Luxury Performance Sedans

drtravel · June 2006

.....a much more troubling impression of M car than CR did: moonroof rattles, a bad speaker in the seat (which would require tearing the leather seat apart to fix), headlight beams that point too low, loose driver seats.......

Note that the moonroof rattle was a design flaw found in the early builds of the M. I immediately noticed the problem and took my new M back to the dealer. Not only did the service manager and dealership owner bend over backwards to help me but Infiniti sent over some engineers from Japan to look at my car. They gave me a $300 gift card for my troubles, fixed my car, immediately issued a TSB (photos of my car!) plus ordered a fix at the factory so no cars after the first few months would have the same problem. Do you honestly think any other manufacturer would have done anywhere near the same? Infiniti wants this car to be the best and have shown a willingness to listen to the customer. Keep in mind it's a brand new design with almost no brand loyalty.

I've driven 18K miles in the past 14 months with no other issues. My local Infiniti dealer also comped my 7.5K service. I did have to pay the $255 bill for the 15K service. By the way I'm averaging 18.95 mph for a 50/50 mix driving.

I too have previously owned a BMW, Lexus and MB. Based soley on my ownership experience (and chatting with other owners and managers in the respective service departments), I would still rate the Lexus as best but Infiniti is close. I have to own the Infiniti for a few more years to see how things play out. BMW was below average - I would still buy another however no way would I own it pass the warranty period - so leasing is the way to go - plus they sub vent their leases. (Note Infiniti is doing the same with their leases... where did they get the idea?). The MB proved to be a real POS. I will never own one of their cars again! For that kind of money I was expecting a whole lot more.

Keep in mind none of these cars as a whole are bad. Probably 90+% of BMW owners have no problems (including everyone on this forum) so I can see how many would have no problems with three or four cars. But then again if you compare it to 98+% of Lexus owners with no problems - well then you can see how some would rate the Lexus as more reliable. Of course if you're one of the unlucky 10%, well life sucks. I'm happy for all the car owners on this forum who have no problems. I don't wish for any car owner to suffer. Believe me, I've met some of those 10% and they weren't happy campers.

drtravel · June 2006

Based on surveys received from car owners evaluating their first 90 days of ownership.

2. Lexus - 93 problems per 100 vehicles
7. Cadillac - 117
7. Infiniti - 117
10. Acura - 120

Industry Average - 124

25. MB - 139
27. BMW - 142

Let the spinning begin.....

lexusguy · June 2006

There's already a discussion about the merits (or total lack thereof) of the new IQS report in the HELM thread. The problem with the new study is that it focuses on design issues as well as defects, so BMW is being hurt because of iDrive, not necessarily because their cars are having problems.

markcincinnati · June 2006

So, in my case, since in the first 90 days I had TWO new pushbutton starter replacements, that would have counted as "2" -- and if 99 other customers had reported the same experience, the number would be "200."

If the industry average is 124 per 100, which means, I presume, 1.24 problems on average per car for 90 days, I enjoyed problems worse than all of these cars.

Funny, I guess, even though I can recall these issues, I would in casual conversation (with no intention of hiding anything) say that my 2005 A6 which will soon be 13 months old has been "virtually" flawless.

My perception, my reality -- even though technically the problems I described (which did extend to 4 total pushbutton starter switches before it was apparently fixed permanently) really don't bother me very much at all -- when adjusted to be factually accurate means I have had a lousy 13 month run, despite the fact that my impression is otherwise.

Ja? :confuse:

jshattner · June 2006

I have a newer production M45 (4 months old, 5k miles) and today I discovered the roof rattle!! (However, it turned out to be my sunglasses in the roof holder

)

Seriously, so far the car has been flawless; the service knowledge less so. I'm coming from a series of MB's (E430 / E55 / E500) and before that Lexus. This car is consistently the most fun of the group, although the Lexus LS400's were completely trouble free and the dealer service was incredible. Hope Infiniti lives up to them in the former area and improves in the latter department.

sfcharlie · June 2006

From msg #7503: "The problem with the new study is that it focuses on design issues as well as defects, so BMW is being hurt because of iDrive, not necessarily because their cars are having problems."

