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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "BMW's horrible reliability."

    That was years ago.
    Even CR has upgraded BMW reliability to satisfactory.
    Stick with audio.
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Totally true. Both BMW and Audi scored in the top 8 of JD Powers reliability. Certain types love to spread this crap around and it just isn't true.
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    How is Audi going to be driven out of business, when globally it is the third largest premium brand in the world. It outsells Lexus 3 to 1 if not more, and in Europe, Audi dominates its classes. The American ignorance regarding Audi is the only thing that makes you look stupid around the world in the automotive sector. A German(and they makes these cars) saying goes like this, {MB is for Taxis, BMW is for status climbers, and Audi is for those that have arrived.} Seen this in many German print.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It is just a matter of time before Audi's U.S. arm gets the full attention of their German bosses. When they do Audi' full potential in the U.S. will be realized. Audi and VW especially don't seem to have as much say with their German bosses as their other markets do IMO. Audi needs more promotion and better placement in the same venues that MB and BMW frequent.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Is the RL (and Acura overall) well? I assume Acura is fine -- the success of the RL notwithstanding.

    Actually, Acura is not fine right now, and May in particular was a very painful month for them. Total sales YTD are down 6% compared to 2005, and total sales for May are down 17% compared to May 2005.

    The new RDX and MDX can't come soon enough. The RSX is going to be eliminated with no replacement, and every Acura model with the exception of the TSX (sales are flat compared to May of '05, but up 13% YTD) is down significantly.

    RL sales are down 28% for the month, and 32% YTD. Its a disaster. While a big drop in sales is to be expected for the MDX, the TL which is only two years old took a 20% hit in May, and things are about to get a lot tougher for the TL with the new G, A4, CTS, and C class all coming soon.

    Acura's lineup has gotten really small. With the coupes all gone, they are left with three sedans and two trucks, and no engine choices. Not good.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Lexusguy, Bose home audio sucks but the car stuff is average to pretty good? I have to go listen to the Infiniti M. I’m wondering why they were blessed and Porsche got the short end of the stick. Rich545’s last post is an indictment in itself. The operative in the Porsches is to turn the treble all the way up and the bass all the way down. And you are still left with zero quality midrange through speakers that sound like pillows are covering them.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Somebody needs to tell Audi about Columbus’ voyage. I mean, what are they waiting for? Automotive sales are through the roof with 4-car families quite the norm these days. It’s gotta be that much harder with VW reeling.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Hopefully I misread this post for it suggests that something I posted indicates a concern on my part that Audi is on the brink of failure.

    Overall, my confusion has to do with the imbalance (sales wise) between Audi and BMW (to pick two for this discussion) in the US.

    My opinion pertaining to the LPS cars we discuss here is that most of them are quite good and sans styling cues are far more similar than dissimilar.

    Infiniti's M's are quite "German-like" in the most positive sense. I can only assume that companies from all over (perhaps even Cadillac) will be able to figure out the German Driving DNA, thus further diminishing the differences between these cars.

    I have, at this point, no concerns for Audis survivability if somehow something I posted led anyone to that conclusion.

    I still think Audis are a secret to plenty of US buyers. For someone wanting some more exclusivity -- black on black on black (paint, leather, woodwork) BMW 5's bookend (at least) every row of cars I see in my little city. From time to time an A6 can be spotted.

    On my 15 - 20 minute drive to work it is rare to see another A6, I can't even get out of my sub division without seeing a 5 series. If BMW's regularly outsell Audi's 3 to 1 overall (in the US) it must be at least 4 to 1 here in Cincinnapolis.

    Assuming the pricing I enjoyed with my 12 months ago acquisition continues, Audi's, once again, are "bargains" -- last year I felt that had stopped being thus what with both BMW and Infiniti willing to deal on attractive cars and Audi sticking with high lease prices.

    Apparently, the tables have turned and once again an all equipped A6 is some $5K less than a BMW similarly outfitted -- and Audi's leasing deals are helpful now.

    We'll see if this is a trend -- BMW is very aggressive.

    I received an email yesterday from BMW encouraging both my wife and me to call an 800 number to arrange to test drive EVERY BMW model imported into the US (no fine print -- take a 3,5,6,7 and both X's and the Z out for test drives, PLEASE) -- in exchange, BMW will donate $1 for every mile we drive to the fight against breast cancer.

    I figure we're good for at least 140 miles (20 miles per car, 7 cars -- $140 from BMW to aid in the fight against cancer, all whilst we're enjoying drives in some fine German cars.)

    I don't see Audi doing this. More's the pity.

    Of course, when I called the BMW store to talk with them, both altruism and capitalism reared their heads. They really will let us drive an M6 or M5 for instance -- even though they know we are not in the market; for, overall, this is how they attract people to BMW who might previously only have considered Volvo's (or, heaven forbid, Audis.)

    Smart move -- we've already signed up. :surprise:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The M with the top level stereo sounds fantastic. I can't comment on the Cayenne's system, havent heard it. Edmunds did include a Cayenne in their "2005 Top 10 stereos in cars over $30K" list though, so it can't be all bad.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Huh? Not sure where you got that idea, but I have both the treble and bass turned up all the way. Have you ever even heard the stereo in the Cayenne? Sounds like pillows are covering the speakers??? What a joke!
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Who really cares how the world views our choices in cars? Frankly, the German saying that you quoted makes THEM sound stupid. MB is for taxis? Yeah, my father-in-law's SL 55 AMG sure drives like a taxi! BMW is for status climbers? I would say that anyone that can afford any of the top models by any of the 3 companies have "arrived" in a financial sense at least. Simply because Americans haven't taken to Audi's the way Europe has proves nothing. I saw many, many more A3's in Europe than any other Audi model. The A4 would be the second most abundant. So how does buying the two least expensive models show that you've "arrived"?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    :confuse: I don't know about the saying quoted -- I've not heard it before, but I have seen sales figures and they are a lot closer in Europe than they are in the US -- and I generally focus on one vs one not the entire model line up.

