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Comments
E = 34,886
5 = 34,029
Forget the comparos or what your impressions of the cars in this class lead you to believe, it's obvious the E Class is the best car in the class. As I've been told, sales figures don't lie.
:confuse: Dude did you even read the post that I was replying to? It would be nice if people who comment on my post would at least read in it context My comments were directed toward someone denigrating the M.
In my subjective opinion the interior of the 5 is ugly (sorry thats how I feel) and I absolutely do NOT feel like the BMW 5 is worth anywhere near $10,000 more than my M. I was replying to someone who condescendingly said that with the M (being $10,000 less than the M), you get what you paid for. I said it then and I'll repeat it here - for that I am glad :shades:
"Three victories have made the Pikes Peak International Hill Climb Race part of Audi’s successful motor sport history. In 1985 the race was won by Michèle Mouton, the first woman driver ever to win a world championship rally. A year later, the legendary American race driver Bobby Unser proved to be unbeatable, and in 1987 Walter Rohrl, driving the Audi Sport quattro S1, scored a much-admired overall victory by conquering the Peak in the new record time of 10:47.85 minutes."
I have seen the video and when Walter Rohrl is driving his car up the hill the tail IS hanging WAY the heck out there.
Four Audi driving schools (the first one actually had both Audi A4's quattros and two BMW 3's) too have proven that Audis do drift -- the difference is they can "drift" faster. The exercise we underwent was to drive a "figure 8" on ice with a quattro with four studded snow tires and ditto with a BMW RWD 3 series also with four studded snow tires.
The exercise which was called "steering with the throttle" demonstrated the abilities of both cars -- the BMW RWD was more "tail happy" that much is true -- but in a timed situation, the figure 8 course could be taken in a shorter period of time in the AWD car than in the RWD car (hence I concluded the Audi was taking the figure 8 at a higher speed.)
In the LPS world, the P stands for Performance. While I agree with the premise that most folks probably wouldn't know (under normal none too aggressive driving) if the car they were driving was FWD, RWD or AWD, it is "more than just nice" to know that the AWD car, while not being able to break the laws of physics can be driven in such a way to yield both higher performance and a higher margin of safety for those of us prone to having "stupid attacks."
Dr. Peich was darn near ridiculed back in 1979 or so when he proclaimed something to the effect that "all LPS cars will offer AWD someday -- we at Audi AG can do it today." Of course, the term LPS didn't exist at that time, or if it did it was not used frequently. Son of a gun, though, on the 25th anniversary of quattro if every one of the LPS cars under discussion in this forum (and some not) offers at least one flavor with AWD. Piech, love him or not, was prescient.
And, despite Audis current 50 50 bias F/R, several new Audis have caved in to the pressure and are offering quattro with 40 60 bias F/R. Not so the Acuras and Volvos which are sometimes (in the case of Volvos 60 "hot rod") 95 5 bias F/R.
As far as I'm concerned, Audi could have spent all their money making the A6 (et al) better weight balanced rather than simply 40 60 power distribution biased.
But that's just me.
All of the LPS cars offer AWD perhaps for marketing, perhaps for performance or perhaps as a legitimate response to the market. For years (in the US) a super majority of Audis were sold as AWD. At my local BMW dealer (the largest in Ohio, as if that matters) they sell about 1,300 cars per year -- four of the models currently come in AWD: 3, 5, X3 & X5 -- the owner of the dealership claims the AWD models (or as he says, the X-drive cars) are much harder to keep in stock, or put another way are not ever an inventory burden. Indeed, all the 5xi's on the lot were already spoken for, save one.
There is something to this -- or at least there must be. Most of us drive these LPS cars, I assume, for Luxury AND Performance. The cars discussed in this forum all offer AWD one can conclude because the L and P quotient is at its/their pinnacle when one configures his/her LPS car with AWD.
The market for AWD across the board is on a growth path -- and it seems 2WD will be less and less dominant as each year passes.
Most of this, of course, is opinion -- some of it, significantly, is fact.
Drive it like you live. :shades:
525 15,422 (37.5%)
530 18,661 (45.4%)
545/550 6,691 (16.3%)
M5 367 (0.9%)
Don't have a breakdown for cars sold with the sport package but it looks like the general public opts for the 6 cylinder. However I believe the BMW owners on this forum have almost all chosen the 8 so it looks like this forum may not represent the views of your "typical" 5-series owner. IMHO
Does that make her a zippity duda?
I can't understand that other dude hating the 5's interior.
I got the report back from my local CSI and the scrapings came back positive for burnished walnut.....
