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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If a car comes loaded, and it costs thousands less than the competition, then great. Its like getting a car at Sams club. However, when a car only comes loaded and costs as much as its competition if they are loaded up with options, then its no longer so great. Its an annoyance, because they are essentially forcing you to spend the maximum amount of money on the car, when the competition allows you to choose what you want. For some reason Acura thought people would take their car seriously if they priced it up with E350. I predict by next year the M and GS will crush the RL in sales.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    One of your comments struck a cord with me. You said ... "A lot of people think they have "to show" that they have made it in the world (ego ego ego) and are willing to pay more than they should..." My wife is a very perceptive person...she reads people right most of the time. I looked at Lexus for a time because I really thought the car had interesting design and features and during that time she kept giving me feedback on that car that eventually convinced me that it doesn't fit us. She was right. I think that's what I like most about our decision to stay with Acura. It fits us. Beyond that I have driven the car long enough to know if it was worth the $50,000 to me. It is.
  • steven9179steven9179 Member Posts: 36
    I fully agree jj---some people just need that badge; I'll go for the total vehicle
  • scottjohnsonscottjohnson Member Posts: 61
    This thread is fascinating because it gives you insights into what various people value. For some it is quickness as evidenced by references to 0-60 times. For others it is the status of the marque. Others like techie goodies.

     

    Kinda cool to see the personal values at work. For my hard-earned $$, the RL gave me a nice balance of reliability, handling, goodies, and brand. But I'll be the first to admit that it was a tough (but very fun) choice to make.
  • jmatthejmatthe Member Posts: 51
    Don't agree with your comments. Who wants to spend 50 on anything and not get all of the options? I paid 47500 for my RL.... Go price out an E 320/350...with premium stereo (still sounds weak to me) Nav, AWD, sunroof (yes, 1200 I think), full leather (you only get inserts with the base), xenon (the base headlights are not great) Fold down seats (you need those just to put skis in the car). that still gives you 16" wheels on $78 Conti CH95 tires.OK Add sport package...hmm, still no Bluetooth phone or traffic nav. OK then, the E is smaller on the inside at the expense of a little more trunk space...I think it is still slower.... with AWD by at least 1 second ( hard to find that data)and pushes in corners big time...but you do get the badge on the hood!

    Oh yeah, keyless entry...1000....still not done... satellile radio 800...The MB website gave me 63,600 for the E 320 and another 1200 for the bogus handsfree system. But MB is offering some great leasing deals right now...wonder why, and you can always buy a car with less equipment than a TSX if you think there is too much in the RL. Go for it!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah the pricing of this new Passat scares me. It will be a great car, but if too pricey it won't sell in the numbers VW needs. VW has to understand that they aren't a luxury brand and needs to price their cars accordingly.

     

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think this statement:

     

    "If a car comes loaded, and it costs thousands less than the competition, then great. Its like getting a car at Sams club. However, when a car only comes loaded and costs as much as its competition if they are loaded up with options, then its no longer so great. Its an annoyance, because they are essentially forcing you to spend the maximum amount of money on the car, when the competition allows you to choose what you want."

     

    sums it up pretty much for me too. Gee, Lexusguy we're agreeing more and more and across different forums. What is happening man..lol?

     

    The Acura way of selling a car is the opposite of the European way of selling a car, and for the most part Lexus and Infiniti. All of these makes, BMW, MB, Lexus, Audi, and Infiniti all allow you to get what you want and nothing you don't want. Even Lexus and Infiniti have huge $$ option packages now. To me that makes more sense to load up a car with stuff I'll never use or even care about to try and cover up the Accord styling, poor acceleration (for 300hp), weak brakes, and a passenger seat that has less adjustments than your average 35K BMW or Mercedes or Audi. I really think some potential buyers are kidding themselves about RL thinking they're getting something for nothing, or a screaming bargain. Sure they give you some extra things, but they also taketh away some others. Priced at 44K I wouldn't say one word about the RL being a suspect value. One real negative (again imo) is that every RL on the road is the exact same, except for color.

