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Comments
M
Trust me I wrote that post number down on a sticky!
I doubt we'll ever get a M3 Touring, such limited sales IMO.
M
Yes, I suppose Bangle and Co. might have reached the conclusion that sales prove design choices were correct. However, they ought to give some credit to consistency of great engineering, which might be transcending design changes. And to the fact that BMW production quality has escaped the "Germans can't build reliable cars" cliché that has befallen (or been earned by) Audi and Mercedes.
My theory is that inventing the concept of the sport sedan + the maintenance of perfect 50/50 balance over the years + the tight steering/handling + being the only German car company to score average or above on CR and JDP surveys of reliability and initial quality = best sales among LPS. In other words, people who can afford LPS cars clearly want a German car and BMW has earned the sales and established the momentum to keep the sales, even when designers did what architects and designers have sometimes done (IMHO), which is forget that the purpose of design is to make a lot of people feel good when they see it, not simply make the designer feel creative and influential. Maybe there are lots of BMW buyers getting turned on by looking at the cars or sitting in them, but my guess is that's not what is selling BMWs.
What is not selling the Audi lineup might be reports like the one in the current issue of Automobile magazine. The editors drove an A6 for a year. The conclusion: "Beautiful styling, smooth powertrain, good mileage".
But, and this has got to be a killer to Audi sales, they report 8 trips to the service dept in their 25K miles of driving the car. For many readers, that's the game. Sure, maybe 50 will tune into the Edmunds Audi A6 forum and be reassured they can depend on Audi's great build quality and the anecdotal testimonials of a dozen enthusiastic forum participants. And some readers of the conclusion will stop at"Beautiful styling, smooth powertrain, good mileage" and not care about "abrupt throttle tip-in" (complained about in almost every review of A6 with V6 -- even though, a simple switch to Sport Mode appeared to me to overcome that, it is hardly ever mentioned), "harsh over bumps," and, the killer, "electrical glitches."
If Audi wants to catch Mercedes and BMW, they have got to do something to overcome their negative press and not rely on the niche of people who want to drive a sport sedan in the snow. BMW knows how -- through both engineering and marketing brilliance -- to keep their place among German sedans.
I pretty much agree with this. I have read right here a few times that people bought these new Bangle BMWs "despite how they look" etc. because of how they can't find/duplicate the same driving experience elsewhere. So what you're saying is likely true for a lot of buyers, then you add in those that are now attracted to BMWs because of this shift in design and poof(!) BMW posts some major sales gains. So far those who left BMW over the design and idrive haven't made a big impact in sales, but the long term report isn't out yet.
M
Perhaps, too, the Japanese and Americans don't want to create a German feeling car -- I am pretty certain that must not be a tier one goal for Lexus cars.
Cadillac does seem to want to crack the code, on the other hand.
But, while sales figures -- the ones we are referring to -- are revealing, they may or may not be as conclusive as we assume or want them to be.
It appears to me that the BMW 5 series outsells Acura's RL by over 5 to one (using the current figure) and outsells Audi's A6 by at least 3 to one. Here, in the US, that is.
Audi, BMW and Mercedes sales (in the posting above) are going up -- the other players seem to be going down. Again, at least here in the US.
GM, for instance, appears to be having a tough row to hoe generally, and I assume this means "everywhere." On the other hand, in interviews with GM execs, they are encouraged (somewhat) by improved sales overseas, particularly in China.
Audi, too, posted 90+% sales increases in China and one can assume that BMW and Mercedes did well there too.
The confusing fact, to me, is the disparity of sales between Audi, BMW and Mercedes in the US. Elsewhere, the sales performance is closer, more neck and neck, etc; and, with some frequency Audi is the sales leader. Elsewhere, especially in Europe, Audi sales are not 1/3 of BMW's and, as far as I know also not 3 times BMW's.
We Americans are probably not unwilling to say "we know better," or "we can discriminate or differentiate" between these LPS cars (as if implying folks elsewhere cannot perhaps?)
We've hashed this over before, but we have also pointed to sales figures as indicators of "superior" engineering or style or content or fill in the blank.