    BMW's 5's (for example) do not outsell Audi's A6 "over there" by a minimum of 3 to 1 as they do "over here."

    It seems, superficially at least, odd -- and as the differences between all of these cars seems to have diminished over the past 3 - 5 years substantially, well it doesn't seem to be simply attributable to the "product."

    Frankly, I would be quite pleased with an A6, 5 or M (Infiniti) LPS car. Styling (assuming minimal price differences between them) is THE BIGGEST difference as far as I am concerned, at this momemnt.

    My preference for the 530x is simply because it can be had with a stick shift. I am less impressed with it in auto trans configuration. Equipped with auto transmissions, perhaps, the 5 drops to being my third choice of the three.

    But, the point is the products (features, functions, performance, i.e., "content") continue to cluster ever closer together, yet both Audi and Acura from a strictly units per month perspective are always at the bottom which makes no sense to me especially since the BMW and the Audi and the Infiniti seem (to me) to be more attractive from a performance standpoint than the Lexus offerings -- yet even Lexus outsells the A6.

    I would think the Audi, BMW and Infiniti would be bunched closer together sales wise based on my own experience with the products from a "driving dynamics" perspective.

    Elsewhere this seems to be the case. What do we know here that makes this not the case?

    Probably rhetorical, BTW, but, inquiring minds . . . well, you know the rest. :confuse:
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Mark … Although I'm not in marketing, about 25 years ago I read a book titled "Positioning". It became a small-time classic and was reissued in a 25th anniversary edition. The basic premise (not radical, just presented with lots of interesting examples) is that a major variable in the success-equation of any product is how well it manages to position itself -- in the collective consciousness of consumers -- among its competitors. Classic examples are "Kleenex" being used by us as a symbol for any product in its class, or hearing someone say they are doing some "Xeroxing" while standing in front of another brand name copier. BMW has been a champ at positioning itself. The inline six engine, constantly refined over the years, has become an engineering icon. The 3-series was hailed by Automobile magazine as "the best compact sport sedan in the world, a car that continues to get better and better with each evolution, when it would be so easy to, ahem, screw it up? In the process of not screwing it up, BMW has produced a car that is the gold standard for its class, something that all other automakers feel they have to measure up to. Yet, no matter how hard they try, they always come up short." Audi would have to had done that with, perhaps, Quattro, but that would have required their doing what Automobile described BMW as having done (whether everyone agrees that BMW did exactly what that magazine says it did is less critical, in what I'm saying, than that it's a virtual universal belief). My experience test-driving an A6 S-Line was unique. Nothing else (and I currently drive a 3-series) drives exactly that way and, if you like driving, the way it drives is not simply different but the best in certain ways. Whatever it would take to fill in the blank I left with the phrase "in certain ways," Audi marketing hasn't done it well-enough. I've only been considering "luxury" cars for about three years, so I've had to develop my own inner landscape of the category and its subcategories. I could, I suppose, rely on nothing but test-driving to develop such an internal "map" of what's what among luxury cars, but it's typical for me to also read and discuss, in the process of getting my bearings with something new. Here's a piece of research data that tallies with my own experience. When Consumer Reports asked its huge sample of car owners if they would buy their current car again, not one BMW made the cut where at least 80% of owners said they would definitely buy or lease the same car again. The Audi A6 did make the cut (80% exactly), as did the M35/45 (92%) and the Audi S4 (81%). Whatever that is, BMW (with our collective cooperation) retains its desirability, at least in the very important sense that led me, when I went to buy my first luxury car in 2004, to think something like "I've got to have one of those 3-series cars once in my life." This probably reflects inflated expectations (for any car) or an over-investment in driving-excitement as one life-pleasure, etc, but whatever, I'm probably among a subgroup (maybe, size-wise, an important one) that might not buy a car based on "I liked test-driving that one best." I'll probably buy a mental representation of a car and then I'll be (very satisfied, satisfied, neutral, unsatisfied, very unsatisfied) with what actually happens (day to day driving, longer trips, getting things in and out of the trunk, radio, NAV, hands-free phone, mileage) compared to that mental representation. Whatever doesn't let Audi capitalize on the fact that people who actually drive them everyday would buy another one, they need to change that. I like both the M35x and the Audi A6 (V8, maybe) S-Line. Viscerally, I like the Audi experience. In terms of the cars-in-my-mind, I lean toward the M35x. Probably, I'm never 100% aware of all the influences that have led me to buy one car over another, but right now, as best I can read myself, the Audi interior feels right, I actually like the MMI, I believe my Treo (soon to be 700p model from Verizon or Cingular) will work more easily with it than M, I hear niggling noise complaints online from M owners, I worry that sound-tuned exhaust in M would wear thin, Audi tires seem more practical, and I like going with the sales underdog (Audi down, M up, right now), and too many people don't even recognize what the M is yet (also get a bad feeling from fact that Nissan can't hone engine to give better mpg). As for the M35x, there are all those "one of the best cars ever" reviews, there was the like-a-shot-off-the-line experience, there are buttons for the radio and climate controls, the rear seats recline (mostly a wow factor for passengers, but, what can I say, I'll like hearing it) -- but don't fold down (that will annoy me), the curvy front where the fenders are stylistically separated from the hood (like on the Mini Cooper), there's the predicted reliability (I expect Audi engine to sputter one morning, even here in the SF Bay Area's mild climate -- as a Passat I owned did a few times and as some online and in reviews have reported -- you know there will never be a BMW review that says the test car engine idled rough on start-up), and the Infiniti's service is highly rated and the local place has been among the top 5 in the country (while I hated the service dept at the nearest VW/Audi dealer when I had the Passat) and Audi is phasing out the Audi Advantage. I go back and forth about liking/not liking the more luxurious (as in fancy hotel room) interior of the M, compared with the (I'm in a driver's car feel of the A6).
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    "BMW's horrible reliability."

