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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    The funny thing about online message boards and forums is that they specifically attract those people that have had problems. They are hardly representative of all owners. They simply provide their own personal anecdotal "evidence" of problems with their cars.

    Unfortunately, there aren't enough happy people that actually post their feelings online. Most of those people are quite content to just drive and drive and not spend their time online looking for places to complain.

    I guess my point is to take any online reviews (for anything: cars, games, TVs, shoes, etc) with a grain of salt. Realize that many of the people reviewing are often times only inspired to write because they had a negative experience.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Dont give up on a car because of a couple of angry owners on a car forum. 90 people gave the M35 an average score of 9.3 out of 10 in the consumer review section. Additionally, in JD power IQ scores, Acura was thoroughly beaten by Infiniti in both 2004 and 2005.

    The M35 scored just as well as the Lexus GS300 in CR's '05 scores. The '05 RL scores were not even close. The RL is rated "fair" in the electrical category, and "poor" in power equipment, meaning as much as 20% of '05 RL owners reported electrical problems in their surveys. The M and GS did perfectly across the board.

    If you are worried about European reliability, dont get an RL. Its scores were no better than those of the BMW 5 and Audi A6.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Question: Which is more reliable a Infiniti M or Acura RL?

    Answer: Inconclusive

    To make a reliability conclusion on two models that were just introduced in 05 seems a bit premature. A few years of future RL and M data will provide the answer you are seeking.

    I apologize if that is not the answer you seeked.
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    Based on the manufacturers' histories, I'd say both will be realiable vehicles. But if I had to make a gut reaction, I'd probably lean towards the Acura/Honda vs the Infiniti/Nissan.

    -Paul
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    That's my point exactly. I questioned why AWD makes sense for sedans on normal roads (not an offroad Outback, such as your vehicle) except in winter climates. It's just too much weight, friction, complication and added cost for no benefit that's apparent to me, Markcincinnati's insistence notwithstanding. I realize mark alludes to a multitude of articles claiming a performance advantage, but I want someone to explain to me how that happens.

    Seems to me that as different as racing is from everyday driving, it's still more like everyday than offroading is.
  • liferulesliferules Member Posts: 531
    What is the movie's name with the AMC cars in it?

    Wayne's World, Cobra (Sly Stallone), and that Oscar contender, Good Burger (it was called the burgermobile)!
  • ct1211ct1211 Member Posts: 56
    For what it is worth. I was driving a 2004 325i and was giving that car to the wife with the intention of going into a new 530i. After driving the car and then by accident an Infiniti M35X I was shocked!! Then M35 had more room a much richer interior all the handling and much more power than the new 5 series. I have had my M35 since May 05 and I have had 0 problems. As for the problem forums I seriously question if some of those people even own the cars. But to each his own. I never thought I would ever drive anything but a BMW but I feel out of love with the new stark interior and lack of power of the 5er.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Both of Acura's most recent introductions, the TL in '04 and RL in '05, were plagued with initial problems. Infiniti hasnt run into those kinds of IQ problems. The only recent Infiniti with any kind of major issues is the QX56, which is basically a rebadge of the Armada. Nissan isnt the greatest when it comes to build quality, but Infiniti ranks up there with the best.

    If it were me choosing between the RL or an M35x, my gut would point me towards the Infiniti, no question about it. Nissan has been working with ATTESA-ETS for more than 10 years. The RL, on the other hand, is SH-AWD's first time at bat. Its an extremely complex system, and Ive heard some reports of car disabling mechanical issues related to it.
  • liferulesliferules Member Posts: 531
    I have personally never heard of these plagues of issues with Acura. Nor have I seen anything on the RL or TL boards which I have been following closely for the last one and a half years. Other than the rare person who gets a lemon, they are doing well. I have seen no well documented reports about any mechanical problems with SH-AWD, just rare individuals with problems, just like on the Infiniti board.

    Acura, IMO, is one of the more reliable brands, along with Lexus. It is Infiniti that has had a mixed past, with only the newer cars (the G and M) being reliable in the early reviews...IMO
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Actually, the Q, I, J, and G20 were all very reliable cars. Acura, on the other hand, had five years of TLs and CLs that had transmission failures. (99-03 5-speed automatic). Its a documented issue, Acura had to recall them all. Infiniti never had that problem.

    This thread http://www.acuraworld.com/forums/showthread.php?s=66fdad34afddb83090931a72378748- - - a1&t=49577

    Is specifically about SH-AWD lockups\failures. I havent heard anything about that kind of thing on G35\M35xs.
  • ndisguysndisguys Member Posts: 5
    You're forgetting that the Infiniti M35 comes with standard voice recognition which with the touch of one finger on the steering wheel allows you to simply speak the temperature and HVAC changes you'd like to make.The dash controls are more for the passenger to play with. Voice recognition also changes radio stations,cellular phone system, 6 disc in-dash cd changer, Navigation(even as you drive)and DVD audio/video if so equipped.
  • nebraskaguynebraskaguy Member Posts: 341
    You're forgetting that the Infiniti M35 comes with standard voice recognition which with the touch of one finger on the steering wheel allows you to simply speak the temperature and HVAC changes you'd like to make.

    So does the RL, but the controls are still within easy reach and easy to see. Voice recognition will never replace the actual control buttons for many people and, thus, they should never be hard for the driver to reach.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Happy 300 pages, LPS crew. We're also very close to post number 6000
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Suppose that for the average LPS 5 out of every 100 will have some quality issue. The more reliable Brand A will only have 2 out of 100 while the less reliable Brand B will have 10 out of 100. So if you happen to own Brand B there's a 90% chance that you will have a car with no problems - so in all likelihood owners of Brand B will have no problems and not understand why their car is labeled with low quality status even though when compared to other LPS's it is the truth. In fact if you owned two Brand B cars there's still a 81% chance that you will not have problems with either - meaning a majority of buyers will be happy.

    Now a Brand A owner is not expecting any problems (after all look at it's quality ratings) but no car company is perfect so you happen to buy one of the bad two. Given your quality expectations, you are not happy and feel obligated to vent your frustration (as many times as possible!) on various internet forums making it appear that Brand A is actually less reliable than it is. And naturally every Brand B owner will quickly use your post to "prove" that Brand B actually has higher quality than Brand A when it really doesn't. Funny how over time the number of people complaining about their poor quality Brand B cars diminish - maybe they are more accepting of problems that Brand A owners??

    Of course the many quality "experts" on this board often dismiss the quality ratings derived and published by the nationally known firms. Never mind that these firms employ the best statistical analysis and mathematical minds in deriving their quality predictions. Us forum members know better. After all whose reputation carries more weight - forum experts or these (how do they say in business?) companies?
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    One must approach forum posters with a grain of salt. Many have brand-biases and other hidden agendas (just kidding?!). Just lurk for awhile and they should become abundantly clear. If you check out the brand-specific forums on other web sites (sorry Edmunds) it's..... well even worse.

    I appreciate posters who criticize and make suggestions about the brand they own while also praising the competing brands. How much valuable information can really be derived from those who always praise their brand and criticize the competition? Also appreciated are those who help others solve problems and provide useful factual information, i.e. money factors, production schedules, etc.

    And let's not forget that we forums members really are not representative of the majority of LPS owners. A good question to ask - why is the poster even posting in this forum? I post because..... oops, sorry I have to go prepare dinner.
  • liferulesliferules Member Posts: 531
    Yeah, I had read about that several months ago, where they were apparently shipping some of the RL's with low fluid levels and the dealerships weren't checking levels before delivery... not what I would consider a flaw with the RL or a reliability issue...
  • gohorns1gohorns1 Member Posts: 53
    Wow, only 15 posts to go to get to 6000 and now the whole concept of forums is questioned :cry:;)
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    I don't think the forums themselves are being questioned. Rather it is the age-old adage (paraphrase?), "Don't believe everything you read..."

    Unless, of course, it's in the Enquirer or Star!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The “volumes spoken” are probably more from a certain perspective than from anything else.

    The 321 vs. 69 posters in “Problems & Solutions” (P&S) may be due to the number of cars sold in a given period, or time available in the market. Acura’s LPS (example, “in the spirit” of numbers) may have sold 18,000 cars in 2005, Mercedes LPS perhaps sold 50,000, BMW’s even more. I would not be shocked to learn that in raw numbers there were more posters in P&S for the cars that outsold other cars by 300%.

    Moreover, with the Infiniti M cars, we have a model that at least 80% of the time has been called “pick of the LPS litter” – only once, in Automobile Magazine, did the M not reign supreme (the Audi A6 was awarded the king of the hill by AM.)

    From the “Car Guys” in the Cincinnati Enquirer, to the New York Times to USA Today, the Infiniti M was the car to fawn over. At least one article proclaimed the M’s were about to make Audi, BMW and Mercedes (to name a few) irrelevant. Even though the gushing seemed almost too much to soon, well, there it was over and over and over.

    “The Japanese BMW the Infiniti M is,” Master Yoda proclaimed.

    The bloggers have often been even more passionate about their new BMW beaters, if that is even possible.

    Juxtaposed with the persistent praise for the new M’s were articles suggesting (in glowing terms) that the new GS Lexus was a suitable substitute for or complement to Lunesta.

    To be sure the Lexus was proclaimed practically perfect in every way. It was obliquely called a competent performer and directly lauded for legendary reliability; but, the writer’s style did little to disguise “the opening of the writer’s mouth wide as an involuntary reaction to fatigue or boredom.”

    So what we might have here, speaking volumes, is the possibility that M buyers are either a little less, the same as or a little more passionate about their drives as are even rabid BMW aficionados. We might have, too, that GS buyers, while not exactly dispassionate about their chosen mode of transport are, er, the “strong and silent types?”

    Reading the posts from us "civilians" and reading the editorial content from the folks actually paid to write, it seems to me that BMW 5 and Infiniti M customers are more likely to be vociferous than those who chose the Lexus GS.

    We may have a confluence (or a coincidence) of factors that speaks volumes – volumes that support not the unreliability (or the causes of “many” – 320 vs. 69, e.g., P&S posts here on edumnds) of one over the other, but perhaps the passion and popularity of one vs. the other. Or perhaps those folks who expected the M to be the illegitimate child of BMW's 5 and Lexus' GS are more critical or more defensive that their pride and joys aren’t perfect.

    I took a long test drive yesterday of an M35X with a friend who is in the market. She had, the day before, tested the GS300 AWD and remarked, “This M is so responsive, so sporty – the GS300 is much more like what I am used to, a 2003 Cadillac DeVille.”

    I was born in 1951, she in 1945 – I am willing to bet she will get another Cadillac since she can get it for less than the GS300 and based on her “butt” they’re about the same.

    While I argued long and loud that the GS300 was also a performance luxury sedan, she said, “If I want a cushy sofa-like car with lots of amenities, both the GS and the Caddy will do the same job (and Caddy is a lot less money), if I want a performance oriented, peppy little car, I’d go with the Infiniti M.”

    Interesting that her perception of the M was that it was a “peppy little car” while the GS seemed closer to what she was used to, a big cushy FWD Cadillac.

    Speaks volumes? Not to me.

    :confuse:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Regardless, the issues experienced by owners are very real. ATTESA-ETS has been around long enough for all the bugs and kinks to have been worked out.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    And yet, I wouldn't let that scare ME away from the M35.

    I have had 3 BMW's since 1993 and was told by family to "Stay away. You'll be sorry!" and have had a rather placid relationship with the service department-oil changes and cookies.

    I would have taken the chance with the Infiniti, but the 545 drove better, and at 2.4% interest, became an offer I couldn't refuse.

    In addition, when you are a returning customer, you are treated a bit better, I found.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Nor I. Indeed I had put a deposit on an M35X when, like you, the deal and the loyalty treatment from Audi became the offer I couldn't refuse.

    Both our 2005 X3 and A6 have been "perfect."

    Of course the X3 needs wiper blades again.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Except for an annoying rattling sound coming from the vibration of the unoccupied front passenger seat, which believe it or not comes and goes, I have had no problems with my 545 since leasing it on August 1st, 2005.
    I drove it this morning. No rattle. The car has a mind of its own.

    Just don't ask me to change a radio station! ;)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I was reminded that even though I "don't mind" and mostly like MMI, that some things can be done easier.

    I was so reminded on my Friday test drive of a new Infiniti M35X with Journey and Technology packages -- the salesperson (who did NOT ride with us) was trying to show us how to use the voice commands and he yelled "TUNE 90.0 FM" over and over and over and the thing wouldn't obey (later I spoke in a normal loudness tone and everything worked fine) -- so he simply reached over to the tuning knob and cranked the radio to 90.0 MHz. Easy as cake, simple as pie.

    The MMI is mostly acceptable -- but the Infiniti seems to incorportate both the slick and the sublime.

    iDrive, so they say, is "the worst of the German lot" -- worse than Command and MMI? -- c'mon.

    You know, I heard about his device that they call, well, it is called a mouse and you just move it over a little pad and the cursor kinda just goes where your mouse goes.

    I doubt it will catch on, though.

    Touch screens and/or voice commands that WORK (and the Infiniti works fine if you don't yell at it) are THE WAY TO GO.

    I get all these JD Powers surveys about my car in terms of reliability and so forth, NEVER do I get surveys asking how I might suggest content changes or improvements to the car itself.

    Dear Audi,

    Buy an Acura RL and an Infiniti M and a BMW with iDrive.

    Play with the voice command systems, voice commands and joystick knobs. It should become evident which of these systems have the most features and which are the easier or easiest to use.

    Copy from the RL and M extensively. Use the BMW as an example of what NOT to do and "creatively swipe" the good stuff.

    Next.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    With IDrive, you make the settings once and then can forget about it.

    It CAN however, be annoying for people who travel a lot and must keep changing the radio station frequencies which can only be done through IDrive. Then the IDrive becomes cumbersome. All car manufacturers should leave their radios alone- just press the buttons!

    I'm kind of apprehensive about voice commands-will a cough or sneeze cause the car to do something unwarranted?
    What about singing in the car?
    How about if a passenger talks loudly?
    What if I my wife and I are arguing and as usual I admit defeat by saying "stop!"?
    I think I will wait for some solid anecdotal evidence before I try "voice command." ;)
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    Go with satellite radio and radio station changing becomes a LOT easier. :)

    Most voice command systems require pressing a button on the steering wheel to activate it. It will then say it is in Voice mode and ready for commands. Sneezing, singing (even badly), passengers etc will not affect it if not in use.

    If you are in voice mode and something happens, it will either ask you to repeat it, or go somewhere you don't want it to. If you stay STOP, QUIT, END, etc, it will cancel voice activation. This is with firsthand experience.

    -Paul
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    For the money involved with LPS and HELM cars, I find voice commands relatively primitive. In the M, there is no training mode (and I am simply projecting this to other makes). As everyone speaks a little (or a whole heckuva lot) differently, I am suprised that training is not incorporated into the system.

    There are plenty of voice-dictation systems out there. Given the limited number of commands necessary for controlling the accessories on a car, training would be far simpler than any of these dictation software packages.
    I am surprised that this is not a feature. When I say "Home"--whether it's "(ET) phone home" or "Destination home"--it has a tough time (frequently replacing "home" with "0" for dialing). There are a few other words it doesn't seem to do well with. A training mode would do away with these annoyances. (And while I know that many people have replaced "home" with "house", "phone house" just doesn't seem right thanks to Mr. Spielberg).

    I agree with Mark. A normal tone of voice works far better than shouting. These are sensitive beasts, after all.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The voice command does have some limitations. The Audi system does have a training mode, I assume they all did. And, you do not have to use the training mode, but I find it very handy especially for sat radio.

    I get free directory assistance with my in car phone.

    I press the talk button.

    I say "telephone."

    I say "dial number"

    She says "the number please"

    I say sneeze "411"

    She repeats "Hash four one one"

    Had I not sneezed it would simply be four one one repeated back to me and my response would be to say "dial."

    ======

    If I push the talk button and issue a command and a passenger in the car speaks 1/2 second after I give the command, there is a good chance that the the voice lady will say "Pardon?"

    Then I say "Play Van Morrison" "Track 4" and she obeys.

    If my passengers continue to speak, well the Audi voice lady usually just says "Cancel" and the voice activation is deactivated until I again press the voice button.

    The voice commands can be iffy, too, if you issue them with the windows down and some ambient sound leaks in.

    The systems today are remarkable in some senses in that you can literally just rattle off a 7 digit phone number or tune a radio station by tag or frequency. They also are cool in that my voice tags can be commanded by my wife and thus far, no issues.

    I say "Play W G U C" and the radio tunes to 90.0 MHz. Or I say "radio ninety point nine mega hairtz" (pronouced almost with a British accent, it seems to my midwestern ear) and the radio switches to 90.9 FM. My wife says "Play W G U C" and the voice system even though programmed by me responds the same for her voice as for mine.

    The Infiniti System has more commands, but the technology seems about as reliable which is to say 95+% of the time everything is recognized. Heck, I'd probably say 97.5% of the time no muss no fuss with the voice systems.

    I can't wait for 2008 when I bet they will be all that much better.

    My 2003 Audi with On*star had the system where you had to say each digit s-l-o-w-l-y and wait between digits for an echo from the Audi lady.

    Nowdays, just let 7 numbers at a time rip and the system works without pain.

    And I too have 25 stations programmed into my MMI voice system (which, oddly, is the limit for stations) and most of the time it is not an issue.

    I think the system should have 100 allowed though.

    Audi will, or ought to, catch up with the rest of the voice activated world soon.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    i don't know-life was so easy back in the old days when manuals were thin and you pushed buttons to change the radio station.

    When I drive 900 miles to Virginia this May, I'm not even going to bother with the hassle of adjusting the radio stations with IDrive. I'm bringing a ton of CD's with me.

    I'm kind of old-fashioned-I refuse to pay a monthly fee for radio.
    But then again, I said the same thing when cable TV first came out and I've had it for years.

    Disclaimer: I have posted here many times in favor of IDrive.
    I love that I can and have used it to customize the car my way.
    The only real weakness is the tedious procedure for re-adjusting radio frequencies when one drives out of town.
    I hope BMW reconsiders and removes radio adjustment from IDrive and goes back to simple buttons.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm not a fan of satellite radio either. I might be more interested, but it seems every week the RIAA as attaching one more "cant do that! cant do that!" disclaimer to abilities I'd want to have on a music service that I'm paying for. FM is free, and I can record all I want. (Not that I actually do).

    As for television, I have a dish. Cable's picture quality is lousy, and their pricing is rediculous. Where's my ala carte, FCC?

    I think built in hdd music systems in future cars will be wonderful, especially if they include support for lossless formats such as flac, though I'd be happy enough to have my entire collection of 320kbps encoded mp3s at my fingertips every time I get in the car.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    When I get my first HDTV soon, I do believe I will switch to satellite.
    Everytime I fly on the only decent airline out there in the USA, JetBlue, I am amazed at how clear the Direct TV feed is on such a small screen. Intoxicating!

    No doubt about it-with the sorry state of commercial FM radio today, I have and will be continuing to bypass my E60's radio in favor of my extensive CD collection. I won't be paying for satellite radio anytime soon.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Sat radio is bound to kill AM and FM unless they do something.

    I am on my third HDTV since 1999 and it, too, just keeps improving. HBO and Discovery in HD are amazing.

    I am watching SURFACE as I type this from my HDTV Tivo in 1080i with full AC3 surround sound.

    The content from Sirius is wonderful, the fidelity, decent and with the BOSE system, the surround sound is addicting.

    I even listen to AM rebroadcasts in Sirius due to the sound quality.

    XM, too, I understand is an epiphany.

    Directv or cable isn't free either.

    There is room for all this content.

    No commercials are cool too.
  • nebraskaguynebraskaguy Member Posts: 341
    XM, too, I understand is an epiphany.

    XM is wonderful. The main thing I like about it is I'm not limited to my CD collection (and I don't have to cart around a case of CDs) and I'm always discovering new artists I've never heard of.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I am usually the last kid on my block to buy into whatever the latest technological innovation is-in this case HDTV.
    Next issue of CR, which should be out in a few days, should have some new reviews of the latest sets.

    Speaking of commercials-so many on cable.
    Attempted to watch a movie on FX and gave up in disgust-7 minutes of commercials, 7 minutes of movie. To add insult to injury, the same commercials are shown over and over. Who devised this devilish form of torture? Is anyone running this station?

    The local news station here-a feature of Bright House Networks which brags that you can't get on satellite-is a joke. Whenever I tune in, all I get is commercials.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Actually, Home Theater just reviewed six rear-projection 1080p HDTV sets this month. I wouldnt bother with CR for electronics, they don't know much more than the average Best Buy salesman.

    The current leaders in digital rear-pros are Toshiba with DLP, and Sony with SXRD (they took 2nd and 1st place in the HT round up). HT mag gave a slight edge to the Sony, but the Toshibas come in around a grand cheaper. (Typical Sony inflated pricing).

    As for plasmas, Panasonic and Pioneer are still the best. Flat panel LCDs continue to get better and cheaper, but unless you desperately need a hang on the wall set that can double as a computer monitor, Plasma still looks better and costs less.

    The analog cut off date appears to have been pushed backwards again, probably until 2009, so there's still no rush just yet.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Ouch!
    So Home Theater magazine seems to be what I should be looking at.
    Yes, I know Panasonic has been getting raves for plasma and Sony XBR for LCD.

    Thanks for the info Lexusguy!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    HD Tivo cures lots of the commercial issues. The best DLP's at the best prices are the latest and greatest non-1080p sets. Today there is no 1080p content -- if you go 1080p, however, there will, eventually be such content, but today you will pay more.

    Bigger is better, generally. Start at 60" -- if you've the space.

    ===== Back to the subject:

    Why do these LPS cars with their screens mid dash, truncate the info from Sat Radio? There is plenty of room left to display all the info apparently. Is this a manufacturer's call or the broadcaster's call?
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I think it's a broadcast thing. Notice that RDS info on "free" radio scrolls, but satellite info is truncated. Why not scroll the satellite info?
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    Have you considered Phatnoise?

    http://www.phatnoise.com/

    :)

    -Paul
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    It will scroll. Well, it does on my Alpine head unit in my Jeep.

    -Paul
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Your satellite radio song/artist info scrolls? Is that a factory unit or aftermarket?
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    Aftermarket. :) My Jeep came with am/fm radio. No cd and only 2 speakers. I've fixed that. hehe

    I believe those vehicles with displays like iDrive will show the entire song and artist w/o having to scroll. That's what my friend with the new BMW tells me. Markincincinnati has satellite radio in his Audi, so maybe he can chime in on how MMI handles it.

    -Paul
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    MMI (Sirius) Truncates the text. Wife's 2005 BMW X3 with Nav system and 16x9 screen also truncates.
    Screen has plenty of room, makes little sense to me.
  • vchiuvchiu Member Posts: 564
    > 1) No manual transmission... Damn shame that.

    well , Alpina want to position it with comfort in mind. the auto box is coming from ZF, so it should be a pretty decent unit. the available torque should solve many issues anyway.

    My choice car would be a 7 series with the same engine, the B7. more tests reports on www.alpina.de

    My choice car would not have all the Alpina spoiler and gimmicks. i would look like a stock BMW.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "well , Alpina want to position it with comfort in mind."

    Well, in my mind at least, there's nothing so comfortable as well engineered slick shifting manual transmission with an honest to goodness clutch pedal. ;-)

    "the auto box is coming from ZF, so it should be a pretty decent unit. the available torque should solve many issues anyway."

    It could be the finest automatic transmission in the worls (ala. Audi DSG) and I still wouldn't want it. IMHO, no luxury perfomance car should be offered without at least a manual gearbox option. Apparently BMW agrees as they've reversed themselves on the new M5 and are now going to offer a version with three pedals.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I think the true manual option is only for the States.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Shipo, couldn't agree with you more. Even the S4's over at the Audi dealer are just as likely to come with 6M and 6A anymore. :cry:

    Even worse at the BMW dealer where only ordered cars come with the stick shifts. Once in a blue moon it is possible to find one that a customer ordered and passed on -- there was, as I recall ONE 525xi so equipped.

    Back in the day the Audi dealer would order one or two stick shifts totally stripped "as if" someone would want the stick but no premium or sound packages.

    Speaking only for myself, Shipo, I am a dinosaur. The DSG or SMG may be super sweet; ditto the Mercedes 7 speed auto -- but the "p" stands for something doesn't it?

    If the upcoming B8 Audi A4 actually comes with a manual option (as does the current BMW 330xi) I may be in my last Luxury "performance" Sedan.

    My wife is now worried the next gen X3 will only come without a clutch.

    I keep hoping this "ain't so."

    I do wonder, however, if this is market driven. If the main purpose of offering the 3's and 5's with stick shifts is to say "we offer stick shifts" well, what are we going to do?

    I believe it would be darn near impossible to go to the BMW store and find a 530i or xi with a stick to test drive.

    If you find one here in Cincinnati, I would assume the dealer cap cost reduction would be huge just to get rid of it (at least based on what they tell me, which seems "eeewwww who would want a stick shift.")

    Crying, screaming voices in the wilderness, Shipo: you and me. :confuse:

    Truth be told, I am not confused -- the market, apparently has spoken.

    As Firesign Theater once said, "I said live it or live with it!"
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "I think the true manual option is only for the States."

    For the moment at least, I believe that you are correct. I must then ask the question, "Why is BMW providing a manual gearbox for the North American market only?" Of course given the rhetorical nature of the question I'll now provide y'all with an answer: DEMAND!

    My bet is that other countries will follow suit. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Well, I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. I do believe (maybe naively so) that there is something that we can do. Over on the 3-Series and 5-Series boards a few of us three pedal stalwarts have convinced a fair number of folks to opt for a manual gearbox over a Steptronic or SMG. If we can just keep getting the word out about the pleasures of having a heightened level of involvement with the driving experience, I think (hope?) more folks will opt to stir their own. It's kind of like a pyramid scheme, sell a few, have them sell a few, and have those sell a few more...

    Regarding BMW dealers and sticks, the dealership that I ordered my 328i through told me that over 50% of the 3-Series cars they sell are manuals, and over 20% of the 5-Series cars are so equipped. Of course this was seven years ago and so maybe the numbers have changed somewhat, however, more recently the dealership where I ordered my 530i through told me a different story. When I turned said 530i in at lease end, my now local dealership (I've moved to a different state) couldn't wait to get their hands on my 530i 5-Speed, SP, PP, Xenon, Premium Audio car and CPO it for their lot. Why? "Because," according to them, "it will command a higher price than a like equipped car with an automatic." Sure enough, they were correct, they sold my three year old car for only $7,000 less than my ED price!

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "If we can just keep getting the word out about the pleasures of having a heightened level of involvement with the driving experience, I think (hope?) more folks will opt to stir their own. It's kind of like a pyramid scheme, sell a few, have them sell a few, and have those sell a few more..."

    Sorry, but I think that's wishful thinking. I've taken out a Maserati Coupe Cambiocorsa for a test drive every year its been on the market. The first year, the SMG was pretty crude, and they told me most people bought the stick. Now, the SMG is very slick, even in full-auto mode. Just about all of the jerkiness from those year one cars is gone. The Cambiocorsa option is also a lot more popular now, so I'm told.
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