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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    One interesting thing to note about 5 Series sales is that it managed a close second to the despite the fact that the wagon and AWD sedan have only been available for a couple of months, and the M5 is still not released yet. So it most likely would have beaten or come very close to the E if they had been available the whole time. I realize that not many M5's get sold, but I imagine that both the AWD sedan and wagon will sell well. Still can't believe that the A6 doesn't sell more. To me, it's right up there with the 5 and E (and beats both in styling) plus it costs less (about $5-$10K). I do see a fair amount of them around here in the suburbs of Chicago, but I see many more E's and 5's. I have seen a good number of M's as well. Oh, and for whatever reason, people here seem to love Caddies so I see a lot of STS' and CTS'. Where I live is actually a good case study really because on one road (Ogden Ave.) we have Lexus, Audi, BMW and Mercedes all right next to each other. In fact, the Audi, BMW and Mecedes dealerships are all owned by the same company (Autonation). In my experience, the Audi branch has the best customer service followed by BMW. The Mercedes dealership is awful. Really salesy salesman and bad customer service.
  • bw45sportbw45sport Member Posts: 151
    March thru October 2005 Sales:

    E = 34,886
    5 = 34,029

    Forget the comparos or what your impressions of the cars in this class lead you to believe, it's obvious the E Class is the best car in the class. As I've been told, sales figures don't lie.
  • msu79gt82msu79gt82 Member Posts: 541
    You are definitely speaking subjectively here, and it would be nice if people who supported the M were not so eager to bash people who bought something else. It feels like a giant insecurity complex. Sort of like, OK I finally can buy a decent car for $10K less than a BMW, so let me stick it in the face of every BMW buyer.

    :confuse: Dude did you even read the post that I was replying to? It would be nice if people who comment on my post would at least read in it context :blush: My comments were directed toward someone denigrating the M.

    In my subjective opinion the interior of the 5 is ugly (sorry thats how I feel) and I absolutely do NOT feel like the BMW 5 is worth anywhere near $10,000 more than my M. I was replying to someone who condescendingly said that with the M (being $10,000 less than the M), you get what you paid for. I said it then and I'll repeat it here - for that I am glad :shades:
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Somewhere here in cyberspace, there is a link to the Pike's Peak International Hill Climb video. Here is a summary:

    "Three victories have made the Pikes Peak International Hill Climb Race part of Audi’s successful motor sport history. In 1985 the race was won by Michèle Mouton, the first woman driver ever to win a world championship rally. A year later, the legendary American race driver Bobby Unser proved to be unbeatable, and in 1987 Walter Rohrl, driving the Audi Sport quattro S1, scored a much-admired overall victory by conquering the Peak in the new record time of 10:47.85 minutes."

    I have seen the video and when Walter Rohrl is driving his car up the hill the tail IS hanging WAY the heck out there.

    Four Audi driving schools (the first one actually had both Audi A4's quattros and two BMW 3's) too have proven that Audis do drift -- the difference is they can "drift" faster. The exercise we underwent was to drive a "figure 8" on ice with a quattro with four studded snow tires and ditto with a BMW RWD 3 series also with four studded snow tires.

    The exercise which was called "steering with the throttle" demonstrated the abilities of both cars -- the BMW RWD was more "tail happy" that much is true -- but in a timed situation, the figure 8 course could be taken in a shorter period of time in the AWD car than in the RWD car (hence I concluded the Audi was taking the figure 8 at a higher speed.)

    In the LPS world, the P stands for Performance. While I agree with the premise that most folks probably wouldn't know (under normal none too aggressive driving) if the car they were driving was FWD, RWD or AWD, it is "more than just nice" to know that the AWD car, while not being able to break the laws of physics can be driven in such a way to yield both higher performance and a higher margin of safety for those of us prone to having "stupid attacks."

