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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well a lot of folks feel like you do about the new generation BMWs, but there seem to be more than enough people out there that like them so BMW is convinced all their radical changes since 2002 were right on the money.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Now Dewey you know I won't walk away from anything, especially this. You currently have the lead by about 7K units, but the facelifted E ships this month so we're going to start eating away at the lead! ;)

    Trust me I wrote that post number down on a sticky!

    I doubt we'll ever get a M3 Touring, such limited sales IMO.

    M
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Well a lot of folks feel like you do about the new generation BMWs, but there seem to be more than enough people out there that like them so BMW is convinced all their radical changes since 2002 were right on the money.

    Yes, I suppose Bangle and Co. might have reached the conclusion that sales prove design choices were correct. However, they ought to give some credit to consistency of great engineering, which might be transcending design changes. And to the fact that BMW production quality has escaped the "Germans can't build reliable cars" cliché that has befallen (or been earned by) Audi and Mercedes.

    My theory is that inventing the concept of the sport sedan + the maintenance of perfect 50/50 balance over the years + the tight steering/handling + being the only German car company to score average or above on CR and JDP surveys of reliability and initial quality = best sales among LPS. In other words, people who can afford LPS cars clearly want a German car and BMW has earned the sales and established the momentum to keep the sales, even when designers did what architects and designers have sometimes done (IMHO), which is forget that the purpose of design is to make a lot of people feel good when they see it, not simply make the designer feel creative and influential. Maybe there are lots of BMW buyers getting turned on by looking at the cars or sitting in them, but my guess is that's not what is selling BMWs.

    What is not selling the Audi lineup might be reports like the one in the current issue of Automobile magazine. The editors drove an A6 for a year. The conclusion: "Beautiful styling, smooth powertrain, good mileage".

    But, and this has got to be a killer to Audi sales, they report 8 trips to the service dept in their 25K miles of driving the car. For many readers, that's the game. Sure, maybe 50 will tune into the Edmunds Audi A6 forum and be reassured they can depend on Audi's great build quality and the anecdotal testimonials of a dozen enthusiastic forum participants. And some readers of the conclusion will stop at"Beautiful styling, smooth powertrain, good mileage" and not care about "abrupt throttle tip-in" (complained about in almost every review of A6 with V6 -- even though, a simple switch to Sport Mode appeared to me to overcome that, it is hardly ever mentioned), "harsh over bumps," and, the killer, "electrical glitches."

    If Audi wants to catch Mercedes and BMW, they have got to do something to overcome their negative press and not rely on the niche of people who want to drive a sport sedan in the snow. BMW knows how -- through both engineering and marketing brilliance -- to keep their place among German sedans.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    My theory is that inventing the concept of the sport sedan + the maintenance of perfect 50/50 + the unique steering/handling + being the only German car company to score average or above on CR and JDP surveys of reliability and initial quality = best sales among LPS. In other words, people who can afford LPS cars clearly want a German car and BMW has earned the sales and established the momentum to keep the sales, even when designers did what architects and designers have soemtimes done (IMHO), which is forget that design is to make a lot of people feel good when they see it. Maybe there are lots of BMW buyers getting turned on by looking at the cars or sitting in them, but my guess is that's not what is selling BMWs.

    I pretty much agree with this. I have read right here a few times that people bought these new Bangle BMWs "despite how they look" etc. because of how they can't find/duplicate the same driving experience elsewhere. So what you're saying is likely true for a lot of buyers, then you add in those that are now attracted to BMWs because of this shift in design and poof(!) BMW posts some major sales gains. So far those who left BMW over the design and idrive haven't made a big impact in sales, but the long term report isn't out yet.

    M
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I read your post, I see and sometimes get to drive the BMW that is parked next to my Audi in our garage and I understand and agree the German's seem to have that feeling behind the wheel that the Japanese and Americans haven't quite figured out.

    Perhaps, too, the Japanese and Americans don't want to create a German feeling car -- I am pretty certain that must not be a tier one goal for Lexus cars.

    Cadillac does seem to want to crack the code, on the other hand.