One website I googled upon broke down the results and BMW did not only suffer, in ranking, from design ("we don't like how iDrive works") complaints, but also defects and malfunctions:

Brand-Defects-Malfunctions-Design Problems
Infiniti-117-57-52
Audi-130- 60-62
BMw-142-52-82
Mercedes-139-65-68
Lexus-93-42-45

hpowders · June 2006

Yes. I can attest to the different way one is treated at the Lexus vs BMW dealerships.
BMW: Very impersonal. The "you want it or not?" mentality.
Lexus: Salesman took his time with me, made me feel special.

I leased a BMW, however, because of the great lease deal and free maintenance.

I recommended my Lexus salesperson which resulted in a sale and he sent me $100 in gratitude.

When I lease my next vehicle, it will be to the Lexus Dealership where I will be going first.

markcincinnati · June 2006

Here in Cincinnati, the experience at the BMW store is akin to the show Cheers when Norm walks in and "everybody knows your name."

Ditto the Audi store.

However, the experience at the Lexus dealer may, for all I know (which is not much on this aspect) be as good, worse or better.

The BMW store does stand out as a major case study on "How to make customers feel special."

Arrogance? Nope.

Take it or leave it? Nope.

Have a homemade cookie & some fresh brewed Starbucks? Yep.

pat · June 2006

(not that anyone asked, but I get to say anyway!

)

that experiences at one, two, even several dealerships aren't the best way to decide anything about a brand. In all the years I've been hosting here, I can tell you that I have learned there is NO brand that doesn't have bad dealerships and NO brand that doesn't have good ones, at least of the brands that we mostly discuss.

And the other thing is that you are buying a vehicle for some number of years - the experience with the dealership will be over and done with, however bad or good it was, relatively quickly in the scheme of things.

FWIW ... :shades:

proe · June 2006

I have to agree with our host.

And, that reminds me of car ownership. There are quite a few people who spend a lot of money to own a car that does not fit their social status, meaning someone who only makes $60,000 a year, buys or lease a M45.
For those people, they will expect both the car to be trouble free and the dealership experience should be excellent because from their perspective, I have spent a fortune on this car.
However, if that someone makes $200,000 or more a year, then that someone does not care much about both the car and the dealership since to that someone, it is well within his/her financial means. So, when you buy a car that is within your financial means, you are usually not bothered by the problems of the car and bad experience of the dealership.
You will still have problems with your car and bad experience with dealership no matter who you are and what kind of car you own

Just my 2 cents...

hpowders · June 2006

I leased 2 vehicles at my current BMW dealership.
The second time in, the salesperson gave me the keys to any BMW vehicle I wanted to test drive and never came with me.
I went out with 5 different BMW's for as long as I liked.
It's a bit better when they know they have a "live one."

akhi2006 · June 2006

proe, your are wrong. It doesn't matter what you make. People making more than 200K are more demanding. When we purchase groceries if the supermarket is not clean or the staff is not friendly we never enter that store again and you are talking about dealerships ( Big Purchase ) here.

qbrozen · June 2006

well... maybe its cutting off my nose to spite my face, but I refuse to give my business to a dealership I am unhappy with. In my case, that includes all Toyota dealerships in reasonable driving distance, so I've written off Toyota for life. Can I blame the manufacturer? No. But it still means I won't buy one of their cars.

pat · June 2006

that we can cavalierly categorize what people want and don't want by their income ... let's skip the generalizations and stereotypes about people and stick to the cars. Thanks.

pat · June 2006

Understood - my point was mainly that bad dealerships do not make for bad cars. But I hear you.

drtravel · June 2006

There's already a discussion about the merits (or total lack thereof) of the new IQS report in the HELM thread. The problem with the new study is that it focuses on design issues as well as defects, so BMW is being hurt because of iDrive, not necessarily because their cars are having problems.

Both BMW and MB scored poorly in the latest Powers survey and as expected their owners are challenging the new techniques employed and not really paying attention to what the results revealed. Of course if their cars had rated much better (like Porsche) they would be praising Powers on how appropriate their new survey was - that's what I meant when I said let the spin begin.

Both suffered from defects - both mechanical and design related. If something is poorly designed but works properly, isn't that an issue the manufacturer might want to know about?

markcincinnati · June 2006

. . .regardless of manufacturer, regardless of the city in which you live, regardless of your income is the thing.

One of the folks, now retired, I worked with would only buy Cadillacs. He bought a new one every 24 months period.

He hated his dealership experience, to hear him tell it the dealer was full of crooks and boobs.

If I felt that way, I probably couldn't stick with the dealership -- which may or may not bleed over into the brand.