     

    M
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The RL is a good value for people that want those things. If not then, it's not a good value. Simple as that.

     

    Personally, I'd rather take an RL for $49,500 than a base E320 AWD for $52,400, but that's just me.

     

    And I really don't care if they list the hp as 300, 100 or 3000. The RL still has better acceleration than all the V6 competition except the M35.

     

    The four-way passenger seat, yeah, I'm gonna gripe about that too. Give us more controls to sit our butt! =)

     

    "The Acura way of selling a car is the opposite of the European way of selling a car"

     

    Yep, it sure is. They give you a loaded to the gills car for about the same price as a base European car. Doesn't come with anywhere near the prestige of course.

     

    My pick of the litter would be an M35 RWD with Journey Package and Navi, priced at $45,260. The GS300 looks intriguing, but I don't like the front-end styling. Also, I'm not sure it's worth the price premium either.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't think the RL will out accelerate the upcoming E350 or revised 530i so that claim remains to be seen.

     

    M
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    When exactly are the E350 and the 255hp 530i coming? Been wondering about that for a while.

     

    I think the RL will still outaccelerate the E350 4matic or the 255hp 530xi auto by a nosehair. The manual 530xi will probably be faster than the RL. The E350 RWD also has a good shot.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The E350 goes on sale at the end of this month. The 530i I'm not exactly sure, they're saying April on all sites BMW.

     

    M
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Cool, just in time for the M35 and GS300. Gonna be a shootout.

     

    Here are the first drives for the GS and the M:

     

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId- =104584

     

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId- =104605

     

    Pretty positive for those cars, although not that in depth.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Clearly, I like the M45 more than the GS. The GS is just awful looking to me, way too long and heavy looking. It almost looks like a S-Class or A8L size vehicle.

     

    M
  • jmatthejmatthe Member Posts: 51
    There will always be the next best thing. Of the choices we have today, the RL is the best. Next month maybe something else, then the month after that. If you wait long enough you won't have to buy anything.

    I waited 4 months for hte RL to hit the shores, couldn;t wait another 5 for the wave of catch up form the Germans.
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    You think the M is better looking than the GS?

      

       You're slipping....and sliding away!

     

       DrFill
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I understand. Everyone has different reasons for purchasing different cars.

     

    callmedrfill,

     

    Of course I think the M looks better than the GS. You like the GS now? You hated it when you first saw it.

     

    M
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I'm with merc on this one. I'd give the nod to the M over the GS in looks.

     

    Some people get so surprised when others have totally different opinions in terms of car design, but it really is a very subjective area. Unless, of course, you're talking about the Aztec. =)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Yep, it sure is. They give you a loaded to the gills car for about the same price as a base European car. Doesn't come with anywhere near the prestige of course."

     

    Only the E starts at what an RL costs, and the 5 is close. You pay extra for those badges. The rest of the competition start a lot lower. As I've said before, the A6 3.2 starts at $42K. M35, $40 or 41. GS, $43 or 44. STS, $42 or 43. A loaded A6, M35, GS, or STS is roughly similar, but you dont HAVE to buy them that way.

     

    A TL comes loaded, and goes for something like $33k. A loaded ES330 can be well over $40k, and an A4 can get into the mid 40s. Even the G35 can hit $37 or 38K. Did Audi and Lexus make their A6 and GS too cheap? No, Acura made the RL too expensive.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I was responding to merc's comment about the "European way", not other Japanese cars. The A6 does start much lower.
  • bigrobnhbigrobnh Member Posts: 114
    I wish someone could explain to me the what the issue is with the price of the RL. Is it that you feel lack of control over your ability to pick options? Is it that there's no blue propeller/3 pointed star on the hood?

     

    I drive a 2001 E320 4matic and thanks to reliability issues and the service experience I'm facing the fact that I'll be changing cars in the spring.

