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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    Things must have changed since I lived in Chicago. Hoffman Estates used to be "the other side of the tracks" from Barrington.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well I'm sure some parts of it is, or either the area I was in is still part of Barrington.

    M
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Ah the Chicago area...Naperville is very nice too...but one of our favorite things to do on a warm summer afternoon is drive the lake roads down and settle in for some great music with friends at a Ravinia concert in Highland Park. :shades:
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Almost every day it is possible to see a BMW commercial.

    From time to time if I am watching A&E or another apparently more erudite broadcast or cable outlet, I will see an Audi commercial.

    Even less frequently I will see a LOCAL ad apparently co-opted by Audi on the LOCAL news -- and the two dealerships in Cincinnati get a trailing slide with a local voice over.

    Of course there aren't many VW ads either, but, by comparison "they're everywhere" especially for the new Jetta (all grown up, sort of) and the new Passat (120 not so standard features.)

    Audi seems to be "content" with almost media obscurity.

    I see plenty of the new Infiniti ads, too -- and a whole host of non LPS advertising (the Avalon ads have ramped up in frequency recently, for instance.)

    I scratch my head in confusion whenever I get a link to an Audi ad and see what good stuff is produced apparently for the TV medium elsewhere in the world.

    No wait, I did see, once, the recent recreation of the Audi driving up the ski lift. The ad is eye catching and I think makes its point.

    But for a long time everytime I turned on the TV I could count on hearing the Led Zep tune and knew a Cadillac commercial was coming.

    I don't know if it could be said that Audi's vicious cycle, if broken, would encourage sales. I would assume it would not hurt and my instincts tell me it would help.

    My wife still mentions the wet tongue frozen pole ads for BMW's X drive and the four little angles flying alongside the BMW X5 "protecting" the driver from road hazards.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "But for a long time everytime I turned on the TV I could count on hearing the Led Zep tune and knew a Cadillac commercial was coming."

    You dont see so much of the Cadillac "Skyview" commercials for the SRX, followed by the tagline "Cadillac, Break Through" anymore. Probably because that literally happened on a few SRXes.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    D'oh!
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Year to date sales

    525 - 15,422 or about 38% of all 5-series sales
    530 - 18,661 or about 46% of all 5-series sales

    Sure the 530 sells more but not by that much. Interesting that the lease rates are lower for the 530 than the 525 which reduces the effect of the higher price for the 530. Think that has any effect on sales? I see plenty of 525s in SoCal. Fewer buy the 545/550 - although most 5-series owners on this forum opted for the V8.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Bangle's surface detailing may still make me feel like I swallowed Ipecac, but this has my interest:
    http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103566

    An M5 Touring would be fun factor to the nth degree. Too bad we'll never see it here.

    525: That's about the ratio I would have thought, but as I said, I don't believe I've seen but one!
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Well, we have the E55 wagon here. There's no way BMW will let Mercedes corner that market. Wherever one goes, the other will follow. Look at the new 6-series and the CLS-class. Granted one has 2 doors and the other 4, they both fill the same niche in the market.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I find it really strange that this model is supposedly shipping and no tester has tried one.

    It is shipping and it's fast. I've driven one myself.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Over a 3 year lease it would have cost me over $7000 more for the 550 than for my 545 just to achieve a fraction of a second decrease in 0-60 mph time.
    Otherwise the cars are virtually identical.
    Not worth it IMHO.
    Happy with only paying 2.4% interest instead of 6,24%.
    The 545 is plenty fast enough, thanks.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Well, they say we'll see it in a year, but I'll just wait for the celebration. From the press, I would say a lot depends on E55 sales volume. Sounds like they're watching that specifically.

    Seems wrong that they'd consider bringing that and they won't even drop a 330iT here. Now an M3 Touring, that would be something worth owning...

