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Comments
I initially overlooked something (that it seems you did, as well) regarding mpg and price.... The price of the upcoming 450H will be low-$60s with city/hwy mpg at 27/28, which is around $6k more than a fairly well-equipped GS430 -- the V8 -- with fuel economy of 18/25. The 450H will be around $15k more than the GS300 with mpg of 22/30.
So we're actually combining two models in our comparison to the GS450H....
You are probably right. With such low number, these cars might become collector's items :surprise:
At what price per gallon and how many miles per year and how many years will it take to make this GS450h work from an economic point of view, let alone a "green" point of view?
Although I do believe $3.00 gallon as a base price nationwide is hardly a long time in the future fantasy, what makes the "h" attractive battery-wise? Are the batteries "permanent?" Are the batteries NOT a land fill issue as I have been reading about?
Other than a stop gap measure and perhaps a performance improving technology (accelerative performance) what on earth would make one spend MORE for the "h" car based on what we know today and even what we think will happen over the next 4 years.
Consider this:
Date Jan 6, 2004, Source Wall Street Journal.
"In five years, the industry will have gone from 900 models with an average [useable] life cycle of eight years, to 1,500 models with an average life cycle of four years."
Article: Detroit's Challenge.
We are now 2 years into this -- 40% of the way there.
Wonder how this will pan out.
If the "cycle" or average life cycle drops to 4 years, how could these "h" cars ever hope to be anything more than an ecological statement, for they appear certainly to be neither an economic statement or a technology statement.
And, BMW is thinking about STEAM POWER!
I could just scream. Fuel Stratified Injection into a Turbo Diesel with lots of filters and stuff seems to be a heckuva lot more pragmatic.
The X-type may be a scaled down design look, but it is a P.O.S. and a failure for many reasons, and thank God Jaguar will end it soon. The X-type could NEVER be in the same league that the XJ is in. The XJ, in its latest generation, is actually (and FINALLY) a terrific car that is, unfortunately, forced to live past an old reputation. Let there never be any confusion. Night and Day.
Other than the design cues, the similarity is as real as this:
There's always the Camry which is a scaled down version of the Lexus LS.
Another ridiculous idea, don't you agree?
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The new 450h, believe it or not, has only 7.5 cubic feet of trunk space compared to the already inadequate 13 cubic feet of the GS430-that alone disqualifies this vehicle from serious consideration for me.
If I want a vehicle with a small trunk in this price range, the Porsche Boxster would be the car for me.
BTW, pricing has been announced, and it is $54,900. Zero to 60 is 5.2s, so it kills the GS430 in that regard, even though one is technically a V6 and the other a V8. Also, the GS430 may have a lower starting price, but the GS450h has a lot more standard features, such as:
Electronic Power Steering (EPS) with Variable Gear Ratio Steering (VGRS), electrically powered air conditioner, power moonroof and power rear sunshade, heated/ventilated front seats, rear side airbags, rain-sensing wipers, Intuitive Park Assist, rear back-up camera, 18-inch alloy wheels.
A fully loaded GS430 with Navi/ML is $59,000. A fully loaded GS450h with Navi/ML will be about $59,000 as well.
So, for about the same price, you get a faster AND a more fuel efficient car. (Of course, the trunk opening is still laughable and the trunk size is even smaller now with the battery.)
Even against other V8's in this class, the GS450h does great:
$59,000 fully loaded
0-60: 5.2s
EPA: 28/27
What V8 sedan in this class gives you this combination of class-leading acceleration and class-leading fuel efficiency at this price?
http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2006022863558
Answer: Various turbodiesels that are sold in Europe and will hopefully sell soon in North America.(BMW 535d and the Audi A6 TDI)
Nor do I mean to re-trigger a hybrid versus diesel dispute in this forum.
The car was driven using every possible technique to maximize economy. But it was a STOCK HUGE Mega-sized Lux car (that happens to be a spirited performer and also have a trunk large enough for a small family of 4 -- and a big trunk opening.)
It achieved 40+MPG.