     

    I drove the RL and I was very impressed. Personally it doesn't have the "heft" or feeling of solidity on the road that my E320 has. However, it is a very strong car. It beats my car feature for feature (I have mine maxed out).

     

    My issue with the RL? Rear seat space. I have a child safety seat in the back center. I can still seat two (admittedly skinny) adults on either side). That doesn't work with the RL. Secondly the trunk is a bit smaller but I think I could live with that. Otherwise I see that this car compares very favorably with my current car.

     

    M35/M45 is no holy grail from a pricing perspective. Lets say you wanted the M35AWD and you wanted a rear power sun shade (for example). To get that you need Journey + Technology + Premium. You are over 50 Large.

     

    I will look at the new GS300AWD but that's a 60 mile round trip for service (another story) so I probably won't seriously consider it.

     

    Do the people complianing about the US price of the RL actually own/have owned a car in this class? Or is this just a paper analysis with a bunch of personal expertise thrown in?

     

    Regards,

    BigRob.
  • gabmangabman Member Posts: 284
    Big Rob,

     

    I too will be changing cars in the next 4 weeks. I test drove the RL and opted to go with a M35X without NAV and DVD player.

     

    From what I have been following on this board, the issue with the RL is that the consumer does not have a choice. Acura have opted to market the RL with a "take it, pay full price for it or leave it attitude".

     

    In your comments, you mention that you have a need for a rear power sunshade and with the M35/45 you have to get considerably more options.

     

    However, if you were to find a different solution or forego your need for a power rear sunshade, then you would be able to do a deal on an M35 for considerably less than the RL providing of course you did not want all the other packages such as Nav and DVD.

     

    The issue here is all about choice or the lack of it when contemplating the purchase of the "RL".

     

    By the way, I test drove the RL back in November and the M35 yesterday, if my memorey serves me correctly I think the M35 had more room in the back seat.

     

    Good luck with your choice.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "I will look at the new GS300AWD but that's a 60 mile round trip for service (another story) so I probably won't seriously consider it."

     

    It takes about an hour and a half round trip for me to get to my Lexus dealer in Carlisle. Fortunately, I never have to go. My friendly Lexus service rep comes to my house.
  • bigrobnhbigrobnh Member Posts: 114
    Gabman, thanks for the reply.

     

    I was using the example of the power rear sunshade more as an example that Infiniti's pricing isn't necessarily much more flexible than Acuras. It isn't a deal breaker for me. I have it on my E320...I don't even recall if the RL had it.

     

    I agree, from what I can see the M35 is a bit more spacious than the RL. I look forward to seeing it in person. The cars look to compare very favorably.

     

    The pricing structures are a double edged sword. For instance, on the M35x, I'd take the journey package and I'd probably take XM. I'd like the upgraded rear seat accomodations (reclining/ventilated and sun shade). I have no desire for 5.1 audio, NAV, laser cruise, rear entertainment system, run flats, etc. So with the way Infiniti currently prices, I have to max it out to get what I want. They have some items ala-carte, why not all???

     

    In my opinion, some choice is worse than no choice at all. Acura takes that aspect out of the equation.

     

    Regards,

    BigRob.
  • bigrobnhbigrobnh Member Posts: 114
    they do that for your regularly scheduled maintenance? The mercedes dealer would laugh at me if I asked for that level of service.

     

    When they pick up your car, do they leave you with a loaner? Even for something small like regularly scheduled maintenance?

     

    What is the maintenance interval on the GS? That is the ONLY thing that spoils me w/my E320...computer only requests maintenance every 11K-12K miles. If I had to go to that damned dealership every 5K-7K miles I'd be in prison by now.

     

    Regards,

    BigRob.
  • gabmangabman Member Posts: 284
    BigRob,

     

    I am not going to get into the merits of the M35 compared to the RL as I have come to learn that peoples taste are very subjective as are their needs when they purchase a car. For instance I no longer have small kids and the need to get a DVD player for the rear seat passengers is not my need.

