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Comments
First and foremost I hardly know my service manager and I owned my BMW for 7 years!
Regarding your question below:
1)Why do people drive MBs or BMWs?
Hmmm interesting question!
I myself would like to ask a similar question:
2)Why do people drive Infinitis, Audis, Lexuses and Cadillaces
Have you ever thought the possibility that many in groups #1 and #2 above have similar if not identical motives? In fact dont these two groups share the same thing which you refer to as "Human Nature"?
Would rather save the money for a family Antactic trip!
I'm jealous... I wish I didn't know the service managers! (even though they were nice fellows) If there is a 1 in a 1000 chance of a lemon, I'll be drinking that lemonade.
Your questions 1 and 2 are 100% correct. Actually I think many of the same motivational factors apply to all LPS, it's just the thread seemed headed in a teutonic direction plus I didn't know the guys at Lexus. Not sure that Infiniti has the same brand identity as the other players in this group.
Don't blame (or give me credit) for the human nature theme... somebody else deserves that.
Right now!
Sounds like a quandary in the making.
Correct, despite the handling an AWD Accord would be kind of compelling at a reasonable price.
And I hate to admit this but you are correct again that an AWD 08 Accord is quite unlikely.
A 08 or 09 Acuara TL with AWD and 6 speed could be a far better alternative. And hopefully the level of handling will at least be competitive with other LPS!
A MazdaSpeed6 is on my radar screen, BUT unfortunately I am not such a great fan of the Mazda6 as a Accord fan.
As far as I know the Mazda i4 engines are flawless in terms of reliability!
The MazdaSpeed6 has a 2.3l turbo engine! Unfortunately That good book called CR has no reliability stats on this Mazda engine.
Stirring up the pot never hurts.
I already posted that if I could find a $28k car that handled as well as a BMW, I wouldn't hesitate in switching, but unfortunately, that will never happen in my lifetime.
The detractors, on the other hand, are extremely serious and that's why I absolutely love getting their goat.
They are a gullible bunch!
Yeah it's a great car and I can't wait to see what the next 5 series has in store, but there are more important things in life.....like the Porsche 911, for example.
crush 2 cloves of garlic
add 1/2 teaspoon of taro root
blend for 30 seconds
sprinkle liberally with witch's wart powder
and presto:
the dreaded black circle!
Ok, but let me ask you this, you think Acuras are good looking cars?
For the best DB9 I'll have to do some digging.
M
Well just picture me jumping up and down on a table in disagreement. I think you have to look at the whole car to appreciate the grille, not just the grille itself, IMO. It fits on the A8 and A4 better than the A6, IMO of course.
M
I think you're going to be really pleased if you subscribe to Motor Trend. They have an article about how Chris Bangle is changing the face of automotive design and the cars they think he has influenced, of which very few of them I agree with. Jan issue.
M
I would never subscribe to Motor Trend as I find their comparos disappointingly concise; but I will stand in Publix and read the article.
I'm not knocking the RL. I have never criticized the RL.
I, myself do not really care for the Honda/Acura policy of one size fits all.
Not everybody needs navigation. I sure wouldn't want it. Yet with the RL one has to pay for it anyway. I still feel choice is good, especially at that price tag.
Why should Bangle step aside?
His E60 design is one of the few success stories in the automotive industry over the last several years. Most of the other automotive news has been dismal.
The E39 had a boring, we've been here before, uninspiring look.
I still see a few on the road. Reminds me of a slightly larger E46. Same old. Same old.
Sales of the 5 series picked up dramatically after Bangle stepped in and invigorated it.
You cannot dispute that he helped create a mega hit.
Have sales of the E60 ever been down over the last 2 years?
Please help me. I want to know why.
Having to drive a minimum of 45 miles for service on my Audis helped to make the decision. The A6 was the best, most beautiful, best handling car I've ever had. The TT was the most fun... if a bit loud at speed.
The RL does what it does very well, and it will most likely not have reliability issues, plus the navigation systems is the BEST by far. However, I could not get past the fact that it looks like an Accord, and many people consider it an upscale Accord.
I drove the M35; it is a GREAT car. I did not have the pleasure to drive the M45. The M35 was awesome, in my humble opinion. It had plenty of power, and a beautiful interior. In fact, I thought the M's interior was the nicest of any car I have seen. The gadgets are really cool, Bluetooth works very well, and the Navigation is top notch, coming in a close second to Acura. The handling of the M is good, but a COUPLE NOTCHES BELOW the 5 Series, in my humble opinion. As with the Acura, I could not get past the fact that many people still view Infiniti as an upscale Nissan.