My experience with the BMW dealership, noted earlier, is real and true but I posted it because I felt, like our host, apparently, that ONE dealer (reported here) does not exactly represent the BRAND universally.

I have dealt with, at most, 10 dealerships. Most of them are, these days, pretty savvy and subtle when it comes to customer relations. Since I have only bought from 2 dealerships over the past two decades, I sure am NOT a great representative sample.

My wife and I have shopped at a bunch of dealers -- even the old crusty dealer facility in a small town outside of Wierton WVA was "pleasant" and apparently aware of the times, even though his dealership appeared to be right out of the 60's (the 1860's!!!)

Heck, maybe (and I am saying this for effect) I keep going back to the same dealership and the same sales guy 'cause its better to keep close to the devil you know rather than the devil you don't know.

I am kidding, but there could be some truth to the phrase, people do business with people they like and in the absence of that trait, people often do business with people they know and then when all those they like and know are no more, they do business with strangers.

The first time I met the Infiniti salesperson, I assumed he was not there to help me get what "I" wanted -- I hope this is the case, but, OF COURSE, I was wrong. Even though I ended up cancelling the order, I would not hesitate to buy from him and indeed have been back several times to take prospects to him and he is always gracious and gregarious to both his prospect and to me.

I'll tell you a sort of secret. My Audi sales guy has to be NORTH of 70 years old. I am 55.

I keep hoping he holds out until he is at least 85 cause I'd like to have his gig when I'm, oh, about 67.

There are some youngsters at the dealership and they are good folks too (in their late 20's, mostly with graduate school degrees and several of them speak at least two languages fluently.) I just can't wait for them to age, however. :surprise:

When I grew up it was insurance and car salespeople who were the scourge of the earth -- from where I sit, many of them have pretty sweet gigs anymore. And, they are no longer thought of poorly, rather many seem to be pillars of the community.

Sign me up when I get older, in fact (uh selling cars, not insurance, to be clear.) :shades:

reality2 · June 2006

Of course Audi has arrived. Get you stats right before being rude. First of all, the Audi A6 is the top selling premium luxury vehicle in the world yet alone Europe. The A8 is always competing for either 1st or 2nd spot in top European sales in its class. The 8 and 12 cylinder A8s outsell their respective 8 and 12 cylinder competitors from BMW and MB combined in Europe. Audi sells half the models of its Tier 1 competitors and yet it will average around 900,000 vehicles this year. Last time I checked MB and BMW sell tons of their "lower" priced cars as well such as the 1-Series or the A-Class just as much Audi sells A3s and A4s. That is an irrelevent and mute point. Majority of BMW sales are the 3-Series anyway. So, don't try to "lower" Audi by the last ignorant comment. Whether you heard the saying or not is not my problem. Sales numbers are not everything and I am quite sure the Germans are not stupid. That is quite arrognant as if Americans had any real taste in automobiles to begin with.

sfcharlie · June 2006

One of the better researched concepts in psychology ... if you viscerally desire something or already have chosen it, for example, you'll fight to fend off contradictory ideas, opinions, even facts.

I don't own an Audi, but find them aesthetically exciting (exterior and interior) and very enjoyable to drive. There are obviously people who would say the say thing about other cars, whether they have bought them or not (I've never had the money to own every car I'd love to drive).

Skimming this forum and forums devoted to specific brands, there seems to be as much or more heat generated with regard to Audi than any other brand. If cognitive dissonance is contributing to the heat, I wonder if it might be because Audi is unique in evoking in so many of us a sense of the possibility of the "perfect" LPS, but, of course, falls short of fulfilling the fantasy. That exact situation is known to bring out, on one hand, highly protective-defensive feelings, and, on the other hand, very hateful feelings.

kyfdx · June 2006

One of the better researched concepts in psychology ... if you viscerally desire something or already have chosen it, for example, you'll fight to fend off contradictory ideas, opinions, even facts.

Terry in RWTIV calls it the Rule of 21s..

