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Comments
Coincidentally, Phaeton has in some way had a similar death than that of the original Phaeton, the son of the Sun (the Old Greek God Helios). Phaeton robbed the 4-fire-horses-equipped car of its divine father only to loose control and fall down to the Earth, where the full set sat a horrendous fire. :sick: Then Phaeton and the fire were both put out by the Gods. :mad:
Regards,
José
I wonder what all this means with respect to the big bux Touareg's -- VW has a hard time here at least convincing most folks that their dealerships are up to snuff.
I would think this alone would keep VW out of the LPS world for the foreseeable future.
My guess is that there will be a soon-to-be Audi Q7 V10 TDI that will replace the V10 TDI Tourareg! This substitution would eliminate VW dealership issues!
IMHO, VW is in big trouble as long as the Euro remains strong to the dollar.
BUT, from what I read on the Touareg boards here, they are plagued with problems. That's a big shame because it's such a nice vehicle, IMO. I think it should've existed in it's current form as an Audi instead. I don't like the looks of the upcoming Q7.
As far as I can tell by the internet the infiniti M35 sport seems to exceed the BMW on paper in every category. But true BMW owners know the feel that they get when they drive a BMW and other than a Porsche, I have yet to experience that with hardly any other car.
Also the I-Drive on the BMW looks like a pain in the butt. Any BMW owners out there who think that you get used to it and it becomes second nature? Or is it always a pain?
Any comments would be very helpful Thanks!
BUT...you get the option of a manual with the 5. How much is that worth? To some people, that would more than make up the difference.
If you don't need AWD (only on the 530xi and M35x), my choice would be the M45. You do have to ask yourself how you will feel in a year if you go with the Infiniti (even if you love it) as you seem to subconsciously (or not) want the BMW.
I'm not one to talk (since I had to have the M35x), but test drive, test drive, test drive.
I found them both to be quite noisy.
Handling not as good as my 545.
I imagine the handling would be similar in the 530i.
Gas mileage sucks in the M.
The only thing the M has over the BMW is the brakes-the best!
If the BMW didn't exist, I could probably force myself to like the M.
If you get the 530i, by all means get the sport package!
Also, kudos to you for actually asking a question that is relevant to this thread.
It's been a long time....
Maybe the remaining Phaetons (on leases) could steal some LPS dollars -- seems like a heck of a deal.
But, then the question and answer: "no I wouldn't lease it with your money."
I want smaller, more nimble, not bigger and more floaty, no matter what (note: this excludes the new S8 short wheel base of course.)
But when your BMW X3 is $581/month it does give you pause.
As for BMW's iDrive system, once you've programmed everything to suit your particular preferences, there is seldom any need to use it. Conventional switches & controls exist to control everyday functions such as A/C temp/blower speed, radio/CD mode & track/station number selection and various other functions.
As an example of the iDrive capability, you can program steering wheel switches to control A/C and radio/CD functions. Want an alarm to go off at a programmed speed or the doors to automatically lock when taking off? No problem with iDrive!
To duplicate the functional capability of iDrive, you would need several hundred switches/controls on the dashboard, which would rival the cockpit of a 747.
To make a long story short, most of the criticism about the iDrive system comes from people who know little to nothing about it.
As consumers continue to demand more and more functional capability in their cars, manufacturers are being forced to employ some form of menu-driven system to avoid a bewildering array of switches/controls. Like it or not, this is the future!
Martin
That's all there is to it.
I'm no technology genius and if I find it easy, it's easy!
By the way, the only time I use it now after 4.5 months with my 545 is to check my ongoing mpg.
One move of the iDrive knob to the right and I get this information on the display screen.
iDrive is terrific!
Drive both at speed and you'll find as Car and Driver found...the M45 is in a separate league from the 530 and easily able to hold its own with the 545/550...with the interior room that slots it right between a 5 and 7 size wise. In fact, does the 530i even belong in the LPS class when an Altima will show it Nissan taillights?
Road and Track found the M besting the 545i Sport in skipdpad, slalom*, and braking...R&T gave the BMW points for road feel at slower speeds. They called objective performance "nearly dead even" and real world performance "every bit as quick".
*Feb test.
I test drove all the LPS - here are some things I considered:
* How's their driving experience and could I really tell the difference in 99% of my daily driving?
* Which exterior styling attracted me the most and which interior felt most comfortable - after all that's where I'm spending most of my time. How about the gadgets?