Now, the 530 was a complete pleasure to drive, its handling was the best, in my humble opinion. I think the look is very classy and sporty. The interior is adequate with a simple elegance, but not as nice as the M's. The Navigation works, but it is behind the Bell Curve set by Acura. The ride is outstanding, smooth, and handles like a sports car. I was banking turns like a NASCAR driver. The 5's engine, in my humble opinion, is the most refined. It is sooooooo smooth. And, the badge says BMW. People see the BMW and they look with admiration. Driving a BMW puts me in a different mind set. I feel great. Its the same feeling a person gets when he puts on a fine suit, or has the pleasure to wear a finely crafted watch from Omega, Rolex, IWC, etc... Thus, it is one of the reasons I love BMW. When I am spending this kind of money, Yes, I want that feeling.
So, I love the E60 530 and 525 for all of those reasons. I know I may get flamed, and that is your right. I am only being honest about my feelings. So, please give me that fact. I am not trying to be arrogant either. I sincerely apologize if that is the way this post comes across to anyone. I DO NOT believe a car makes a person. A person's worth is determined by how he/she cares for others, how he/she tries to help others, and how he/she respects all people for whom they are, not what they possess.
For the record, I am in public education. I work with inner city kids and it breaks my heart to see what people in this Nation have to endure and go through. We have millions and millions of poverty stricken people. People that our Nation has forgotten. In addition, the REAL INSURGENCY is right here in our own backyard. There are called "street gangs". And, they prey on the innocent and hard working for little pay poor people; all good people trapped in a quagmire, not receiving the help they deserve. Okay, I am off my soapbox.
Back to the topic at hand. I think people are disingenuous when they try to criticize people for buying a certain car for the status appeal, or "badge" appeal. In reality, it is the badge appeal that every one of these companies is striving to achieve. Look at the ads from each respective company. Each respective company is selling an "image", and then they sell the car. BMW has the image, it is just needs to keep it refined. Infiniti and Acura are trying to achieve the image. Will they get there? I don't know, we will see. I did see a great add in GQ for an Acura TL, it was clearly marketed to image. The ad showed a SUAVE EXECUTIVE in his TL calling his office through the TL's Bluetooth Navigation System with voice command. The driver tells his office he is running late as he is driving over the Golden Gate Bridge. It was a really cool ad. I think that ad says it all. All the companies want the "Badge" Prestige appeal. The more prestige, the more the companies can charge, it is a harsh reality. Lets face it, these are Luxury Car Divisions, no different than luxury watches, or luxury houses. All the aforementioned sell prestige. Now, if I could only win the Lottery, so I can live in luxury
That square root theory sounds more like a "Dewey the Duck" theory versus Melvil Dewey's decimal system!
I dont know what insecure feeling you are talking about before visiting a BMW service dept. Without the assistance of mood alteration drugs I feel "inner peace" while visiting my BMW mechanic! My feelings are confirmed by CR! The 3 and 5 series overall hardly ever generate CR black circles!
In Canada the Acura RL is priced about the same as a BMW550! The RL as a grown up version of a 28k Accord is a bit too grown up for me. I would pick a BMW550 any day over a RL.
Don't believe CR's voodoo reliability statistics. They seemed divorced from reality. My BMW service dept. serves Famous Amos chocolate chip cookies, several kinds of fresh coffee, delicious hot chocolate, all the bottled water you can haul out of there, etc;
If this be insecurity, give me excess of it!
The handling of the M IS a couple of notches below the 5 series.
The handling of the 5 series IS the best in its class.
One point: If I am shopping for an RL, I don't care if it does have the best navigation system. If I don't want it, why should it be forced down my throat anyway?
I have never driven the RL nor do I intend to, so long as Acura insists on loading its vehicles to the hilt with stuff I don't need. I will not pay "one price fits all."
I thought a collective 8.5 was rather low for the 5 series, but just about right for that gas guzzling, ugly behemoth.
The correct collective consumer rating for the 2006 5 series should be 9.2.
The Audi A6 is based on a FWD platform. On dry roads it is a 50/50 split and go up to 70/30 in either direction in the snow.
My instinct tells me that this results in the better performance of the Infiniti but would give the Audi the edge when it snows.
Does anyone have any experience with the Infiniti in the snow? Or any comments on my "instinctive" analysis?
Also, what are the thoughts on the need for snow tires on an AWD vehicle?
I personally agree with you but for the buyer who wants those extras it's a bargain. I don't use navigation often...know this city well and it's easy to get around in it.
"Why should Bangle step aside?"
I was having a little fun...your awestruck thing about him is way over the top (even for the gullible ones) As far as I'm concerned, he's a local guy made good.
that's pretty accurate,,,I was just having some fun...because of your Lada/Trabant comment which by the way I disagree with, but won't go there again in this forum.