You ask 21 people the same question, until you get the answer you want to hear...

sfcharlie · June 2006

kyfdx ... That got me smiling too. Great translation of jargon into something to which we can all relate. Reminds me of that from The Big Chill: "Have you ever gone a week without a good rationalization?" ... Charlie

docnukem · June 2006

there seems to be as much or more heat generated with regard to Audi than any other brand

Hmmm....I would have thought that MB and Lexus were the two biggies involved with such cognitive dissonance.

sfcharlie · June 2006

Point well taken ... my impression (nothing more substantial than that) is MB and Lexus give the sense of aiming for only "refined perfection" (keeping us perfectly insulated from the fact that we're in a small moving machine, not a luxury hotel suite), while Audi, somehow, appears to striving for that elusive combined (or balanced) "perfection" which is both "wow, what a great drive/ride" and "I'm in a the moving lap of luxury."

erfan · June 2006

Hi guys,

You all look pretty knowledgeable about these cars and so I have a question. I want to buy a sedan in the upto 50k range. These are some of the things I absolutely want: 1. Reliability for atleast the next 5 years, do not want to see the dealership for ANYthing except routine maintenance 2. It should not be a smog producer, even if it is 8 cylinder 3. Should be able to drive in Northeast Ohio in January, AWD would be preferable 4. smooth ride,insulated cabin, no unneccessay road noise 5. Don't care much for fancy gadgetry 6. Best value for money.

The one that keeps popping up in my mind, talk of cognitive dissonance, is the Acura RL. Lets see what the next 21 people tell me, then I'll go buy the RL.

Thanks.

docnukem · June 2006

I just talked to 21 people:

4 said BMW 530xi
4 said Lexus GS 300 AWD
4 said Audi A6 quattro
4 said Acura RL
5 said Infiniti M35x

I guess the M wins....Okay, I really just guessed on the first twenty people and then threw my 2 cents in the mix.

Really, though, if you like the RL, you should buy it assuming they have fixed the initial electrical hiccups. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. The only concern I have is the 5 year plan thing. That might knock out the Audi and BMW. Of course, any car can have problems out of warranty just as any can be perfect for many years. The odds are just better with some of them, though.

Things to consider:
1) Reliability: GS300, M35x, and maybe RL (hiccups again)
2) AWD: All of the above have it, the implementations vary.
3) Fancy gadgetry: The RL is the only one that comes fully loaded all the time; the others will let you pick and choose. Personally, I feel the Infiniti probably has the most when it is fully loaded.
4) Smog producer: Well, the Infiniti gets the worst mileage.
5) Best value: Most might say the M35x, but there are probably great deals (i.e. discounts) on the RL.

erfan · June 2006

That was a fast response, thankyou. I am told that the German cars lag behind when it comes to reliability, whether within the 3 year lease period or longer. Their tags also are said to quickly add up when you throw in any extras which can be had for much less on the Japanese models. Infiniti is not said to be very quiet or low emission, though it seems to really drive well. The 5 year thing I am not too sure about. I can also lease for 3 or 4 years as long as I am allowed 15k miles a year.

I am really trying to decide about a car and then just shop for it online. I am not too keen on test driving any of them, if I can avoid it.

garyh1 · June 2006

I am really trying to decide about a car and then just shop for it online. I am not too keen on test driving any of them, if I can avoid it.

Wow, that's probably the most surprising statement I have ever read on any of these boards - and that's going some!

These cars do not all drive the same; you are potentially setting yourself up for a real disappointment if you don't drive any car you are considering before buying it. For one example, just because some folks think the M35x is a little too loud doesn't mean you would have the same reaction. Some of these models ride harsher than others; whether any one of them is the right combination of control vs. softness for you is something you can only determine by driving. What if you bought the RL and found the seat couldn't be adjusted to feel comfortable for you?

Please tell us that you were just kidding! :confuse:

erfan · June 2006

Here's my dilemma. I can't find much wrong with a new car. I am usually happy with it for a good few months before I start noticing the faults. I test drove a new Mustang GT a few times, bought it and the sold it for several grand less 5 months later. Bought an Accord V6 EX online, w/o a test drive, found nothing wrong with it until I started to feel the road noise was too much, the ride was not the smoothest and hitting the brakes at anything above 60mph made the car jitter. I did not notice any of these problems for several months. Drove a VW Touareg for 24 hours and loved it. People in these forums degrade the T'reg up and down. How would I be able to tell what these "luxury cars" have wrong with them by driving them for 20 minutes.