* Do I want a more performance-oriented car, a more luxurious-oriented car or one that is more well-rounded?
* How much prestige do I need to have - this refers to the "badge" and I believe it is a factor in the segment IMHO.
* Which car did I feel was most reliable, especially with all the electronics found in these cars. I know it's covered under warranty but I hate going to the service department for something that should have never broke in the first place.
* The dealer service experience.
Most people NEED basic transportation but LPS buyers WANT more. Rationally a Honda makes more sense than either car but emotionally who doesn't want a LPS instead? (actually I really want a Ferrari) You have to ask yourself if I bought an Infiniti (or BMW) and I pulled up to a stoplight next to a BMW (or Infiniti) would I glance over and think to myself "I should have bought that one" for whatever reason.
You seem predisposed to BMW so I suspect that the Infiniti has to be a whole lot better than the BMW for you to really consider it. Say you give the Infiniti a 55-45 edge over the BMW, you'll probably still buy the BMW....just human nature.
The M is Infiniti's first serious attempt at competing in this market. Imagine how good the car will be in future generations - the fact that they can compete with the heritage of the 5-series is compelling. They could increase the handling and decrease the road noise by simply changing their choice of OEM tires. What other improvements will they come up with?
I tend not to listen to forum members who only praise their cars - I'm more interested in those who criticize their cars and give a more fair and balanced (sorry Fox News) opinion of their ownership experience. I have actually owned a 911, a M-B, a BMW, a Lexus and now Infiniti. Each had it's own unique characteristics - some great and some really bad.
Oh....to answer your question. I would have been happy with either car. It was close but I chose the M. When I'm at a stoplight next to a BMW (happens alot in SoCal) I have never regretted my choice. I feel very fortunate that I'm even making this choice at all.
Anyhow I still get a kick about using comparisons. If a test says my car is the best....well then it's "proof" that I made the right choice. If a comparison says another car is the best....well that test had serious flaws in it's methodology or the editors didn't know what they were talking about or had biases.
Will be interesting to see how long it will be until someone posts a comparison that refutes your statement.
Now I'm LOL!!
Of course the M45 Sport with its powerful V-8 IS in a separate league when comparing it to the anemic inline 6 of the 2005 530i.
The comparison was disgraceful and should never had been made.
The M45 sport should only be compared to the 545/550.
It was and the 545 non-sport beat it according to Motor Trend.
And who am I to argue, IMNSHO?
Ha! You nailed it! Good one!
One thing that would help is an extra cog (or two) in the transmission. Some here have complained that the M "cruises" at a rather high rpm compared to some of its competitors. A tall 6th or 7th gear designed specifically for highway speed with the lowest possible rpm would help the M's noise problems, as well as deliver better highway fuel economy.
The M35 is a nice car, but the dash has more buttons than a computer slot machine. In my opinion, it was very distracting.
Also check the maintenance schedule for the M35. Some of the Japanese LPS required service every 4000 miles.
Just my thoughts.
Agree with you 100%....other improvements for the M have been suggested in other forums as well. Considering that they started from scratch, the Infiniti engineers did a hell of a job out of the gate. Will be interesting to see how this segment evolves. The point is that EVERY LPS could use improvements. I'll refrain from making suggestion for other LPS cars. Their owners should share their recomendations....after they praise their car as being the best ever of course.
LOL again....twice in a day...man I need to get a life.
The over/under was 60 minutes...I took the over and lost! (sarcasm intended).
BMW 3 Series
BMW 5 Series
BMW 7 Series
BMW X5
MB C-Class V6
MB CLK
MB E-Class
MB M-Class
Doesn't that covers the vast majority (90+%) of '04 BMW & MB on the street?
Note that of all the Audi, only the S4 V6 has better-than-average. Some Audi & MB models are not rated (insufficient data) ot not listed.
By browsing the other models, BMW & MB perfectly blend with Buick, Chevrolet, Ford and VW in terms of reliability ('04 models): predominantly below average.
Conclusion: boy am I happy with my M45 instead of these other prestigious clunky cars...
The G is supposed to get a total redesign for '07, and if its anything like the M, the 3 series should watch its back. I'm sure unlike the IS350, the Infiniti will have 1. a 6-speed manual, and 2. an off switch for the stability control. I'm also pretty sure they are going to push the VQ even farther in order to take the power crown back from Lexus. I think the rumor is something like 3.7L.
