Luxury Performance Sedans

lemmer · February 2005

You guys take this very seriously. Do you have "I would rather push a Mercedes than drive an Acura" bumperstickers? Do you have little stickers of Calvin peeing on the makes you dislike? I figure this forum is made up of teenage boys acting like adults and middle aged men who are (and always will be) driving the fifteen year old Chevy Corsicas of the world, but consider themselves in the luxury performance market.

Do lawyers, doctors, executives, and their ilk have the time to endlessly debate the minutiae of the luxury car market? I doubt it. Do they care what internet folk think? I really doubt it.

BMWs are the ultimate driving machines. There is no better value than an Acura. Lexus is the world leader in quality. Mercedes is the pinnacle in snob appeal. Infiniti is coming on strong in many of these areas, but isn't at the top of any area yet.

That should settle it, I think.

kyfdx · February 2005

Well... thats it then...

Thanks a lot, lemmer.. Now, I can finish that bowel re-section that I have left prepped on the table for the last two hours....

lemmer · February 2005

I didn't mean you. I kind of figured you were a guy like me working his way up through the car world. I have time to talk about this stuff. My boss with his fancy X5 4.4 does not. If I worked hard as he does, I wouldn't either.

In college I drove a 260Z that left a huge cloud of white smoke in its wake. It had been walloped so hard on the driver's side that after it was fixed, it still felt like you had the window half way down all of the time.

I don't know if you can have that kind of experience and later in life argue vehemently that an RL and a GS300 are not in the same class of luxury.

Also, if these dudes think the average Joe knows which one is better than the other, and thus will give out great respect based on the purchase, they had better think again.

designman · February 2005

LMAO. Every once in a while it gets good around here.

kyfdx · February 2005

yeah.. I was only kidding... And, my Calvin pees on anything Korean...

lexusguy · February 2005

Come to think of it, Marketing has been complaining that they havent been able to access the SAN for about the last 3 weeks or so. Maybe I should stop all this bickering and get on that.

lemmer · February 2005

I sheepishly retract my previous commentary except, of course, the summary of the makes.

I am a CPA in the midst of tax season. I read these boards for a little pleasant diversion between clients, but the bickering here pushed me over the edge.

Feel free to continue disparaging the passenger armrest materials on the new Infiniti (between surgeries, if possible).

liferules · February 2005

Ckelley14,

Remember that all of the cars you listed are brand new model years. Thus, they all will be more inclined to have their share of problems than late-model year cars. Whichever car you choose, be sure to have a dealership nearby.

Best wishes.

(Now back to riding my bicycle around the neighborhood and peeing on the neighbor's cars...)

jjacura · February 2005

It was about time someone lightened up this forum. Peace...V...

merc1 · February 2005

"Merc...I can appreciate Footie's posts. Sometimes your "spin" aggravates."

To each his own. I haven't spun anything.

M

wannabgood1 · February 2005

FYI, two different dealers told me in past week you wont be able to get Mark Levinson w the GS300. Only available on GS430.

lexusguy · February 2005

Once, long ago, I used to drive a Benz SEL, before Lexus even existed. It was used, my first ever new car was a '96 LS400. I dont think at least in those days that Mercedes was ultimate snob appeal. Maybe it was, though I thought BMW was more snobby. In terms of build quality though it was the best you could get. It was the 80s, Japan was still making today's Korean cars, (an Accord was a compact) and most of the cars in the world really stunk. My SEL was still in the shop A LOT though. Not like my good friend's XJ6, which literally never LEFT the service department, but it spent plenty of time there.