To tell you the truth, I was just kidding when I said I won't test drive the car I want. But knowing myself and my cognitive dissonance, I would not find anything wrong with the car I have made up my mind to buy. You may advise me not to hit the dealership with my mind already set on something. My response would be that there's no way I can test drive so many different cars and tell the difference.

lexusguy · June 2006

If those items are ranked in order of importance, I would probably suggest the GS300 AWD. It is less likely to give you trouble than any other car in the segment. If you don't care much for fancy gadgetry, why do you want the RL? It's the one that forces to buy all those fancy gadgets that are optional on the other cars. Why pay for them if you dont want them? Without much if any options, the GS may come in less than the RL.

The data that is currently available shows that the RL is fairly riddled with electrical problems. Read Car and Driver's long term test of their RL, they were back to the dealer eight times to fix often the same electrical problem. If reliability means more to you than anything else, the Acura is probably not your best bet.

sfcharlie · June 2006

I agree with "erfan". The test driving itself is both fun and a critical variable in the final-decision equation. For example, living in the San Francisco area and never driving in anything worse than rain, I ended up liking the way the lighter weight and better balanced (front/rear) M35 felt, compared to the M35x. I wouldn't have known that from anything I had read. However, I do understand the relief of not dealing with the uncomfortable feelings many of us have when confronted with salespeople doing their job.

I started out feeling the way you do and completely reversed my position. At this level of car, if you don't feel some sense of excited anticipation walking to the car and some sense of visceral pleasure driving it -- whether it's high speed road-gripping turns or whether it's that you like sitting in it -- why bother?

How to predict that you will feel that way when you drive the car everyday is another matter. I have come to think that it partly depends on you past experience with yourself. How good do you think you are at predicting what you'll like and won't like? If your sense of yourself is that you've been able to do that, in different decision-making situations, without any direct sampling, then maybe you're the rare one who can predict their own satisfaction with a car ust by reading about them.

swedishiron1 · June 2006

Volvo S60R will probably out slalom everyone of those cars listed and arguebly has a nicer interior - the special trim in the R model is often mentioned in the same breath with the likes of Aston Marton - the leather is beautiful. And the car is available with either a 6 speed manual or a 6 speed automatic. When the V70R wagon was released in '04 it could out slalom the same model year Corvette.

kyfdx · June 2006

If you don't want to see the dealer except for routine maintenance, and you want a plush isolated ride, with AWD... then, I'd have to go with the RL or the GS300...

Really, there are a lot of other cars that I would prefer, but given your stated preferences, I think those would be the best ones..

I think the RL has a lot more power, though, if that is important to you..

The big advantage? Both models are selling way below MSRP, right now...

rich545 · June 2006

I'm being rude? You made the comment that Americans look stupid to the rest of the world for their car buying habits. Read the last sentence in your last post. Think that might be kind of rude as well? What I said was that if Germans did say what you said they did it makes them SOUND stupid. I'm quite sure that like any country (including America) there are brilliant Germans, stupid Germans and every level of intelligence in between. You also didn't say Audi had "arrived" you said the people that drive them had somehow "arrived" more so than drivers of MB and BMW which makes no sense whatsoever.I get it, you love Audi so it makes you feel better to bash its competing brands. If you feel comfortable generalizing the people that drive MB, Audi and BMW well, I would say that's arrogance and ignorance. As far as the A8 and A6 selling in Europe, all I can tell you is what I actually saw in Spain (the most recent country in Europe I visited). I saw no A8's, no A6's, some A4's and a whole lot of A3's. Many more A3's in fact than 1-Series BMW's by a huge margin. I wasn't saying that this somehow "lowered" Audi. The A3 is a good car. We were all just trying to figure out why overall sales figures for Audi was a lot closer to MB and BMW in Europe, but not here. If you can't contribute anything other than "it's because American's have no real taste in automobiles" I would suggest you refrain from commenting at all. Oh, and if you're thinking I'm somehow anti-Audi take a look a my profile. My wife owns the A6 Avant, and I actually convinced her to test drive it in the first place (she had 3 MB before it). I also almost traded in my 545i for the A6 as well at the time.

anthonyp · June 2006

Ae you a two Audi car family? Tony

lexusguy · June 2006

I think the RL has a lot more power, though, if that is important to you..

Not really. While it still has 290hp in 2006 SAE spec, the problem is torque is only 256ft.lbs, and in the usual Honda way, you dont see any of that until the engine is above 4,000 revs. From what I remember, the RL is not much if any faster than the GS300.

kyfdx · June 2006

From Edmunds.com...

GS300 AWD... 245hp, 230 ft/lbs torque.. 3759 lbs..

RL.. 290hp, 256 ft/lbs torque... 4012 lbs..