     

    When I compare vehicles, I always compare vehicles that are in the same market segment, currently I am purchasing in the Mid-Luxury segment whereas my current car (G35) was in the entry level luxury segment.

     

    When I saw the RL, I compared it to the Audi A6, BMW 531, Infinti M35. I don't think that this car compares with a Benz with equal equipment (just my opinion). The fact that Acura decided to load this car up with tons of great options and price it accordingly in my book does not take it out of the Mid Luxury segment and I came away with the opinion that the RL is over priced. I am not even sure anymore if the RL came with a DVD player and screen for the rear occupants ( Can someone let me know).

     

    By the same token, when I am out looking for cars I can't stand having to sit down with a sales rep and discuss tons of options and watch the price keep creeping upwards.

     

    A case in point is the Audi A6, (please keep in mind I am in Canada and am quoting Canadian $$ pricing.) . I went to price the Audi and we started with a base price of $ 59,500.00. After adding the exact same options that I was getting in the M35, I had to purchase no less than 8 different options and the price rose to $70,600.00, and this is with no Nav or DVD.

    To be fair the Audi is maintanence free for the duration of the warranty whereas the M35 is not.

     

    Bottom line is that when I shop for a car I want a car that is fairly well equipped that I do not have to order and wait to be produced. To me Nav and DVD are frills that I want to be able to choose or not choose. This is one of the major reasons why I like Japanese cars, save the RL. I have nothing against Acura, I even currently lease a TSX.

     

    Just a quick comment on your rear seat desires, My current G35 has reclining rear seats that I was so proud of, problem was that there has not been one person that has sat in the rear seat that liked them. Perhaps they could be handy on long trips with small kids in the back but for day to day driving I have found that my passengers like to sit up and see where they are going.

     

    As far as ventilated seats go, the M35 will be my first car with them so have to reserve comment until things warm up around here.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "they do that for your regularly scheduled maintenance? The mercedes dealer would laugh at me if I asked for that level of service.

      

    When they pick up your car, do they leave you with a loaner? Even for something small like regularly scheduled maintenance?"

     

    Yep. Its Lexus policy. The service interval for my LS is 7500 miles, not sure about GS. They come to the house, pick up the car, and leave me with either a Camry or Avalon for a few days. (Rahal Lexus is also a Toyota dealer). Then they wash it and bring it back. I dont have to do anything at all. Interestingly enough, the Mercedes dealer in the same area does it as well. Its not Mercedes policy, they do it from pressure from the Lexus guy next door.

     

    I wish Jaguar had that policy. The only time the LS ever sees the service department is for scheduled visits. My XKs have been to the Jag dealership many a time, and Im always the one that has to do the driving.
  • bigrobnhbigrobnh Member Posts: 114
    very interesting. Thanks for the info lexusguy. I'll have to take my visit to the (1) lexus dealer in NH more seriously.

     

    Regards,

    BigRob.
  • kfhmailkfhmail Member Posts: 199
    You said you did not agree with my comments... which ones? I could not tell from your message.
  • cybersolcybersol Member Posts: 91
    Here are three of these competitors similarly equiped with the main feature differences listed.

     

    Acura RL

    *Onstar, Traffic Link, Power Rear Sunshade, 17" wheels, Heated 8/4-way power seats (thus no height adjustment on passenger seat)

    MSRP Price $49470

     

    Audi A6 3.2 Quattro with Premium, Convenience, Nav, Cold, Sat, Sunshade, Voice Rec, and TPMS

    *Power Rear Sunshade, 16" wheels, 12/12 way power seats

    MSRP Price $48670

     

    Infiniti M35 AWD with Journey, Nav, and Sat

    *Rear View Camera, 18" wheels, Climate Controlled (Heated and Cooled) 10/6 way power seats

    MSRP Price $48110

     

    So, similarly equiped the AWD M35 and A6 are both slightly less expensive than the RL. And you still have the flexibility to drop options for a cheaper car or add options for more features, neither of which is possible for the RL. I think these are the factors that make people perceive the RL has less value than some of the competition.