Jag has improved by 10000% since those days (well at least as far as reliability is concerned). But it seems like Mercedes still spend a lot of time in the shop. Oh, and Japan makes the best cars in the world now, I think I forgot to mention that part.

rich545 · February 2005

Lemmer-I know you already apologized for your post, but really, why would you generalize so much anyway? I'm 35, work in financial software (not as a programmer) and I drive an '04 BMW 545i. I post fairly regularly on the message boards on Edmunds just because cars are of interest to me. People make time for things they are interested in. I'm sure your boss makes times for non-work interests (at least I hope he does). "Internet folk" at this point represent just about every age group, income level and profession so saying we don't care about "what internet folks think" is saying we don't care about what anyone thinks. Is the opinion of someone that is computer illiterate somehow more legitimate than that of someone who does know how to use computers and the internet? Sorry, but I just hate when people generalize because it shows ignorance rather than wisdom most of the time.

pat · February 2005

What we need to be doing is talking about the cars and not each other, okay folks?

gabman · February 2005

rich 545,

Very well put, the post that I wrote (but deleted)

was not as gentle as yours.

But on to the matters of cars. I was about to sign for an Infiniti M35x however a deal has come up on a brand new 2004 BMW 545i.

Can you let me know your experience with this car as well as your likes and dislikes about it.

Also, are you in a winter climate and if so how does it handle in snow? Thanks

lexusguy · February 2005

Get the Infiniti. I have two rear drive cars with lots of horsepower, and neither can handle itself well in the snow, and I live in southern PA. We dont get canadian snow. The Jag is simply un-drivable. The LS with Bridgestone Blizzaks is tolerable, but if theres more than a few inches, I have to take my wife's RX300 to work. Also, I hear extreme cold can make iDrive freeze up, which renders the car unusable. (At least thats what CR said).

kyfdx · February 2005

Awww.. its okay.. we still love you..

Besides.. I got to knock the dust off a couple of old jokes...

lemmer · February 2005

Sorry guys,

I was just having a little fun tweaking you people. I am a midlevel professional who has owned multiple luxury makes who obviously writes posts on internet boards, so I disprove my own contention.

Some of you guys do take these comparisons a little too seriously, but I realize I deserve any nasty responses to my post. In fact, I would love to hear Gabman's deleted response. It sounds really juicy.

rich545 · February 2005

My experience so far with my 545 has been great. I do live in a cold environment (Chicago suburbs), and I have winter tires for it. I had an AWD 330xi before it, and with the snow tires it drives just as well. Without them I'm sure it would be a different story. I got my winter wheels and tires (Blizzaks) from tirerack.com which proved to be very affordable ($1100 for everything). My complaints would be the amount of time it takes for software updates at the dealer (it takes all day), the lack of a change holder (sounds trivial, but it's annoying not to have one) and the fact that the memory for the driver's settings seems to forget where the steering wheel was (it moves up when you get out of the car). I love how it handles, accelerates and though I didn't love how it looks initially I love it now. I know people have problems with the new design, but honestly I have yet to take the car to the carwash without someone telling me how great it looks (and I honestly am not looking for compliments on it). The iDrive has gotten bashed on repeatedly, but I find it easy to use and I haven't experienced it freezing up on me on cold days. The processor it uses could be faster, but that's my only real complaint with it. Mostly you just set everything up and you barely have to use it after that. Also, if it were to freeze up it would not render the car undrivable. iDrive does not control vital functions of the car. I've never been big on Japanese cars though I respect the reliability. I just find the drive rather generic in comparison to German cars (again, just my opinion).

Sylvia · February 2005

A reporter would like to interview someone who recently bought a large sedan such as a Mercedes E-Class, Lexus LS 430, Mercury Crown Victoria or any large Cadillac or Lincoln.

Please send your daytime contact info to jfallon@edmunds.com by Friday, February 11, 2005.

lexusguy · February 2005

"iDrive does not control vital functions of the car."