Maybe I am crazy Miranda, but this was documented and broadcast.
It makes one wonder what would or could be if we had access to even the stock engines without hybrid assistance, etc in LPS sized cars -- 45MPG, more?
Almost a cake and eat it too scenario.
Moreover, we have KNOWN petrol reserves on US soil that would permit current use to continue without additional discoveries or additional technologies for 100 years.
No batteries, YET, can even come close for even remotely close money.
I often describe myself as the Lunatic Fringe or Screaming Voice in the Wilderness as it applies to my passion for manual transmissions and AWD LPS cars -- this however is enough to get me put away in a rubber room.
Sure, our diesel here in Vaspucciland isn't quite as PURE as the stuff they can swill over on the other side of the Atlantic -- but this is not even remotely close to a technological stretch.
The paucity of such vehicles here AND the lack of a public DEMAND for same must demonstrate the power of our media and marketing to obfuscate.
WOW!
And the heck of it is, this GS450h will probably "get away with it." At least if the "it" is in any way a suggestion that this is a green thing to do (green being both the color of money and the symbol for ecologically sound cars.)
I'm all for HP cars and I grant the review of the "h" from the accelerative urge point of view is impressive and attractive. Ever read a similar review of one of these high zoot TD's?
Cake and eat it too? :confuse:
Perhaps. :surprise:
The GS450h is faster, much more fuel efficient, and cheaper than most V8 LPS's. Dunno why a lot of posters would dismiss it so readily, useless trunk notwithstanding.
Why?
1)Real world 22mpg is not what I call fuel efficient? MB E320CDI is available in N. America and is far more fuel efficient .
2)The heaviness of a GS450H weighs down its handling dynamics
3)Added complexity adds to service costs in the future(and if you want to save money by going to an independent mechanic, good luck--especially if battery/hybrid issues arise)
4)Toyota hybrids are known to have software problems
5)If you live in a cold winter area of this continent, fuel mileage will suffer far more than a non-hybrid.
6)If you do mainly highway driving then a non-hybrid car may be just as fuel efficient
7)High price label
8) If you want to sincerely save gas with a GS450H then you will have to drive it like a timid centenarian great-great-great grand mother.
9) If you are into full-throttle driving then expect the GS450H to burn gas almost as much as a V8.
and last but not least
10)Awful trunk space
So again what is there to like about the GS450H, especially when compared to a MB E320 CDI?
1. No matter how great diesels are, there aren't enough gas stations nearby. When there are diesel stations, prepare to get stuck in line behind pickup and commercial trucks with huge gas tanks.
2. Lexus service and reliability which by comparison to the e class has been superior.
3. At least in L.A.-- a clearly green and liberal town, it's cool to drive a hybrid. Don't let the Hollywood liberals fool you, many los angelenos like myself are about image and not substance.
4. 0-60 at 5.2 is pretty good, at least .3 better than the new ls460.
C&D got 24 mpg for the E320 CDI.
2)The heaviness of a GS450H weighs down its handling dynamics.
The GS450h weighs about 150 lb. more than the E320 CDI. I'm not a fan of the over-boosted handling GS to begin with, so I'll give you that the GS450h isn't going to win any track awards.
3)Added complexity adds to service costs in the future(and if you want to save money by going to an independent mechanic, good luck--especially if battery/hybrid issues arise)
I'll take a Lexus GS450h over a MB E320 CDI any day of the week when taking wagers on overall future reliability.
4)Toyota hybrids are known to have software problems
See above.
5)If you live in a cold winter area of this continent, fuel mileage will suffer far more than a non-hybrid.
True. But it'll still be far better than all other V8's in this class.
6)If you do mainly highway driving then a non-hybrid car may be just as fuel efficient
The GS450h will still get far better highway mpg than all other V8's in this class.
7)High price label
The price of a similarly equipped GS450h is lower than any other car in its class, except the M45.
8) If you want to sincerely save gas with a GS450H then you will have to drive it like a timid centenarian great-great-great grand mother.
No, even if you drive it hard, you'll still get much better mileage than other V8's.