For example, I already have an E and SL so I don't need to trade.
I hear the 2006 models have been programmed for automatic time adjustments for DST and ST.
I should have waited.
Rear Wheel bias, performance AWD cars can throttle steer just fine. In fact, with ATESSA, an AWD car IS a RWD car above ~25 mph. This discussion kind of reminds me of the late 80's, when ABS was just coming onto the scene. Many performance enthusiasts were convinced it was needlessly complex and an expert driver could modulate brakes just as well as ABS. That is, until Car and Driver and others ran a series of race results showing the results of ABS equipped cars versus non-ABS cars. Now, every car has ABS.
Again, people knocking AWD have never had a performance AWD equipped car.
You tell me, sdiver: I've done a little time pushing an S4 Avant around fairly hard; was I experiencing performance AWD? My reading tells me "yes", but a Porsche AWD has never been under my butt. If that's performance AWD, I liked it. I still would rather have the power going just to the rear, but I did like it; enough to be looking at owning it come May. OTOH, if I could find a compact RWD wagon, that's what I'd take.
Maybe I'm stubborn...
I do not disagree with your post!
MB is renowned for its ride/luxury. And I may am very impressed with the MB3320CDI(I have a weakness for torquey diesels).
But I think MB during the Juergen Schremp reign was a disaster!
Cost cutting with lower quality in the luxry market is a death knell. And I first noticed this during 1998 when I sat in a ML320!
I just hope Zetsche will focus on the important things that made MB great and will continue making MB great!
What great things? MB's heritage is not only based on ride and luxury. But also quality, durability and reliability!
I have family members with new Benzes and they are a far cry from those three qualities that I mentioned above. In fact those three qualities are intact in my wife's 83 MB300D.
Hopefully the new CEO Zetsche will redeem MB from Schremp's blunders!
;-)
Naperville/Aurora or Downers Grove/Westmont area?
I think the 5-Series is close to the E in sales because it is somewhat newer and with the 525i it starts out cheaper than the E-Class. Even with all those models (M5 included) the E still has it beat in variants.
M
M owners, try to enjoy your car without trying to make people who buy something else feel like they made a bad choice -- that's not the best way to feel good about something.
when comments like this are being made by BMW owners:
Can the taillights of the Infiniti M be any more obnoxious? Reason enough not to buy!
It goes both ways.
I guess you can also get a Z06 and save 120 grand, AND it’s made in the US.
;-)
But this sales stats bashing makes the Consumers Report followers look rational.
The following logic or should I say illogic:
Well October sales of my model was more than your model, therefore my model is better than yours!
If you dont get any pleasure out of driving your car, well then I guess you may at least get some pleasure with the above statement.
Remember that there is now an M5, so you'll have to be more specific. :P
But this comment by you is a bit condescending and disingenuous:
M owners, try to enjoy your car without trying to make people who buy something else feel like they made a bad choice -- that's not the best way to feel good about something.
Every M owner I've ever met just absolutely loves driving their car. They've never made any comments about anyone else buying anything different.... They are just flat-out car lovers and enthusiasts.
Remember that there is now an M5, so you'll have to be more specific.
Consumer Reports does give facts, but I find little compelling in them in terms of the subjects that we discuss here which are rarely factual.
The monthly sales figures, however, I do find at least "nice to know," but again they do not cause any particular course of action nor do they change or influence any of us, or better said, probably have very little influence upon any of us.
It is a free forum, mostly -- so post the CR stuff all you want. I find it as useful as if the time of day was posted in the body a post. But I can page through that.
Sales only give a part of the story. For example, then I'll shut up for a while, Audi came is dead last in sales again this month on this list. But for Audi and Audi of America October 2005 was one of their best months EVER; and, year over year numbers, etc, were "smokin'."
Perspective is lacking in the numbers -- but I certainly hope they continue to be posted.
Emotion and subjective ratings are not CR's forte, so repeating their reliability ratings from my perspective would be like marrying someone who's mother died at age 100, as if that would be an indicator of your spouse's potential longevity.
I loved your October sales of mine prove mine is better than yours, too. You cracked me up.
5 = 34,029
M = 19,151
Dropped my M off for it's 7.5K service and spoke with the owner. He told me that the 35-40% of his M sales have been the V8 (M45 and M45 Sport) and that was typical of Southern California dealers - their largest market. Now this is a guestimate but that would lead me to believe that probably a third of all Ms sold countrywide may be the V8 variety or approximately 6,380 sold. During this same period BMW sold 5,690 5-series V8 (545, 550, M5). I just wish I could find the actual sales figures for the M45 to stir up the pot a little. I do know that a few months ago when I was tracking M inventories over 40% of their cars in inventory were M45s, so the owners numbers seem legit. Does Infiniti sell more V8s than BMW?