     

    All in all, I think if the RL price had come in 3k lower, then there would not be any perception of a lack of value.
  • 00boxsters00boxsters Member Posts: 202
    The 2006 GS300 AWD is $44,850

     

    New Standard features included in base price, but are not limited to:

    Heated Leather Seats with Memory

    Smart Entry with Push Start Button

    In Dash 6 Disc Changer

    Projector Type HID Headlamps

    Knee Airbags

    Wood Steering Wheel and Shift Knob

    17" Wheels with All Season Run Flat tires

     
    "Premium Package"

    Rain Sensing Wipers/Adaptive Front Lighting System/Headlamp Cleaners $525

    Power Tilt&Slide Moonroof $1000

    Power Rear Sunshade $210

    Ventilated Front Seats $200

    Intuitive Park Assist $500

     

    Mark Levinson and Navi/rear camera+ are $4K extra
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    GS300 AWD base MSRP is $45,500 including destination.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It does make the RL an attractive used car buy however, as ALL cars are fully loaded instead of the usual 10% or so.
  • 00boxsters00boxsters Member Posts: 202
    I guess the destination cost would be petty close to $650.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Sorry, Merc1, I was away for a few days. This has to do with comments about how the young folks are automatic for VWs. This isn't showing up in any market stats.

     

    Toyota is eating VW's lunch (and other car companies that build crappy, unreliable cars). Toyota's market share continues to grow while VW is getting their head handed to them.

     

    There's nothing 'automatic' about VW getting the younger generation.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    This had to do with your complaints about autoweek comparing the RL to the S430.

     

    I think that times continue to change and dated, unreliable cars from MB, Audi and BMW continue to lose share to high value, reliable cars from Acura.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    Who the heck cares about a 1/10th of a second here or there. This isn't the 1950 drag race circuit.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "Sorry, Merc1, I was away for a few days. This has to do with comments about how the young folks are automatic for VWs. This isn't showing up in any market stats."

     

    Really? I guess Toyota's own research and reasons for creating the Scion brand was all wrong: to find younger buyers. Why would they create a "youth" division to attract younger buyers from not only VW, but Mazda and Nissan too, if they didn't feel they're buyers were too old and looking for "trendier" cars?

     

    Even Toyota's precious reliability couldn't save lame cars like the Echo, or the Celica and MR2. Care to research the average Toyota buyers age vs Mazda or VW? You won't be able to spin the results.

     

    I don't think you'll ever understand or accept that reliability isn't the end-all of a car purchase for everyone. There are other factors that your posts miss by a country mile.

     

    M
  • gogglespiasanogogglespiasano Member Posts: 28
    The criticisms of the Acura RL are not all justified. However, I think the rhetoric in this forum has caught up with the reality that RL has significant weaknesses (and will not sell at close to MSRP).

     

    I think this would be true even if the new M and GS were not hitting the market but they will accentuate the issues which the RL faces. It will be interesting to see if Acura tweaks the car for the 2006 model in terms of brakes, rear seat and/or pricing to address some of the concerns noted in this forum.
  • ckelly14ckelly14 Member Posts: 105
    It's great to see a number of different perspectives in this forum. Personally, when it comes to what is a relative "bargain" or not, I price all the cars with the exact options I need then compare. With the internet, this is easy. For example, I'm not interested in Nav or "dynamic cruise control", among others. I'm interested in the following cars:

     

    Audi A6 3.2 (Premium, Convenience,cold, voice, sunshade, sirius) 47,820

     

    BMW 530 (cold, stereo, premium, auto,sunshade, satellite) 53,690

     

    Acura RL (Loaded) 49,470

     

    M35 (journey, satellite) 43,610

     

    GS300 (premium) 45,335

     

    I'm not thrilled that the Lexus and the Infiniti does not separate the Nav from the stereo, but that's the breaks.