I wonder if Audi just sends us "seconds" and we somehow figured that out and we instead buy BMW's and Mercedes because we don't want the European rejects.
I guess it is possible, but it has to be very unlikely that this is the case. Audi is on a tear worldwide, on its way to selling nearly 900,000 cars -- and even in the US, sales performance just keeps improving. Audi mgmt must be pleased, as one would suspect Audi shareholders are, too.
What has caused the discrepancy in quantity of cars sold -- in the US? I, for one, am not convinced it is the product, for although I do understand and agree that often the BMW is "the standard bearer," these cars, from what I can tell are far more similar than dissimilar (all of them, not just the Germans.) But I have driven, back to back, an A6 3.2 and a 530xi (autotrans, unfortunately) and they are both great cars -- I would take the 5 with the stick, but if forced to choose among the two both equipped with the auto, the Audi gets my vote.
As I contemplate my second attempt to jump off the Audi ship next year, perhaps, the only contender this time is the 530xi, unlike last time when the M35X seemed a reasonable approximation of a German sedan but priced -- at that time -- hundreds less per month on a lease.
The M35X was my "settle for" car at that time, but when Audi began marketing its cars via its leasing arm (aggressively) I came back to the German feel in a heartbeat. There was no 530xi stick or auto at that moment, so that was one temptation, at the time, that I did not have to face.
Yet, folks here overwhelmingly buy the autotrans versions -- when the BMW in both RWD and AWD is available with a stick. The night and day performance and control offered in the stick and sharply reduced in the auto version is, I find, an anomaly. But, then again, I won't get any of these without the AWD, and lots of folks think that means giving up a big chunk of performance (over a RWD only version, i.e.)
Elsewhere BMW and Audi (to name two) fight tooth and nail for the "sales penetration" lead. I believe currently Audi is in the lead -- just not here.
I am not as quick, therefore, to hang my hat on sales = superiority.
I find it still confusing the disparity is that great. It would seem, to me, more "normal" were the sales leaders, in order BMW, Mercedes and Audi and that they were within 5 or 10% of each other -- not 300%!
The dealer network here both in quantity and quality must shoulder much of the blame; and, other than Q7 ads, there seems to be little advertising offered up by Audi, but BMW and Mercedes spots are "everywhere." :confuse:
It definitely won't be here. Porsche would have to make a midsized, Boxster priced sedan for that to happen. It could end up in the HELM thread though if there's interest in the car, the Maser did.
But, yes, I find it heartening that Porsche was able to rack up those numbers -- whatever they really mean -- since they matter to many shoppers and I want German sedans to thrive and proliferate.
Totally uninterested.
Wake me up when Porsche comes out with a $50k-$80k compact sports sedan aimed squarely at the 330i.
Then I will start salivating.
Then I will start salivating.
The clock is ticking and we will have to wait a few more lifetimes until that happens. Porsche cannot compete at that price range unless an Audi A4 platform is used. A very bad idea in my opinion and hopefully Porsche is shrewd enough to know that. Otherwise Porsche's VW investment could end up being a big waste of Euros .
Who expected them to come out with a large SUV?
I'm already practicing starting my car with my left hand.
You gotta believe!
Just hope it happens within 2 years before I sell my soul for another 3 year stint with something else!
One thing's for sure-no help from Porsche on a leasing deal like I got on the 545.
Who expected them to come out with a large SUV?
I'm already practicing starting my car with my left hand.
You gotta believe!
That's totally different. A Porsche sports sedan based on a FWD car would be disasterous. Worse even than the FWD Jaguar. The Porsche can't just match the 3 series, it has to be even better, even more balanced, even more pure to drive. An A4 can't do that.
I would hope Porsche will come out with a compact sport sedan to "be even better, even more balanced, even more pure to drive" than the 3 series. A RW driver, of course!
At a super-premium price, of course! :sick:
I don't salivate over FRD compact "sport" sedans.
I believe Porsche is in the midst of one of the greatest turn-arounds in automotive history and that could involve aggressively taking on traditional BMW territory.