All I am trying to do is distinguish between praising or denigrating a car VS. praising or denigrating a car's owners or supporters (i.e., human beings)!
It is OK to say "I can't stand the M interior" or "I hate the way the 5 looks".
It is offensive and ridiculous to say "I can't imagine why anybody would like the interior of the 5" or "I think people who buy the M are doing so because they cannot afford the 5".
But then again, we are all susceptible to the frailties of being only human :-)
-- signed: "Often Wrong, Never Uncertain"
And here I sits, with an auto trans, but at least AWD.
Few posters here, apparently, with BMW 5xi's and probably fewer too that have 5xi's with the row your own transmission.
Buyer's remorse? Well. . .maybe just a little. But, truth be told, I have been able to test drive the 530xi automatic (Step-lag-tronic) and the transmission, at least, is about the same as my A6 3.2 automatic (Tip-lag-tronic).
When I drove the 530xi automatic, I came away thinking, "nice car," but not enough to make me switch from the Audi (this time.) The dilemma, of course, is with 31 months to go on my Audi lease, I wouldn't be in the market for about 26 months and the local BMW dealer says he will only customer order the 5xis with automatics -- none will be available for "stock" therefore no stick test drives. My luck, too, BMW will cave in just like Audi and Mercedes and basically withdraw the manual from the US market.
I drive my wife's 2005 3.0 X3 manual whenever possible and "I can't imagine why anyone would get one of these machines with the automatic."
I am in a minority probably a single digit minority.
Why bother getting one without a stick -- unless like me, you have no choice.
If anyone is offended by most of the comments made by most of us here, I would suggest taking a deep breath. A lot of us agree on a lot of things, a lot of us disagree on many things too.
We all know that there is very little objective going on here -- but the dialog is engaging and almost always entertaining.
Now go out and get a sport suspension equipped, AWD, manual transmission LPS car and apologize to the rest of us.
Sarcasm is so hard in these blogs: :shades:
Here in Houston, BMW's are the "Chevrolets" of this decade. They are everywhere. This in spite of the hideous "bangled" design. Yes, I know . . . forgive me, as I'm stepping on toes here, going out on a judgement "limb" but, as I have an advanced degree in design, I think I'm entitled :O)
True, the S4 (alone) Audi does still offer the MT, but a quick look at the inventory here at the Cincinnati dealers will find few manual transmissions. OK, OK, there are one or two TT's that have the manuals -- but TT sales are in the basement, and will remain so until the new body style, I would imagine.
Does the A6 3.2 quattro come with a stick (option) in Europe? Anyone? Anyone?
Is the lack of manuals in luxury PERFORMANCE cars due to the customers or has this just been forced upon us by a generation or two of auto only youngsters?
I took my allroad 6spd manual to the car wash and the kid couldn't pull it into the wash bay -- the smell of cooking clutch filled the air, until I personally rescued this young man.
As nicely as possible I questioned his manhood. I am a bad person. I know.
First Drive: 2006 Lincoln Zephyr
I thought sales was a rather strange way to judge the quality of a car too. There have been such compelling arguments to support it though I have been converted. :P
Now that I'm absolutely convinced that sales determine the best car to drive, what do you do in the following case?
March thru October 2005 Sales:
E = 34,886
5 = 34,029
October 2005 Sales:
5 = 4,880
E = 4,670
It all becomes very confusing. Do the above numbers mean I should drive an E in all months but October? :confuse: Or do I need to go back and find the individual monthly sales and trade each month when the car I'm currently driving is overtaken by the other? Or, is it really determined by cumulative totals for the year?
Who knew it could be so tough to find the best car to drive?
I would pick a non-LPS Mazda6speed anyday over a LPS Zephyr!
not that any of this is on topic here ... :shades:
The E and 5 cater to different driving tastes though so I doubt if someone was interested in the E would checkout the 5 and vice versa.
People testing the E probably would test it against the LS430 whereas folks evaluating the 5 would probably pit it against the M45 (like me).
I live in a very conservative community (read rich and republican) and the E, S and LS430 predominate.
I have the only 545.
I guess there is a conclusion that I can draw from that comment. Since I live in a community with lots of E, S, and 3,5,7ers I must live in a rich, democratic and liberal community.