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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, take away all of the luxury and "performance" of the Q7, GL or R-class, and you're left with the Pacifica, a mediocre minivan with conventional doors. I think Honda and Toyota would be rushing competitors to market if they felt in any way threatened by it.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    If you are in any way suggesting the price of the Pacifica after reading my post, I apologize for meandering all around.

    Audi Q7 as seen at demo in Cincinnati: ~ $56K
    Chevy Taho also seen at dealer in Cinti: $57K
    Escalade at another dealer here in Cinti: $66K+

    I assume the Pacifica would usually not go higher than a price beginning with a "3" but I guess you could max one out to around $40K before discounts.

    I have virtually no comment about the Pacifica. I have read that those who have tested it like it but think it aspires, price wise, above its station.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    I have been thinking of replacing my daughter`s Lexus rx300(?) may be a different number...It has done good service for our family, and without really knowing anythin just thought the Pacifica looked rather attractive from he outside....I`m with you on the huge suv, and gas milage, and just --as I respect your opinion--thought that may be something....I guess on further thought she should stick with the Lexus..Tony
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If she has an RX300 and you're looking for a replacement, go for the RX350. Another option is Acura's new MDX, Which should be a nice blend of the RX's luxury with the Infiniti FX's sporting nature.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Isn`t the rx getting an update soon? Probably stick with the Lexus, but she did in a moment of weekness mention a bigger model.. Tony
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm not really sure about that. The 270hp RX350 with the 3.5L engine is new for 2007, but they haven't changed anything else. My guess is that a refresh may come for '08 (probably with a change to RX450h), with a total redesign not before 2010. It is definitely going to run much longer than the RX300 did.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The ones on the S6 are wierd enough, but this is just going off the deep end. I really hope the production version doesn't have a front end like this:

    image
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    The front end looks like the Cheshire Cat...er...Bass. :)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    This would be yet another "real" or "photoshop"? version of the upcoming A5 coupe, yes? No?

    I like the wheels.

    Bit bling-y with the LED's.

    I always get in trouble when I say this -- but it looks like Audi is joining BMW in paying homage to Pontiacs of yore.

    Cat eyes anyone?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It's a CG "guesstimate" of what Audi's CLS competitor will look like, called the A7, according to Autoweek. The wheels were pulled directly from the S6.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    That isn`t my cup of tea, but I did see a bmw 6 today--convertable with the top down--and it looked quite attractive....Tony
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Really? I think the BMW 6 is the worst of them all, from its droopy "catfish" face to its "trunk from another car" rear. No thanks!

    image
    image
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    The 6 has grown on me...I`m just talking about the outside...Just one of those things..At first it was the rear I didn`t like, but now overall I like it and the convertable with the top down is what I saw today.....Not as much as my Audi by a long shot..Tony
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    BMW's designs are either love/hate. My wife hated the 5 series when it came out, but as other car makers do similar concepts, the 5 is looking 'not as extreme' to her.

    The 6 is a gorgeous car and has the best interior of any of the current BMW's. The dash is more like the older style and still seems to have a dash with a more cockpit type feel to it.

    But Audi's interiors are still the ones to beat IMO.

    Convertible with top up (seen in Ensenada)
    Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

    -Paul
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Some Perspective

    Since I am not a professional writer and since these blogs have a shelf life shorter than the time between pictures of Britney Spears in some alleged act of child-endangerment, I will remind you that in my three-car garage is one 2005 Audi A6 3.2, one 2005 BMW X3 3.0 and one still decorated Martha Stewart 7.5 ft Christmas tree (as it was on January 1st when it was moved (lock stock and ornament) from its place of honor in my living room "behind door three" of the garage.)

    Numerous test drives of LPS cars from three countries (for I'd say at least the last three years) and ownership of some 28 Audi cars over the years has, some would say, jaundiced me (OK, seriously biased me) in favor of that certain feel behind the wheel that only German cars have, but that Infiniti understands (and is sneaking up on) and that both Acura & Cadillac recognize (Lexus, oddly, seems oblivous.) Despite having and enjoying the BMW X3, I've never quite gotten the whole SUV thing, wondering instead why the Swiss Army Knife of cars (at the time), the Audi allroad was not a runaway best seller. Ditto the Audi Avants, BMW Sport Wagons and similar offerings from Mercedes. Seems to me that the station wagons from the Germans offer just about the best of all possible worlds for those wanting some additional space, comfortable seating, luxury and performance all in one stylish package. And, as we all know, 96% of all SUV's never leave paved roads despite their capabilities otherwise.