My final choices came down to the BMW 545 AND M45. I felt the performance, handling, overall drivability were pretty evenly matched. For enthusiasts, the BMW is unquestionably the benchmark for this class but I think the M is every bit the equal in that arena. I know it's not easy to overcome prejudice over your pet brand but if you were objective, the two cars are pretty close, IMO. I think other factors, such as tire pressure, tire sizes, sport/non-sport packages will have far more effect in differentiating the feel of the cars than the cars themselves. I think Infiniti really hit the mark with the M.
After you give both cars a fair shake and you still feel the BMW is the better driver, good for you. The choice should be simple, all things being equal. As others have said, the i-drive is not that big of a deal. Most of the bad press is from the magazine testers and they really don't count much as they only spend a few hours or at most few days with the car. My impression of i-drive is that once you've lived with it for a little bit, it's no big deal.
But if you feel the cars are pretty close in terms of performance, than other things like exterior styling and interior appointments become the deciding issues. For me, it was not even close. The Infiniti's interior was head and shoulders above the BMW. It just felt fresh and right to me. Despite some negative press about the BMW's styling, I like the Chris Bangle styling. Although the BMW's 5 may be a bit over-styled, I like the overall effect and prefer it to the Infiniti's. I find the M45 long and narrow and doesn't have the BMW's presence. However, the M's rear room is pretty generous and for me that was a factor as well. For me the interior of the car is much more important than the exterior. Frankly, it's hard to be moved by almost any three box design that most sedans are subjected to.
Good luck with your decision and let us know what you decide.
I would rather get 20mpg than 16.
That comes to about $1500 more out of my pocket over a 3 year lease if I got the M45.
In the December 2005 issue, CR upgraded the 5 series 6 cylinder sedans to average or better.
So cross that one off your "clunker" list.
We can now put the 5 series back on the "Prestigious and Wonderful" list.
That must mean that LPS cars sell more than the rest, eh?
Maybe some folks (maybe that includes me, too) actually do look at the CR ratings and use them to make decisions.
I doubt it. Indeed, it would seem that being on the CR "below average" list is an indication of what will be popular.
It must be clear or at least pretty clear that we buy our cars like we pick our friends and spouses -- we do not get objective data, or we get very little or even if we get a lot we ignore most of it.
We buy these LPS cars (and probably most of the other cars edmunds allows us to talk about) based on entirely subjective (emotion emotion emotion) reasons.
The M's are clearly (?) the best cars no matter how you approach things. BMW's are clearly so resting on reputation.
Hogwash.
These cars (and of course I know since I've driven most of them) are fraternal siblings -- or at least they have all made great efforts to be more alike than different.
Yet the big CR "losers" or so it would seem (the BMW and Mercedes) are forever at the top of the sales list, month after month.
I do so love reading the above 18 posts (and generally, almost all the posts) but reading them only convinces me that we live in some pretty great times to be shopping for an LPS car. Lots of choices, not too much difference between them -- but oh the emotions these objects of desire evoke.
By the way since the Audi A6 was proclaimed the world car of the year or whatever, it really, seriously is the gen-u-wine best. No, really, I have proof. :surprise:
Should help boost sales even more.
No matter what we think of CR and its auto rating methods, it is influential to a lot of folks shopping out there.
The 2 best forums on Edmunds in MNSHO are the LPS and High End Luxury Marques.
While I can only dream about many of the vehicles discussed in the latter, I always enjoy the stimulating and many times brilliant posts that I find there. That thread can be renamed "Mercedes Against The Rest Of The World."
I forced myself to let the comments go so as not to become irritated. I just looked at it as a bit of human nature (and BMW brainwash..., er, training). It's common for man to try to downplay and/or insult something that poses a genuine threat. I was thinking to myself, "Yeah. Whatever helps you sleep at night, dude."
Anyway, this gas mileage talk is interesting. I'd be curious to know what 5-series owners (mainly the V8s) are getting in real world figures. The EPA sticker is one thing, but what you actually get is often much different. From what I've read, the Infiniti M is getting what the sticker says for the most part. It seems the 35 is the one that's having a problem staying on the wagon in terms of fuel consumption.
I'm sure Messerschmitt and Focke-Wolfe probably had similar feelings about the Spitfire and Hurricane. How'd that work out?
Unfortunately, the BMW arrogance springs from the fact that at this time they can afford to be.