    That was years ago.
    Even CR has upgraded BMW reliability to satisfactory.


    I do think the word horrible is a bit off. However I wouldn't be boasting about "satisfactory" reliability. At this level of engineering, prestige and cost I would expect very high or above average reliability. BMW still doesn't deliver this but their owners haven't really demanded it - I'm not sure why but if I paid for a Kobe beef burger I would expect it to taste a whole lot better than McDonalds. Then again I could "brag" to my friends about my prestige dining experience which will justify my added expense : )

    PS CR still doesn't recommend BMW's V8s.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    When Consumer Reports asked its huge sample of car owners if they would buy their current car again, not one BMW made the cut where at least 80% of owners said they would definitely buy or lease the same car again. The Audi A6 did make the cut (80% exactly), as did the M35/45 (92%) and the Audi S4 (81%).

    Two other surveys come to mind (wish I had the URLs).

    There was a survey of German consumers about perceived and actual reliability of Japanese vs. German cars. Germans believed that their home brands were more reliable but when they actually surveyed owners of each, the Japanese makes proved much more reliable. Despite this Germans still feel that their cars are better made!?

    GM also conducted a survey evaluating car buyer's perceived ownership experience with actual ownership experience. For perception MB rated very high followed by BMW but in actual the MB scored very poorly, the BMW below average. So there still is a disconnect between expectations and real world experiences, but a strong brand still overcomes this. Lexus scored high in both.

    Thanks for you intelligent post.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I haven't seen the actual model breakdowns by sales (5 vs. A6, 3 vs. A4, etc.) for Europe, but just from what I saw in Spain at least there were easily 3 times as many A3's as any other model. I think one thing that affects sales here is that Audi did have some negative press years ago that granted was somewhat unfounded, but nonetheless obviously impacted the perception people in the US have about Audi's. I think Audi is beginning to get beyond that, but it is still there. Plus, the reputation that their brother VW has for poor reliability doesn't help. I honestly think they need more distance between themselves and VW at least from a marketing standpoint. I really do think a lot of people here just think of Audi's as more expensive Passats. Finally, given the smaller streets and generally less consumption oriented European culture both lend themselves to the abundance of A3's you see there.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What is Audi's repeat buyer rate in the US, do you know? I think one of Audi's biggest problems isn't the VW connection, or some "unintended acceleration" problem that no one remembers.

    Audis from just one generation ago had pretty terrible reliability, and the problems were mechanical failures, not more easily fixed and generally less critical electrical issues such as on a BMW or Mercedes. Also, Audis service departments are generally not known for being the best. I know more than one last gen A6 owner who has told me "never again". It seems like Audi's quality is improving, but getting those customers back won't be easy.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    They talked about their brand new Initial Quality Survey.

    Cars with the biggest improvement included Porsche and Hyundai. Porsche actually moved up to No 1 overall followed by Lexus. Hyundai moved ahead of Toyota.

    Cars with the biggest drop in the ratings include BMW and MB although Hummer and Land Rover still ranked at the bottom.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .I have read over the years that I have been participating in this blog (these town-halls), negatives descriptions of the reliability of certain brands (notably, Audi, BMW and Mercedes.)

    I have seen enough Consumer Reports citings to make me wonder if it is not one of the world's Great Religions for pity's sake. I do not read the CR bible, nor do I attend the CR church, so I generally discount CR's prose on the subject of automobiles -- finding instead the writings of other folks here and on some other brand specific web-log sites to be able to lend credence to the "topic du jour" with far greater verismilitude and conviction.

    Recently, I read the phrases about this that or the other (often German) car's "horrible" reliability. And, it gives me pause to read such declarations.

    I read and pause when I read such stuff wondering "how many BMW's or Mercedes or VW's or Volvos or Audis or whatever. . ." the person writing that sentence actually has had.

    I have never had a Lexus. I have test driven Lexi (if that is the plural), I have rented them and I have participated in comparisons of them with other competitive car brands, ostensibly aimed at the same demographic and overall market. I assume, cause "y'all" write it, that Lexus builds cars of such reliability that, on a scale of one to ten, they rate an eleven. I read and from my limited exposure as a renter or a tester, that they emphasize luxury over performance (in the LPS category for example.)

    I have read many test reports of Lexus cars -- can't say I've ever read a negative review. I have, however, read several (many) remarks that suggest they can be boring if you are looking for an "involving" car to drive.

    My rental and my comparo testing make me at least understand the possibility that that could be accurate. From another perspective, though, such comments could easily be reconfigured to arrive at the conclusion they are "perfect" luxury cars or appliances (that last word used apparently to suggest the test driver found the drive somewhat uninvolving.)

    My point, to repeat, is I am not a good source of dialog and comment about Lexus cars since I have limited experience with them.

    My experience with German cars from Audi, BMW and Volkswagen is, with no hubris intended, extensive both qualitatively and quantitatively. This is especially true with respect to Audis -- for Pete's sake I've almost certainly had at least one representative sample from every year since 1977.

    So, the point is: when I speak about a car, I do, frequently, speak from personal experience.