    I never really got -- not that I don't in many ways admire -- the Cayenne or the Touareg. My wife and I did consider these vehicles briefly but the lack of a stick shift really killed their chances of being picked as far as my wife was concerned. Then they cancelled the allroad, and. . .there you have it.

    Previously -- before last week, May 16th, 2006, to be exact -- all things Audi would at least draw me to them for a gander and then engender at least some lust (gotta have it, gotta have it!)

    The Audi Q7 LPSUV, without having been driven seemed -- after seeing it up close and personal -- to be a vehicle that I simply could not understand. It is, to me, a whale, a boat -- a German Escalade posing as a pumped-up, fancied-up Pacifica. It was the QE2 with wheels.

    I am, at just under 190 pounds and 6 feet, neither very large or very tall. My wife at just under 5'5" -- and her size is "petite" -- is likewise neither large or tall.

    So, with the "Perspective" above as a backdrop, this past Saturday -- a Spring day, beautiful beyond words -- we decided to take the Audi Q7 out for the long test drive we had previously declined.

    The Test Drive

    We chose secondary roads, "back roads," (but not off roads), city streets and the Interstate that circles Cincinnati (275) as our test loop. And, if you'll recall, we always take the test loop twice (at a minimum) to get used to the vehicle then to really put the vehicle through its paces.

    The machine in question was a $55,000+ Metallic Silver and very dark blue (?) leather upholstered behemoth with about $6,000 worth of options (putting it about $2K shy of a fully loaded Chevy Tahoe and $11K south of an almost fully loaded Escalade.) Most notably it had the middle wheels -- the 19 inchers. Everything else seemed pretty much A6 standard fare -- which is to say the interior was spectacular and very well made. In fact, the fit and finish of the entire vehicle was typical late model Audi: i.e., every seat seam was perfect, every electric motor and power-assist whirred in near silence, everything was damped, padded and stitched together as if money had been no object in the selection of materials or the time or labor involved in assembly. The front and second row seats (both rows with separate climate controls) were Leather Barco Lounger comfortable.

    If they had only come equipped with built in recliners and foot rests. . . .

    The Bose sound system, a premium option had the Sat Radio activated and, unlike my A6, the CD changer in this one is built into the dash within easy reach, unlike the C6 A6 which has the changer mechanism in the glove compartment.

    I said it before, the experience in the front two and middle two seats was "like sitting in a big hand" within the sweet spot of a fine surround sound system -- sing along with Randy Newman and me, "every man a king, every man a king and you can be a millionaire."

    The Q7's engine started instantly and made all the right sounds. It was, after all, an Audi 4.2L V8, one of the sweetest sounding engines ever bolted together. And, there aren't enough "o's" in smooth to describe the 6-speed transmission as it engaged precisely and shifted even more "like butta" than my A6 Tiptronic (which, despite my disdain for automatic transmission is second to none in smoothness.)

    The engine, transmission and gearing work together to belie the bulk of the package (nearly 5,000 pounds I reckon.) If it is possible for something this big to feel quick, nimble and responsive, this is a fine example.

    With the 19" wheels and tires, more road noise than I anticipated could be heard, but just barely. The upside of these shoes, however, was a relatively quick turn in at almost any speed under 40 to 45. Body roll below 40mph was well controlled and we couldn't detect any loss of balance that we would have almost forgiven for a vehicle this large with this much ground clearance.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Some Conclusions

    All things are relative, of course, and it bears repeating that "relatively speaking" this is the Audi LPS of SUV's -- it has the firmness one expects from Audi, the near sports sedan feel one would hope for and decent motivation from the V8. At full throttle, accelerating from a rolling stop on an entrance ramp to an indicated speed of 80+ the sound is typical Audi sweet -- yet here is where the real sense of the sheer heft of this thing is laid out for all to feel. Lots of nice sounds, no sense of friction, but also not much sense of acceleration -- kick-down works, of course, but there really isn't much in the way of any kick, hardly even a lurch could be felt when flooring it from a rolling stop.