    But, while sales figures -- the ones we are referring to -- are revealing, they may or may not be as conclusive as we assume or want them to be.

    It appears to me that the BMW 5 series outsells Acura's RL by over 5 to one (using the current figure) and outsells Audi's A6 by at least 3 to one. Here, in the US, that is.

    Audi, BMW and Mercedes sales (in the posting above) are going up -- the other players seem to be going down. Again, at least here in the US.

    GM, for instance, appears to be having a tough row to hoe generally, and I assume this means "everywhere." On the other hand, in interviews with GM execs, they are encouraged (somewhat) by improved sales overseas, particularly in China.

    Audi, too, posted 90+% sales increases in China and one can assume that BMW and Mercedes did well there too.

    The confusing fact, to me, is the disparity of sales between Audi, BMW and Mercedes in the US. Elsewhere, the sales performance is closer, more neck and neck, etc; and, with some frequency Audi is the sales leader. Elsewhere, especially in Europe, Audi sales are not 1/3 of BMW's and, as far as I know also not 3 times BMW's.

    We Americans are probably not unwilling to say "we know better," or "we can discriminate or differentiate" between these LPS cars (as if implying folks elsewhere cannot perhaps?)

    We've hashed this over before, but we have also pointed to sales figures as indicators of "superior" engineering or style or content or fill in the blank.

    I wonder if Audi just sends us "seconds" and we somehow figured that out and we instead buy BMW's and Mercedes because we don't want the European rejects.

    I guess it is possible, but it has to be very unlikely that this is the case. Audi is on a tear worldwide, on its way to selling nearly 900,000 cars -- and even in the US, sales performance just keeps improving. Audi mgmt must be pleased, as one would suspect Audi shareholders are, too.

    What has caused the discrepancy in quantity of cars sold -- in the US? I, for one, am not convinced it is the product, for although I do understand and agree that often the BMW is "the standard bearer," these cars, from what I can tell are far more similar than dissimilar (all of them, not just the Germans.) But I have driven, back to back, an A6 3.2 and a 530xi (autotrans, unfortunately) and they are both great cars -- I would take the 5 with the stick, but if forced to choose among the two both equipped with the auto, the Audi gets my vote.

    As I contemplate my second attempt to jump off the Audi ship next year, perhaps, the only contender this time is the 530xi, unlike last time when the M35X seemed a reasonable approximation of a German sedan but priced -- at that time -- hundreds less per month on a lease.

    The M35X was my "settle for" car at that time, but when Audi began marketing its cars via its leasing arm (aggressively) I came back to the German feel in a heartbeat. There was no 530xi stick or auto at that moment, so that was one temptation, at the time, that I did not have to face.

    Yet, folks here overwhelmingly buy the autotrans versions -- when the BMW in both RWD and AWD is available with a stick. The night and day performance and control offered in the stick and sharply reduced in the auto version is, I find, an anomaly. But, then again, I won't get any of these without the AWD, and lots of folks think that means giving up a big chunk of performance (over a RWD only version, i.e.)

    Elsewhere BMW and Audi (to name two) fight tooth and nail for the "sales penetration" lead. I believe currently Audi is in the lead -- just not here.

    I am not as quick, therefore, to hang my hat on sales = superiority.

    I find it still confusing the disparity is that great. It would seem, to me, more "normal" were the sales leaders, in order BMW, Mercedes and Audi and that they were within 5 or 10% of each other -- not 300%!