    When I read the cries pertaining to a brand "such and such and such ARE or HAVE horrible reliability haunting them," or words to that effect, I wonder if that poster is speaking from personal experience.

    When certain folks, here, speak -- I listen. I listen because they have convinced me that they "know Lexus" or that they "bleed little blue and white propellers" or actually "have a car with a three pointed star."

    Sometimes, recently, I wonder how many BMW and Mercedes and Audi bashers (either directly or indirectly, bashers, that is) actually have had multiple representatives from this brand so that they can actually support their allegations with first hand experience.

    If I actually believed Consumer's Reports, I guess I could look it up myself. I want to know what personal experience you have had.

    If you had a used Volvo (that was a hand-me-down) in 1979 when you and your live-in were first starting out and the darn thing couldn't pass a repair shop without a $100 visit, well that is a data point (perhaps a not too relevant data point TODAY, but a data point nevertheless.) I don't know if that would be sufficient evidence to proclaim "never again" as it pertains to your willingness to actually seriously consider a new Volvo for purchase.

    Likewise, one bad experience with "A" (1) dealer of the XYZ brand persuasion is not enough to justify extrapolating that XYZ dealers "suck," and the whole world knows it.

    I can understand, appreciate AND agree that you may be partial to Cadillacs or Acura's or (like me) Audis. This affection for one, however, is insufficient to crucify "all the rest."

    I have no personal, direct evidence that Audi and BMW makes cars that are any less than "virtually" bullet proof insofar as durability and reliability are concerned.

    I believe these two Germans, however, have a reputation for less than ideal marks in these two traits.

    It is rare to find anyone with direct experience that will validate the negative experiences in this regard, however. If you have had 3 trouble-free Lexi that have each gone a minimum of 150,000 before their first break-down, even that is insufficient experience to allow you to proclaim "Mercedes have so many problems (and we ALL know they do), I wouldn't buy one with YOUR money."

    Your XYZ positive experience, then, is sufficient to allow and perhaps REQUIRE you to report it, but it is not sufficient to allow you to somehow be critical of the one that is NOT the XYZ.

    With folks joining and un-joining these town halls and blogs all the time, it is difficult (for me, and I am here lots) to separate the wheat from the chaff sometimes.

    I care not if you like BMW's or Acura's or Audi's -- if you like the Infiniti M or loathe it is fine with me. I do want to know why you do or don't -- and I would simply like to know what part of your conclusion is based on experience.

    "Consumer Reports says. . ." doesn't do it for me anymore (not that it ever did.) Your non-experiential based proclamations of "fact" likewise don't float my boat.

    Your opinions are invited, sought after, indeed.

    I really enjoyed, for instance, the discussion of LPS sound systems -- some was factual and I assume based on experience, some was opinion and highly engaging and virtually all was "enlightening" and entertaining.

    Audis, in my experience -- spanning some 29 years -- are very reliable (not having had any one of them past 50,000 miles, however, I cannot with great veracity proclaim they are super durable -- but, they might be, for all I know.)

    Our two BMW's too, have been very reliable. Ditto, however, the durability comment, since we've never had one beyond 50K miles.

    End of Rant. :surprise:
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    Catching up here.
    [ and skipping past most of the audio discussion posts ]

    RE: STS – AWD, etc.

    I have not seen posted here the fact that the V8 STSs will have the latest GM six speed (wide ratio spread) 6L50 trans. for 2007. Potentially enhancing both acceleration and (steady state, cruising speed) fuel economy. A recent GM Powertrain press release indicates that a “rev match on downshift” feature will now be included. Published acceleration numbers (and my test drives) indicate that the STS V8 is already reasonably quick – among the models discussed here.

    Though the 2007 on-line order guide is up, few other 2007 details have been released. Some discussion posts are on the STS \ STS-v board here at Edmunds. I don’t think I have seen anyone who posters here regularly post there. Though (obviously) there may be readers who do not post.

    If a a fully optioned 1SG (STS V8 with most everything included in the package except the perf. handling and the adaptive cruise & HUD) becomes available at an actual transaction price close to $50K once we are into the 2007 model year, I may seriously consider it.

    Option package inclusions and separate option availability (& not) as well as the overall pricing strategy for the STS does still confound me . . .

    The STS has now been rated “average” for reliability by CR, based on their most recent survey data. FWIW. Anything even approximating a Domestic Luxury Performance Sedan with a reliability rating “that high” in CR have historically been few & far between.

    And the JDPower Initial Quality survey released today shows the Caddy Brand #7 – exactly tied with Infiniti. With both Audi & BMW below the Industry Average. Ironic.

    - Ray
    Waiting for further details on the 2007 changes and an opportunity to drive the updated STS . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    No idea about the repeat buyer rate, but it would be interesting to know. I do know that people remember that Audi had problems in the past because when my wife bought one people mentioned it as a reason for not buying Audi's. Now whether the problems they remember have to do with the unintended acceleration or just general bad reliability (or both) I don't know. The VW connection certainly doesn't help the reliability concern though (at least not to me or people I know (my wife included before she bought her Avant)). It's hard to change perceptions once they're bad. It's funny because VW was bad for a while, then they got somewhat better in the late 90's (while Audi had problems). Now VW is having problems again with quality and Audi seems to be doing better. Wonder why they can't both seem to be good at the same time. Anyway, I'm just trying to figure out the root cause for Audi's relatively poor sales compared to the rest of the LPS group. I think there is a lot more to it than a lack of dealerships (as I stated before I think that dealerships open due to demand, not the other way around). I'll tell you what though, Porsche's VW connection with the Cayenne didn't help much!
  • zidecarzidecar Member Posts: 49
    I think one thing that affects sales here is that Audi did have some negative press years ago that granted was somewhat unfounded, but nonetheless obviously impacted the perception people in the US have about Audi's.