CR Annual Auto issue:
page 41 -- Audi A6 -- reliability rating "below average"
page 42 -- BMW 5-Series -- reliability rating "average" + "recommended buy"
The entire Audi line remains nose heavy, but, (and I wonder what their engineers know that seem to allow them to work miracles) driving the A4's (speaking ONLY of them in quattro trim) remains a confidence inspiring and performance gleaning experience.
I am not suggesting Porsche should use the B7 or even the upcoming B8 platform -- I am just wondering how many miles you have driven in Audis, A4's in particular.
Underestimating Audis seems, sometimes, to be a lot of folks favorite passtimes -- and often I find those most quick to comment last drove an Audi years and years ago, if ever.
I've driven the V6 turbo and V8 versions of the S4 (long test drives), as well as the 2.0L diesel, for about a week in Italy. The last gen car was quick, but the ride quality wasn't great. The new car is better, but still seems second best to BMW. I think I was most impressed with the diesel. It was perfectly happy doing 90mph on the Autostrada, and yet manages Prius level mpg.
I suppose the RS could be an M killer. Porsche could start there, but then what would the price be?
Cars, I think, are psychological entities as much as they are machines. So, I don't expect myself or anyone else to be rational about them. I get why some want the word "Porsche" to mean nothing but "pure sports car". I, on the other hand, got quite excited about the Cayenne and love seeing this particular piece of engineering-design-art moving down the road. I'd anticipate stopping by a Porsche dealer to oogle and grope any sedan they might introduce.
Amen ... conisder this:
After listing all the glitches they encountered during their year with the Audi A6, the editors of Automobile magazine wrote: "If those constant reminders of the problems that seem almost inherent with high-tech German engineering were highly aggravating, we were at least pleasantly surprised by the A6's relatively frugal fuel economy" (they averaged 22+ and I'm not optimistic that I'll often break through to 18 on any tank-full with my Japanese M35, I'm thinking as I read that). Then they conclude that they were "strangely unmoved" (here they are talking from that emotion-laden and idiosyncratic psychological place, to which I referred in the previous post, and not as journalists) by the A6.
Now, at that point in my reading, despite my expectation that cars evoke psychologically-weighted and, therefore, idiosyncratic reactions, I'm still taken aback by the fact that this group of automotive professionals allow themselves to write that they are "strangely unmoved" by a car about which they've written: "If looks alone could thrill" -- they can't??? -- "it would be a great car" and "The A6 has a smooth V-6 engine, and impressive fuel economy. For some people that would be enough." Yes, for many readers that might be enough, I'm thinking, if you guys were not about to drop the other shoe and scare them off a great car that many of them might really enjoy driving. But then they do go on to say: "But it had far too many quality problems, and its chief competitors, the BMW 5-series and the Mercedes-Benz E-class, are a step up in both performance and prestige."
Well, I'm astonished at that point at this weird version of "journalism". With the "strangely unmoved," they've crossed over into psychology-land and not fact-land (and they've acknowledged finding themselves confused there), but they are going to try to recover a sense of being on solid (objective, fact-based) ground by using "performance" and "prestige" as if they were simply quantifiable "things" a car has in clearly measurable proportions which they, as experts, have measured and are now reporting their scientific findings to us. Tf they are trying to look and sound grounded in objective fact, a sample of one is not going to help them. One of us, or one group of editors, having ended up with a lemon of sorts is not evidence of anything except the randomness of good and bad luck.
I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say here. It takes more than a smooth engine and good fuel economy to make a truly great car, the kind of car you always glance back at as you walk away from it, and itch to get back behind the wheel. They've said the A6 is good, not great. Clarkson said the same thing about the Continental GT, saying that it lacks the "X-factor" that makes a good car into a great one. What is X-factor? It's not some number you can put down on a sheet and compare it to another car's X-factor. You've either got "it", or you dont.
http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/11072006/244/audi-revving-new-gains.html
The perception of the Audi brand in the US is definitely different than the rest of the world. Here in the US there seems to be a bias that Audi is only second best compared to the other two German car makers, but that does not seem to be the case in Germany where drivers have picked it #1.