9) If you are into full-throttle driving then expect the GS450H to burn gas almost as much as a V8.
No, you'll burn as much as a V6, because you'll be driving mainly on the gas engine, which is a detuned version of the 3.5L GR V6 in the IS350.
10)Awful trunk space
No argument there.
So again what is there to like about the GS450H, especially when compared to a MB E320 CDI?
E320 CDI v. GS450h is a faulty comparison to begin with because the MB has the same acceleration as other V6's, while the GS450h has the same (actually better) acceleration as other V8's
C&D got 7.1s 0-60 for the E320 CDI. That seems kinda slow, and I think that the E320 CDI can achieve about 6.5s. Even so, that's comparable to other V6's in this class. Still WAY slower than the 5.2s of the GS450h.
The GS450h shouldn't be compared to V6 cars, because even though it technically has a V6, it's really in the same league as the other V8's.
The car was driven using every possible technique to maximize economy. But it was a STOCK HUGE Mega-sized Lux car (that happens to be a spirited performer and also have a trunk large enough for a small family of 4 -- and a big trunk opening.)
Mark, I would love to see this TD Audi available in Canada for comparison when I shop for my next LPS. I don't think you should lose your cool over the fact that no one is promoting td in North America because it WILL be here if it were the true competition for Lexus's hybrid.
Holy crap!!! Even a BMW Z4 has 8.5 cubic feet of trunk space!
Market perception, less so in the LPS class, is also an issue, but in this one aspect, there seems to be some growing momemtum (slowly growing) supportive of the notion of "CLEAN" diesel technology.
Audi, too, is attempting to win some races with diesel powered cars, certainly to draw attention to the performance capabilities that a contemporary diesel can bring to the table.
In the US there has been a stigma, slowly fading, about diesels.
I rented an E class Mercedes in Munich and drove it on the autobahn for a day -- so what? Hmmmm? It was a turbo diesel -- it was quiet, quick, and fast.
After driving it essentially full throttle (I was comfortably able to exceed 200kph and easily average 180) from Munich to Garmisch -- the fuel level still read full.
Three people and luggage in the car.
All three of us remarked -- "this would sell in the US, too bad it is in a Mercedes." Were it in a Bimmer or Audi, plus the Merc, the sales, we were convinced would happen.
Clean diesel + "high perormance" LPS diesel cars could change the market's perception.
Or, the price of hybrids could be slashed say, 10%+ and offer ONE free battery replacement, which would perhaps make them interesting.
Can the Z4 carries 2 or 3 people with some luggage in its trunk? :surprise:
I looked at more pics of the new GS and thought that they can do better with different tail lights.
1) Turbocharging in an old and well understood art, I personally have published scientific documents from the very early 1920 referencing "turbosuperchargers", and have seen inferences to earlier turbochargers going back to just after the turn of the last century.
2) Turbocharged engines (gas or diesel) are arguably more sensitive to the maintenance practices of the maintainers. Treat them well and they'll last just as long as a similarly well designed, built and maintained atmospheric engine. Take liberties with their maintenance schedule or scrimp on the quality of said maintenance and they won't last half as long without expensive repairs.
3) Metallurgy combined with relatively recent design techniques combined again with modern (fully synthetic) lubricants are simply making it much easier to maintain a blown engine to a level where it will last hundreds (yes, plural) of thousands of miles without any major repairs.
4) Then there is the whole diesel equation. A key factor in the lifespan of turbochargers is what's called the Turbo Inlet Temperature ([non-permissible content removed]). As a general rule, the exhaust manifold temperature and the [non-permissible content removed] for any given size and output of engine is about seven hundred degrees lower on a diesel, and as such, commercial truck have been running them for many hundreds of thousand miles between turbocharger repairs, and they've been doing that for decades.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Geez, you don't need to get all snippy.... I wasn't trying to compare the whole car to each other, let alone trying to compare a Lexus to a BMW. My point was that a little convertible roadster has more trunk room that a mid/full-sized sedan. It was just an example of trunk room in a sedan versus a roadster. It was a statement about the lack of space in the GS, rather than a vote of support for the Z4.