    In '75, I purchased an Audi Fox, my first "German" automobile. It was strongly recommended at the time by CR and was one of the few cars that did not require a catalytic converter to meet the then emerging emission standards. The car had FWD and was a joy to drive but an ongoing maintenance nightmare. My vehicle was one that had suffered from high oil consumption (valve guide seals) and took a class action law suit before VW owned up to accepting some responsibility for the problem. This, coupled with a dealer attitude that was completely devoid of "customer focus", turned me off completely to the brand. I expect that I was not being uniquely discriminated against and other Audi owners also voted with their "feet" based on their experiences.

    Fast forward 30+ years. During this period I never looked at Audi as a vehicle that I would consider again. I did, however, throw it into the mix when I was looking for an '06 AWD model. In the end, my short list came down to the A6 & M35x. Given my prior experience and the less than stellar reliability ratings for the Audi (as well as the other German cars, for that matter), it didn't help in "tipping the scales" in the direction of Audi. Another factor, and it may just be perception/sensitivity on my part, but I did not find my local Audi dealer to be as friendly or willing to work with me to purchase an Audi. Shades of a "lack of customer focus" kept coming into my mind.

    Perhaps if I had not had the experience from 30+ years ago, I might have purchased the A6. That the A6 made it to my short list was, in itself, an accomplishment. I wonder if that may part of Audi's problem. It isn't sufficient to be the runner up on a short list, it has to make it over the top. I would be curious to know how many other buyers had Audi as the runner up to their final choice.....

    -- Zidecar
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Anyway, I'm just trying to figure out the root cause for Audi's relatively poor sales compared to the rest of the LPS group. I think there is a lot more to it than a lack of dealerships

    An interesting comparison is Audi and Infiniti. Neither has a huge amount of dealers, neither has much if any "badge effect" compared to the tier 1 players, and neither has been seriously competitive in the US market for very long. Audi perhaps since 1996, while Infiniti didn't pull out of the also-ran club until 2003, and yet the G and M are much bigger sellers than the A4 and A6. Why is that?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The Audi was the runner up for me, too. But, the deal Audi made me, AFTER I told my long-term salesman that my wife had actually ordered and taken delivery of a new BMW and that I had ordered and placed a deposit on a new M35X, was too good to pass up.

    Indeed, perhaps the Infiniti was the runner up but the price, before Audi's actions, was too good to pass up for a car that was such a close second to the Audi.

    Today, based only on what could be had today, not rumored, not pre-announced, no spy shots, etc, I would have Audi, BMW and Infiniti on my final three list.

    If all three were the same price (reasonbly close), the BMW would win solely due to the fact that it can be had with a stick. Otherwise, I would probably choose the Audi, the Infiniti and the BMW in that order.

    Yet, if the Infiniti pulled out a great lease deal that bettered the Audi, I still think my ability to perceive substantial differences is not so great as to be overcome the financial incentive -- hence, I would then go with the M35X.

    The interior, fit and finish, etc, of the Audi "leaves the other two on the trailer" (to quote CSABA CSERE from Car and Driver.)

    And, great as the Infiniti is, it still hasn't quite figured out the balance between road feel, performance and ride quality.

    The BMW, despite its obvious strengths seems to have a stark and somewhat cramped interior. It is, frankly, the most dated of the three.

    But, OH the BMW with the stick shift - - - darn, excuse me while I clean this drool off my face.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Who "counts" today as a tier 1 player?

    I would assume all the LPS crowd (here) are top tier regardless of the monthly numbers.

    I saw the bubble diagram recently which placed, as I recall, all these in the Premium Bubble, Volvo (I think) in the near Premium bubble (but overlapping the premium bubble) and Saab (and others) in the near premium bubble.

    The trouble with the bubble, so to speak, is that the cars in the bubbles are not all in the center of the bubble but are spaced apart from each other, apparently signifiying that Saab is "just barely" a near premium offering, while some other one -- Acura, perhaps, is in the Premium bubble but just barely, kind of thing.

    The question is, who determines top tier and who is in it today?
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    I dunno, Mark, but my 3 Series, when I had it, sure felt like a top tier to me, at that time. It was by far the nicest vehicle I had and to me, it felt like top tier.

    Now that is not to say that it is perceived as top tier in the market. Obviously the 5 and 7 Series would be considered higher tiered than the 3.

    I think the point is, top tier to me may not be top tier to you or to Joe Driver down the street sipping his Starbucks.

    I buy what I like and what fits my needs and wants. :) If it does it with luxury and performance, I feel like I have a top tier vehicle - the critics be darned.

    -Paul
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I would assume all the LPS crowd (here) are top tier regardless of the monthly numbers.

    When I said "tier 1", I meant the status and weight behind the badge and the brand in the US market, not sales numbers, or necessarily indivudual vehicles. All of the cars discussed on this board, from the E to the RL, all qualify as being genuine LPS's. However, the Mercedes badge and the BMW badge carry more weight than anyone else, certainly more than Audi and Infiniti.