Is it different in the 5? I've heard from owners of 745s that the iDrive can fail and lock the ignition.

rich545 · February 2005

There are definitely differences between iDrive in the 7 and 5. The 5's iDrive is apparentely much less confusing for one. Having said that, I guess I really shouldn't say iDrive failing wouldn't lock the ignition because I don't know for sure. I just don't see why it would given that you can't control anything with relation to the ignition with iDrive (at least in the 5). I could be wrong about that though if there is something behind the scenes that I don't know about. As I said though, my iDrive has never frozen and I've had the car since July, and it ain't exactly toasty in Chicago right now. For the most part, iDrive is just used to set up climate controls, seat heating, the stereo, NAV, communication in the form of BMW Assist and integrated phone, and trip computers. A good deal of this can be adjusted without using iDrive as well through voice commands, the buttons on the steering wheel and the heating/AC controls on the dash.

fbrownlo · February 2005

I see a degree of conventional thinking here. I'm presently going through hell with a Toyota '03 3.0L V6 in an Avalon (my wife's car) with sludge problems, and virtually no help or interest from the dealership. My own dearly loved car is a Riviera, '97, one heck of a vehicle: lovely to look at & a joy to drive. So I checked out the Buick Lacrosse in its top-of-the-line version, and liked it a lot--in fact the only thing I don't like is the strip of chrome across the dash. Handles very nicely, sits firm & square to the road--& I know, if I get one, I've got total reliability & superb, friendly service. There's a lot of baloney talked about cars in this country. In a longish life I've driven a lot of them, and I have to say that in a list including jaguars, MGs, Mercedes, and Toyota, a couple of my Buicks come out top.

jmatthe · February 2005

what year 454i do you have?

jmatthe · February 2005

Sorry 545 of course....

merc1 · February 2005

" Oh, and Japan makes the best cars in the world now, I think I forgot to mention that part."

Thats a pretty tall statement. They surely are the most reliable as a group no doubt, but at other things...nope. Japanese cars as whole still don't look, drive, feel or perform as good as European cars as a whole. In all fairness Japan really doesn't have any competition for makes like Ferrari, Aston-Martin or Porsche, just a sports car here and there, but no brand or lineup from one maker to compete. Japanese are the most reliable and highest quality as a whole, but the other "car" aspects they continue to lag a good ways, especially if one isn't concerned with price. Where do American cars fit in? Hmmmmm.... lets see....

M

rich545 · February 2005

2004.

jjacura · February 2005

Merc...where would you put the Corvette C6 (Nominated for World Car of the Year award) in this mix?

lexusguy · February 2005

Things tend to work in a Buick because they generally get the oldest of the old that GM still has in service when it comes to platforms and engines. That "all-new" Lacrosse rides on a 20 year old platform with an engine at least as old as that. When you've been building something that long, chances are you've gotten all the bugs worked out. To say that the car beats things like Mercedes and Toyotas is just funny.

I'm sorry your having the sludge issue, but as I've said before, several other automakers have had similar problems. Toyota is not alone on that, and they have since revised their oil change policy. I've got that same 3.0L in my wife's RX, and it works like clock work. Enjoy your buick residuals.

lexusguy · February 2005

Wow, quite a different read than their GS first drive. The GS seemed to read "these cars are neat", while Edmunds gushed praise for the M's rev-matching, throttle bliping manumatic, calling car companies that dont have one "losers", and beautifully weighted steering. I think I already know the winner of Edmunds comparison test of these cars, and the 545 will not be it.

steven9179 · February 2005

the BMW is a great car and fun to drive; however, I must admit I also believe the AWD is mandatory. It's a no brainer IMO

carnaught · February 2005

"...I have yet to take the car to the carwash without someone telling me how great it looks...."

You have a 545i and take the car to the carwash? Ah......................hhhh..!!!!

(There, now I feel better.)

footie · February 2005

Ah, Merc1

I believe that the market share shift that is going on between European marques and Japanese marques is permanent.

To say that the Japanese marques "as whole still don't look, drive, feel or perform as good as European cars as a whole" is very, very personal, IMHO.

