, RWD, stick, good prices and short lease terms help me get over all of this. Strangely, my "emotional" side is now more enamored w/ Japanese cars.

Sorry if this post is convoluted and too long.

lexusguy · October 2005

"Sorry if this post is convoluted and too long."

Heh. Dont worry about it. I think Mark is in talks with Random House to have some of his posts made into novels

I definitely get what you're saying. There's now 7 cars in the mid-lux catergory (8 if you count the S-type, but who does) but if you want RWD and a MT, that list suddenly becomes very short.

I'm not interested in a German sedan, but I would consider a German lux-convertible if there were any that I actually liked. The CLK is bland, and the 650Ci looks like a catfish, with an interior even more drab than the 5. I'm very interested in the new XK, and I absolutely love that new Austin Healey concept. I used to drive a 3000 MkII in years long past, and the nostolgia factor alone would sell me on it in a second. I really hope it actually sees the light of day.

mexibec · October 2005

> So all German cars are unreliable?

Don't mean to offend you, but yep, 90% of them are. And by "unreliable" I mean "reliability below average for models 2004+". At the very best, they are average (e.g. BMW 3). The 5 is well below average. I've been driving BMWs for 10 years, but they set the bar too high for themselves with the E39 regarding the 5.

> BUY THE CAR YOU LOVE TEST DRIVING!

Sure, but remember that the initial post was about buying for the long-term taking into account a growing family. That means no German cars. We're not talking about leasing either. We're talking about buying a reliable car.

Btw, when I sold my 99 528, I went to test-drive a new 545. It took 3 minutes for the tranny to have hickups, which was later confirmed by the dealer to be a firmware problem. The sales rep didn't even want me to look at iDrive. Not a good start. I was too looking for a reliable car with family in mind, but super capable when I drive alone.

So I took the plunge, and I went to drive the M45, among others. The rev-matching downshift, plus the no-nonsense gizmos that I could operate in minutes made the deal for me. The Acura RL & Lexus GS430 were both equally excellent during the test drives, but I chose the M45 per personal preferences.

dave328 · October 2005

My two cents:

Someone above mentioned that his experience with an Audi A6 was arguably the worst experience of his car career. I will go a step further. It WAS unequivocally the worst experience for me. Over twenty times in the shop in the first two years alone. The service dept was nearly as bad. They had four different managers in those two years. Unless Audi comes out with a spectacular car that is clearly superior to it's competition, I will never seriously consider another Audi again. And from my limited exposure, I know many folks who have had similar experiences.

Because of that bad experience, I ruled out MB and their reliability issues.

For me, it came down to 545 and M45. I consider myself somewhat of an enthusiast, having done some track racing and having owned enthusiast cars including Porches. And honestly, the difference in feel and abilities between the cars were pretty much imperceptible. I know it is fashionable to say that the 5 series has a slightly better "feel" than this car or that car. But in reality, for most people, differences in the tire pressure or the size of the wheels would be more perceptible than the inherent feel of the cars. Just my opinion, of course. Stying did not sway me one way or the other. I happen to think that the 5's design is a pretty good one, with a bit more presence than the M45. What made the decision for me was the interior. Opinions of some on this board notwithstanding, I thought the M's interior was one of the best I've seen in a long time. Head and shoulder above the 5's. Had the price been higher for the M, I still would have chosen it for that reason.

designman · October 2005

and the M's is sort of "White shoes, belts and plaid pants"

and the 650Ci looks like a catfish

Good impressions. Ive been struggling for a description of the busy M interior, and the catfish is new and spot on. I would imagine Lexusguy is talking about the front of the 6. The rear reminds me of a pugilist who has taken that one defining shot in the nostrils.

One of the problems with todays designs is the use of the lamps to explore shape. This is as ridiculous as trying to get creative with shirt buttons. There are many offenders of which several come immediately to mind the Corolla head lamps look like Idaho potatoes. The E tail lamps look like that last hunk of Boars Head Genoa Salami thats sits on the deli shelf and the Z4 tail lamps look like the Toucans head that can often be found on a box of Fruit Loops.

Of course, the 5 has its legendary Dame Edna Coke bottles, but if you look closely at those lamps you will also see the shape of a pigeon pecking at a scrap of bread.

Next up on the drawing board square wheels?

The form that can be found in nature never changes. I submit human anatomy. Do we ever get bored with it? There are some aspects of autos that just make them what they are and that shouldnt be upset. The utility of a car limits its role as a canvas. I suspect that in the future, the better designers will realize this. But history is long and we are very early in automotive history.

dewey · October 2005

The '03 GX470 is a totally different situation. Yes it had some initial year problems,

And that the above excuse does not apply to the inititial year for the new BMW5.