"Without the assistance of mood alteration drugs :sick: I feel "inner peace" while visiting my BMW mechanic!"
Now thats a statement I would not have expected from you...from hPowders maybe
Not all Acuras...I passed on the 2004 TL when it came out. But I think the 2005 RL is the best design of any Honda/Acura product to date.
I had been biased for Audis in particular and German cars in general for over twenty years. I had also felt that if America could build a car that even came close to the German car, I would be inclined to put it on my short list.
At the time, the STS seemed like a lot of car for the money -- until I tried to get one with all wheel drive and the price at MSRP in any case shot up to ~ $63K.
Now, too, I wanted a 6 cylinder as I believe we are heading down a path toward $4.00+ per gallon gasoline -- and if I could buy a German turbo diesel equipped car (such as an Audi A6 with the fantastic twin turbo diesel) I would.
The ability to acquire a fine German car with AWD at a price that seemed competitve with the Infiniti M35x was (in April 2005 time frame) a pipe dream.
Three test drives, one auto show and an Infiniti open house later, I plunked down a deposit for a silver Infiniti M35x with the auburn leather looking interior.
My primary concern about the Infiniti was the fact that it had but a 5 speed transmission. But I drove the car over a pretty challenging and diverse route and found the transmission to be no worse than the other guys "intelligent" autos.
The Infiniti M35x was approximately $200 per month less than the Audi I had configured -- but did not come with free maintenance (like the Audi.) Yet, I had reached a point where I felt the Audi, although in my mind superior to the Infiniti, was not a good value. The Infiniti, for ONE reason, did offer a slight advantage (other than price) over the Audi -- and that is it is somewhat better balanced. The Audi has its engine wayyyy out front.
Now, the Audi is a marvel of German engineering in that it handles much better than any car so nose heavy has a right to.
In the real world, this difference is probably rarely an issue -- but it is worth noting.
The quattro AWD system is based on a US technology called torsen for Torque Sensing. As I recall there are three flavors of torsen (versions 1,2 and 3.) Version 3 is the 40% 60% (Front Rear) nominal torque split and is currently only on one or two production Audis (NOT the A6 for '05 and '06 however.) The current A6 uses torsen type 2 which is nominally a 50% 50% split of power but it is instantly able to shift power where it needs it since it is a mechanical system.
There are no delays, no interpretations of sensory data required to effect the power shift. It, in almost every way, is the best AWD available -- but it is a very heavy system.
The weight of quattro provides both positives and negatives, but, frankly, weight is never, all by itself, desirable.
RWD biased AWD gets lots of publicity as if it is the holy grail -- and in many ways there is merit to this argument.
But, in the context of quite a number of AWD cars that have been based on FWD platforms, Audis 50 50 system is, at the very worst, among the best if not the absolute best (in cars with other than some very exotic and expensive names.)
If, for example, you look at the Volvo AWD V60 type R (?) it is 95% FWD and 5% RWD under normal circumstances -- yet it can quickly, if not quite instantaneously, shift power to where it is needed.
SH-AWD, too, is a great concept in a very nice car (the RL), but the RL is more of a front wheel drive car as it is currently engineered than the Audi quattro.
The Infitini is an RWD car that can put power to the front wheels when needed -- its RWD biased AWD is, if for no other reason able to claim it is more RWD like than some of its competitors.
Frankly, I can't tell the difference in these systems in daily use -- AWD trumps FWD and RWD in my experience. But I don't race, I virtually never (deliberately) go off road but I live in the most southern part of Ohio which does have mostly moderate winters.
AWD is important for that reason too.
AWD's greatest impact is in the overall stability and performance of the car under all driving conditions, not just winter however.
In the case of the Infiniti vs the the Audi, either one is certainly likely to be infinitely more competent and capable than their RWD or FWD counterparts regardless of manufacturer.
The Infiniti will probably have poorer gas mileage than the Audi (a couple of MPG's) -- it will also have a bit more urgency than the Audi.
The interior of the Audi is a bit more upscale, but this is more a matter of preference and opinion than hard fact based on empirical data.
If you are looking for history with AWD, Audi wins. If you are looking for a true RWD biased vehicle, the Audi cannot currently make that claim.
If the cars are priced the same, the Audi has a certain solid feel that the Infiniti comes close to matching, but does not quite equal.
The Infiniti seems to handle a bit more like a BMW, and this is a good thing -- but, I attribute this more to the F/R weight balance of the Infiniti than to some "secret sauce" of engineering.
So, how does this directly answer your question(s)?
It probably doesn't -- it didn't make a hill of beans difference to me. The cars, beyond the cosmetic will be bought largely for subjective reasons anyhow.
Both vehicles will be great under all kinds of traction conditions. Pick the one you like for other reasons, that is.
AWD vehicles with All Season tires are better than AWD vehicles with summer only tires in snow, likewise, FWD vehicles are better than RWD vehicles in moderate snow when both are equipped with all season tires (or summer tires for that matter.)
All season tires are able to withstand cold weather better than summer tires -- sometimes, sometimes, they have tread designs that give them the edge in snow, too -- but all season tires are not winter or "snow tires," no matter how good they are generally.
An AWD vehicle so equipped with A/S tires in a part of the country that has cold and generally no more than moderate snowfall will pretty much eliminate the need for snow tires. Even when there is one (or two) heavy snow day(s), AWD + All Season tires will virtually never strand you.
Get the car you want of these two -- were it my money, I would make certain I ultimately had Ultra High Performance All Season rubber on 18" wheels.
My Audi has 245 x 40 x 18's and the high performance all seasons -- the thing is, therefore, under tired for the capabilities and confidence that I am convinced the suspension inspires.
You figure it out for yourself, is the message -- from my perspective, you can't go wrong with either car.
In my case when Audi dropped the price and I factored in the free maintenance, I got a car that I liked slightly better for less money.
Different values result in different choices - luckily we are in the position to make these choices! Had similar discussions with my old motorcycle buddies about buying Japanese, German and Harleys.... oops got a bit off topic.
Just choose your color and drive it away.
be nice!
Last week I found myself in JAX & picked an Impala from what National (our corporate "choice") had on offer.
The thing had good power, full-up trip computer (it got 30+ mpg on the road), and an overall nice feel & interior. Combined with the G6 I was issued in June, I'm inclined to think GM may be making significant progress. Perhaps too little, too late.
Either way, I enjoy renting a variety of cars, both to compare them to mine & to evaluate the general state of the situation.
Cars in general appear to me to be getting lots better.
Liked the Ford Focus.
Would like to try a Mazda3. It's supposed to be roomy with a nice interior, comfortable seats and excellent handling.
I'll ask for it next time I travel.
I'm still no Bangle fan. The changes to the '06 7 have helped. I've grown accustomed to the current 5 but still think it looks like three different designers were involved without actually collaborating. Mostly, it's the Bangle-butt. It just looks tacked-on, kit car-ish. The 3 series is the best of the lot for me as they toned down the Bangle design. I think the 6 is ruined by the Bangle trunk.
YMMV.
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Interesting comment and observation...about the RL. I really liked my 2000 TL a lot. The 2004 came along and we balked. I think you really Hit on it! The new RL is like the previous TL...a handsome but generic design. A very handsome car indeed. Thanks.
Chris Bangle.
For he shall reign forever and ever....
Hallelujah!
Cod Liver.
The GM of oils.
Ba Ba Bangle...
The owner of the store is a car zealot -- a frequent visitor and instructor in Munich. His dealership was either second or third to become essentially ISO 9000 certified (in the US.)
Customer orientation, BMW orientation, Sunday open houses where the service department provides tours of the operating room clean and pristine facilities seem to be the norm.
Now, in fairness, this BMW store is owned by "Tom" -- who for years was the white lab coat wearing service manager. This place is of, by and for enthusiasts.
There may be sheep there, they may be employees or customers -- they hide it well.
My Audi dealer until a few years ago was owned by Gene -- he sold to the billionaire boys club here in River City. They are excellent business people and from all I can tell, really great people -- they hide their love of cars well, though. But, heck, they sell almost every kind of car made -- maybe they don't want to play favorites in case I decide I want a Cadillac, a Toyota, Acura, Porsche or Hummer for pity's sake.
You may have been completely tongue in cheek, and if so, I missed it. But, the mystery pertaining to these cars is, sometimes, the almost religious fervor with which folks defend their favorites. And, in full disclosure, I represent that remark.
But, in our fair town, the most passionate dealerships can be counted on the fingers (not including the thumbs) of one hand. One BMW dealership (of the two) one Audi dealership (of the two), one Saab dealership (dedicated to one brand) and perhaps one (the only one) Infiniti dealership seem to be at the very least "into the cars they sell."
An honorable mention goes to one of the Mercedes and Volvo dealerships as well for at least a convincing impersonation of brand passion.
I hate to be corny, but on any given weekday, there are folks at the "quattro cafe" who seem, too, to be into their Audis. Of course, I have long suspected they are paid actors, there to suck the unsuspecting in.
Cod Liver.
The GM of oils."
Yep...but with Mobil 1 you would be missing out on the Omega-3 with DHA and EPA which most Americans dangerously lack.
Bingle Bangle Bungle Away in an E60...whew>>>
Zip Zip Zippidy do da!
witty ditty.