    Dr. Peich was darn near ridiculed back in 1979 or so when he proclaimed something to the effect that "all LPS cars will offer AWD someday -- we at Audi AG can do it today." Of course, the term LPS didn't exist at that time, or if it did it was not used frequently. Son of a gun, though, on the 25th anniversary of quattro if every one of the LPS cars under discussion in this forum (and some not) offers at least one flavor with AWD. Piech, love him or not, was prescient.

    And, despite Audis current 50 50 bias F/R, several new Audis have caved in to the pressure and are offering quattro with 40 60 bias F/R. Not so the Acuras and Volvos which are sometimes (in the case of Volvos 60 "hot rod") 95 5 bias F/R.

    As far as I'm concerned, Audi could have spent all their money making the A6 (et al) better weight balanced rather than simply 40 60 power distribution biased.

    But that's just me.

    All of the LPS cars offer AWD perhaps for marketing, perhaps for performance or perhaps as a legitimate response to the market. For years (in the US) a super majority of Audis were sold as AWD. At my local BMW dealer (the largest in Ohio, as if that matters) they sell about 1,300 cars per year -- four of the models currently come in AWD: 3, 5, X3 & X5 -- the owner of the dealership claims the AWD models (or as he says, the X-drive cars) are much harder to keep in stock, or put another way are not ever an inventory burden. Indeed, all the 5xi's on the lot were already spoken for, save one.

    There is something to this -- or at least there must be. Most of us drive these LPS cars, I assume, for Luxury AND Performance. The cars discussed in this forum all offer AWD one can conclude because the L and P quotient is at its/their pinnacle when one configures his/her LPS car with AWD.

    The market for AWD across the board is on a growth path -- and it seems 2WD will be less and less dominant as each year passes.

    Most of this, of course, is opinion -- some of it, significantly, is fact.

    Drive it like you live. :shades:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I wasnt talking about Formula D. Drifting is controlled oversteer, you need rear drive for that. A four wheel drift is a lateral slide, neither understeer (FWD) or oversteer (RWD). Its a popular trick used by the rally twins at the track. Drifting, on the other hand, is basically a stunt. Driving like that on a race track would make you come in last place.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    YTD sales figures for the 5-series

    525 15,422 (37.5%)
    530 18,661 (45.4%)
    545/550 6,691 (16.3%)
    M5 367 (0.9%)

    Don't have a breakdown for cars sold with the sport package but it looks like the general public opts for the 6 cylinder. However I believe the BMW owners on this forum have almost all chosen the 8 so it looks like this forum may not represent the views of your "typical" 5-series owner. IMHO
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    In my opinion your interior may not appeal to me either but I wouldn't call it ugly. More importantly than that to me being called DUDE is worse, Freddybb. Interestingly enough those that do use the term Dude probably don't mean anything by it. Guess I'm a little older tho' and the reference irks me.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    My wife has been taking vitamin supplements.
    Does that make her a zippity duda?
    I can't understand that other dude hating the 5's interior.
    I got the report back from my local CSI and the scrapings came back positive for burnished walnut.....
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well then, trade in the M and go with the E, for example.....
  • bw45sportbw45sport Member Posts: 151
    Well then, trade in the M and go with the E, for example.....

    For example, I already have an E and SL so I don't need to trade.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Good. The only big seller you seem to be lacking is the 5.
    I hear the 2006 models have been programmed for automatic time adjustments for DST and ST.
    I should have waited.
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Member Posts: 125
    Not true.

    Rear Wheel bias, performance AWD cars can throttle steer just fine. In fact, with ATESSA, an AWD car IS a RWD car above ~25 mph. This discussion kind of reminds me of the late 80's, when ABS was just coming onto the scene. Many performance enthusiasts were convinced it was needlessly complex and an expert driver could modulate brakes just as well as ABS. That is, until Car and Driver and others ran a series of race results showing the results of ABS equipped cars versus non-ABS cars. Now, every car has ABS.