    Wagons rule. :)
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Wale Bate....I've been curious for some time about where it is that your flag represents and finally looked it up. Norfolk Island (East of the coast of Australia) A 2.5 hour flight from Sydney. Wow... sounds like a facinating place to live. Do you live still live there?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    although most 5-series owners on this forum opted for the V8.

    If everybody in this forum were representative of the real world every road/highway would be like a race track and all patrol officers would be working overtime! ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Seems wrong that they'd consider bringing that and they won't even drop a 330iT here. Now an M3 Touring, that would be something worth owning... .

    330iT now you got my attention! Currently an unlikely event.

    An M3 Touring in electric red! What more can you ask for? I heard that the upcoming M3 will arrive in non-coupe versions . That may imply a touring version(well at least I remain a optimist) :D
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Not necessarily. According to C&D, BMW will no longer offer a V8 powered 5 wagon in the states at all, let alone an M division car.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    I've always contended that when it comes to the 5-series BMW is in the rental business. Let's compare the 530i and M35. I generated figures using Edmunds prices plus I equipped the cars according to the typical options listed by Edmunds.

    BMW 530i with Premium Package, Dakota Leather, Automatic Transmission, Fold Down Rear Seat, Rear Door Mounted Side Airbags MSRP = $52,880, Invoice $48,485 TMV = $51,770.

    Infiniti M35 with Journey Package, Navigation System, Full Size Spare, Painted Splash Guards, Trunk Mat MSRP = $46,440, Invoice = $42,428 TMV = $45,953

    So if you buy the cars at TMV, it looks like a better equipped M35 will cost you $5,817 less than the 530i. But who buys a BMW? A majority lease them because who really wants to own one past it's warranty period? - plus BMW subsidizes their lease programs.

    If you lease the 530i (36 mo/36K miles) with a cap cost of $51,770, residual 62%, money factor of 0.00140 (3.36%) - the monthly payment is $645.72 + tax

    If you lease the M35 (36 mo/36K miles) with a cap cost of $45,953, residual 61%, money factor of 0.00202 (4.85%) - the monthly payment is $639.62 + tax

    So which one really costs more?
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    I hate disappointing anyone, JJ. I've never been there; I just like the flag and have a thing for Norfolk Island Pines, especially the groves planted in the 1800s on Maui!

    I have been fortunate enough to enjoy a number of different andwonderful places on this earth, hopefully my luck will hold and I'll get there too someday!
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Member Posts: 125
    Well, if you are shopping the non-performance end of the L(P)S market then the subsidized 530i pretty much cleans house when you include the free maintenance. Except the M has more technology gadgets and is as close to a 7 series in size as the 5 series. So slight edge back to M, but not a deal maker edge imho.

    The G, except in price, more closely competes with the 530i size and features wise at much lower cost. From a cost perspective, however, they compare it with the 3.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Disappointed...naw...well maybe a little. :blush: ....that's OK. But you mentioned Pines. Then you would like the towering White Pines in northern Wisconsin and particularly in the Door County area.(The Peninsula northeast of Green Bay.) A drive along the Lake Michigan shoreline of this land will inspire the horses in any engine and put the LPS vehicles to the test. Many narrow roads, hills, cliffs, curves, sand dunes and sheer rustic beauty while driving it. :shades: :D
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Audi, MB and BMW LPS have auras closely similar to each other in Europe nowadays. If any, MB are seen as more 'senior' and BMW as more 'sporty' LPS. But Audi LPS have a mixture of everything that make them very appealing for many.

    Thirty years ago the scenario was indeed different. Audi LPS—though already seen as very nice, performing cars— were clearly behind their German counterparts. It has been a long way for Audi to become a full member of the Luxury club. I believe Audi have achieved that because they have patiently combined beautiful design, technical innovations and attractive prices. Audi consistent wins in Le Mans and in some Sporty Sedan European Championships may have added selling value to their road siblings.

    (The above-said is not only my opinion or the opinion in Spain as I perceive it. It is shared by friends and acquaintances through Germany, England and France. Maybe I should explain that I have made long stages in those countries since the later Seventies of the past Century.)