    Some people will buy a Mercedes just to have the vaunted 3-pointed star on the hood, and all of the tradition that goes with it. I don't think anyone buys an Audi or Infniti just for the badge. Yes they are luxury brands, and I dont think nearly as many people would be willing to pay the same money for an identical car with a VW or Nissan badge on it. Thats why the Infiniti brand was created in the first place.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    So, BMW and Mercedes are tier 1, period. Is this what used to be said when it was said something was the "Cadillac of. . .fill in the blank?" Perhaps at that time, the top tier contained ONE marquis -- Cadillac and Imperial and Lincoln were luxury cars but couldn't command the "status" of the Caddy?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I would rank the brands in just terms of "badge effect" in the US market like this:

    Tier 1: Mercedes, BMW
    Tier 2: Lexus, Cadillac
    Tier 3: Audi, Infiniti, Acura, Jaguar

    This is just MO. I think 10 years ago when Jaguar had V12s, it would be at the top level. Sadly, not anymore.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    Wouldn't it be nice if actual defects-per-mile figures were available from disinterested sources? Broken down by functional (beside the road dead) vs. inconvenience (oh my, the rear sunshade won't roll down)?

    Yeah, and we can all flap our arms and fly to the moon (credit Charles Shultz).

    How often, and how, cars break down appear to be closely-held secrets by those who know -- the rest of us speculate. We base our speculations on what we read & what we hear, or (if we're worthy) what we've experienced.

    I've experienced phenominal mechanical reliability from every Asian vehicle I've driven, for well upwards of 100K miles (each). I've been led to believe I won't experience that from the Huns (it's okay, I'm one), based on watching and listening.

    Where's the solid data? Defects per million miles, types of defects per million miles, that sort of thing? CR crap doesn't cut it in my world any more than it does in yours. Either way, trustworthy data regarding DPMO (defects per million opportunities) for each car brand, broken down by type of defect, would put many brands on notice, and others on an upward sales trend.

    I'm not holding my breath, though many wish I would.

    So far, it's all anecdotal. Bring real data.

    Perception is (often) reality. I'm nearing 100K miles on a car I bought just over six years ago, and I may well be driving it a year or two from now. I buy cars, while most in this segment lease. You've been through the A8 (with the brake rotor thing), the Allroad & now the A6 in the same time period. Ray (from another board) has been through two LS's & a VW w/ the W engine, plus the Pontiac I think he's driving now. Long-term reliability is a concept, not a relevant feature, to people who have to be bribed just to change the oil.

    That said, my #1 choice for my next car is a BMW 3, followed by a G35 coupe. The G35 paint quality seems to have been an issue of late, so the BMW moves up even higher. Both can be supplied with manual transmissions.

    Hoping for the best. . .
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • bfeng7bfeng7 Member Posts: 47
    Tony,
    I've owned BMW's since 1982. The old ones were simpler, but generally more reliable cars.

    When I say reliable, I'm NOT talking about how fast brake rotors wear out. I'm talking about parts that fail sooner than they do on almost any other brand. Examples: radiator necks that breakoff at 50kmiles, ABS system controllers that fail catastrophically at 60km (BMW said this is about the expected lifetime), AC condensor fans that fail at 55kmiles. Wheel speed sensors that fail (all 4) at 60kmiles, MAF's that fail twice before 40k miles, etc.

    There's a large BMW club in the USA, and they can provide you with plenty of feedback on the poor reliability of modern BMW's. Now, in all fairness, my sisters E46 has been great (I've been talking about the 5 series).

    John
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    What am I missing?

    "There's a large BMW club in the USA, and they can provide you with plenty of feedback on the poor reliability of modern BMW's. Now, in all fairness, my sisters E46 has been great (I've been talking about the 5 series)."

    There was a lot of commonality between the parts on my E46 and my E39, and both were extremely reliable. I'm having a difficult time understanding how the 5er is less reliable simply by virutue of the fact that it is a "5" instead of a "3".

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    I did not buy another Audi after my 1998 A6 quatro for several reasons, reliability was one of them. I had a bunch of repairs one wouldn't expect on a car that didn't have many miles on it: differential leak, fuel senders (2x), water pump (only 40K), leaking gaskets, radiator, tie rod ends, suspension pieces, and a few other things more costly than I care to remember. I only had 60K or so miles on it when I sold it. I did like the car, and was almost willing to give them the benefit of the original disappointment, but I just do not fit in the new one. I had probably one of only a handful of the 1998 model (special ordered) without a sunroof. That added a WHOPPING 2.85" in headroom to the car in that model in that year. Yes, I know you can get a new one that way, but you CANNOT buy it with most of the nice-to-have stuff. So, from my sample of one, my experience did not lead me to believe the car was reliable. I looked elsewhere - bought an M35x. Some stuff I like better, some I do not. Too early to tell overall. Time will tell. I got a ride to the airport in a MB M500 (?), and with the driver's seat all the way down, my hair was rubbing on the ceiling, and that was with the seat reclined more than I like, too. That thing is significan't higher - there should be abundant seat to ceiling height. Don't the car manufacturers realize people are getting both taller (not much you can do about that) and (unfortunately) fatter? Oh well, maybe next time. BTW, my first new car way back when was a Citroen ID19. It had the most comfortable driving position of any car I've ever owned - the gas and brake pedals were a simple ankle swivel apart - no need to lift the leg. I could also wear a smokey-the-bear hat (scoutmaster if you wanted to know) and still have plenty of headroom. Oh well...maybe my next car will truly fit.
  • swedishiron1swedishiron1 Member Posts: 16
    i own a 1988 Volvo 780 w/ 285,000 miles - very very reliable so far. Admittedly i only put 60K of the miles on it. It has the "bad" PRV V6.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I have had 3 BMW's since 1993. No problems.
    I have had the 545 V8 for a year and the car has behaved flawlessly.
    My own anecdotal experience indicates that either CR is full of crap, or I have been blessed with incredible luck.
  • jshattnerjshattner Member Posts: 32
    Much as I love my M45, I'd agree it's tier 3 in your list of "badge effect" brands. But Caddy is not even close to the same "brand" league as Lexus. Maybe one day, long, long ago, it was Tier 1 on this continent, probably all by itself with a run from Lincoln. Now it'd be in tier 4 on your list, even if it is fighing it's way back.
  • bfeng7bfeng7 Member Posts: 47
    Reply to 2 posts:

    "What am I missing." It bugs me too.
    The 3 series seems to be more reliable than the 5 and I can't tell you why. The radiator failure on the e39's is so prolific, one nearby dealer joked with me that they're surprised when they see an original radiator on any 5 series with more than 60k miles on it. When my ABS controller gave it up, the parts guys said, "yup, those go all the time so we always keep a good stock of them." And so forth ...