I certainly feel that the Japanese modern, innovative styling, is far superior to the copycat, Ford Taurus, glizmobile styling in the MB lines, the ugly duck butt styling at BMW and the "we never change" except to make the grill weird styling at Audi.

'Feeling' is too personal to broadly assign mastery to the Europeans - saying that what one group of drivers likes is the best, is baloney. That's why Cadillac sells more cars than MB in the U.S.

'Performance' is equally irrelevant at the microscopic level that tends to get bandied about here. Sure V6's are faster and more 'responsive' in most cases than 4 bangers but not always: the same is true for V8s and sixes of all configurations.

'Performance' is what you can use in the situations you usually encounter. If 0-60 in 4.2 seconds makes a big difference in your life, then being a junior writer at Car and Driver's road test center is great. But if you are 99% of the car driving public, it's totally irrelevant.

Some performance could matter thought - maybe 30 to 60. But is that reported? Nah, it's more fun to talk about ticket-getting, nobody cares 0 - 60 times.

How dumb is this. Pretty dumb. It's called 'argument framing'.

One can always read George Lakoff's "Don't think of an Elephant".

syswei · February 2005

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=8081&sid=18- 3&n=157

jjacura · February 2005

I found your post to be thought provoking, Then I read it again...hmmmmmm. Yeah...Don't think of an Elephant...KNOW YOUR VALUES AND FRAME THE DEBATE!

lexusguy · February 2005

Ok when I said best, I sort of meant from a build quality stand point. Everything that Japan makes, from cars to cameras, are standard of the world when it comes to build precision. The phrase "made in Japan" is quite different than it was 30 or 40 years ago. The Lexus SC430 is literally a rolling text book on how to build a car to bank vault tolerance. I just wish they spent some time on making it fun to drive.. or look at.

designman · February 2005

'The Lexus SC430 is literally a rolling text book on how to build a car to bank vault tolerance. I just wish they spent some time on making it fun to drive.

For under $63K I can think of at leat 10 Japanese or German cars that are more fun to drive. But you have to come back from Guyana and stop drinking the Lexus Kool-Aid.

merc1 · February 2005

"Merc...where would you put the Corvette C6 (Nominated for World Car of the Year award) in this mix?"

I personally love the new Corvette. Looks, power, better build and a realistic price. Nothing bad to say about the Corvette in my book.

M

merc1 · February 2005

Just come out and say that you hate European cars. Thats the only way any of that will make sense to anyone.

M

lexusguy · February 2005

I know everybody in this country just gushes love for the Corvette, but I dont like the car. Granted its a much better value than the XLR, but the interior, while better, is still cheesy, the stick cant come within a country mile of a Porsche manual, (and it STILL does the skip shift that EVERYONE hates) and that off-the-shelf Malibu steering wheel is just horrid. Its never been able to match a C4S, and it still cant.

kyfdx · February 2005

Yeah.. I agree with all that.. but..

Most Vette buyers are coming from other domestic cars.. They are used to cheap, crappy interiors.. They'll never notice..;-)

jjacura · February 2005

When I was a kid and the first Corvette rolled into town I wanted one. When I came back from serving uncle Sam in '65 I spent the summer riding in one owned by a buddy. Then I got married and the whole Corvette thing went away. I don't believe I've looked at the interior for years but when you see one on the road...you have to look.

kyfdx · February 2005

I like them... Would I buy one, if I were spending $50K on a car? No way... I'll take a stripped Boxster any day.. Or an '00 911...

I can dream, can't I?

lexusguy · February 2005

In the 60's, Corvettes actually had nice interiors. As with most other cars, it went down hill in the '70s, and hit absolute rock bottom in the '80s. The digital dash vettes are one of the ugliest interiors ever in a car.

footie · February 2005

I don't hate them, Merc. They just are increasingly irrelevant in the U.S. market - and will suffer the same fate globablly, IMHO.