    The dealer network here both in quantity and quality must shoulder much of the blame; and, other than Q7 ads, there seems to be little advertising offered up by Audi, but BMW and Mercedes spots are "everywhere." :confuse:
  • quemfalaquemfala Member Posts: 107
    We tried to enact the "move to the right, pass on the left" legislation here in Florida; Jeb Bush and the "O.F's" (old foggies, old f ---t's, whatever) shot it down. I don't know how effective it would have been anyway, since people have totally forgotten how to drive down here.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Couldn't agree more: (1) Audi does little or nothing to excite U.S. car buying hearts -- Q7 being the one vehicle they seem to see a point in highlighting for SUV market that is specific to U.S. (2) Audi appears to be more esteemed by Germans than BMW or Mercedes and, if memory serves me here, they were even rated more reliable in one German version of CR and JDP; (3) U. S. market has been characterized as "least tolerant" of product imperfections -- and, I would add, our sense of what constitutes a product imperfection has been narrowed down to "glitches" rather than also including things like "why doesn't CR downgrade M35 for having worst gas mileage in LPS class?" (4) Audi has been content to sell to snow-belt LPS buyers, but now BMW has x cars and Mercedes has 4-matic and everyone who is worried about driving in snow is as likely to get an SUV/Jeep for that anyway, so "Quattro" marketing uniqueness (it's still unique four-wheel-drive system) has declined; (5) BMW and Mercedes are unquestioned "luxury" cars in collective consciousness; Lexus saw this and went after its niche in that psychological space, while Audi has allowed itself to be seen by many as an upgraded VW with AWD.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I know it's in a slightly different segment (though the Panamera sedan will at least somewhat compete with the 7 Series and S Class), but you forgot about Porsche. It just came in first in both of JD Powers' reliability and initial quality surveys, AND it's the most profitable car company there is. So there is another German marque that has it figured out possibly better than BMW does (it's definitely easier though when you're a much smaller operation). Honestly though, I think Mercedes and Audi are pretty close to BMW (with Audi being a bit closer reliability-wise).
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    As far as stick vs. auto in the US goes, isn't the reason US driver's choose auto over stick most of the time rather obvious? We have way more traffic in our metropolitan areas than Europe does (and more metro areas in general). There is nothing fun or exhilerating about driving a stick car moving 5 MPH in traffic. I love manual transmissions as I've said here before, but I just think that we in the US choose auto because of different driving conditions. Also, auto performance has gotten massively better and much closer to manual. Plus tiptronic allows you to shift albeit without a clutch (which admittedly takes some of the fun out of it).
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Mentioning the Panamera makes me wonder, where will it fit in on Edmuds forums? Will it be here, the HELM forum or somewhere else? I'd guess it will cost over 100K, but so does the 7 and S.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Mentioning the Panamera makes me wonder, where will it fit in on Edmuds forums? Will it be here, the HELM forum or somewhere else? I'd guess it will cost over 100K, but so does the 7 and S.

    It definitely won't be here. Porsche would have to make a midsized, Boxster priced sedan for that to happen. It could end up in the HELM thread though if there's interest in the car, the Maser did.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Well, no, as an obvious follower of CR/JDP type #s (mea culpa), I didn't forget Porsche. I left Porsche out because right now we have no Porsche LPS with a history or with even current owners to provide grist for our praise/gripe mill.

    But, yes, I find it heartening that Porsche was able to rack up those numbers -- whatever they really mean -- since they matter to many shoppers and I want German sedans to thrive and proliferate.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Oh, I thought you meant German cars companies in general. How do you feel about Porsche getting into the LPS arena? Obviously, many people were outraged by the Cayenne, and I'm sure the thought of Porsche making a sedan will prompt somewhat of a similar response though not as bad.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I'd like to see Porsche get into every sedan class as long as it doesn't compromise their sports cars. For one thing, I think they would instantly cut into BMW's 3-series supremacy.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    For a $125k-$175k large Porsche sedan?
    Totally uninterested.
    Wake me up when Porsche comes out with a $50k-$80k compact sports sedan aimed squarely at the 330i.
    Then I will start salivating.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Wake me up when Porsche comes out with a small $50k-$70 sports sedan aimed squarely at the 330i.
    Then I will start salivating.


    The clock is ticking and we will have to wait a few more lifetimes until that happens. Porsche cannot compete at that price range unless an Audi A4 platform is used. A very bad idea in my opinion and hopefully Porsche is shrewd enough to know that. Otherwise Porsche's VW investment could end up being a big waste of Euros .
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I don't know about that.
    Who expected them to come out with a large SUV?
    I'm already practicing starting my car with my left hand.
    You gotta believe!
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    And I'll tell you what, that does take a lot of time to get used to!
  • ew3074ew3074 Member Posts: 20
    Does anybody know if GS is selling strong recently? I love the black GS. What a lovely car
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    For a Porsche compact sports sedan, I'll put up with the inconvenience.
    Just hope it happens within 2 years before I sell my soul for another 3 year stint with something else!
    One thing's for sure-no help from Porsche on a leasing deal like I got on the 545.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I don't know about that.
    Who expected them to come out with a large SUV?
    I'm already practicing starting my car with my left hand.
    You gotta believe!