    Again, people knocking AWD have never had a performance AWD equipped car.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    I don't recall knocking it per se myself. I do recall stating preference for RWD though.

    You tell me, sdiver: I've done a little time pushing an S4 Avant around fairly hard; was I experiencing performance AWD? My reading tells me "yes", but a Porsche AWD has never been under my butt. If that's performance AWD, I liked it. I still would rather have the power going just to the rear, but I did like it; enough to be looking at owning it come May. OTOH, if I could find a compact RWD wagon, that's what I'd take.

    Maybe I'm stubborn...
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I just read the first test of the Zephyr, where Edmunds literally gushed over the car, with the kind of sentiment normally reserved for cars like the 3 series. They talk about the Ford Duratec like its one of the worlds greatest engines, and yet have complained about the exact same engine in other Ford's for its general crudeness. They then go on to talk about the "agressive" pricing at around $36K loaded. Agressive vs. who?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Merc1,

    I do not disagree with your post!

    MB is renowned for its ride/luxury. And I may am very impressed with the MB3320CDI(I have a weakness for torquey diesels).

    But I think MB during the Juergen Schremp reign was a disaster!

    Cost cutting with lower quality in the luxry market is a death knell. And I first noticed this during 1998 when I sat in a ML320!

    I just hope Zetsche will focus on the important things that made MB great and will continue making MB great!

    What great things? MB's heritage is not only based on ride and luxury. But also quality, durability and reliability!

    I have family members with new Benzes and they are a far cry from those three qualities that I mentioned above. In fact those three qualities are intact in my wife's 83 MB300D.

    Hopefully the new CEO Zetsche will redeem MB from Schremp's blunders!
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Member Posts: 125
    Again, wale, a RWD preference is not my point, everyone is entitled to their informed opinion of course. It's the people knocking all AWD systems as FWD disguised or as something that does not belong on performance cars that are spreading provably false information. I thought the 959 removed all doubt in '86.... :confuse:
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    That small $54K super wagon ain’t enough evidence? Yep, take a liking for 911 Turbo. That should trip the family circuit breakers! Drive that baby and you’ll forget about this AWD/RWD nitpicking but quick.

    ;-)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The nice thing about the AWD turbo is its actually drivable by regular people. The GT2 is a nightmare that is definitely for experts only.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Where I live is actually a good case study really because on one road (Ogden Ave.) we have Lexus, Audi, BMW and Mercedes all right next to each other.

    Naperville/Aurora or Downers Grove/Westmont area?

    I think the 5-Series is close to the E in sales because it is somewhat newer and with the 525i it starts out cheaper than the E-Class. Even with all those models (M5 included) the E still has it beat in variants.

    M
  • dave328dave328 Member Posts: 30
    I happen to be one of those people who support the M as I happen to own one and is very satisfied. I wouldn't call the interior of the 5 god-aweful ugly, but I didn't particularly care for it. That was the main reason I chose the M over the 5. And I don't stick that in the face of every BMW buyer. But this comment by you is a bit condescending and disingenuous:

    M owners, try to enjoy your car without trying to make people who buy something else feel like they made a bad choice -- that's not the best way to feel good about something.


    when comments like this are being made by BMW owners:

    Can the taillights of the Infiniti M be any more obnoxious? Reason enough not to buy!

    It goes both ways.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Well you can always civilize the GT2. Just throw 210 lbs on the front end. You get the manlier RWD, the manlier badge, still have more power than a rank-and-file 911 Turbo, and come out looking like an expert. Shhhh, I won’t tell.

    I guess you can also get a Z06 and save 120 grand, AND it’s made in the US.

    ;-)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    First I found it kind of silly that some forum members would put so much emphasis on Consumers' Reports stats as a way to justify spending premium prices on LPS.

    But this sales stats bashing makes the Consumers Report followers look rational.

    The following logic or should I say illogic:

    Well October sales of my model was more than your model, therefore my model is better than yours!