How can anybody buy an LPS with only 7.5 cubic feet of trunk space?
Obviously, none of the Sopranos!
The GS is cramped inside with mediocre handling, difficult to modulate brakes and gimmicky steering.
Now the barely adequate trunk with the ridiculously narrow opening has been reduced in size by 42%.
Anyone shopping for the GS 450h need not wonder why the salesperson will be discussing the car's virtues by sitting on the trunk.
I do think the time has come for Lexus to mercifully put the GS down for good.
I dont think the concept of the GS is inherently broken, but I agree that the execution of this one is definitely not Lexus' greatest triumph. Everything thats wrong with the GS is basically what's right with the Infiniti M. The next GS needs to be a lot more like that car.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Oh geez, one more set of facts that I'm going to have to remember regarding blown engines. I think my brain hurts. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Oliver: [non-permissible content removed] for tat.
Stanley: What?
Oliver: [non-permissible content removed] for tat.
[Stanley tips his hat]
Oliver: What's that for?
Stanley: I thought you said, "Tip me hat".
James Finleyson: Mary.... uh... Mary Christmas.
The C& D results seem to be the exception versus the norm. Almost every review I read gets about 15 percent better combined mileage (27 to 28mpg). That means a MB320D gets about 23 percent better mileage than the 22mpg mileage achieved by the GS450H.
Here are just two examples:
link title
link title
2)I'll take a Lexus GS450h over a MB E320 CDI any day of the week when taking wagers on overall future reliability.
That may be the case for non-diesel MBs. But Turbodiesel MBs are a different story.
Proof: Our 83 MB300 has been bulletproof and outlived all our family heirlooms except my Seiko from the 1960s. Also I have a family member in Europe who drives a more recent turbodiesel MB with mileage that should be put in the Guiness Book of World Records.
3)The price of a similarly equipped GS450h is lower than any other car in its class, except the M45
Thanks but I will take the M45 instead anyday.
4)The GS450h shouldn't be compared to V6 cars, because even though it technically has a V6, it's really in the same league as the other V8's.
Fair enough in that case I will take any V8 and burn a few extra MPGs with no guilt conscience whatsoever. IMO if I wanted to buy a Lexus then a LS460 looks compelling in comparison to a GS450H.
Woah, you cant use an '83 Benz as proof that the current cars are reliable. Benz certainly does not build cars like they did in 1983.
I am not talking about JD Power Quality results on the first 90 days of ownership. I am talking about quality results on the first few decades of ownership.
Now how can I disagree with that? :P
In fact many urbanites worldwide fit the above description(including Torontorians). Hollywood is not the sole inventor of "image without substance"
I have no interest in the hybrid scam - and that's what I feel it is, a scam.
Your admitted lack of knowledge on the subject is actually fairly typical. Most folks really don't understand it.
Yes, there were fears at first, but now it is known that you will not get electrocuted. And the extra weight you speak of is much less significant than your passengers, and do you not allow passengers in your car because you think they will screw up the handling and braking?
While understandable, your remarks are knee-jerk over-reactions based upon fear and a lack of information.
I guess Toyota and Honda and others are going to pull a fast one on the whole world . . . and get away with it.
Chill out and enjoy some of the technological advancements and benefits of modern times.
TagMan
Light and powerful lithium ion batteries and cheaper mass produced hybrid technology will make hybrids economically sensible in the future. But we will have to wait until that day arrives.
Oh yes this is a LPS forum, what sense is there to talk about rational justifications when every single LPS bought is not a rationally justifiable purchase? Let's face it the only justification for driving a LPS is strictly emotional and not at all rational. So based on that logic maybe a GS450H does make sense.
My own irrational preferences for a LPS are not at all ruled by green considerations(if that was the case I would give up any idea of luxury and performance and just buy the upcoming low priced hybrid Honda Fit--that would be the most rational thing to do)
How many of us drive two, three, four, or more vehicles? MANY of us do, particularly those on this forum and the HELMs forum. So why not park a HELM or LPS, a truck, a hybrid, and an SUV in the same garage? Maybe throw in a sports car, while you're at it. Wouldn't that be a nice variety to choose from that would meet most of our needs and whims as well?