    That's totally different. A Porsche sports sedan based on a FWD car would be disasterous. Worse even than the FWD Jaguar. The Porsche can't just match the 3 series, it has to be even better, even more balanced, even more pure to drive. An A4 can't do that.
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Where does BMW score higher in reliability than Audi in terms of JD and CR? Lastest JD shows Audi ahead of BMW and Merc, and BMW along with MB are always at the bottom of the CR in terms of reliabitly (The 7-Series being one of the worst). I think it more "perception" than reality. There is no way that BMW or MB build cars that are "better" or of higher quality than Audi. Audi has shown this easily. Many comparos have even shown this. But that is not the point. I think the failure in the American market, unlike other markets, has been Audi's approach to branding and marketing itself properly. You do not see this problem in Europe for example. However, this issue is being addressed quite intensely by AoA if you read any of the interviews with AoA's Vice President. What we are seeing in this market is the start of a new Audi offensive and approach to its HELM status. A company with over 100 years of automtive heritage (even after being disseminated after WWII) with some serious achievements does understand the future. Remember, Audi does NOT have even close the amount of models its main Tier 1 global competitors have, so the sales success world-wide is very strong in comparision. Of course, new models are being released like crazy in the next two years with major revamps of the current ones by 2009 coming.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I didn't say anything about Porsche coming out with a FWD compact sport sedan. Nor did I say anything about the A4.

    I would hope Porsche will come out with a compact sport sedan to "be even better, even more balanced, even more pure to drive" than the 3 series. A RW driver, of course!
    At a super-premium price, of course! :sick:
    I don't salivate over FRD compact "sport" sedans.

    I believe Porsche is in the midst of one of the greatest turn-arounds in automotive history and that could involve aggressively taking on traditional BMW territory.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    "Where does BMW score higher in reliability than Audi in terms of JD and CR?"

    CR Annual Auto issue:

    page 41 -- Audi A6 -- reliability rating "below average"

    page 42 -- BMW 5-Series -- reliability rating "average" + "recommended buy"
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    See, I'm not sure I want Porsche in BMW territory. If they grow too much it may mess up what is a very good company. I don't mind one or two sports sedans, but I hope they stop there.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    With all due respect and without any intention to start anything other than polite discussion, I wonder how much behind the wheel time you have had in recent A4 models, from the entry level 2.0T to the RS4? (I have NOT driven the RS4, in the spirit of full disclosure.)

    The entire Audi line remains nose heavy, but, (and I wonder what their engineers know that seem to allow them to work miracles) driving the A4's (speaking ONLY of them in quattro trim) remains a confidence inspiring and performance gleaning experience.

    I am not suggesting Porsche should use the B7 or even the upcoming B8 platform -- I am just wondering how many miles you have driven in Audis, A4's in particular.

    Underestimating Audis seems, sometimes, to be a lot of folks favorite passtimes -- and often I find those most quick to comment last drove an Audi years and years ago, if ever.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    With all due respect and without any intention to start anything other than polite discussion, I wonder how much behind the wheel time you have had in recent A4 models, from the entry level 2.0T to the RS4? (I have NOT driven the RS4, in the spirit of full disclosure.)

    I've driven the V6 turbo and V8 versions of the S4 (long test drives), as well as the 2.0L diesel, for about a week in Italy. The last gen car was quick, but the ride quality wasn't great. The new car is better, but still seems second best to BMW. I think I was most impressed with the diesel. It was perfectly happy doing 90mph on the Autostrada, and yet manages Prius level mpg.