    If you dont get any pleasure out of driving your car, well then I guess you may at least get some pleasure with the above statement. ;)
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    I happen to be one of those people who support the M as I happen to own one and is very satisfied. I wouldn't call the interior of the 5 god-aweful ugly, but I didn't particularly care for it. That was the main reason I chose the M over the 5.

    Remember that there is now an M5, so you'll have to be more specific. :P

    But this comment by you is a bit condescending and disingenuous:
    M owners, try to enjoy your car without trying to make people who buy something else feel like they made a bad choice -- that's not the best way to feel good about something.

    Every M owner I've ever met just absolutely loves driving their car. They've never made any comments about anyone else buying anything different.... They are just flat-out car lovers and enthusiasts.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Every M owner I've ever met just absolutely loves driving their car."

    Remember that there is now an M5, so you'll have to be more specific.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Understood. You sidestepped the S4 question, BTW. ;) However, I think some critics have a valid point about the disguising of FWD. Haldex seems a good case in point. A3 3.2Q is on the short list too (because smaller is better, says I), and even with Haldex, it's basically a FWDer with a rear support system for front wheelspin situations. I'd prefer things completely the other way round.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Yup, every M and M5 owner I've ever met just absolutely loves driving their car.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    So a A3 quattro should not really be called a quattro since its system does not resemble the awd of its Audi siblings.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Dewey -- I need to take a page out of your book of "how to be succinct."

    Consumer Reports does give facts, but I find little compelling in them in terms of the subjects that we discuss here which are rarely factual.

    The monthly sales figures, however, I do find at least "nice to know," but again they do not cause any particular course of action nor do they change or influence any of us, or better said, probably have very little influence upon any of us.

    It is a free forum, mostly -- so post the CR stuff all you want. I find it as useful as if the time of day was posted in the body a post. But I can page through that.

    Sales only give a part of the story. For example, then I'll shut up for a while, Audi came is dead last in sales again this month on this list. But for Audi and Audi of America October 2005 was one of their best months EVER; and, year over year numbers, etc, were "smokin'."

    Perspective is lacking in the numbers -- but I certainly hope they continue to be posted.

    Emotion and subjective ratings are not CR's forte, so repeating their reliability ratings from my perspective would be like marrying someone who's mother died at age 100, as if that would be an indicator of your spouse's potential longevity.

    I loved your October sales of mine prove mine is better than yours, too. You cracked me up.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The TT uses a haldex system as well, rather than the usual Audi torsen system. Still, to 99% of people AWD is AWD, and Audi can call it whatever they want. The Quattro name has 25 years of history behind it, some new name just for the haldex cars would have no history. Not really a smart business decision.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    March thru October 2005 Sales:

    5 = 34,029
    M = 19,151

    Dropped my M off for it's 7.5K service and spoke with the owner. He told me that the 35-40% of his M sales have been the V8 (M45 and M45 Sport) and that was typical of Southern California dealers - their largest market. Now this is a guestimate but that would lead me to believe that probably a third of all Ms sold countrywide may be the V8 variety or approximately 6,380 sold. During this same period BMW sold 5,690 5-series V8 (545, 550, M5). I just wish I could find the actual sales figures for the M45 to stir up the pot a little. I do know that a few months ago when I was tracking M inventories over 40% of their cars in inventory were M45s, so the owners numbers seem legit. Does Infiniti sell more V8s than BMW?
  • freddybbfreddybb Member Posts: 95
    I realized after I posted my previous message that it may have offended M owners -- and for that I apologize.

    All I am trying to do is distinguish between praising or denigrating a car VS. praising or denigrating a car's owners or supporters (i.e., human beings)!

    It is OK to say "I can't stand the M interior" or "I hate the way the 5 looks".

    It is offensive and ridiculous to say "I can't imagine why anybody would like the interior of the 5" or "I think people who buy the M are doing so because they cannot afford the 5".