    The window sticker say 14 MPG "City" -- that is the one I would use as I actually thought I could see the gas gauge needle fall as the speedometer and tachometer needles rose at full throttle.

    The Audi Sports Sedan of SUV's? Yes, I suppose it is. And, if you are in the market for the Tahoe, Escalade or even some other European "SUV's," you must at least consider the Audi Q7 as a worthy member if not the current leader of the pack.

    Yet, we still thought the thing was way too big.

    After our long test drives (2 of them, remember) we pulled back into the dealership where there were two more couples awaiting their turn for test drives. Speaking with our long time customer advisor, we shared our thoughts as to what we thought of the elephantine proportions and its relative nimbleness. Our salesrep responded that those test driving the Q7 came away disappointed because the Q7 was way way too small.

    Of course, these folks were coming from Excursions, Suburbans and Super sized Yukons.

    I thought, previously, "too big, too late." Now it seems popular consensus is "too small, too late." The sales team seems to think the Q5 may find a more receptive audience since the expectations for the third row seat won't be a factor.

    On the other hand, the dealer claims to have 6 sold Q7's arriving any day now.

    "All for the want of an additional 4 inches of leg room between the second and third row," the customer advisor ejaculated.

    I'm so out of it.

    Duly submitted. :shades:
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Maybe I can clear up some of the confusion. Why the Cayenne? Because it's as close to a sports sedan you'll come in the SUV arena, and because Porsche needed to build it to survive. So while offering the U in SUV it also has a capital S (particularly the Turbo S with over 500 hp). I guess you could ask why anyone would need that, but why would anyone need a 911 in a country where the speed limit is 55 in most places. Or even the 550 or A6 4.2. Cars that go 155 mph don't make much more sense than SUV that will never leave the pavement in terms of practicality. I would go so far as to say my Cayenne makes a huge amount more sense than my father-in-law's SL55 AMG or my brother-in-law's Viper. What I like about my Cayenne as opposed to my wife's A6 Avant is that the higher roofline makes it easier to get my child's car seat into and out of it, plus the cargo space is more flexible (her seats don't even fold down completely flat) not to mention the fact that the higher seating position has advantages. With regards to the Q7, as far as the U in SUV goes it's obviously very closely related to the Cayenne and Toureg though bigger (more U being the idea). Sure gas mileage is a concern for SUV's, but clearly people feel that the U makes up for it. Isn't it always a concern with V8's anyway? What I really think is that is comes down to personal preference. I'd rather have an SUV than a station wagon. Just never liked station wagons too much. Oh, and the V6 Cayenne does offer a manual transmission it make up for its lack of power.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My confusion is just that, mine.

    I am not criticizing anyone's selection of one of these vehicles.

    I personally find them too large and then find the fact that others think they are too small to be further proof that robots really ARE stealing my luggage!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .and progress happily enough:

    Kliky Klik & Grin
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The engine, transmission and gearing work together to belie the bulk of the package (nearly 5,000 pounds I reckon.) If it is possible for something this big to feel quick, nimble and responsive, this is a fine example.


    Actually, its 5,269 pounds. From the reviews I've seen it's handling considering that kind of heft is very impressive, but I don't think I'd call it quick, unless a 0-60 of roughly 8 seconds for the V8 is considered quick.

    That said, I think the Q7 and GL represent a serious threat to the Lincoln and Cadillac dominance of the full size luxury SUV class in a way that the LX never has. Unfortunately for Audi, I have absolutely no interest in a full size luxury SUV. The RX provides enough space on the rare occasions when we need it, and if I'm buying something so big it wont fit in the RX, chances are its going to be delivered to my house anyway.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I guess you could ask why anyone would need that, but why would anyone need a 911 in a country where the speed limit is 55 in most places. Or even the 550 or A6 4.2. Cars that go 155 mph don't make much more sense than SUV that will never leave the pavement in terms of practicality.