    I suppose the RS could be an M killer. Porsche could start there, but then what would the price be?
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    "Oh, I thought you meant German cars companies in general. How do you feel about Porsche getting into the LPS arena? Obviously, many people were outraged by the Cayenne, and I'm sure the thought of Porsche making a sedan will prompt somewhat of a similar response though not as bad."

    Cars, I think, are psychological entities as much as they are machines. So, I don't expect myself or anyone else to be rational about them. I get why some want the word "Porsche" to mean nothing but "pure sports car". I, on the other hand, got quite excited about the Cayenne and love seeing this particular piece of engineering-design-art moving down the road. I'd anticipate stopping by a Porsche dealer to oogle and grope any sedan they might introduce.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    "Underestimating Audis seems, sometimes, to be a lot of folks favorite passtimes"

    Amen ... conisder this:

    After listing all the glitches they encountered during their year with the Audi A6, the editors of Automobile magazine wrote: "If those constant reminders of the problems that seem almost inherent with high-tech German engineering were highly aggravating, we were at least pleasantly surprised by the A6's relatively frugal fuel economy" (they averaged 22+ and I'm not optimistic that I'll often break through to 18 on any tank-full with my Japanese M35, I'm thinking as I read that). Then they conclude that they were "strangely unmoved" (here they are talking from that emotion-laden and idiosyncratic psychological place, to which I referred in the previous post, and not as journalists) by the A6.

    Now, at that point in my reading, despite my expectation that cars evoke psychologically-weighted and, therefore, idiosyncratic reactions, I'm still taken aback by the fact that this group of automotive professionals allow themselves to write that they are "strangely unmoved" by a car about which they've written: "If looks alone could thrill" -- they can't??? -- "it would be a great car" and "The A6 has a smooth V-6 engine, and impressive fuel economy. For some people that would be enough." Yes, for many readers that might be enough, I'm thinking, if you guys were not about to drop the other shoe and scare them off a great car that many of them might really enjoy driving. But then they do go on to say: "But it had far too many quality problems, and its chief competitors, the BMW 5-series and the Mercedes-Benz E-class, are a step up in both performance and prestige."

    Well, I'm astonished at that point at this weird version of "journalism". With the "strangely unmoved," they've crossed over into psychology-land and not fact-land (and they've acknowledged finding themselves confused there), but they are going to try to recover a sense of being on solid (objective, fact-based) ground by using "performance" and "prestige" as if they were simply quantifiable "things" a car has in clearly measurable proportions which they, as experts, have measured and are now reporting their scientific findings to us. Tf they are trying to look and sound grounded in objective fact, a sample of one is not going to help them. One of us, or one group of editors, having ended up with a lemon of sorts is not evidence of anything except the randomness of good and bad luck.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I absolutely agree. I own a Cayenne so I know what an amazing feat of engineering it is. A sports car turned SUV. Not an easy thing to accomplish if you're true to both the S in SUV and the U. Nothing is better than oggling at the Porsche dealership. The only problem is, I'm there buying a Cayenne and what I really want is the 911 Carrera 4S sitting in the showroom! I would definitely be interested in a Porsche sedan. I say that with no hesitation even given the price I KNOW it will command. It's funny, Porsche spends so much of it's money on the performance aspects of the cars that people wonder why the interiors can be somewhat spartan. It's because that's the right place to spend the money. People get faked out by wood on the dash as if that means anything. You can get it in a Porsche, but it will cost you extra. I love the uncluttered dash of my Cayenne. And this is coming from a defender of the Bangle BMW designs, as well as someone that love Audi interiors.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, I'm astonished at that point at this weird version of "journalism". With the "strangely unmoved," they've crossed over into psychology-land and not fact-land (and they've acknowledged finding themselves confused there), but they are going to try to recover a sense of being on solid (objective, fact-based) ground by using "performance" and "prestige" as if they were simply quantifiable "things" a car has in clearly measurable proportions which they, as experts, have measured and are now reporting their scientific findings to us.