    Howard, I'm happy for you. Just because BMW's are statistically less reliable than Fords and Kia's ... It does not mean you won't get a run of perfect BMW's. Can I chip in the next time you guy a lottery ticket.

    Seriously, the average reliability is so good these days it doesn't take much to put a vehicle below average on a reliability survey. It's not that hard to get "lucky" and own a very reliable BMW, it's just that statistically you're much better off with other brands.

    John
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Audi doesn't seem as interested in exciting U.S. consumers about their product as does BMW or Infiniti. As a potential buyer, I had to generate the excitement from test-driving. As Mark said, Infiniti hasn't yet gotten as good as they might get at blending overall feel of excellence (they depend too much on "flash" appeal), overall feel of road and engine through the steering wheel and gas pedal (but the manu-matic transmission is, to me, a wonder among the rest), and smooth-power (too much sound effect and raw power). But, at the moment, the front-to-rear balance and the rear-wheel-favoring four-wheel-drive system seems closer to what I was looking for. I can't say I've gotten Audi out of my system and might make another comparison test-drive of V8 Audi A6 vs M35x tomorrow.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I agree with your last paragraph.
    Average reliability is so high "it doesn't take much to put a vehicle below average on a reliability survey."

    I have been driving a long time and have never seen a MB or BMW stuck on the side of the road.
    Maybe, statistically, I am looking at the wrong roads.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    “my first new car way back when was a Citroen ID19. It had the most comfortable driving position of any car I've ever owned”

    I am still amazed that no car I have driven since 1991 has provided the level of front seat adjustability that was included in my 1991 Pontiac Grand Prix STE (3.4L V6, 5-speed Getrag manual trans.). 3 distinct levels of back \ lumbar support firmness – each infinitely adjustable – for both the driver and front seat passenger. As well as side bolster adjustment for the driver. And even seperate individually adjustable left & right front thigh support adjustments!

    Particularly for long-ish drives, this made for a very adaptable & comfortable driving environment. And all this (15 years ago) on a reasonably priced, mid-sized GM sedan. (Reasonably priced, meaning approx. $20K MSRP at the time.)

    Front seats that cool as well as heat are very nice, but where can I buy something like this now? Odd. I’d pay extra for it!

    Does anyone even offer something like the lovely black corduroy (genuine) Recaros in the 1978 Audi Fox I drove for a while? In this class Sedan, I am surprised that there is not such a choice. But then option choice & (un)availability seems to range from odd to bizarre, from my standpoint.

    - Ray
    Likely an ‘anomaly’ in many respects . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    “the A8 (with the brake rotor thing)”

    Mark –

    I recall reading posts during ‘the brake rotor thing’.
    The amount of time spent in dealer visits alone stood out to me – since I just do not have the flexibility in my work schedule to deal with such repeated car related repair issues.

    Would you mind posting a brief synopsis?

    And I recall distinctly thinking at the time:
    “If this sort of thing happened to me, it would absolutely be the last Audi I ever drove.”

    Or at least the last one I even looked at seriously – for a long while.

    Although my recollection is that the dealer certainly did ‘work with you’ on this issue, the fact that a quick and final ‘fix’ was not available from Audi in a timely manner certainly would have soured me on the brand.

    - Ray
    Thinking brakes that work reliably ought to be a really high priority . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    I've been test-driving and researching the M35x and the Audi A6. I ended up favoring the M35. As a last check I reread CR's Auto Annual and the M35's "Problems" forum. That forum leaves a much more troubling impression of M car than CR did: moonroof rattles, a bad speaker in the seat (which would require tearing the leather seat apart to fix), headlight beams that point too low, loose driver seats. Then I noticed that CR's survey was done in spring 2005 when the M35/M45 was only selling for a few months, so CR's conlusion that "first year" reliability was outstanding appears to mean "first 90 days" reliability was excellent. On the other hand, there is no similar Audi A6 "Problems" forum on Edmunds (maybe, if there was one and I read it end to end, as i did with the one for the M35, it would produce the same concern in me), but CR's problem areas (for 2005 A6) are serious ones: engine (similar complaint from a couple of reviewers) and power equipment. Have those of you who compared the M35 with other LPS concluded it's likely to be as nearly perfectly reliable as CR leads one to believe (as do other sites, sich as Intellichoice)?
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    2022 X3 M40i
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Mark … great rant. My problem, not having owned a luxury car before my 2004 BMW 325i, is that I only have test-drive personal experience to share here. I loved driving the Audi A6 V6 S-Line better than any other car I tested and the open, clean interior appeals to my aesthetic a bit more than the hugging-luxuriousness of the M35. I want to want the Audi, and with the V8 for 2007 coming in with FSI and predicted 10% improved mpg, I would expect to be delighted with that. However, my experiences are based on 7 to 10 mile 1/2 hour samplings of these cars. So, I turn to CR and other reports of longer tests to get some sense of dealership and service department quality. Your rant did lead me to read CR Annual more carefully and realize, at last minute (having thought I might go ahead and order 2007 M35x today), that CR’s survey of M35/M45 took place in spring of 2005, shortly after M car went on sale, so it’s really a 90 day reliability survey which concludes that “first year” reliability was excellent and 95% of owners had no problems and 92% said they’d buy one again. While repeating on forums like this what CR has said is, I agree, not as unique a use of the forum as sharing personal experience, it’s hard to know how to minimize likelihood of becoming engaged to service dept manager when buying one or another new car. For your amusement, I will draw your attention to the fact that, with all BMW’s (especially the 3-series) accolades as best of the best, there is not one BMW model on the list of cars for which owners reported they would definitely buy or lease the same car again, while the Audi A6 and the Audi S4 are listed, as is the Infiniti M35.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Much as I love my M45, I'd agree it's tier 3 in your list of "badge effect" brands. But Caddy is not even close to the same "brand" league as Lexus. Maybe one day, long, long ago, it was Tier 1 on this continent, probably all by itself with a run from Lincoln. Now it'd be in tier 4 on your list, even if it is fighing it's way back.