    Actually, there's one thing that these cars can do that's actually quite useful in modern NA traffic, certainly much more so than a "go directly to jail" speeding ticket for 155. Single lane roads with passing zones. They are all over PA, and PennDOT seems to think that maybe 200ft of passing space (half of which is on a blind corner or hill) is "plenty". When you put your foot to the floor and want to go from 40mph to 90mph to get ahead of the three 18-wheelers in front of you RIGHT NOW only a V8 can do that.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    I and a couple of friends, who over the last year have been test driving and reading about luxury sport sedans, have narrowed down the choices to M35x versus Audi A6 Quattro. When you read comparisons in magazines, online, or in such big comparison tests as the one run annually by the Canadian Automotive journalists, unless the editors default to the usual suspect (BMW 5 series, here it would be the 530xi), the two leading contenders recommended to buyers who l love to drive are the M35 and the Audi A6.

    In my own test drives, I found the A6 more nimble ... very subjective, that word, I know, but maybe a better way to put it is that I have been driving a BMW 3 series and, in the Audi I felt as if I was closer to driving a car that size, while in the M35 I had a sense that I was driving a larger car. Actual size comparisons: Audi A6 is longer (bumper to bumper) at 194.2" versus the M35 at 192.6"; but Audi has shorter wheelbase at and 111.9", versus 114.2" for the M35.

    On the other hand, the M35 was quicker off-the-line, when accelerating from dead stop. Audi had a just-noticeable slight delay in responding that has been noted by at least a couple of car magazines.

    Inside the car, I felt more at home in the Audi A6 -- taut, clean feel -- versus my wife and son, who, as passengers, continue to comment on the comfortable and luxurious feel of the Infiniti. Similarly, the control-center screen in the Audi presents radio stations and CD tracks against a black background, while the Infiniti presents everything in full technicolor. I liked the visually simpler black background. But the M35 offers regular push buttons as well, which I'd probably defer to when driving anyway.

    Anyone been comparing these two cars?
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I didn't say that you were criticizing anyone; I was just trying to give you a perspective on why someone would want a Cayenne or Toureg over a station wagon. Just for the hell of it, I decided to look at the size difference between the A6 Avant and Cayenne because I already knew my wife's Avant is a good deal longer than my Cayenne. Here's how they stack up:
    A6 Avant-193.5" long; 79.2" wide; 57.4" tall; 111.9" wheelbase; 4,167 lbs; 4.6" ground clearance; 33.9 cubic feet cargo space with seats up; 59 cubic feet with seats down.
    Cayenne-188.3" long; 75.9" wide (not sure if that includes mirrors; the Avant's measurement does); 66.9" tall; 112.4" wheelbase; 4,949 lbs; 8.5" ground clearance; 19.1 cubic feet cargo space with seats up; 62.5 cubic feet seats down; 1800 lb payload capacity (couldn't find this figure for the Avant).

    So really, the only way that the Cayenne is bigger is height by 9.5". It weighs a good deal more, but that weight is for the Cay S with the V8 and the Avant's is with the V6.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    A LOT of money to spend with that benefit don't you think? Don't get me wrong, I love all of the cars I mentioned. It's just if your talking practicality between them and SUV's both make sense in some ways, and not too much sense in others (overkill performance vs. needless off-road capabilities). Hell, my dream garage would be something like a Cayenne Turbo S, 911 Carrera 4S Cabriolet and the Audi A8. Currently, the garage and wallet are somewhat lacking!
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    There are two articles in Architecural Digest explaining design and style....Both interesting Tony
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, other than that, and perhaps the ability to rocket up an entrance ramp when there's a gap in traffic on a busy highway, what other reason is there to have 300+hp?
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Hey, I'm right there with you. That's why I bought the 325 hp 545i two years ago rather than the 530i, and why I bought the 340 hp Cayenne S rather than the base V6 Cayenne. If I had an extra $120,000 sitting around I would have gotten the 520 hp Cayenne Turbo S! All I'm saying is that in everyday driving in the US the extra horses aren't really utilized anymore than the off-road capabilities most SUVs have. I don't know about you, but I've done some pretty good off-roading (not in the Cayenne of course), and I enjoy it almost as much as I do throwing a car into a turn at scary high speeds. It's a completely different experience without a doubt, but fun none the less. Again, I bought my Cayenne because of it's ridiculous performance for an SUV as well as its utility. If we're talking about the practicality of SUVs I'd have to admit a lot of what I own is overkill. Do I need a 65" TV? Nope, but I sure do enjoy it. Do I need an SUV with 340 hp? Hell no, but I do really like how it gives me a lot of what you're talking about while at the same time being a much more flexible vehicle than my 545i was.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I am struggling to get by with a 62" Widescreen -- at least it is Hi-Def.