    I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say here. It takes more than a smooth engine and good fuel economy to make a truly great car, the kind of car you always glance back at as you walk away from it, and itch to get back behind the wheel. They've said the A6 is good, not great. Clarkson said the same thing about the Continental GT, saying that it lacks the "X-factor" that makes a good car into a great one. What is X-factor? It's not some number you can put down on a sheet and compare it to another car's X-factor. You've either got "it", or you dont.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    What I was trying to say is that their "it" and your "it" are subjective entities in their collective editorial consciousness and in your own. They appear to me to try to write on both sides of the subjective-objective fence simultaneously -- in a way I find to be unconvincing. If they find their own experience of being "unmoved" to be "strange," so do I.
  • aflcaflc Member Posts: 8
    It looks like Audi is doing pretty well in terms of quality and satisfaction lately.

    http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/11072006/244/audi-revving-new-gains.html

    The perception of the Audi brand in the US is definitely different than the rest of the world. Here in the US there seems to be a bias that Audi is only second best compared to the other two German car makers, but that does not seem to be the case in Germany where drivers have picked it #1.
  • sfcharliesfcharlie Member Posts: 402
    Actually the best reply to this assessment of Audi;s lack of greatness comes from the editors of the very same Automobile Magazine, in their 3-day comparison test of luxury sport sedans (incluidng BMW 5-series and Mercedes E-series), where they concluded:

    "We are surprised [again, they find themselves having an odd reaction to their own experience of the Audi] that our three days of driving have brought us to see the Audi A6 4.2 Quattro as the right car to drive. We've grown accustomed to thinking of any Audi as a nearly-there kind of car, but the A6 delivers such extraordinary satisfaction in every aspect of driving that we find it irresistible. Gillies says, "It is both beautiful and bang up-to-date, proving that being at the cutting edge doesn't mean missing the mark. It feels bored at 80 mph and doesn't break a sweat at 100 mph." Johnson notes, "It isn't a superstar in any single category, but it possesses such a high level of excellence in all areas that it deserves the gold medal." Sherman says simply, "I would happily live with it."
    The Audi A6 delivers a premium experience, and it marks you as a driver who appreciates both great design and great driving. Of course, such artistic excellence needs to be matched by practical excellence in such things as quality, durability, and even residual value, and that's the aspect of the Audi equation that remains unproven. For now, though, the A6 is unquestionably a great car, and we think it provides a solid foundation on which to build a great car company. As our experience in Palm Springs reminds us, there's no reason to settle for less than the best."

    If the A6 was an unquestionably great car then, what changed? The 8 trips to the service dept. Their one car having those glitches appears to have led them to disregard their own assessment of the A6 line as "great" and "the best", because for them the failure of that one unit to show (build) quality and durability ruined the experience of it as "a great," in fact, "the best" driving luxury sport sedan.

    They're human too. If you're the one who ends up with the lemon, it might start not to matter that -- in a comparison against Mercedes and BMW -- you experienced it a the ultimate driving machine. But, I'm claiming, as journalists, they ought to have referenced and questioned their "strange" (to them) being "unmoved" by the total ownership experience with the A6 and they should have considered the possibility that it's electrical glitches had soured them on it -- rather than make an about-face and saying: gee, you know what, for reasons we cannot put our finger on we now don't really like driving it. In fact, upon further driving of it, we slightly changed our opinion to: "Until the A6 becomes a true driver's car, it is destined to remain a nice car for people who want to buy into the sport sedan club without actually knowing what a sport sedan can be." Apparently, that includes them.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    "JULY 10, 2006

    BUSINESSWEEK: AUTOS
    By Gail Edmondson

    Audi: Revving to New Gains
    Toyota is seeking to remake the European car map. But Audi's recent success shows a commitment to change that is paying off against rivals

    Audi boss Martin Winterkorn loves to push the accelerator up to 180 mph in Audi's high-performance models whenever the German autobahn is empty. But along with building fast, eye-catching, premium cars that rival those of BMW and Mercedes-Benz, he is determined to match Toyota's (TM) famous quality and reliability.

    So the latest J.D. Power & Associates customer satisfaction survey for Germany is a coup for the 58-year-old CEO. Audi was one of the biggest gainers in 2006, tying with BMW and rated No. 7, the highest-ranking non-Japanese brand in the survey, which was led for the fifth year running by Toyota.