Excusing one and calling the other unreliable sounds a bit biased, dont you think?

dewey · October 2005

Don't mean to offend you, but yep, 90% of them are.

90% of German cars are unreliable! I can see you have done a very thorough and precise statistical analysis on reliability

You certainly are making the right decision based on your research. The question is whether your research is right or wrong?

I've been driving BMWs for 10 years, but they set the bar too high for themselves with the E39 regarding the 5.

I've been driving BMWs for more than 10 years and my anecdotal evidence is contary to yours! And that is the key source to our disagreement! Personal car ownership experiences usually translates into our choice of future cars.

sdiver68 · October 2005

CLK,

The 3.5L VQ engine has supercharger kits available from Stillen among others. Figure installed cost around $5000, or about the difference in price betwen the M35X and 530ix comparably equipped. A little more for supercharged and intercooled. I put the winkie after that comment because I figure everyone would know I was talking about an aftermarket (but common among performance enthusiasts) modification.

I guess I was wrong, not every DID know.

lovemyclk · October 2005

Well, if we're talking aftermarket, let's talk Dinan, etc. for BMW. Aftermarket is not what we're talking about here, is it? So you want to add a $5K+ supercharger to a 280HP M and compare with a factory-issued 530? The context of this discussion has nothing to do with comparison of aftermarket mods.

hpowders · October 2005

I was quite surprised that the you found the differences in feel between the M45 and 545i "were pretty much imperceptible." To me the M45 felt like a very heavy car whereas the 545i felt much lighter.
The only drivability thing that I felt the M had over the 5 was the brakes.
The M45 has the best brakes I have ever experienced but unfortunately the gas mileage is poor compared to the 545i.
If the 545i didn't exist, I would be quite happy with the M45.
I got the 545i last August and am totally satisfied. No reliability issues.

hpowders · October 2005

Yeah. I guess Dewey and I are in that lucky 10% that approximately 77.3% of BMW owners belong to who have no reliability issues. 12 consecutive trouble-free years for me.

sdiver68 · October 2005

I put the winkie there so we would not go down that path, I was emphasizing a $ for $ point. Pretty soon, you'll have someone who thinks they can mod a '66 Olds Toronado to be a Bentley GT killer

So let's agree to let that one rest, ok?

markcincinnati · October 2005

. . .Between my wife, a handful of company cars (all Audis) and me, we have had two dozen plus Audis, one VW Jetta, one VW Quantum, one BMW 325ix, and one American Eagle (I thought it was a quattro, I was misinformed) prior to our current 2005 A6 and X3.

Of our German cars, ONE, one time left us stranded (it was an Audi 90CS quattro and it lost its engine within the first 30 days of ownership -- it was completely fixed and until the car was rear ended a couple years later was essentially perfect after the new engine was put in it.) One other time, also in an Audi 90CS quattro sport, the power seat plug came "unplugged" while the car was at a car wash and the seat was in its most rearward position and my wife couldn't reach the pedals (and, although this is a repeat story, on a Sunday afternoon, the Audi store service manager personally came to our house -- after I drove the car home, having longer legs than my 'missus'-- and spliced the wire and put a new connector on the power seat.)

Numerous other "annoying" things have happened to our cars over the years -- every single car no matter who makes it offers manumatic transmissions that are less than pleasing (whether you call it Tip lag or Step lag or Geartronic-lag etc etc etc), I suspect the Japanese must also have some issues in this regard also.

One of the most annoying things to ever happen to an Audi I owned was in my third Audi that had the 4.2 V8, the trouble (with both my A8 and my) A6 4.2 sport brakes was they would warp between oil changes (almost literally) -- including the factory original set of rotors, my A6 4.2's (a 2000 and a 2001) went through 9 sets of rotors. Otherwise the car(s) was (were) great. The warped rotors were annoying but I never had any concern that the car's braking was substandard in terms of its ability to stop the car.

So, with my anecdotes to comfort me, I can tell you that over two dozen Audis have been (based on what my friends went through with their cars) somewhat more reliable than all the cars my "six degrees of separation" can be compared with.

This will certainly sway even the most die-hard LPS Japanese buyer to immediately abandon his/her Japanese rattle trap, eh? Not!