    What a world, what a world.

    I have screen envy!
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Not trying to stir the pot, but I'd say what a country, what a country! Screen envy is a tough thing, but hey, it's only 3 inches!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    And then after 65" you'll just have to go to a 70" er, when will it stop?

    I tried to buy the HD DVD player today -- one demo, none in stock. Incredible picture on Serenity the movie.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What's nice is that the new '06 HDTVs finally have actual 1080p HDMI inputs to go along with their 1920x1080 resolutions. More interesting is Samsung's first DLP RPTV with an LED light engine, the HL-S5679W. The LEDs have 4-5x the lifespan of the old Arc lamps, near instant start-up time, and since there's no more color wheel, there's no more "rainbow effect".

    Unfortunately, the LED set costs $1K more than its Arc lamp powered counterpart, and only comes in the 56" size.

    I really hope you were kidding about actually buying a HD-DVD player. Not only are the first gen players incredibly slow and buggy, but the HDMI 1.3 ports required to actually use the new super DD and DTS 96\24 lossless surround formats probably wont exist for another 2 years! HDMI 1.2 doesn't even exist yet! Not to even mention the whole, "HD-DVD could be the next Beta" thing.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Currently all 1080p (what little there is) is down res'd to 1080i anyway -- and some of the sources, HD Tivo, for one, allow you to specify 720P which happens to be the native resolution of my EOY 2005 set. I use the component run since I have that built into my house which provides an HD signal from the HD Tivo (programming from DirecTV) in eye popping quality.

    The HD DVD unit (there is ONLY one for sale) is $449, slow slow slow but produces a great picture. My favorite BRICKS retailer here in River City claims there will be a combo HD DVD, BluRay, DVD and CD player this fall from LG (Korean, as I recall.)

    What this has to do with LPS cars beats me -- so I think we'd better cease and desist. My email address is non private should you care to chat further.

    This all started sorta because we were talking about needs vs wants and how LPS cars generally fit into the latter category.

    I just received my copy of the BMW magazine and the next big technology (coming soon one would imagine to the LPS Bimmers) seems to be ACC (automatic cruise control) and lane departure warning and rear camera's DNA spliced together to darn near assemble what one would assume is the pre-requisite to a car that can come close to driving itself.

    We truly are at the point of "anything is possible" in these cars in terms of technology.

    What once were vices are now virtues, kind of thing, methinks.

    :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I would think and certainly hope that folks who drive BMW's would not need lane departure warning systems.
    Sounds like a direct shot at the Infiniti M.
    Too bad.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    There is a diagram of a new BMW in the new BMW Magazine that shows several "cones" of radar, sonar, video, etc as if they were force fields on the Starship Enterprise.

    Automatic cruise control, lane departure warning, proximity warnings and avoidance mechanisms are "comming soon" to BMW's. The cars appear to be heading towards offering more and more information, warning, avoidance and "control taking" technologies.

    The GPS system will, apparently, know the degrees of the upcoming left hand corner and will know the ability of your car to take the corner at a given speed. If you ignore the warnings the car will (be capable of) both apply the brakes and even steer to help you avoid an accident.

    One imagines that these systems will have off switches.

    However, it bears noting that the ESP systems (regardless of their TLA's) cannot TODAY be fully disengaged by pressing the DSC or ESP or anti-yaw, bla bla bla button.

    ABS on my first two or three Audis that had this techcnolty actually had ABS off buttons on the dash board.

    No more, it is, apparentely now known that I am not capable of knowing when I might want ABS on or off.

    Now, my opinion on all of this stuff is "mixed" -- I do want more gizmos, literally I want them. But I do not want them to be 100% outside my control.

    Auto drive is within our capabilities, we currently don't have the infrastructure to support it. One would imagine it will be deployed in the not too Star Wars future, though.

    I-Robot indeed.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Auto drive is within our capabilities, we currently don't have the infrastructure to support it. One would imagine it will be deployed in the not too Star Wars future, though.