     

    I drove the BMW, RL and Audi over the last two weeks and I'm obviously waiting to drive the others. At this time I would pick 1. Audi A6 2. RL 3. BMW. This is actually independent of price, but as the Audi is the cheapest, I'm happy! The problem is that I'm moving, and there is no Audi dealership in the area. Given my initial problems with my last Audi purchase, I may have to put the Audi aside. I'm most anxious to drive the M35; I liked the G35, but I found it too small and the interior pathetic. A great driving car for the price, however.

     

    The above does not mention dealer incentives, although these may be hard to come by with the new models. Perhaps if the Acura was discounted....?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It may very well be. I hear you can already knock off 2 or 3 grand from the RL's $49K MSRP.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The PCS, which includes radarcruise, is a special order option priced at $2,850.
  • ckelly14ckelly14 Member Posts: 105
    Sorry for my ignorance, but what is the PCS?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Pre-Collision system. Its the same as Mercedes Pre-Safe, the car uses radar and if it senses an oncomming, unavoidable collison, preps the car for impact.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    " I don't think you'll ever understand or accept that reliability isn't the end-all of a car purchase for everyone. There are other factors that your posts miss by a country mile."

     

    Merc...I can appreciate Footie's posts. Sometimes your "spin" aggravates.
  • hihomikehihomike Member Posts: 111
    I'm a sales manager at the largest Infiniti Dealership in the U.S. We just received a new M35 and M45. I drove both of them and was floored by the power in the M45. The one we received was a Sport Version with Tech Pkg, Studio Surround Sound (14 speakers), and very loaded. MSRP is around $55,000. I don't think there is a sedan priced in this range that has the power, handling and comfort of this vehicle.

     

    I also drove the M35. Almost as impressive. It was similarly equipped and had an MSRP of around

    $48,000. The handling was identical to the M45, and has a 280 hp (270 torque) engine. Very spirited. Infiniti has done a magnificant job on these vehicles - major competitors for M45 are the MB E500, BMW 545i, Cadillac, etc. The M35 competitors are the BMW 530i, Mercedes E320, Acura RL, etc.

     

    These are now arriving at Infiniti Dealerships for test drives only. They will be available for sale on February 28th. We are receiving 35 of them for the 1st month. Definitely worth a test drive before making up your mind...
  • gabmangabman Member Posts: 284
    As you guys know I am all set to get an M35X,

    A BMW rep just left my office, he brought me a brand new 2004 545I to try out. 8 Cyl very well equipped, no nav, but I am not taking nav on M35.

     

    Price on a 39 mo lease is abou $120.00 per month more. There is no AWD, air conditioned seats, intelligent key or rear camera on the BMW but it is one mean machine.

     

    Sticker price was CAD $ 79495.00 reduced to $ 73,495.00 and this is price that lease numbers are based on. Lease rate @ 3.9% compared to Infiniti 5.9%

     

    Help!!!!!!!!!

     

    Anyone care to give me some input please!!!
  • 00boxsters00boxsters Member Posts: 202
    M35x is 2006

    545i is 2004

     

    AWD important in CA?

     

    39 month lease for both?

     

    How did they drive in comparison? The BM seems more sporty and the M seems more practical. The BM seems to give up more in practicality than the M does in performance though!
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Well, it seems to be that it's AWD, luxury features, and cheaper price in the M35x vs. performance in the 545i. Always a trade-off.

     

    I suggest you thoroughly test drive them back to back and make up your mind.
  • gabmangabman Member Posts: 284
    Thanks for the comments, model year is not important to me as Ii will be leasing and as such am not worried about any depreciation. Term of lease also is not important and the lease rates are still the same.

     

    I am however very concerned about the lack of AWD. I hear that BMW are not the greatest in winter even with 4 winter tires and I am in a snowy climate. I think that this is my biggest concern, second being the equipment that I would be foregoing in 2006 M35X. To be honest the drive of the BMW is exceptional and this is why I am torn
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,214
    If you think you need AWD, a BMW 545 is probably not the way to go...

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