Said it before: I want more reliable cars, we have driven German cars since the mid 1970's -- they have hardly been flawless, but they have virtually never let us down (see exception where new engine was needed, above.) I have driven Acura's and Infinitis and I have rented the GS Lexus and probably a couple of Nissans and Toyota's here and there -- but at this point, only a German car drives like a German car (although the Infiniti M35X deserves a very honorable mention.)

This is certainly in flux, the Germans cannot rest on their laurels (but they'd probably like to do so -- wouldn't we all?) The Japanese and even the Cadillac certainly don't feel like second class citizens in this crowd -- but all the anecdotes that we all can share are unlikely to convince us to change our habits until it gets personal.

My current 2005 A6 3.2 is a blast to drive, as is my wife's 2005 X3 3.0 -- I recently drove a CTS and a G35X (and some other things that I rented) and the CTS actually felt "the most European/German" of all of them. But by the same token, I wouldn't kick the G35X outta bed for eatin' crackers either.

The Japanese are improving in the area that I (speaking for a party of one) believe they have been "not quite" the best at -- "the feel behind the wheel."

Indeed, they (and the CTS) are getting so close to the Germans that there will have to be some serious differentiation done by the engineers at Audi, BMW and Mercedes (and VW, what the heck) to maintain that "certain something."

To repeat, based on my experience (and, I suspect, my tolerances) the Germans are "as expected of a car" with respect to their reliability. And, they exceed expectations with respect to drivability.

Drive it like YOU live. :shades:

sdiver68 · October 2005

Here's someone else with extensive track experience who felt the 545i and M45 were very similar overall. Not at moderate speeds, I felt the 545 was more communicative, but when you pumped up the speeds a notch on a twisty backroad, the M45 (Sport in my case) really comes into its own. I don't know if its the rear wheel steer or not, but you realize Infiniti did a brilliant job in tuning the car for serious road work, even if they still have some way to go at regular speeds. If you re-read C&D's comparo review, they stated the 5 series had some troubles on the tight, twisty Streets of Willow course where they had nothing but praise for the M45.

So, I think the difference in perception has alot to do with how hard you have drive the car, and in what circumstances.

markcincinnati · October 2005

Re the BMW in the C&D comparo -- it was under tired and it was not the "new 5" -- perhaps a retest with the 530 as it stands today (i.e., current to current) would shine a bit more positive light on the 5.

I have driven both and I like both. I am assuminb BTW that we are talking about the C&D comparo with the LPS cars tested at once (6 or 7 of them as I recall.)

True, they tested the then available cars -- but almost the moment the ink dried on the article, the latest 255HP tuned and tweaked 5 hit the showrooms.

I remember how BMW fans complained when the Audi S4 triumphed over the M3 -- the claim was foul ball, since one was new and the other was longer in the tooth.

bdr127 · October 2005

The M35X (naturally aspirated) at 280HP already produces 25 more HP than the 530.

One thing to note is that, although the M35 produces 25 more hp than the 530i, it also weighs about 400 lbs more. With a difference of 0.1 sec in the 0-60 (M35 at 6.3 to 530i's 6.4), there really doesn't seem to be much difference there... especially when you factor in the 3-4 mpg difference in fuel economy (M35 at 18/25 vs 530i's 21/29).

sdiver68 · October 2005

I'm just saying there are multiple points of reference with similar comments, all 3 with track experience. Yes, I agree, a new 530i Sport may change things in the C&D comparo (but not my experience with a 545i Sport). Also, shame on BMW PR/marketing for sending a knife to a gun fight.

Competition is great, huh? Without the new A6 and M (and to a certain extent the G35), would BMW still be hoisting underpowered 225 HP 3.0's on the public? And they probably would have waited at least another year to release the 550i, in fact I think I read an insider report to that effect.

An '06 550i Sport SMG? Yummy, but at a $15K premium, though with lease subsidies and free maintenance would still be a tempting decision.

bartalk3 · October 2005

Mark:
Do you mean Maresy Dotes and Dosey Dotes and Littlelamesy Divey? Wow, it's been awhile (like 100 years) since I've heard that one.

markcincinnati · October 2005

Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you

{Refrain}

If the words sound queer and funny to your ear A little bit jumbled and jivey Sing, "Mares eat oats and does eat oats, and little lambs eat ivy"

Oh! {Refrain}

And I am only a 1/2 century old!

A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you

wale_bate1 · October 2005

"Ozzie!"

"Yes, Harriet dear?"

dewey · October 2005

Keep that up and you will end up calling the S4 Avant a "Station Wagon" and request exterior wood panelling!