    The annual J.D. Power report, released July 5, shows Audi made big gains in vehicle quality and customer service, and scored high in vehicle appeal (J.D. Power is a division of The McGraw-Hill Companies (MHP), which also owns BusinessWeek.com). Audi's quality ranking alone jumped 21 points in Germany from 2005, while the industry as a whole improved by only 6 points. "In most areas Audi now goes head-to-head with BMW," says David Sargent, head of operations for J.D. Power in London, noting Audi's quality parameter in 2006 was three points higher than BMW's on a scale of 1,000.

    "HAS HAD TO OVERACHIEVE." These figures are based solely on the opinions of current car owners. But when Germans--the most demanding drivers in the world--are asked to vote on which brand they like the most regardless of what they drive now, Audi fares even better.

    In the 2006 reader survey by German magazine Auto Motor & Sport, Audi swept the rankings, overtaking both BMW and Mercedes for best car in the compact (A3), executive sedan (A6), and luxury sedan (A8) categories. "Audi has had to overachieve," to win its place in the premium market says Karl Ludvigsen, president of Euromotor Consultants in North Hampton, U.K.

    It's not just in Germany where Audi is on the upswing. In J.D. Power's 2006 French survey, BMW and Audi scored higher than they did among German owners, ranking No. 2 and No. 5 respectively, with Honda (HMC) taking first place. The annual survey measures cars on quality and reliability, vehicle appeal, service satisfaction, and ownership costs.

    POSITIVE NOISE. BMW's Mini was the most-improved European brand in the J.D. Power 2006 German ranking, also scoring gains in quality, reliability, and service satisfaction.

    All this positive buzz is helping Audi notch big revenue gains. In the first half of this year, Audi's sales climbed 9.8%, to 463,500 units, compared with 8% for BMW. Winterkorn aims to reach sales of 880,000 this year and double sales to 1.4 million by 2015. But Audi still has to step on the gas to catch its German rivals. The $34 billion Bavarian auto maker sold 829,000 cars worldwide last year, compared with 1.1 million for both BMW and Mercedes.

    In the U.S., where Audi is bent on clawing market share from luxury competitors, first-half sales rose 7.3%, helped by the introduction of the new A3 sportback, the A6 sedan, and the Q7 SUV. Strong global demand for the huge Q7, which was designed for the U.S. market, has prompted Audi to raise its worldwide Q7 sales forecast by 10,000 cars to 70,000, and to expand production."


    Read on McDuff, read on.

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  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Thas it why American surveys lack credibility. It is more that tier 1 Audi's volume in the US in not as large as MB, BMW, or Lexus so there is this visibility factor in the surveys that is missing compared to the others. Sampling is an issue. Still, Audi ranked higher than BMW or MB in the recent JD Powers survey in the US.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If I took those surveys seriously I would neither buy a Audi, MB or BMW. I would buy a Lexus instead.

    I dont take these surveys seriously at all and that is why I have owned problem-free BMWs for almost a decade with no major unpredictable repairs. Also I keep my cars beyond the warranty period and so far I have not exposed myself to any major financial risks in terms of repair costs.

    If my experience is a statistical anomaly then I really dont care. I will continue having confidence about BMW reliabilty as long as my own cars dont disappoint me.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    really all CR and JD do is give an idea what is happening with other people as the people share with them what they share....I --in the past-- have not really found the questions asked to have the substance needed to convey a like or dislike, so i have just answered the best of my ability....The thing that did it for me with CR was there opinion of fifferent `Bread`...I asked myself the question `How does anyone pass judgement on another persons taste` from that point on I have greatly discounted their publication...A person has to make their own effort and use their own judgement and not take the easy way out...Tony
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    My experience too is a statistical anomaly, having 3 trouble-free BMW's since 1993.
    I'm glad there are 2 of us. That should be it. ;)
    One lunatic on another thread actually called me a liar-that it couldn't possibly be true!