    But then again, we are all susceptible to the frailties of being only human :-)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well TGFT! Otherwise this thread would be so boring instead of one of the most dynamic and interesting on Edmunds.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I can't figure out why anybody would buy one of these LPS cars with an automatic transmission or without AWD.

    -- signed: "Often Wrong, Never Uncertain"

    And here I sits, with an auto trans, but at least AWD.

    Few posters here, apparently, with BMW 5xi's and probably fewer too that have 5xi's with the row your own transmission.

    Buyer's remorse? Well. . .maybe just a little. But, truth be told, I have been able to test drive the 530xi automatic (Step-lag-tronic) and the transmission, at least, is about the same as my A6 3.2 automatic (Tip-lag-tronic).

    When I drove the 530xi automatic, I came away thinking, "nice car," but not enough to make me switch from the Audi (this time.) The dilemma, of course, is with 31 months to go on my Audi lease, I wouldn't be in the market for about 26 months and the local BMW dealer says he will only customer order the 5xis with automatics -- none will be available for "stock" therefore no stick test drives. My luck, too, BMW will cave in just like Audi and Mercedes and basically withdraw the manual from the US market. :cry:

    I drive my wife's 2005 3.0 X3 manual whenever possible and "I can't imagine why anyone would get one of these machines with the automatic."

    I am in a minority probably a single digit minority.

    Why bother getting one without a stick -- unless like me, you have no choice.

    If anyone is offended by most of the comments made by most of us here, I would suggest taking a deep breath. A lot of us agree on a lot of things, a lot of us disagree on many things too.

    We all know that there is very little objective going on here -- but the dialog is engaging and almost always entertaining.

    Now go out and get a sport suspension equipped, AWD, manual transmission LPS car and apologize to the rest of us.

    Sarcasm is so hard in these blogs: :shades:
  • archichrisarchichris Member Posts: 11
    I have an Audi 2.7T [6-spd. man.] and while I know that a 540 handles better, I am so pleased to not see another A6 on the road every time I go driving. Call me an elitist, but the last thing I want is to drive up in a car that is as common as Corollas or Civics.

    Here in Houston, BMW's are the "Chevrolets" of this decade. They are everywhere. This in spite of the hideous "bangled" design. Yes, I know . . . forgive me, as I'm stepping on toes here, going out on a judgement "limb" but, as I have an advanced degree in design, I think I'm entitled :O)
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Well, I would say that if 40% of the M inventory is V8's then they definitely sell more V8's than BMW. Only about 16% of 5 series buyers buy 545/550s and a tiny percent buy M5's. I guess I'm not sure what the point of the question is though. I can say though that around where I live I see a lot more M35x's than M45's. I am surprised that Infiniti makes and sells so many V8's. I would think most buyers in this market would want V6's, but I guess I'm wrong.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The dealer may choose not to have 530xi MTs in inventory because of low general demand, but I dont think BMW will take them away from the US market. Remember, BMW is the company that caved to the US market and is offering a MT in the M5. Europe doesnt get one. I think BMW customers are the people most likely to want a MT in their cars.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I generally agree with this, but I also wonder, in part, if this just isn't wishful thinking on "our" part.

    True, the S4 (alone) Audi does still offer the MT, but a quick look at the inventory here at the Cincinnati dealers will find few manual transmissions. OK, OK, there are one or two TT's that have the manuals -- but TT sales are in the basement, and will remain so until the new body style, I would imagine.

    Does the A6 3.2 quattro come with a stick (option) in Europe? Anyone? Anyone?

    Is the lack of manuals in luxury PERFORMANCE cars due to the customers or has this just been forced upon us by a generation or two of auto only youngsters?

    I took my allroad 6spd manual to the car wash and the kid couldn't pull it into the wash bay -- the smell of cooking clutch filled the air, until I personally rescued this young man.