Price Info for the Audi A3 3.2 Quattro, where did you find it?

designman · October 2005

Not to be confused with Ward and June.

wale_bate1 · October 2005

Didn't Ozzie's band record a cover (the cover, in terms of sales I thought)of Drake, Hoffman and Livingston's "Mairzy Doats", or am I nuts? Or are those two separate questions?

Dewey: Once upon a time, Chrysler promised a PT variant known as the "panel" (two-door panel truck idea) that, had they delivered and in GT trim, I would have owned and it would indeed have had the gawdawful "wood" decal at my request.

I may have just answered one of my own questions, but better me than all of youse!

lovemyclk · October 2005

OK... now back to our regularly scheduled program

wale_bate1 · October 2005

Sorry!

lovemyclk · October 2005

Not intended for you! In fact, I find your posts thoroughly entertaining and refreshing

mnjoe · October 2005

Discussion of anecdotal evidence is apropos. I've leased 3 Cadillac STSs in a row(1999, 2002, and now 2005). Cadillac doesn't have a stellar reliability reputation, but I've never had one in for anything other than routine maintenance and once when some idiot rear-ended me at a stoplight.

I too leaned toward a 2005 M35x or A6 for my current car. My experience with Minneapolis Infiniti dealers was so terrible that I could not buy that car (try as I might ... including providing a down payment). On the verge of getting the A6, my local Caddy dealer got me a V8 AWD sport (1SG) to drive during the whole employee pricing/subsidized lease/please don't leave us phase. The $63k Caddy ended up leasing comparably to a much cheaper V6 Audi. I ended up in the Caddy and am delighted. I was not the least bit interested in a less well equipped STS and in fact had eliminated the car from consideration early on in my search.

While CR and others say the Caddy may not be reliable, that wasn't my experience, so anecdotal evidence becomes my objective reality.

GM's pricing is silly, as is the way they limit option packages (buy 6 things you don't want to get the one you do). But as a recent poster observed, if you are leasing a car in this class, the MSRP is not very relevant. The down stroke and payment are. Discounts very considerably and manufacturers manipulate residuals, interest rates, and purchase prices to move iron that needs be moved. Supply and demand remain the main determiners of lease cost. Once the lease cost is determined, one can make the subjective determination of value.

I wanted a fast, cool, tricked out, comfortable, AWD car. For me, I made the right choice.

docnukem · October 2005

they can mod a '66 Olds Toronado to be a Bentley GT killer

Can they really? Cool....I got one of 'em out back in the barn under the tarp. I knew it would be worth something someday.

If they can do that with a 66 Toronado, just think what could be done with a 70's era Omega! I had one of them, too, but someone stole it and replaced the tarp over a pile of red dust. The lengths some people will go to.

But really, 5k to modify the 3.5 VQ? Why not just go with the 45? That's right around 5k. Maybe Infiniti will get the message from us Northerners that a 45x would be just the thing!

lexusguy · October 2005

I'm just calling the shots based on the info thats available. You made it sound as though if you walked into a Lexus dealer now, and bought a new GX470, you'd be taking a chance on reliability. Incorrect. Lexus fixed everything for the '04 model year. There is no second year info yet on the 5, so therefore there is no proof yet as to how much of an improvement BMW has made with it. It's true that the '98 5 was a lot better than the infamous '97, but it still was far from perfect.

brightness04 · October 2005

Well, if you have had two dozen plus Audi's, and the third one was not introduced until 1992 model year (4.2 liter V8) . . . that makes for 20+ Audis in 13 years. Considering how frequently you update your cars, it's not surprising that they all held up fine (except for a few minor but still annoying glitches). Any car maker would be fine in the first couple years's ownership, statisticly speaking.

msu79gt82 · October 2005

Objective vs. Subjective

Objectively BOTH are fine cars with their pluses and minuses (neither car is perfect, there is no such thing).

Subjectively the 5 Series is so butt ugly in the interior and so much more expensive that the M doesn't have to "kill" the 5. The 5 committed suicide.

:sick:
Ain't subjectivity great :shades:

markcincinnati · October 2005

Here is how this has worked, even though I wonder why bother to explain given that I am almost certain these responses are unlikely to sway any one to do anything (even if that were my intention, which it is NOT).

I got my first Audi in 1977 -- the company that I worked for actually allowed me to go pick a car, they leased it, they made the payments, I had to keep records, etc. I had been using the company's 1976 Audi silver Fox and when the Audi 5000 came to the US, I thought it was every bit as good as the BMW's and Mercedes that I had tested but thought were overpriced. I liked my 1978 5000 so much that when my then girlfriend, now wife needed a car, I suggested she try a 1979 Audi Fox GTI.