    Unfortunately, I have to assume that in order to turn "auto drive" off, one will have to scroll through a 27 page lawyer screen warning of all of the dangers of being a human in control of moving vehicle, that crashing is not the responsibility of the automaker, and are you sure you wouldn't rather have the car do the driving while you enjoy a nice cup of tea?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Some interesting choices, and a very different perspective than you'd get from say C&D.

    http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,27909,00.html
  • jshattnerjshattner Member Posts: 32
    ...but the Infiniti M is not sold in UK.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well there are some Benzes there so I'm :D

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    ...but the Infiniti M is not sold in UK.

    Not really a surprise, Nissan has no real presence in the UK automarket. Their most expensive sedan, the Primera, starts at around 12K pounds. The Fuga 2.5 would probably cost at least 35K pounds.

    It was a surprise to see the GS300 make the list, as Clarkson usually hates Lexus vehicles.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well the M5 and M6 made the grade so I am very :):) !

    Well, time to load the family in the ol' estate car and be on my way. ;)
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    I'm helping someone think of options for their next car. The criteria: reasonably roomy, modest turning radius, a healthy dose of luxury goodies, and AWD.

    Also no German cars need apply (personal issue).

    So, I came up with the M35x, GS350, and Acura RL. Anything else I am missing?

    Volvo S80 too I guess, that has AWD now, right?

    I will probably toss out the Caddy STS as an option if it has AWD (need to check on that one).

    So, if I missed anything, let me know.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • purplem46purplem46 Member Posts: 54
    The M45/M35 will be sold in Europe, including Great Britain in 2008 under the name Infinity Fuga. They will also include a diesel version. Can't find the original article with most of the details, but the attached autospie article mentions it breifly.

    link title
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The Cadillac STS can be had w/AWD and it always seems to be discounted beyond belief here in River City.

    I mean, c'mon, the MSRP and the advertised price are regularly 5 figures to the left of decimal point apart.

    Why not just charge a more realistic price?

    Sheesh.

    Most of the folks that I know that have a personal issue with the German cars have issues with Japanese cars and often "ferrrin'" cars in general.

    Heck, while you're at it, why not consider the Chrylser 300CAWD unless the German ties somehow count against it there too.

    Of the choices you listed, I would be quite pleased to have the M35X, FWIW. :shades:
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Well, the reasonably roomy requirement makes the M stand out from the others. Don't judge them by advertised interior room. Go sit in them. You will be suprised at the differences (particularly the back seat). Rear seat room was a major requirement of mine, and I ended up with the M. The luxury, performance, and AWD certainly came into play, though.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Turning diameter

    M35 - 36.7
    M35x - 36.1
    Audi A6 (for comparison) - 39
    Lexus GS 300 AWD - 35.4
    Acura RL - 39.7
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    The M is my favorite, but it does get somewhat pricey.

    I priced out an STS on Edmunds. MSRP ~47K, invoice ~45K, TMV ~40K. The beauty of a $5,000 rebate!

    I have sat in a GS, and found it to be a bit cramped, especially the back seat. I also don't recall how big the trunk was, and that will be a big issue too. The buyer is coming out of an SUV so is used to some cargo room (OK, it's an FX35, so not a lot of cargo room!) so a 12cf trunk ain't gonna cut it.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The M is definitely my pick of the Japanese 3. It may be a little more money up front, but it will hold its value better than the Lexus, and much better than the Acura or Cadillac.

    The Volvo S80 is a big question mark at this point. The last one was about as much "fun" as a Toyota Avalon. The new one is supposed to be more peformance oriented, but then again its built on the same platform as Ford's Galaxy minivan. Just how much performance can you get out of a minivan platform?

    Also, in typical Volvo fashion, neither engine has competitive horsepower. Their brand new 3.2L IL6 makes just 235hp, which puts them at the absolute bottom of the pack. The 4.4L V8 is better, but it still has a below average 311hp. Considering how fierce the competition has gotten in the LPS segment, I think the S80 is just going to be an also-ran.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    "The M is definitely my pick of the Japanese 3. It may be a little more money up front, but it will hold its value better than the Lexus, and much better than the Acura or Cadillac."

    That's pretty bold speculation in the face of historical evidence which is absolutely to the contrary. The Acura RL has not fared well, but going back to the Legend and current TL, Acura's resale values are comparable to Lexus. The TL is above the ES.