From Car and Driver..

GS300 AWD.. 0-60 6.8 seconds..

RL.. 0-60 6.3 seconds..

That's all I'm saying...

lexusguy · June 2006

You have to take brake-torquing into account on those numbers, though. Hard launching the RL is going to make up for a lot of its lack of torque at low revs. In the real world, the differences between the two are going to be much smaller. Edmunds own test results have the RL at 7.4 vs. 7.7 for the GS. Thats just not enough of a difference that the average person will notice.

Combine that with the GS's longer warranty and vastly superior 1st year reliability, and I think the GS makes a lot more sense.

quemfala · June 2006

Luxury vehicle???? Maybe BMW HAS figured it out! When a manufacturer can sell it's entry level vehicle (3 series) at such a ridiculous price that buyers perceive it as "luxury", then they've done what they set out to do and "scammed" us again! I'll take a bit more room with my "luxury", thank you!

markcincinnati · June 2006

Perhaps a contrarian view:

Get an MB (or Audi) product.

Get it with both AWD and a diesel powerplant.

As the warranty period nears term, if you actually plan to keep the car beyond the warranty (in miles or years) CPO the car.

The MB diesels are quick, quiet, clean, efficient and generally reliable -- and the cars they inhabit are built like safes. Audi diesels, too, have excellent durability and reliability going for them and their cars are well made.

The issue may be the price, but the lease may surprise you and the street price or TCO may (I said MAY) not be as bad as you have heard.

Otherwise the discounted Acura RL or Lexus GS/AWD version certainly have the reputations for reliability that you have placed at number 1.

Try, at least, the MB diesel just for kicks.

:surprise:

Now, the above comments assume you can wait for the promised TDI (USA certified) AWD versions which have been announced or pre-announced as "coming soon."

rich545 · June 2006

No. A one Cayenne S, one A6 Avant family!

sfcharlie · June 2006

Mark ... I agree ... they were successful with me ... prior to the 2004 325i, I had a 1999 Passat. I think it was the first car I had with leather seats ... I easily slipped into "all BMWs are luxury cars" ... it took almost a year for me to let it into "my thick skull" (as my father would have said) that this was an updated version of the 2002 a neighbor in Colorado still owned in the mid 1970s. Rather Spartan. Neat. Simple. No luxury anywhere really ... always asking people in the back seat if they needed me to move my seat forward.

I think that experience was one reason I was so wowed by both the M35 and the A6.

erfan · June 2006

Thankyou all who gave their valuable opinion. I test drove the RL and TL today. Chose an Acura dealer for service for my Accord and took the two cars for a ride one after the other. The RL was plush and quiet, but seemed just a little sluggish. The TL was peppy but did not cancel out the road noise to my liking. Maybe I'll test the GS 300, IS 350 and M35 and 45, the 530xi, the E350....or maybe I'll just sit on it for a while and keep reading the postings in this forum.....!

quemfala · June 2006

I've had a similar opinion for years. People quote Consumer Reports surveys, Detroit drools over the J.D. Powers survey, and they're all based upon owner responses. Now, I've been in discussions with other guys (women, also) who support the wisdom of their purchases, regardless of the number of trips to the shop. It's the "ego" factor. No one wants to look like a dunce or an idiot for spending a lot of long green on an unreliable vehicle. So, they all say the car is "wonderful"! Even when faced with verifiable statistics that there might be a serious problem, their car just never has "that" problem.

You are absolutely correct, until the "real" numbers become available (probably never), all of the surveys are simply -- interesting!!!

But, one thing never changes -- Life is Better at the Beach!

quemfala · June 2006

My experience, never, and I mean NEVER, own a car out of warranty. Then, be sure that the warranty provides you with equal transportation in the event the car needs to be in the shop. 5 years is not a long time to own a car. Normally, that's about the length of time that we have ours; 4 to 5 years, and 80 to 90 K miles. We currently own 2 vehicles, both with extended warranties. Paying for service on a car, especially a BMW, Mercedes, Audi -- would drive me to the poor house!