    Those damn surveys and the auto mags. have little to do with reality.
    If you believe what you read: the 5 series is terribly ugly, iDrive is incredibly difficult and this vehicle has serious reliability issues. So this vehicle's sales should be dramatically shrinking.
    Reality: the 5 series is the overwhelming leader in the LPS segment with sales annihilating the A6, GS and E Class.

    I'll take reality every time! :blush:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    We are two rarebirds indeed.

    According to JD or CR we are both statistically classified as an endangered species doomed to the path of extinction. ;)
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    My numerous unscheduled stops to the dealer kept me from replacing my 98 A6 with a new one. Seals, radiator, water pump, suspension pieces worn out, and other things at less than 50K miles just ruined the long-term perspective of trying another one. Along with that, the sunroof just took up too much headroom. Yes, I know it is possible to buy one without, but when I looked, there were all of 3 in the entire country plus, most of the goodies can't be had without one. Obviously, my single experience with one car does not indicate a trend, but CR did indicate it was less reliable than others.

    Can't say anything on newer ones, or even others from that year. The lack of sufficient headroom was the clincher. I just refuse to drive laying down, and then it would be either stretching forward for the steering wheel, or jamming my knees when lifting to hit the brake.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Apparently thousands of folks are thumbing their collective noses at JD and the auto mags and are making the Bangle 5 series one of the greatest success stories in automotive history.

    Uhh...wonder what happened to the auto media's darling, the Infiniti M?
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    I have the same experience. I have had nine Audis and they were all trouble-free. My current three are without question the best, absolutely no problems or drama. This is what I go by and not what someone thinks they can tell me is correct since I am the one actually experiencing the ownership. So much for surveys.
  • calhoncalhon Member Posts: 87
    According to JD or CR we are both statistically classified as an endangered species doomed to the path of extinction.

    Well, neither the JD Power nor CR reliability data says that. On the contrary, the data says few problems is the normal experience with almost all recent models.

    However, both organizations make a mountain out of a mole hill in order to generate revenue. CR is particularly misleading, because they generally provide only relative ratings, describe below average as synonymous with poor or bad, and use loaded symbols, etc.

    The seemingly simple way the results are presented plays to the emotions and innumeracy of readers, who think they understand, when in fact they have jumped to completely wrong conclusions.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't know if I'd call a 7K unit lead over the E-Class "overwhelming" or "annihilating".

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Uhh...wonder what happened to the auto media's darling, the Infiniti M?

    All things considered, the M is doing very well. Keep in mind that all of NNA is hugely down in the last few months, and thats going to hurt M sales, no matter how good it is. They never expected the M to be selling at the 5\E level. If it did, it would represent 60%+ of Infiniti's total sales.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Good, because I'm thinking about the possibility of a Q7 somewhere down the road. Best looking SUV out there, IMO.
  • jlbljlbl Member Posts: 1,333
    Very interesting point that that you made on using American or Imperial units. I am sorry of my delay in answering that, but here it is how my calculations were made:

    1 gallon = 3.78533 liters

    1 mile = 1,6093472 kilometers

    1 libra = 2.2046223399 kilograms

    Are they US or British? I am not sure

    Regards,

    Jose
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "They never expected the M to be selling at the 5/E level."

    I don't know about that. When the car's motto is "built to out-perform", I would like to believe there is a double-meaning: in driving characteristics and in sales.

    There is no doubt in my mind, the Infiniti M was built specifically as Japan's answer to the BMW 5 series.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Infiniti's clearly stated sales goal before launch 24,000 annual sales for the M. They exceeded that the first year, and they're on pace to exceed that this year.

    It's not realistic to expect the M to outsell the 5. Like it or not, the name "BMW" helps to sell the 5. The M has to sell solely based on the merits of the car itself. It gets no help from the name "Infiniti". Also, this is Infiniti's first foray into this segment. BMW has established customers who've been buying the 5 series for decades.

    Not saying which car is better or worse, but there are many factors that come into play when it comes to sales other than the merits of that particular model.

    Toyota could build the world's best full-sized pickup ever, but it still would get outsold by the F series pickup 5 to 1. Brand/model loyalty is a powerful thing.
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