    As nicely as possible I questioned his manhood. I am a bad person. I know. :(
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    One other thing I'd add is that the M is cheaper than the 5, and that would come into play here as well. Let's leave the M5 out of the discussion because it's way more expensive than the M, but if you liked the 5 and M roughly equally, and you could get the M with a V8 for the same price as the 530 wouldn't you go with the V8 equipped car? I know not everyone would, but I sure would. No offense to anyone that does like it, but I don't happen to like the M as much as the 5 so what I'm saying wouldn't apply to me. But there are a lot of people that seem torn with the decision between the two.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Rich....I was trying to follow your preference because you stated you would go for the V-8 in the M if it was priced the same as the 530 ...and then stated but you personally don't like the M so it wouldn't apply to you and it almost sounded like you were a used car guy pitching a theory you really don't believe in. :confuse: you really do like BMW best ....Don't you?? ;)
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    No, I said if you liked the cars roughly the same it would make sense to choose the car with the V8 if it cost the sameas a V6 equipped car. At least, I think that's what I said. It's what I meant. Oh, you can be rest assured, I like BMW best (but I must admit that Audi is creeping into the mix!).
  • jshattnerjshattner Member Posts: 32
    Anybody know where I can find these? Some of the threads here have mentioned reviews and 0-60 timings, etc. but I have not been able to find a single review. For BMW's, which are probably the most-reviewed cars on the planet, I find it really strange that this model is supposedly shipping and no tester has tried one.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Did anyone catch this review of the Lincoln Zephyr? I admit I haven't seen one, let alone drive one, but the review is so gushing that if you changed every reference to the car to "Ferrari" it might still be considered over-flattering. Better get ready to trade in your M5s and E55s!

    First Drive: 2006 Lincoln Zephyr
  • bw45sportbw45sport Member Posts: 151
    Well October sales of my model was more than your model, therefore my model is better than yours!

    I thought sales was a rather strange way to judge the quality of a car too. There have been such compelling arguments to support it though I have been converted. :P

    Now that I'm absolutely convinced that sales determine the best car to drive, what do you do in the following case?

    March thru October 2005 Sales:

    E = 34,886
    5 = 34,029

    October 2005 Sales:

    5 = 4,880
    E = 4,670

    It all becomes very confusing. Do the above numbers mean I should drive an E in all months but October? :confuse: Or do I need to go back and find the individual monthly sales and trade each month when the car I'm currently driving is overtaken by the other? Or, is it really determined by cumulative totals for the year?

    Who knew it could be so tough to find the best car to drive?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    In this case people should buy either a E or a 5 based on a coin toss! :D
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The Zephyr which is based on the Mazda6 platform is no comparison in terms of performance/handling to a less expensive Mazda6speed!

    I would pick a non-LPS Mazda6speed anyday over a LPS Zephyr!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Pardon my last post, I meant Speed6 Mazda!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    LOL, it's a Mazda Mazdaspeed Mazda6 and see what Edmunds.com Editor in Chief Karl Brauer thinks of the name in his new blog here: http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/ and specifically Annoying Vehicle Names.

    not that any of this is on topic here ... :shades:
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Member Posts: 125
    You know, this forum has set me straight. No more Newcastle or Black and Tans for me, for now on it's Budweiser the sales leader. Or Michelob if Bud is not considered a Luxury Performance Beer. No more Morton's or Ruth's Chris for dinner, either, Outback clearly outsells them in the Luxury Performance Filet Mignon category, or is it Longhorn? :P
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Or drive both and decide for yourself that way.
    The E and 5 cater to different driving tastes though so I doubt if someone was interested in the E would checkout the 5 and vice versa.
    People testing the E probably would test it against the LS430 whereas folks evaluating the 5 would probably pit it against the M45 (like me).
    I live in a very conservative community (read rich and republican) and the E, S and LS430 predominate.
    I have the only 545.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "(read rich and republican)"

    I guess there is a conclusion that I can draw from that comment. Since I live in a community with lots of E, S, and 3,5,7ers I must live in a rich, democratic and liberal community.
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