I what I hate here, is all of the canned 'framing' arguments that the sales-oriented posters use that babble on about the value of heritage or the foundation patents, or the 0-60 times, none of which applies to 99.99% of driver's day-to-day experiences or to what's being produced any more.

I hate the baloney. It's rancid. And as long as the conversations here are largely corporate marketing drivel, I'll continue to sound off in my standard way.

But hey, if MB starts making cars that offer better owneship value than Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura, I'd be first in line to applaud them. But my expectations are that I won't even have to snap my fingers, much less clap. The issue is process technology. "How" to make them is more important now than "what" you make, becuase if you lead in the "how", you can lead the "what". Look at Intel.

None of the Geman car companies know how to design AND build a modern luxury car anymore. It's true across Europe. There's no substantive automobile industry left in the UK, French makers can't compete here either. Italian makers, excluding custom builders like Ferrari, have been globally irrelevant since about 1985.

It's only a matter of time for VW/Audi. They'd be much better off focusing on China, where perhaps, they'd make up the losses in volume.

liy · February 2005

For Footie, above: look, feel, fit and finish do still count in the car buying experiences of some!

See my post: liy, "Acura RL" #5859, 14 Feb 2005 10:47 pm

LIY

mezeca · February 2005

I couldn't agree more!! Sure, the Japanese cars have it down for "overall" reliability, but I really feel that a lot of people put all their emphasis on that as a sole factor.

I personally find most Japanese cars to be over-engineered(or maybe it's inability) to make a car that has a personality. Japanese cars do everything they are supposed to, but in the process something gets lost in the equation. For some, they will never notice this.

And this is where I feel German cars really excel. They know how to make a car respond the way a car should. There is something there, you can feel it when you drive. I also like the way they sneak cool features in.

I'm addicted to MB's tip start!!

In short, the Germans take second in reliabilty, but first in execution. I just depends which one you favor more.

Oh, and American cars.... the shift knob on the '05 vette looks to be from the Lumina/Malibu/Cavalier parts bin...... nuff said.

jrock65 · February 2005

I dunno about second in reliability, they're more like fourth, after the Japanese, Americans, and Koreans.

merc1 · February 2005

I'm surprised you don't like the Corvette, I really am. The XLR you know is different in purpose, though they used the Corvette as the foundation. The Corvette is just a different experience from a 911, a car which I'm also crazy about. I got to drive the new Vette at the GM Drive this past fall and it was a monster. I agree as do just about every magazine that it won't match the precision and build of a Porsche, but it does cost a lot less too.

footie,

I understand where you're coming from really I do. I think we disagree totally because you don't allow a car to be judged on any other criteria and you're clearly in a minority in that thinking. If everyone looked at cars like you do nobody would buy anything other than Japanese, specifically Toyota and Honda. Because frankly Nissan, Mitsu, Isuzu and others from Japan aren't setting the surveys on fire either.

For you to say that Ferrari, a company that has wiped the floor with Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, BMW and Jaguar in F1 over and over again, a company that sells every single car they build year after year, is irrelevant says a lot. Ferrari is about the most precious brand in the world to the enthusiast. Which is why I can see where you'd think it is irrelevant.

I find that the group that post about sales the most are Toyota fanatics, not European car fans/owners. Reading the High-End board you'd think that a company's balance sheet and sales reports has something do with the way a car drives. I find that to be the most ridiculous thing I've yet read. It's also boring as all getout.

M

lexusguy · February 2005

Its cheaper, but it also feels cheaper, so I guess you get what you pay for. What you dont get is a $50K+ interior. One car I'm very excited about is the first world market GT-R. Its quite odd, considering that there are some 8 cars or so competing for the $50K mid-size luxury sedan class, that not a single car challenges Corvette at its own price level. I'm not talking about a mid-engine Porsche with less than 300hp either. I mean a FE,RWD V-8 powered sports car. Theres absolutely nothing. Hopefully the GT-R will come in and shake up the town a bit.

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