    Perhaps Audi feel that they have to follow the same slow, patient path in the USA. Are they happy with their sales figures because of that?

    Just my two cents from this side of the ocean :)

    Regards,
    José
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    my take is a lot of people buy car's by the badge for the prestige. we all know the few of us nuts who hang out here absolutely do not represent the broad demographics of real car buyers in the US of A.

    That said, i'd a chance to look at an Avalon and an M side by side today again and if it had not been for the M's much much more spectacular drive quality that rivals the BMW, i'd say the Avalon is actually a more premium looking box than the M and also, sadly far less garish and less cheapo then the M. IMDHO.

    The fact that the BMW costs a bit more is basically inconsiquential over the 4 year/50K mile stretch. The included service pretty much makes up for it because they will replace the brakes 5 times if needed free of cost, they will even replace the wiper inserts 4 times a year with every season change without asking questions. What I personally hate about my BMW is the fact that i've to go to the service pit over and over again due to little irritating things that keep coming back. Even if all cost was included, it's still my time spent driving to the dealership and waiting to get issues sorted out. If i calculated the cost of my time wasted on my BMW, then it's a no brainer, drop it and run... sadly, i keep it because i'm addicted to the drive.

    I've to repeat, when i first saw the M at the NY auto show, i thought it looked better than the RL. Now I think, the RL may be a not so handsome brother/sister to the Acura TL, but atleast it's not like chromy and garish. I am completely turned off by the M looks and going back to my earlier point, irrespective of the people who hang out on edmunds, the broad majority of people out there who vote with their check book or cash vote for the E or the 5. I personally think the E is lovely and the 5 looks good, though, different.

    One side of me thinks, anything you buy is not premium anymore if everybody else has it. To me, a part of the premium definition is exclusivity. There are just a handful of SLR owners for example. Now that's truly the premium class... but wait, i'm not in the 150K market, so let me take a step back to my upper middle class reality and the fact that I can't buy a bentley and at the end of the day all of us others are just wannabe's who make up the entry level and the mid size premium wannabe car owners of MB's and BMW's and Lexuses and etc.

    BTW, i just read BMW is now the most selling premium brand even more than MB...

    back to work....
    ksso
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    "Then you would like the towering White Pines in northern Wisconsin and particularly in the Door County area..."

    Yeah, pretty safe bet I would, from the description!

    Norfolks are special though. They're a Jurassic throwback; one of the more primitive conifers on the planet that thrive in tropical marine areas. They just plain look cool.

    I have seen this morning a Dolphin S4 Avant. I have seen the same one (I think) once before on a very grey morning. It was inspiring then. Still is. Don't want the color per se, but the car? Ooo, baby.
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    Good post!! You said what I've been saying for some time now, that is, the gap is closing on all the LPS cars, and the competition is really heating up in some unlikely brands. Examples include the new Avalon and Passat. I know some of the badge worshippers on this forum will disagree, and all I can say is drive these vehicles and try to be impartial and not swayed by the perceived value of a particular brand. You can save yourself thousands of $$$, and still have a great drive!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    It's not only that some of us disagree. We are not here to discuss the pros and cons of the Avalon and Passat.
    There are other appropriate threads to discuss those vehicles.
    Please don't try to persuade us "badge worshippers" as you put it that we can save ourselves "thousands of $$$."
    WE"RE NOT INTERESTED!!!
    We are here to discuss the LPS listed above in "What is this discussion about?"
    Thank you. :sick:
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    Are you the designated spokesperson for everyone?
  • jonwardjonward Member Posts: 8
    I couldn't agree more. We had an 'o2 S430. Phone didn't work 75% of the time. The whole transmission had to be replaced. The tires wore out at 35,000 miles.

    The airbag (SRS) warning was on 90% of the time we had it. I asked the service guy if there was a danger the air bags would go off by accident. No, he said, the whole system is deactivated when the light is on. That wasn't rally comforting to me. I should have asked sooner than the fourth visit to the dealer.

    At one point my loaner (after a 90 minute wait) was a metallic Orange Ford SUV.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    No, hpowders doesn't carry the title of LPS forum spokesperson. He does carry the titles of "High Priest of 545 Superlatives and Exaggerations" and "World Record Holder of Most BMW Happy-Juice Drinking". ;)

    Hpowders: Just yankin' your chain a little... :P
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    He may not speak for everyone, but I have zero intention of discussing Avalon in here or anywhere else for that matter. Ditto Passat. That's not why I check on things in here...
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    A BMW M5 Touring may be here our shores sooner than we think!

    But reality will bite when we see its price tag! :sick:

    http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103566
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Beav, don't be a goof. I posted that yesterday. :P

    Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

    The wagon is better looking than the sedan, one has to admit. Still kinda pug-ugly, IMO. But it would still rock like Angus in short pants, I'm thinkin'...
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    You cant really blame Mercedes for the tires. 35K miles is not exactly unusual for performance tires. There are many with tread life ratings much lower than that.

    Speaking of bad loaners, Jag once stuck me with a Ford Taurus. I wasnt pleased about that.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    .. At least until the next E comes along packing AMG's new from the ground up 6.3L V8, at which point the M5 will be "pretty good".
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    I've been shopping all of the vehicles on this forum, and I think others doing the same would be interested to know that there are an increasing number of options to choose from. I'd almost settled on a M35, but I continue to look because there are some surprises out there that not only surpassed my expectations, but also are relative bargains. I try and keep an open mind, and not be swayed by marketing driven brand hype.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The proper decorum for this thread has been established ad nauseum by our illustrious host that we try to restrict ourselves to the above mentioned vehicles and the Avalon and Passat don't qualify.

    Also, I think I can safely say I do speak for most people who regularly visit the LPS thread that we surely don't want to hear that we can save some money by considering the Avalon and Passat instead of the Audi, Acura, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Infiniti and Lexus models labeled above.

    You are preaching to the wrong choir. :sick:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I kind of like those descriptions.
    Much better than those I hear after coming home at midnight after a wild poker game when all I can say is "DOH!"
    I resemble those remarks! ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I guess I am the bearer of musty old news again!

    I should stop getting my information from historic archives and start reading the news instead!

    So what does everybody think about the 1955 MB 300SL? ;)
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    You should shop what you want. I go into a new purchase surveying all options, and cast out those that don't appeal.

    I go into a thread about Lux Perf cars looking to discuss those. Nice and/or competent as they may or may not be, the Avalon and Passat are not in the category being discussed. They are available, have been noted, and other than an occasional passing reference are best covered in threads created for such purpose.

    You could create a new thread if you like. Perhaps something like Avalon/Passat v. Lux Perf Sedans.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    LOL!

    Just giving you a hard time, lad! ;)
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    The airbag thing is really troubling. The phone's an annoyance. But you got 35K on tires on a LPS? And you're complaining? Have you busted the 65mph cherry on your S?
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    My last set of rubber went 13K. These guys are right, 35K is muy fabuloso! :)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Where oh where can we discuss the Trabant [if not here]? :D

    Agree, I participate over at the Passat and X3 forums -- the Avalon is not the subject here, nor is the Passat. However, I won't quite go so far as to ostracize folks who mention their names (I'll leave that to the hosts.)

    I just got the Audi A6 survey # 2236 from JD Powers with the $1.00 bill in it. I am so sick of these surveys, why can't they survey us on the WWW and give us a credit at Amazon or something -- I detest filling in those little opti scan circles. After the first survey, I just pocket the buck.

    Again, I know I am a bad person -- but they should automate this by making it an e-survey.