That is not at all a suitable analogy! Let us focus on WW1 instead of WW2!
The German Fokker D.VII is for many the best fighter aircraft of the First World War.
During 1918 the airplane was then fitted with the new 185-horsepower B.M.W engine. . This B.M.W.-powered model, known as the D.VIIF, was most popular among German pilots, but could only be supplied in small numbers.
Better Analogy:
The Infinit Ms are like the RAF S.E5 and Spad fighters!
While BMW 5s are like the BMW powered planes mentioned above!
Not one person checked CR before buying.
Not one person even knew what the reputation of their beloved car was (other than their own perception.) My office manager thinks Saturns are the best in their segment and she even knows things about Saturns that I wouldn't have thought she would be into.
One, no two, of the folks purchased used vehicles and they were very clear that they chose their brand because the Ford is better than the Chevy or vice versa.
The guys with the LPS cars were, unlike us here on edmunds, almost oblivious to anything else, but the best brand (the one they chose.) "I got the BMW because it is a BMW, need I say more?" kind of thing.
When I brought up the subject of CR, most folks had heard of it but couldn't remember the last time they ever used it for research or as a "significant" reason to buy.
I have, personally, found that the emotions expressed here in these formums (here on edmunds and elsewhere to be fair) to be far more compelling than anything objective (or subjective in the Car Magazines that I do so love to read) I can think of.
I was swayed to the M's in significant part due to the folks here. I tested BMW's because I had to think there was something more than lemming-like behavior going on with THAT brand (I was right, it was not just lemming-like behavior.)
So, my completely bogus and unscientific survey of 33 folks turned up less than zero influence from or by CR.
Maybe CR's ratings do drive some auto sales -- it is just you couldn't prove this by me.
I'll still bet that regardless of what CR says you'll buy with your heart not your head.
And I say this as a left-brained type (a systems, analysis, computer programming type, tech-weenie.)
CR reports that the M35x (17/24) gets 18 mpg. So I'd expect the M45 (17/23) to get 17-18 mpg.
In any case, the real world mileage difference between the 550i and the M45 is probably more like 1 mpg.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/fuel-economy-1005/cu-vs-government-tests/- - - vehicle-results-models-a-to-c.htm
Also completely bogus and unscientific, but slightly less so than your findings
I was somewhere in-between with the M. I was unsure about buying for the long-term and their interest rates were between BMW and Lexus. I decided to lease for 42 months and let Infiniti take all the resale risks.
By the way, residual values are based on MSRP. Because Lexus has such a wide spread between MSRP and invoice they can offer much larger discounts. If you took the lease purchase option price and then calculated the residual value based on the actual selling price you would find that the 5-series, M and GS all have about the same value. This is pretty close to being an actual fact - it's easy enough to generate your own numbers to verify. Companies have a vested interested in perpetuating their strong resale values myth.
Unfortunately, the BMW arrogance springs from the fact that at this time they can afford to be.
Hmm....I thought I had the opposite experience when doing the same shopping. Maybe I just couldn't recognize their speechless look of resignation? Interesting fact though.
Are you sure you aren't confusing resignation with sympathy?
There is a difference (big) between arrogance and confidence. It sounds like that particular BMW salesman was more defensive than anything else.
Here in Grand Rapids, I found more arrogance at the Lexus dealer than the BMW dealer when shopping the M against the GS and 5 (sorry, Merc, I didn't step into the MB dealership)
I have no way of really knowing, but I think that there are probably more Honda/Toyota owners reading CR than Audi or BMW owners.
No it was that "lost another loan to Ditech" type look.
After I left the Infiniti dealerships, once the door closed behind me they probably put on that exasperated look ala James Finlayson in those priceless L & H films, and let out a resounding DOH!!! :sick:
I have had a high of 23 mpg which was about 80% highway, 20% city.
On the highway exclusively my mpg has been as high as 27.
15 fillups. Average comes out to 20.4 mpg.
I call those statistics an absolutely virtuoso performance for a V-8 and really shows the incredible genius of the engineers at BMW.
Let's face it, the V-6 Infiniti M35 doesn't even approach those kind of numbers!*
Upon further research and reflection:
*Correction to the above: the Infiniti M35 and the 545 are approximately equivalent in mpg.
It seems the M35 and 545 are just about equivalent in mpg.
I will change it in my post above.
Here's another nice mess I've gotten myself into.
DOH!!