    Infiniti, on the other hand has had horrific resale history, approaching that of the domestics. I am sure you remember the J30? Their most recent offerings, namely the G35, does better, but still well below Acura and Lexus in their comparable models. The Q is the fastest way to lose $20k driving a car home form the dealership. And both the Q and the J were good cars. A friend who couldn't afford to trade his J passed it down to his daughter. I believe that car is still around with 200k+ miles on the odometer.

    Speculating that the M will have much better resale value down the road than an RL is a crap shoot. The worst brand (Infiniti) vs. the worst model (RL) in terms of historical resale.

    I, on the other hand, would be advising that one consider both of these as long term purchases. Get what you want and don't worry about resale. It won't be a pretty sight either way.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    That's pretty bold speculation in the face of historical evidence which is absolutely to the contrary.

    What does "historical evidence" have to do with anything? Arent we talking about new cars? The RL has never been a desirable car, and it has never held its value well. The Legend hasnt existed for more than 10 years, and the TL is not the RL, so it really doesnt matter what its residual values are.

    What does an Infiniti from 1993 have to do with residuals for a 2006 M35? Have you actually looked at the residuals for G and M? Or are you just guessing based on the Q and ancient history like the J30? ALG rates the G and M just as good as the TL and Lexus IS, not "well below Acura and Lexus".

    Speculating that the M will have much better resale value down the road than an RL is a crap shoot.

    I'd have to say not. The G35 and FX35\45 have great residuals, and all signs point to the M being the same way. Its a hot car, the RL is a total flop. "Historically", a flop usually doesn't hold its value well. Look for yourself, you can buy a low miles '05 RL for $35k.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .of the LPS cars "sold" in the US are leased.

    Now my assumption is that if one is leasing, one finds the lowest lump sum, one time, out of pocket costs possible AND the lowest monthly payments and behaves accordingly.

    Factors playing into the low payments include: Capitalized cost, residual as a % of MSRP and money factor.

    The leasing arms of these LPS brands typically offer deals that rarely if ever can be duplicated by traditional financial institutions.

    BMW subsidizes (and their leases are said to be sub-vented) their cars. Infiniti, Lexus, Audi and -- of course -- Cadillac all do the same (Cadillac's motto must be, "we'll lose money on every transaction and make it up in volume.")

    These discussions about resale value apply to a shrinking minority -- the relevance of resale value is perhaps of import only to the CPO buyer (or financier), since they will not likely be able to enjoy a subvented used car purchase.

    So, I would ask the question pertaining to residuals: from where (what source) do we get [most of] our residual numbers? My guess is it is overwhelmingly the leasing arms of the various mfgrs.

    I saw a lease residual on a Cadillac -- something just under 60% (of MSRP) on a 36 month lease, etc. Good luck on trying to convert that 36 month old Cadillac into cash equal to 60% of the MSRP.

    Of course, other methods are employed that appear, to me, to suggest resale: Huge, deep, "unhealable" discounts off of MSRP, 0% interest for 60 or more months (and sometimes a discount plus low to no interest.)

    If you have to discount your Cadillac (or whatever) $9,000, "throw in" the first and last month's payments and offer the car at a money factor that equates to 1.9% to move them off the lots -- what exactly does that suggest about the resale value? Nothing too good, I'd wager.

    Buy your M or A6 or 530 or whatever and see what you could get on the "market" (any market -- private sale or trade in or anything you can dream up, Swapalease anyone?) at 6, 12, 24, 30, etc months.

    What seems to be happening is you can buy your car drive it off the lot and offer it to your neighbor with a high four figure discount and your neighbor will be better off going right back to the dealer and getting one with even fewer miles on it -- subvented.

    The resale value of an artificially supported "asset" is like a tiny fragile butterfly in the wind; and, such discussions, at this moment in the LPS automobile marketing scheme of things can hardly be used to "prove" anything with respect to the "value" of the car.

    The value of the car is overwhelmingly subjective -- retained value, cap costs and money factors when obfuscated by the manufacturers and their financing arms no longer conform [much] to our notions of amortization, depreciation and retained earnings for all most of us can figure out.

    Such concern over resale value, such arguments, i.e., seem -- today -- specious.

    Bet on the wind, in other words.

    :shades:

    P.S. :confuse: Despite its repeated showing at the bottom of the pack do we know that Acura considers the RL a "total failure?" Audi, who fights Acura for that coveted last place showing keeps touting, in its press releases, that it is having its best year(s) in its history.
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