As time passed, I worked for companies that either gave me an auto allowance or actually allowed me to pick the car I wanted within $ limits -- other than the American Eagle (a short lived 1980 model), I always went with Audis since BMW's at the time were always way way way more money per month and way way more expensive to maintain. Besides, in Cincinnati, my Audis almost always went in the snow, while the BMW's were only good about 9 months of the year.

So, when fate or foolishness or fortune put me in a position to found my own company, I continued the policy of offering auto allowances to my employees. The operative word was "allowance," as only once did I actually pick the car for the employee (my VP of sales) and I bought him an Audi 5000S (leased actually.)

So my wife and I ALWAYS had either a current year or one year old Audi (since 1977) and my company always had at least one Audi "in the fleet" during a 21 year period.

Usually I personally have a car that is my primary driver about every 24 to 30 months or so. Sometimes that means I have had a 2000 followed by a 2001. Sometimes it means that I get a 1978 model in 1977 and a 1981 model in 1981. Usually it has meant that I have had a new Audi about every other model year, or if I haven't, my wife has one that is one year newer or one year older.

I have, no secrets, rarely kept one of these cars much past 45,000 miles. I did keep one to 49,500 and the ONLY Audi I bought used a 1987 5000CS turbo quattro I kept til about 75k miles which was about 50,000 total miles as I recall that I personally drove the car.

I do not believe mere mortals can afford to keep any of these LPS cars out of warranty unless one is either incredibly lucky or so wealthy that "self insurance" is a practical option.

So here I sit with the anecdotal experience of driving over two dozen Audis since 1977 (but this includes all the Audis in my 3 car garage and in the parking lot of the small company I own.)

You may conclude that my Audi experience is invalid since virtually all of the cars I had from Audi were gone in equal to or less than 50,000 miles from the day I took delivery of them.

I cannot tell you about my experiences at 150,000 miles on ANY car in my entire 53+ years on the planet. If that makes my experiences less than germane and valuable in the LPS world, so be it. I can't change what has happened.

Many folks here, however, that seem to have issues with their cars, have these issues long before they leave the relative safety of the original warranty. This only makes sense, to me, though. If your 30,000 mile old LPS car has been in the shop over and over and over, it seems only natural that you will dump it asap financially.

Audis in my personal experience are at least as reliable as "everybody" else's cars.

I am often wrong, but never uncertain, of this.

I know that the reliability records of Audis, BMWs and Mercedes certainly seem to be below average. But, without fear of contradiction, I assure you reading this that my experience with Audis since 1977 and dozens of cars has been at worst average and "anecdotally" above average.

Further, even though I have test driven cars until I am weary, nothing (so far) beats and almost nothing equals the feel behind the wheel of a German car.

If the Japanese cars are indeed flawless, perfect and absolutely reliable, I still at this moment haven't driven one that has the same feel as a German car.

The Infiniti M does come close, however.

Of course, I could be wrong. :shades:

dewey · October 2005

I had no intention to target the GX470's reliability. My only intention was to show that you cannot judge a new model based on its first year of introduction, whether its a Lexus or a BMW!

As MNJOE mentioned in a prior post anecdotal evidence is most persuasive when it is your own evidence. My personal experiences with owning a BMW(driving and out-of warranty expenses) has been quite satisfactory. And that in itself creates a certain level of comfort in buying a BMW3/5 in some future date. Unfortunatedy my anecdotal evidence is not going to persuade you or anyone else!

CR stats are great if you are
1)a first time car buyer with no prior experience
2) a disgruntled car owner who is fed up with owning lemons and is seeking a auto that is less problematical.

The above two criteria does not apply to me!

brightness04 · October 2005

Thank you for the long details. I never implied that your experience was invalid; I just wanted to put in perspective that your two dozen audis since 1977 actually meant relatively short ownership of each one, when they were brand new or nearly so. 4% engine failure rate is still very high, but that could be just a fluke.

FWIW, I keep my cars typically 6 years (buying a new car every 2-3 years, and keep 2-3 cars at the same time). The Japanese cars tend to be completely trouble-free, whereas the European ones tend to need frequent attention for the little things . . . I have no idea why head lights burn out much faster on European cars, tires wear out much faster, and so do brakes; door screws get loose faster too sometimes, and defintely fuses popping much more frequently . . . even though I'm prety damn sure that they use the same third-party light bulbs, fuses, etc.. Not sure why.

Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles