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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    The "rise of the machines" from an automotive perspective is underway -- and that rise is a rapid shift to AWD starting, in many cases, with the LPS machines.

    Wouldn't you agree that the "shift to AWD" owes at least as much to the low cost of today's AWD systems as it does to whatever intrinsic goodness this drivetrain configuration has?

    In 1988, BMW introduced an AWD variant of the E-30 3-series: the 325ix (not xi). As I recall, the ix cost fully $5K more than a base 325i, which amounted to a 20% premium. Perhaps because of this, the ix's sales were underwhelming & BMW did not bother to develop an AWD version of the E-36.

    Flash forward to 2001, when BMW introduces the xi versions of the E-46. Now, the additional cost has been reduced to $1750, which, for a 330, represents a premium of only 5%. To no one's surprise, the xi's are best sellers from day one.

    When AWD adds no more to the cost of a car than a stereo upgrade or factory-installed nav, it will soon become the default layout. Dealers order more for their inventory & buyers soon find it easier to say "yes" to AWD than "no".

    My fear is that at some point, manufacturers will decide to drop RWD for all but the high-performance versions of their LPS offerings. RWD will be available only to the well-heeled enthusiast who can afford an M5 or an E55, while the merely affluent masses will make do with AWD.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "My fear is that at some point, manufacturers will decide to drop RWD for all but the high-performance versions of their LPS offerings. RWD will be available only to the well-heeled enthusiast who can afford an M5 or an E55, while the merely affluent masses will make do with AWD."

    Would "making do with AWD" really be so bad? I suspect that probably around 80-85% of the US auto buying public are not car enthusiasts, and thus wouldnt miss RWD one bit. For us 15-20%, how often would we really get to use what RWD can do that AWD cant? Also, with proper balance, even AWD cars can go into tail-out power oversteer. The 911 Turbo and Ghallardo are both AWD, and I dont think owners are complaining.

    I think the perfect AWD system is what ATTESA (and I think X-drive does this too) where they can shift fully 100% of torque to the rear wheels, and power the fronts when needed. If you take away the nose-heavy front end plow typically associated with traditional AWD, then whats the prob?
  • dave330idave330i Member Posts: 893
    "If you take away the nose-heavy front end plow typically associated with traditional AWD, then whats the prob?"

    Weight. AWD system will add 200-250lbs to the car. Also the suspension on AWD cars tend to be ~1 in higher than RWD with factory sport suspension.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The G35x adds just 180lbs to the standard G, which is no more than the average passenger. 0-60 is probably around .2 of a second slower, and the AWD option is $1800, when comparing base MSRPs. Considering that the G35x adds the ability to drive in winter, I think its a fair trade. Is your average driver really going to notice a 1in. difference, even if they would've gotten the RWD sport version?
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Would "making do with AWD" really be so bad?

    No, it wouldn't be the end of the world. Somehow I'd find the inner strength to soldier on.

    But I do subscribe to the notion that AWD adds weight & complexity, thereby diminishing the "tossability" of an otherwise well-balanced sedan. If one doesn't need AWD, why should one put up with that? I have a 4WD SUV that gets me to & from work (actually to & from the train station - my real workday ride is a Long Island Rail Road M7) & that I use for weekend driving when the weather is bad. Thus, I don't need an AWD car - LPS or otherwise. I have all of the bad-weather mobility I need, & I don't believe that AWD enhances one's driving experience during the warmer months of the year.

    When I bought my weekend car - an '01 BMW 330i with sports package & stick - I test drove the 330xi. It's a fine car, but it felt heavier & was noticeably less nimble. (Back then, the xi's sport package was largely cosmetic & did not include hig-performance tires or firmer suspension. That may still be true.) I'd give up some agility if I needed AWD, but I don't, so why should I?
  • dave330idave330i Member Posts: 893
    "Considering that the G35x adds the ability to drive in winter, I think its a fair trade. Is your average driver really going to notice a 1in. difference, even if they would've gotten the RWD sport version?"

    If driven back to back, people should notice a difference between AWD & RWD version of the car. Especially a performance sedan.

    A RWD car isn't helpless during winter if you put snow tires on. If the snow is heavy enough, even the AWD version won't have the ground clearance to move.

    How many bad weather days are there in a year? Let's assume 60 days (high for most of US). That means during those 60 days, AWD will have a performance edge over RWD. That leaves rest of the year (305 days) where RWD will have a performance edge (more fun) over AWD.

    I'll take swapping to snow tires and carrying some chain vs. AWD.
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Member Posts: 200
    This exact discussion went on last fall in the Entry-Level Luxury Performance version of this forum :D Look for postings in the 4th quarter of 2005. I come down firmly in the awd camp, and specifically chose the g35x over the BMW or Audi. The fact that ATTESA awd can be 100% RWD was just one of the reasons. The X drive in 2005 was never able to be 100% rwd. Driving the car this winter has proven to me that I made a great choice. The car is really quick, has the awd powering the fronts as well as the rears when I need it, and drives like a rwd sports sedan when I don't :P
  • dave330idave330i Member Posts: 893
    Could you tell the difference between G35 & G35x when you test drove?

    How many snow days did you have this past year?

    Grats on choosing to carry ~200 lbs of ballast all the time for those snow days.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    "The Acura RL's price point is in foreign territory for us," Mike McGrath, chairman of the Acura dealer council, said at the National Automobile Dealers Association convention here. "Maybe Acura doesn't have the brand image" to sell a vehicle at that price.

    link title

    I disagree with the above statement. An expensive RWD V8 Acura could compete any day with the cars from Lexus or Infiniti.

    So now there will be a new de-contented Acura RL that will sell for about 40k! I guess this proves that the Accord platform has its limits in the luxury area.
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Member Posts: 200
    Grats on choosing to carry ~200 lbs of ballast all the time for those snow days.

    Well thank you ;) I already knew that I wanted awd so I didn't need to test drive the 330i, the rwd g35 or the a4, although I have ridden or driven the Audi and the 330. On the roads that I drive I loved the small compromise that the g 35x offered vs the rwd version.

    In 12,000 miles both my wife and I are thrilled with the performance and handling of this car. It is great fun pulling away from rwd or fwd cars at slippery intersections. It is also nice to drive right up our steep driveway without having to get running starts.

    More food for thought: Snow tires don't handle very well compared to summer/all season tires on roads that aren't snow or ice covered. For 6 months of the year my Goodyear RSA all season grand touring tires provide better cornering grip than snow tires :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Oh well Tagman, it's the same as with computers and HDTV's.
    After you commit to one for the long term, you must agonize as the newer, better and usually (but not always) cheaper stuff parades in front of you over the ensuing months.
    I am committed to my 545 lease for another 29 months.
    I enjoy the power of the V8, but do notice the small but noticeable diminishment in refinement compared to the wonderful inline 6.
    That 330 turbo pretty much sounds like my next vehicle if it is all it is cracked up to be.
    I can't wait to test one when it hits the showroom.
    If I like it, I will just have to suffer in silence for a while. :(
  • nebraskaguynebraskaguy Member Posts: 341
    Traction is based on coefficient of static friction X weight X cosine of slope. Odds are you had the most weight over your drive wheels, so you made it up the hill.

    I agree and that's why I basically disagree with the original poster regarding FWD in snow and ice.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    2WD configurations will (I don't know when, of course) "soon" be relegated to the entry level cars and the ultra ultra expensive performance cars with more of a nod to nostalgia than performance.

    In terms of performance, although not so much TODAY in the LPS marketplace, AWD variants are often a manufacturer's highest performance cars already. Some are, of course, the ultra high cost versions of such nameplates as Lambo and Porsche, some are the pocket rockets from guys like Mitsu and Subaru and of course who could forget the the RS4, RS6 and arguably even the S8 and W12 Audis.

    In most mfgs pipelines there are high zoot ("zoot" meaning either performance, luxury, cost or all or some of the above) cars "a comin'" and virtually all of them (virtually but not literally) are AWD.

    Perhaps this is because the cost to produce them is lower -- but it would still seem unless AWD was "no charge" that folks wanting pure Performance (or Luxury and Performance in a Sedan aka LPS) would go with a 2WD platform over a 4WD platform, if that were the case. Instead folks increasingly are seriously considering cars with "more than 2 driven wheels" for both performance and luxury.

    Oh yea? Says who? :confuse:

    Recent data, both from the mfgs and such erudite sources as Wards, Car and Driver and Better Homes and Gardens, suggests that AWD is growing in popularity (as measured by, what else, demand :surprise: ) faster than even the pundits and mavens had predicted.

    I have some "performance" imbued [AWD/4WD] literature that I would be happy to email to "anyone" (well almost) who wants it -- you know my e-dress.

    My wife's last BMW magazine was "devoted" (well practically) to x-drive and BMW's commitment to AWD as their next technology to retain the Ultimate Driving Experience (which for the record just goes to underscore my contention that Audi squandered their prowess in this area by virtue of benign neglect of the subject in their Marketing Campaigns [what Marketing Campaigns?] [exactly!])

    Drive it like you live in LPS land! :shades:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    am committed to my 545 lease for another 29 months.
    If I like it, I will just have to suffer in silence for a while


    You make it sound almost like a 29 month prison term.

    Enjoy that fine piece of engineering of yours!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Aye! A couple of posts glorify BMW’s slighty less-shaky inline 6 and you’re having a meltdown? SNAP OUT OF IT!!! I’ll take an E39 M5 with V8 any day of the week over any BMW inline 6. Also think of your dreamboat 911 with boxer 6.

    Poor little non-inline engines ain’t good fuh nuttin’. Sheese!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Snow tires don't handle very well compared to summer/all season tires on roads that aren't snow or ice covered."

    Excellent point. My experience is that most snow tires are terrible at everything but snow covered roads. I've had some snow tires that were literally horrendous in rainy conditions, nearly spun my car. They are also limited in terms of top speed, and are generally noisy and do poorly on the highway. The Blizzaks are the best snow tires I've used, but I still am happy to get them off the car ASAP in the Spring.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "An expensive RWD V8 Acura could compete any day with the cars from Lexus or Infiniti."

    I dont know that it could. While the Q has never really worked for Infiniti, they've at least been trying since the beginning with a V8 powered, RWD sedan to compete with Lexus. They did a better job with the M than Lexus did with the GS. More importantly though, the GS and M represent luxury and sport, leaving Acura in the akward middle spot, similar to Audi when compared to Benz and BMW.

    Acura's method since day one has been FWD cars that offer luxury approaching a Lexus, but for significantly less cash. The old RL was supposed to compete with the LS400. The new one competes with the M and GS, and is not all that much cheaper. If you take away value from Acura, what's left?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Oh well Tagman, it's the same as with computers and HDTV's.
    After you commit to one for the long term, you must agonize as the newer, better and usually (but not always) cheaper stuff parades in front of you over the ensuing months.


    That 330 turbo pretty much sounds like my next vehicle if it is all it is cracked up to be.
    I can't wait to test one when it hits the showroom.
    If I like it, I will just have to suffer in silence for a while.


    Suffer? It wasn't that many days ago that you had explained to me how happy and content you are with your 5 !
    I knew you would appreciate that I showed you the new upcoming biturbo inline 6, but I think you are losing sight of what you still have for the next 29 months.

    Snap out of it, dude! ;)

    Keep enjoying that terrific 5.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Wow you actually have to drive 3 hours to see snow during winter. What a wonderful escape

    It's not only a heavenly escape, but it's a great experience to return back from huge snow to the warm climate or beaches within only a few hours drive. It's enough to spoil someone, but I count my blessings every day, as I imagine many others do as well, no matter where life takes them.
    :)
    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I don't want to leave you with the impression that I am unhappy with my 545.
    Of course, I'm happy with it!
    The point I am trying to make is that the inline 6 engine is smoother than my V8 and I do find that mildly disappointing.
    The power of the latter is of course quite intoxicating.
    Then when I found out from Tagman's post that BMW has a turbo 6 330i coming out soon with no power lag, I admit-I lost control of myself.
    But, I am better now.
    My insatiabilistic urges (regarding LPS') are back under control for the moment. :blush:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yeah. That 911 is a rather elusive goal.
    All I'm saying is that when power is taken out of the equation, the I6 is more refined than BMW's V8 in the 545.
    No meltdown. Just a little restlessness-could be the change of weather down here.
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    Hakkapolitas (sp?) are the best snow tire I've used. They don't make the one I wanted for my current car so I bought some Michelan PA2's. They are quieter than the stock all season Goodyears that came with the car and handle nearly as well as those RSA's (the snows are smaller, slightly). This is on an M35x. I've got a nasty long, steep driveway, and the all-wheel drive and snow tires means I've never been stuck at the bottom where others have. The thing I don't like about the Blizzaks is when not even 1/2 the tread is gone, you've worn off the special rubber compound and they get noisier. Prior to wearing that layer off, though, they probably are nearly as good as the Hakka's.
  • moxiemoxie Member Posts: 33
    Thanks for the link Dewey. As an added bonus, the link (under "Other Stories") contains spy pics and write-up on the E90 turbo coupe as well as an 330i - IS350 comparo.

    :D
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    When folks make claims that "All-Season tires handle better than snows" or some such, I find myself gritting my teeth. Why? Because not all winter tires are created equal. Blizzaks? Couldn't tell you, I've never owned them. Michelin Arctic-Alpins, Pilot-Alpins and X-Ice tires? Yup, I've driven them. All I can tell you is that either my butt dyno is very faulty or those things handle just as good (if not better in the case of the Pilot-Alpins) as any All-Season tire I've ever driven. Do they handle as well as Pilot-PS2s? Nope, but that ain't the point.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Grandaddy
    Please forgive me if I came off as harsh as well. Just a German car fan having fun at the expense of a Lexus fan :P
    Apologies
    Dan
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Member Posts: 265
    I had an '82 Accord hatchback that could go anywhere.. Of course I was coming from a '77 Cobra II with RWD and a V-8 upfront, so anything would have been an improvement..

    I hear ya! I had a 68 Mustang (289) followed by a 77 Celica hatchback, both with A/S. The Celica was far superior to the 'stang in snow (duh). BUT--I will never forget the time I had to negotiate the Celica up a long, steep hill in a driving sleet/snowstorm. It didn't happen, even with help (people pushing). In fact, I bailed and spent the next two hours or so pushing other cars up the hill until the plow came through and I could make it to the top.

    When I bought my 530 in December 04, I kept my 92 ES for two reasons: I have a 16 year old, and I wanted a weather car. The ES with A/S unequivocably beats the 5er with A/S. But this year I put snow tires on the bimmer. There hasn't been much snow so far, but the little I've had to drive in has shown me that if I am careful, I can get where I need to be. I admit that I feel more comfortable in the ES in weather, but I don't know whether that is a function of my lack of driving in snow (I generally stay home when the weather is bad), the fact that my last three cars were FWD and I'm just not used to RWD, FWD being the better option for snow, some of the above, or all of the above.

    FWIW, it makes more sense to have the engine over the drive wheels for best traction in snow. But that doesn't render RWD useless. The unmentioned variable here is driving style. You might think it's common sense, but common sense ain't all that common. Maybe that's why Shipo has more success in snow with RWD than some of the other posters. And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not implying lack of common sense--at least, not among the members of this forum. I'm saying that some drivers have a lighter touch on the gas pedal than others, which could account for the differences of opinion expressed here.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Thats not the impression I've gotten from them. I used to use Artic-Alpins, I found them noisy and the dry handling rather sloppy, much worse than any top ranked A\S tire.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "You might think it's common sense, but common sense ain't all that common. Maybe that's why Shipo has more success in snow with RWD than some of the other posters."

    Hmmm, are you saying that since I have good success in snow with a RWD car that I lack common sense? ;-)

    "And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not implying lack of common sense--at least, not among the members of this forum."

    Ahhh, got it. :shades:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    A couple of points here:

    1) I've yet to see ANY manufacturer use "top ranked A/S tires" as OEM equipment.
    2) The 225/55 R16 Arctic-Alpin tires that I had on my 530i were quiet and very capable (as in handling) in the dry as well as the wet and were easily a match for even the best OEM A/S tires I've ever driven.

    The above having been said, there are indeed a few high end or "top ranked A/S tires" that are quieter and/or perform better than the Arctic-Alpins on cold dry pavement, however, the trade off for me at least simply isn't worth it, I want winter tires in the winter and summer tires the rest of the year.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I do not know the tires used by the LPS crowd by chapter and verse. I have a broad observation however.

    LPS cars sold in the US generally speaking seem to come with or be offered with "name brand" Ultra high or Maximum performance (summer only) tires OR "name brand" all-season tires that are usually just "high performance."

    Having driven on High, Ultra-high and Maximum performance tires of summer season and "all season," I find the lack of adoption of UHP A/S tires (to my knowledge there are NO Max performance A/S tires) to be at the very least, odd and more likely I find this to be a huge oversight (for the US customer.)

    If you are not from the US and have come across this site, there may be some possibility that you don't know how most Americans behave with respect to their tires: ummm, well, we like to leave the same tires on year 'round even when we may live in areas that have a nominal temperature spread of, say 0- to 90+ (F.)

    When I visit Germany and tell the local folks that we do this, they seem somewhat perplexed as if to say "you wear shorts in the summer and long pants in the winter, yet you expect your car to wear the same shoes regardless?"

    What's up with that?

    Beats me.

    I have become lazy, perhaps, in my older age, but were I given the option sheet ability to check off an ultra-high performance A/S tire from a choice of two or three name brand tire providers, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

    Full disclosure -- look at the map -- we do have some snow here in SW Ohio, but rarely, if ever, is a snow event more than a few hour event and we have gotten so darn good at "pre-treating," plowing and "post-treating" our freeways, secondary and residential roads it would be a rare year to actually NEED winter tires (even without my fave drivetrain: AWD.)

    If I lived "north" -- even Cleveland, perhaps -- and I had to use winter tires, well I would probably use UHP summer tires and the highest performance Winter tires I could find during the appropriate seasons.

    Perhaps it is because of our locality/climate/etc that 95% of all the Audis sold locally have all season lower performance tires on them.

    My issue is NOT so much with the all season rubber although many here call them "ignorant" tires or "no-season" tires -- my issue is why we get UPH or Max Perf summer only rubber OR way off the scale lower performance rubber at the other end.

    The only other reason I can imagine is "life span."

    High performance tires of the A/S persuasion can exceed in terms of treadwear the lease term for some folks. A 36 month 36,000 mile lease with some HP A/S tires is a marriage. The UHP summer only tires generally offered may need replacing in less than half of that time/distance.

    Give the customer lower performance but long tire life and they will, ummm, er, gee "rebuy" the car brand since it clearly is easy on tires?

    My $53,286 MSRP Audi A6 is under-tired. The tires, however, have almost nil cash value when the car comes off the truck -- so, I feel somewhat "obligated" to drive my car at what I am certain is only 8/10th's simply because the tires are, shall we say, underwhelming.

    I wonder what would happen if they delivered the car with only 5 spark-plugs?

    Why do we cripple our LPS cars by under-tiring them is the general theme here folks? :confuse:
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    I won't pretend to be the expert that some of you in here are regarding FWD/RWD. However, back in about 1983/84, I was the first person in my neighborhood to own a FWD car. That winter we got an ice storm one evening. The street approaching my dead-end block was a two block long low-rise hill. I was the only person who was able to make it up the hill! I counted at least 20 abandoned cars along the street.

    Modern traction control has made RWD not as bad as perhaps they were 30 years ago...
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Modern traction control has made RWD not as bad as perhaps they were 30 years ago..."

    Hmmm, I would have said, "Modern traction control has made RWD cars better all around performers (in the snow and other slippery conditions) than FWD cars..."

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Hmmm, I would have said, "Modern traction control has made RWD cars better all around performers (in the snow and other slippery conditions) than FWD cars..."

    Sorry, my bad. :P You got my point... ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Why do we cripple our LPS cars by under-tiring them is the general theme here folks?

    Cripple?

    Do you mean crippled in winter, or year-round?

    Do you think that "compromised" is a more accurate description than "crippled", or do you really consider that the standard tires are just so deficient that they actually cripple the performance? Is the "crippling" the result of the manufacturer's standard tires or the fact that many folks do not change them in the winter?

    Also, just one more question . . . since the manufacturers can only realistically provide one set of tires mounted on a vehicle . . . what do you think those tires should be?
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    [trying this again]

    if you want a V8 powered AWD (LPS) sedan? There is, of course, the 300C AWD.

    Why aren't the other "luxury" marques in the V8 AWD game? Wonder how many of the 300C AWD sales are conquest sales? :confuse:
  • dave330idave330i Member Posts: 893
    "It is great fun pulling away from rwd or fwd cars at slippery intersections."

    So how often do you encounter slippery intersections? Maybe 100 days a year? I have great fun pulling away from awd cars during the remaining days when the intersections are dry. :D

    The logic of people advocating AWD for bad weather baffles me. It's like telling people to wear a rain coat all the time.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ... The logic of people advocating AWD for bad weather baffles me. It's like telling people to wear a rain coat all the time.

    I liken it to telling people it's okay to run on an uneven surface with a knife in their hand and the blade facing their body. :sick:

    Unsafe conditions are unsafe conditions. Doesn't matter how many wheels you've got driven.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I said and meant at the time crippled which, to me, seems to apply:

    "to deprive of capability for service or of strength, efficiency, or wholeness."

    I have on several different cars swapped tires within the first 30 days of ownership to find my car totally transformed.

    Tires (and tires+wheels) more than any other modification that is non-surgical, so to speak, make the single biggest impact on handling and stopping and indeed overall feel of a car. A $1,000 set of tires can be like an entire muscle and skeleton transplant the impact is so dramatic.

    My Audi A6 3.2 w/18" HP A/S 245 x 40 x 18" tires came "crippled" -- I wish Audi had offered a set of UHP all seasons even if there would have been a small upcharge.

    If, today, I were to replace my tires with a set of Pirelli PZero Nero M+S in the OEM size or a set of Falken Azenis ST115's (these latter tires are summer only however), my car would after about 150 miles feel to me as if it were (according to Pretty Woman) "on rails."
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I agree, AWD's major benefits are not for bad weather.

    I am not certain, however, why one would wear a raincoat all the time.

    Today's AWD (not part time 4WD, not full-time 4WD, but AWD which although a cousin to other types of four driven wheels is NOT the same animal nor does is even attempt to serve the same "master" so to speak) has become one of the "ought to have" and soon "must have" traits to be considered an LPS car where P does stand for Performance, not just Premium.

    AWD has become the highest performance drive line for the mfgrs and customers (of LPS cars and of many ultra high performance cars, to boot.)

    The raincoat analogy I guess is what I am not getting -- unless it would also be OK to suggest that we only need brakes on two wheels instead of four.

    ====

    I misspoke the other day: Audi's A6 4.2 and Cadillac's STS V8 AWD qualify as LPS members. Chrysler's 300C AWD probably is what? in the "near-LPS" class.

    It would seem that AWD and higher powered and "more bigger" engines will spread fairly quickly now unless we have another spike in gas prices that STICKS.
  • grandaddygrandaddy Member Posts: 66
    Hey Shipo, how's that kool aid taste? Just keep pushing that chain!!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    grandaddy - maybe shipo will say, "hmmm . . . I would have said just keep pulling that chain". ;)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Y'all are pretty funny. ;-)

    There was a time (before DSC and such) when I bought the FWD is better in the snow bit and as such, I drove FWD cars. Back in the early 1980s I drove exclusively Audis, and one cold winter day I was driving around in Boyne City, Michigan, headed toward an assignation in front of a nice warm fire.

    Unfortunately there was a fairly steep and snow covered hill between me and the object of my affections. I tried getting that poor FWD Audi up that hill no less than five times, each time backing further away from said hill and then attacking it with as much speed as I dared. Each attempt ended in failure, I never even got close to the top. Not to be deterred I reasoned that it would probably be better if I pushed the car up instead of trying to pull it up, and as such I turned around and backed my way up the hill. I easily made it on the first attempt. Weight transfer my friends is indeed a very real thing, and given the grade, there was just too much of my vehicle weight (even for that overly nose heavy FWD car) centered over the rear/non-driven wheels.

    BTW, the fire and the companionship were equally warm. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    Nothing generates determination in the human male like anticipated companionship.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Ah yes . . . a happy ending . . . and a valuable lesson to pass on to the next generation.
    Good work shipo.
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    The Pilot Alpin PA2 handles much better than the Arctic Alpin. The PA2 is also available in a V-rated version. It is quieter than the stock allseason Goodyears that came on the car.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "The Pilot Alpin PA2 handles much better than the Arctic Alpin."

    And Bridgestone Turanza LS & EL400s and Michelin Energy MXV4 Pluses and Goodyear Eagle RS-As and Continental ContiTouringContacts and... and... and... You get the idea, better than pretty much ANY OEM All-Season rubber that I've ever seen.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    An all season tire is the knife in a gun fight against the Pilot Alpin's -- All Season tires CAN offer Ultra High Performance tread patterns (suited less to snow performance than may be commonly thought.)

    All Season tires of High, Higher and Highest performance offer ONE key attribute over their summer only counterparts and that is an ability to play nice when it gets cold outside.

    All season tires OFTEN have tread designs that are "OK" for moderate snow (better than summer only UHP tires, generally.) But for most of us lazy 'mericans the overall purpose of All Seasons is to be great in NO SEASONS and fair to very good in all seasons based on what you go for.

    LPS OEM tires seem to be more and more to be fairly wide and low of profile and also often limited to simply High Performance capabilities.

    I know of no OEM application where it is possible to select a Pirelli PZero Nero M+S UHP all season set of shoes. Often the choices are limited to summer only Z rated tires or all season h rated tires -- the differences assuming these tires are put on cars with identical suspensions otherwise are quite "impressive."

    The OEM A/S H rated tires tend to hobble or cripple the car that when mounted with the OEM summer only Z rated UPH tires takes on an entirely new personality.

    Micky Mouse on the one hand, Mighty Mouse on the other.

    Or if you don't care for the mouse analogy, Clark Kent on the one hand and the guy in tights on the other.

    The marketing guys won out again.

    My main issue is that it ought to be easy to allow the customer to choose when the car is ordered. Instead, you take what they give you and live with it.

    Makes no sense to me -- I've seen the factory, the place is so computerized it ought to be a matter of punching in the code so that one could have the OEM A/S tires in either HP or UHP flavor -- perhaps as a no charge option or perhaps as a charge option -- hmmm how bout $200 for UPH all seasons over the lesser rubber?

    Now that would be "luxury" for LPS buyers, eh?
  • grandaddygrandaddy Member Posts: 66
    Well heck Shipo, why didn't you tell us that is the first place. NOW I understand. I admire, respect, and applaud your DETERMINATION!!!
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    Both of the Michelin Alpin tires are dedicated snows - you wouldn't want to run them once the weather got warm. The PA2 are V-rated, as were the all-season Goodyears that came on my car. As noted, the snows were quieter and have nearly the handling of the z-rated Goodyears.

    I agree that all-season tires are a compromise for all seasons. If you can afford it, switching tires and wheels with the seasons is good if you need it to get around. The PA2 aren't very much of a let-down from the all-seasons even though they are dedicated snows. Not sure what I'll put on when I decide to trash the GOodyears, but it will probably be a nice summer only tire.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I'm apparently one of the few Americans who is inclined to swap tires twice a year. My 530i SP came with OEM Michelin Pilot Primacys, which as a performance tire were, ummm, okay, but that's about it. Given that I now live in New Hampshire, a dedicated set of winter tires were in order (and were ordered within a couple of months of moving up here), and instead of opting for the Pilot Alpins which were tempting (the PA2s weren't out yet), I decided that given the amount of snow we were likely to get that the Arctic-Alpins would do just fine. It turned out to be a good decision.

    In the end, I ordered a set of winter tires that matched the size of the non-SP 530i All-Season tires, and while my performance did suffer somewhat compared to my summer setup, they performed quite admirably, especially given the more that 300" of snow that we got here during the three winters I had the car.

    For folks around these parts, once bitten by the winter tire bug, it becomes very hard to justify not having a set for every car. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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