    End of small rant
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I don't mind seeing their names every once in a while.
    I don't need to be told on the LPS thread that I can save a lot of money by buying a Passat or Avalon instead of an LPS.
    I don't need nor solicit that kind of help here.
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    hpowder, don't worry, i'm a bmw owner and am as much a sucker for brand name as any other upper middle class wannabe on this forum who claims they can dtect a difference between a 5.8 second 0-60 and a 6 second 0-60...

    LOL.

    When i compare an avalon to a M, i'm very much within the limits of this forum because i'm talking about the M. If I were to compare an avalon against an umm pontiac, you could have my butt whacked off..

    lastly nobody is dictating you to go buy either an avalon or the passat. this is a discussion bound by the rules of edmunds, not by your or my rules...

    take it easy.
    ;)

    ksso
  • jshattnerjshattner Member Posts: 32
    I've had 3 E's: 430 / 55 / 500 in last 8 years and no set has lasted more than 20k. Same for an earlier LS400 w/Z tires. I'd love to see 35k! As for the MB, my current E500 (2003) is gorgeous but the electronics (phone / cd / muting) are infuriating. Plus I had 4 windshield leak issues, the last of which fried my under-seat processor for the Xeon headlamps. My next car (January) will be either M45S or 550i. Gotta give MB a penalty box for now...
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The low profile 18" UHP summer tires on my Jag last 15K tops. I just put on a set of Goodyear Eagle F1s, which I think are an even better match to the car than the OEM Continentals. The 280 treadlife is also quite nice for this type of tire, most are rated half of that.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Unfortunately the article linked below does not provide any details about the new infiniti G35 engine, but at least we will get an idea of how the new re-skinned G35 will look like when viewed at the NY Auto Show

    2007 G35
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    I predict you will find the rain performance outstanding, LG.

    I'm on set number two of the DS-G3s, and I'm a happy camper. The sidewall is a touch softer than some of the competition, for which I compensate with a few extra psi, but the dry traction is at the top of the scale and the wet is unreal...
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Interesting, I've yet to run into a bad rainstorm in the Jag, but thats good to know. I was not impressed with the Pirelli and Toyo tires that I tried on the car, but I think the ride with the GYs is a bit better than the oem ContiSportContacts. In a related note, C&D has a comparison of 11 UHP tires, in which the GS-D3s placed first overall, with the Continentals in second.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=10252&page_number=1
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Does marketing work? As my old marketing book noted - there are 20 mountains higher than Pike's Peak in Colorado - name one. In the LPS market Pike's Peak = BMW and MB. The other contenders in the LPS market are like the other 20 mountains. They may be higher but they need to work extra hard to earn the name recognition of Pike's Peak.

    Back in the 70s Cadillac tried to sell a tool kit for their cars for $20. No one bought them so what did Cadillac do? They gold plated the exact same tools and charged $100. Now they couldn't keep them in stock. People falsely equated cost with quality and prestige - you get what you pay for? Doubtful, but their is no way that BMW and MB can compete on price - need that gold plating prestige.

    A "premium" vodka is Grey Goose. It's drinkers swear it's the best. So 20/20 did a blind taste test. The predictable results - Grey Goose was actually chosen as one of the worst tasting vodkas. If it were somehow possible to do a blind driving test of the LPS I suspect that many would choose a car other than their own as the best handling, most luxurious etc. Preconceived biases have a far greater effect on how well the buyer thinks a particular car handles in everyday driving than the actual handling characteristics of the car.

    A majority of LPS owners (this forum represent the more "hard-core" LPS buyers and not the majority) made a lifestyle choice when buying their car. Buying a BMW or MB says "I feel good about my success and have rewarded myself with a prestigious car". Owners know that when others see their car they will also equate that with their success thereby adding to the good feeling. Then there is that notion of buying superior "German Engineering"!? Despite their well documented reliability issues, poor electronics etc. this notion is still held today. Do you think a majority of LPS buyers read or even care what CR, MT etc. say about this market?

    So do people buy the badge? IMHO - you bet your sweet bibby they do! BMW and MB still own the LPS swagger in the USA and will continue to do so for quite some time.
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