Many articles will tell you that it's not worth the cost of the extended warranty. Again, in my humble opinion, that's just not so! Figure it out; hourly rates, cost of parts, etc., etc. Peace of mind is worth something, as well. Anyway, good-luck! I don't think there is anything mechanical that might not break down.

hpowders · June 2006

I have had 3 BMW's since 1993.
No problems at all.
My 3 BMW's have indeed been wonderful.
I have never been asked to participate in any JD Power surveys.
I am far from alone in having trouble-free experiences.
You can believe what you want to believe.
Those surveys are a crock,IMO.
If BMW's had such terrible problems, why are sales going throught the roof?
People aren't stupid.
That's why they wouldn't touch Audis.

markcincinnati · June 2006

You are correct -- keeping any one of the LPS cars out of warranty is a risk. Keeping the German ones out of warranty would be, however, a way for y'all to understand the meaning of the words "breathtakinly expensive."

cdnpinhead · June 2006

While cross-posting is discouraged, allow me to repeat the following, having to do with why Consumers Report data doesn't appear to correlate with what is often read on Edmunds boards:

I think it's important to consider the source of CR "data." Those who categorize cars the same way as CR does its core competencies (appliances & house paint) are generally NOT (that would be NOT) automobile enthusiasts.

I'll tolerate CR's appliance & paint ratings (we do subscribe), but have always (well, for the last 40 years) taken their opinions of things like audio equipment, cameras & other products for which professionals & enthusaists wouldn't be caught dead using the "check rated" item with well more than a grain of salt.

Here's a question CR might ask: How do you routinely transport yourself? a) walk, b) bicycle, c) mass transit, d) evil resource-sucking, carbon-dioxide-producing, non-recyclable-product-containing, single-person-carrying selfish product? If you're so bold as to choose d), then you'd by-god better be driving a Prius or Corolla -- Civics are OK, I think.

CR probably still makes a fortune selling their invoice pricing data (though I'd bet a lot less than they did before the internet), "how to buy a car" & "how not to get screwed" stuff to the car-buying (computer-averse) masses, so they've decided to nod now and again to the enthusiast or otherwise irresponsible car-driving masses.

However, their core supporters buy most things just as they'd buy appliances & house paint -- the truly anal also endure the half-hour or more it takes to fill out the annual survey book & don't (IMNHO) represent anyone who has passion about anything on earth but saving money in a PC fashion -- this cohort values green efficiency above all else.

Some of us are at the other end of that scale, where cars are concerned.

That's what I posted elsewhere, and to your "Life is Better at the Beach," I'd respond, Life is often better in the mountains.

Enjoy that beach.

lexusguy · June 2006

The RL was plush and quiet, but seemed just a little sluggish. The TL was peppy but did not cancel out the road noise to my liking. Maybe I'll test the GS 300, IS 350 and M35 and 45, the 530xi, the E350....or maybe I'll just sit on it for a while and keep reading the postings in this forum.....!

I got a similar impression driving the RL. It doesn't accelerate, especially from a standstill, nearly as fast as its 290hp would suggest.

Couple of comments to make about your other choices. If you're interested in something faster than the RL, the GS300 AWD is probably not going to satisfy you. Weren't you looking for an AWD car? The IS350 and M45 are both RWD only. The IS250 AWD is pretty slow, and its also a very small car.. I'm not sure how important rear seat room is to you, but the IS basically doesn't have any.

If you're genuinely interested in an entry-lux car like the TL or IS, a G35x could be a good choice. It actually has room for adults in the back, and with the new G about to hit, I'm sure you could get a very sweet deal on an '06. Then of course there's always the 330xi, A4 3.2, and C-class 4matic to consider.

erfan · June 2006

Back seat room is important to me. I wonder if you have any experience driving a RWD in one of the northern states in winter. My house has a slight uphill drive which can be a little treacherous with snow for the FWD Accord. I do not like the G35's shape and if a new model is about to hit the market, I would rather wait. Don't you think the 330 and A4 have the same backseat problem as the IS?

markcincinnati · June 2006

The 5x's and A6q's have better back seats -- especially of the two the A6. The M35X, too has a real back seat.

The new Gx from Infiniti if it follows the trend, will be either bigger or better packaged -- or both. Knowing Infiniti it will have AT LEAST the 280HP engine, which I can attest is quite potent.

Mercedes upcoming turbo diesel 4Matics (if you indeed can wait) still would be right up there, at least for evaluation purposes.

I don't know a lot of folks with Mercedes -- the ones I do have the diesel versions and some of them are well beyond 150,000 miles with little more than routine servicing.

The Energy act of 2005 provides the buyers of one of these clean diesels with a tax credit similar to the hybrid's too.

If you can wait.

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