    I'm not sure about that. The Cadillac badge still resonates with some of the more traditionalist buyers, the people that buy DTS's. That group is definitely shrinking, rather than growing though, so they are definitely going to have to rely much more on the merit of their products in the future.

    Tier 4 is Lincoln, Volvo, Saab, and I guess Mercury and Buick, the pseudo-luxury tier. Cadillac doesn't belong in there. Tier 3 perhaps, but not 4.
  • zidecarzidecar Member Posts: 49
    .....a much more troubling impression of M car than CR did: moonroof rattles, a bad speaker in the seat (which would require tearing the leather seat apart to fix), headlight beams that point too low, loose driver seats.......
    Have those of you who compared the M35 with other LPS concluded it's likely to be as nearly perfectly reliable as CR leads one to believe


    My M35x had the low headlight problem and headliner rattle. The low headlight problem I solved myself by adjusting the headlights based on information from this forum. The headliner problem was cleared up by the dealer. Those have been the only problems I have had in just over 8K miles of driving the M and a time period going on 10 months. Of the many cars I have owned over the past 35+ years, the M35x has the record for the fewest times back to the dealer for problems. It is significantly better than any of the Toyotas, Lexi or BMWs that I have previously owned.

    So far, it is tracking closely with what CR has stated in their review. I would like to think I could repeat this statement again in 12 and 24 months. ;)

    If you ask the question again next Jun and the one after that, I will give you the answer.... :)
  • clpurnellclpurnell Member Posts: 1,083
    What are you currently driving?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The A8 was not plagued with brake rotor issues that would merit much discussion.

    Two A6 4.2's (a 2000 and a 2001) however, went through 9 (NINE) sets of rotors during my ownership experience with them.

    The dealer and AUDI worked with me -- I was never without transportation and I can and will admit to levels of ebbing and flowing frustration over this situation.

    During this period of time, I had the chance to drive cars from several manufacturers and the "shudder" (indicating warped rotors, or so I thought) was "rampant" during those years.

    I did keep the faith, so to speak, possibly (probably) longer than other folks might have given similar experiences.

    My A8 did have some issues, but the brakes don't stick out as major problem ares. In fact nothing was a major problem, but I did have to have the power steering column replaced (twice), the booties that are full of a smelly liquid on each wheel also had to be replaced as they leaked and did cause lots of odor as the liquid was burned off during braking.

    I dunno, maybe this latter problem caused some brake issues. Nothing compares to the 9 sets of rotors on the A6's. The 1999 A6 had fine brakes, the allroad, ditto, my wife's 3 TT's and 3 A4's were fine, too.

    My 2005 C6 A6 has great brakes -- great pedal feel, never any shudder or wobble.

    Overall, brakes in the newer cars are fantastic.

    I may or may not have shared my BMW 325ix (1988) experiences. New rotors and pads at 30,000 miles -- "routine" or so we were told.

    Perhaps my loyalty has been bought (or was) because throughout all the crap that happened, I never was without transportation and there was no oop cost.

    Perhaps, today, I would not be as tolerant.

    My issues, in perspective and hindsight, were never so bad as to make me leave the brand.

    OTOH, I never had had experience with Lexus or Honda or fill in the blank cars to compare to.

    My previous experience had been with Chrysler products and they were always in need of repair or maintenance and did not offer the joy of driving that the Germans provided in abundance.

    I tolerated the issues because the driving experience had, in my mind, no peer. I took the bad, so to speak, to enjoy the exceptional.

    To repeat: that was THEN, this is NOW.

    My tolerance is probably lower these days -- but, hell, as I age, I am also shorter! :surprise:
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    Briefly (since this does not fit the LPS criteria) . . .
    2005 Pontiac Grand Prix GXP.
    Very quick.
    Amazingly smooth powertrain.
    ( But FWD - though very well managed, IMHO. )
    Torque & more torque.
    Lovely heterodyne beat of a small block V8 exhaust. ( yum )
    Well screwed (welded, glued, bolted) together - at 15,000 miles.
    Surprisingly supple ride - with Bilstein dampers.
    Not perfect, and not equipped to the Luxury level generally seen on an Audi
    But an absolute, screaming bargain at 'Employee Pricing for Everyone' plus a $2K rebate - 1 year ago.
    Some additional details are in my year review - posted here on that board.
    Something interesting & entertaining to drive while I watch these 'Interesting Times' in the automotive realm unfold . . .
    - Ray
    Waiting for exactly the right LPS, at exactly the right price – for me . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    I would not take c.r too seriously...I have found them to be behind the trend line....All information is of value to an extent, but to base a final decision on something that does not excite you---you will regret...As hpower has said ` maybe I`m looking on the wrong road`...Well I can say` I am on the same road as he`...Tony
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