"We are surprised [again, they find themselves having an odd reaction to their own experience of the Audi] that our three days of driving have brought us to see the Audi A6 4.2 Quattro as the right car to drive. We've grown accustomed to thinking of any Audi as a nearly-there kind of car, but the A6 delivers such extraordinary satisfaction in every aspect of driving that we find it irresistible. Gillies says, "It is both beautiful and bang up-to-date, proving that being at the cutting edge doesn't mean missing the mark. It feels bored at 80 mph and doesn't break a sweat at 100 mph." Johnson notes, "It isn't a superstar in any single category, but it possesses such a high level of excellence in all areas that it deserves the gold medal." Sherman says simply, "I would happily live with it."
The Audi A6 delivers a premium experience, and it marks you as a driver who appreciates both great design and great driving. Of course, such artistic excellence needs to be matched by practical excellence in such things as quality, durability, and even residual value, and that's the aspect of the Audi equation that remains unproven. For now, though, the A6 is unquestionably a great car, and we think it provides a solid foundation on which to build a great car company. As our experience in Palm Springs reminds us, there's no reason to settle for less than the best."
If the A6 was an unquestionably great car then, what changed? The 8 trips to the service dept. Their one car having those glitches appears to have led them to disregard their own assessment of the A6 line as "great" and "the best", because for them the failure of that one unit to show (build) quality and durability ruined the experience of it as "a great," in fact, "the best" driving luxury sport sedan.
They're human too. If you're the one who ends up with the lemon, it might start not to matter that -- in a comparison against Mercedes and BMW -- you experienced it a the ultimate driving machine. But, I'm claiming, as journalists, they ought to have referenced and questioned their "strange" (to them) being "unmoved" by the total ownership experience with the A6 and they should have considered the possibility that it's electrical glitches had soured them on it -- rather than make an about-face and saying: gee, you know what, for reasons we cannot put our finger on we now don't really like driving it. In fact, upon further driving of it, we slightly changed our opinion to: "Until the A6 becomes a true driver's car, it is destined to remain a nice car for people who want to buy into the sport sedan club without actually knowing what a sport sedan can be." Apparently, that includes them.
BUSINESSWEEK: AUTOS
By Gail Edmondson
Audi: Revving to New Gains
Toyota is seeking to remake the European car map. But Audi's recent success shows a commitment to change that is paying off against rivals
Audi boss Martin Winterkorn loves to push the accelerator up to 180 mph in Audi's high-performance models whenever the German autobahn is empty. But along with building fast, eye-catching, premium cars that rival those of BMW and Mercedes-Benz, he is determined to match Toyota's (TM) famous quality and reliability.
So the latest J.D. Power & Associates customer satisfaction survey for Germany is a coup for the 58-year-old CEO. Audi was one of the biggest gainers in 2006, tying with BMW and rated No. 7, the highest-ranking non-Japanese brand in the survey, which was led for the fifth year running by Toyota.
The annual J.D. Power report, released July 5, shows Audi made big gains in vehicle quality and customer service, and scored high in vehicle appeal (J.D. Power is a division of The McGraw-Hill Companies (MHP), which also owns BusinessWeek.com). Audi's quality ranking alone jumped 21 points in Germany from 2005, while the industry as a whole improved by only 6 points. "In most areas Audi now goes head-to-head with BMW," says David Sargent, head of operations for J.D. Power in London, noting Audi's quality parameter in 2006 was three points higher than BMW's on a scale of 1,000.
"HAS HAD TO OVERACHIEVE." These figures are based solely on the opinions of current car owners. But when Germans--the most demanding drivers in the world--are asked to vote on which brand they like the most regardless of what they drive now, Audi fares even better.
In the 2006 reader survey by German magazine Auto Motor & Sport, Audi swept the rankings, overtaking both BMW and Mercedes for best car in the compact (A3), executive sedan (A6), and luxury sedan (A8) categories. "Audi has had to overachieve," to win its place in the premium market says Karl Ludvigsen, president of Euromotor Consultants in North Hampton, U.K.