You know I totally love the idea!
TagMan
Still waiting to see however, if the price premium paid, can return to me the savings in gasoline cost within 200,000 miles. That's why I think it's a feel-good scam...at least at this point.
I'd take an M45 over the GS450h as well, but I'd take a GS450h over a GS430. That's why the GS450h is a significant vehicle. It's the first hybrid that is the same price as its non-hybrid counterpart, yet is faster and of course more fuel efficient.
There's a really interesting forum called "hybrids in the news" that I visit and post to sometimes, because I actually like the hybrid technology. No, I don't think it is the perfect solution, but I do think it is at least a step in the right direction, and we've been through a lot of years without any major progress, so I love the idea of improving and changing technologies. At least it's progress instead of S.O.S., if you know what I mean. Don't be surprised that there are many folks that share your views on that forum, and it is an appropriate place to discuss the hybrid topic.
TagMan
I would be all in favor of this, or I think I would be, if there weren't alternatives that don't have battery weight and replacement costs to contend with.
Maybe I should pull my head out of the sand though -- maybe this is where we were a few years ago with sat nav. Who, I thought, would pay $3500 (or more) for sat nav when you can get a map for a lot less?
Of course, now that my wife and I have had 6 cars with sat nav, it seems almost "who wouldn't" get sat nav (plus the price has dropped 50%.)
You see, I became spoiled when after 3 visits to Germany where I had taken the Audi winter driving school (actually in Seefeld, Austria), Audi gave us new 2.5L Turbo diesel A4 quattros with 6 speed manuals to drive for three days.
While "only" offering some 180HP compared with the gasoline versions 220 or so (this was in early 2002), the torque and smoothness of the diesels (coupled with their fuel sipping ways) won me over.
Then I see the Audi A8L with a really torquey 4.2TD get over 40MPG's, well I began to dream of a car about the size of an A6, equipped pretty much as we have come to expect from LPS cars with that same 4.2TD engine in it, beating the pants off the other guys and getting MPG's in the low to mid 30's even with my lead foot.
Then batteries happened. :confuse:
Now, finally, maybe US consumers will see the hybrids are "an" alternative, but perhaps not one that has as much merit as a seemingly old and friendly technology that moves our goods -- diesel. And a little bit of "hep" from Audi may be just what the public needs to whack it upside the head -- IF the diesel can win, place or show.
"One of the most dominant manufacturers in sportscar racing in the last few years, Audi, heads this weekend to America's most storied sportscar race, the 12 Hours of Sebring. Promoting diesel technology with the debut of the new TDI-powered Audi R10 and with serious competition from rivals like Porsche, the 12-hour endurance race promises to be legendary."
"The new Audi R10 TDI has written a piece of motorsport history making its début at Sebring (USA): For the first time ever, a diesel powered car has claimed pole position in a sportscar race. In Thursday’s qualifying session, Scotland’s Allan McNish broke the track record by over two seconds, impressively underlining the performance of the modern Audi TDI technology."
I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
I have not researched thoroughly on the technology, but I do look at the hybrid technology differently. As long as the premium for it is not huge, you might stand a good chance to recover some or most that additional cost at the time of reselling your vehicle. Combine the fuel saving, and feeling good at the gas pumps, I think it's may just worth my hard earned $.
I would not touch anything Infiniti. I hated their sales people in my car shopping experience, so regardless of how nice their vehicles are, I would never go back to their stores. OTOH, I am very happy with the GS. I don't need the room of an LS but I like Lexus's definition of sport/luxury.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
My apology.
I think the Z4 is perfect for weekend flings with the girl friends. The GS450h is perfect to go out with the wife and occasionally with her parents. The Subaru wagon is perfect for trips to Home Depots... Therefore, each car has it own merits.
Best Regards,
Shipo
By the way, thanks for the reply on the turbo question.