It's not just in Germany where Audi is on the upswing. In J.D. Power's 2006 French survey, BMW and Audi scored higher than they did among German owners, ranking No. 2 and No. 5 respectively, with Honda (HMC) taking first place. The annual survey measures cars on quality and reliability, vehicle appeal, service satisfaction, and ownership costs.
POSITIVE NOISE. BMW's Mini was the most-improved European brand in the J.D. Power 2006 German ranking, also scoring gains in quality, reliability, and service satisfaction.
All this positive buzz is helping Audi notch big revenue gains. In the first half of this year, Audi's sales climbed 9.8%, to 463,500 units, compared with 8% for BMW. Winterkorn aims to reach sales of 880,000 this year and double sales to 1.4 million by 2015. But Audi still has to step on the gas to catch its German rivals. The $34 billion Bavarian auto maker sold 829,000 cars worldwide last year, compared with 1.1 million for both BMW and Mercedes.
In the U.S., where Audi is bent on clawing market share from luxury competitors, first-half sales rose 7.3%, helped by the introduction of the new A3 sportback, the A6 sedan, and the Q7 SUV. Strong global demand for the huge Q7, which was designed for the U.S. market, has prompted Audi to raise its worldwide Q7 sales forecast by 10,000 cars to 70,000, and to expand production."
Read on McDuff, read on.
Full Story: Klik Here
I dont take these surveys seriously at all and that is why I have owned problem-free BMWs for almost a decade with no major unpredictable repairs. Also I keep my cars beyond the warranty period and so far I have not exposed myself to any major financial risks in terms of repair costs.
If my experience is a statistical anomaly then I really dont care. I will continue having confidence about BMW reliabilty as long as my own cars dont disappoint me.
I'm glad there are 2 of us. That should be it.
One lunatic on another thread actually called me a liar-that it couldn't possibly be true!
Those damn surveys and the auto mags. have little to do with reality.
If you believe what you read: the 5 series is terribly ugly, iDrive is incredibly difficult and this vehicle has serious reliability issues. So this vehicle's sales should be dramatically shrinking.
Reality: the 5 series is the overwhelming leader in the LPS segment with sales annihilating the A6, GS and E Class.
I'll take reality every time!
According to JD or CR we are both statistically classified as an endangered species doomed to the path of extinction.
Can't say anything on newer ones, or even others from that year. The lack of sufficient headroom was the clincher. I just refuse to drive laying down, and then it would be either stretching forward for the steering wheel, or jamming my knees when lifting to hit the brake.
Uhh...wonder what happened to the auto media's darling, the Infiniti M?
Well, neither the JD Power nor CR reliability data says that. On the contrary, the data says few problems is the normal experience with almost all recent models.
However, both organizations make a mountain out of a mole hill in order to generate revenue. CR is particularly misleading, because they generally provide only relative ratings, describe below average as synonymous with poor or bad, and use loaded symbols, etc.
The seemingly simple way the results are presented plays to the emotions and innumeracy of readers, who think they understand, when in fact they have jumped to completely wrong conclusions.
M
All things considered, the M is doing very well. Keep in mind that all of NNA is hugely down in the last few months, and thats going to hurt M sales, no matter how good it is. They never expected the M to be selling at the 5\E level. If it did, it would represent 60%+ of Infiniti's total sales.
1 gallon = 3.78533 liters
1 mile = 1,6093472 kilometers
1 libra = 2.2046223399 kilograms
Are they US or British? I am not sure
Regards,
Jose
I don't know about that. When the car's motto is "built to out-perform", I would like to believe there is a double-meaning: in driving characteristics and in sales.
There is no doubt in my mind, the Infiniti M was built specifically as Japan's answer to the BMW 5 series.
It's not realistic to expect the M to outsell the 5. Like it or not, the name "BMW" helps to sell the 5. The M has to sell solely based on the merits of the car itself. It gets no help from the name "Infiniti". Also, this is Infiniti's first foray into this segment. BMW has established customers who've been buying the 5 series for decades.
Not saying which car is better or worse, but there are many factors that come into play when it comes to sales other than the merits of that particular model.
Toyota could build the world's best full-sized pickup ever, but it still would get outsold by the F series pickup 5 to 1. Brand/model loyalty is a powerful thing.