Luxury Performance Sedans

dewey · August 2006

Yes, it is interesting that given the HP wars, particularly involving the M vs the GS, that Nissan/Infiniti chose NOT to put the upgraded G VQ engine in the M.

Prediction: M sales are going to drop like a rock when the G is introduced. And the G will be a hot seller and compensate for the lost sales of the M. Unfortuantely the product-line of Infiniti is beginning to look scant. With upoming lacklustre sales of the M and hardly non-existent sales of the Q, the Infiniti brand will be carried mainly on the shoulders of the G.

If I was an Infiniti dealer I would protest and demand the the M be given an upgraded engine at the same time as the G. Ofcourse Infiniti's H.O. will not listen.

rich545 · August 2006

The Tip in my Cayenne is great when shifting manually. It's just not so great when left in full auto. I was just surprised at the different 0-60 times for the Boxter with Tip though. It's the same with the Boxter S too. The Tip is about .8 seconds slower than manual 0-60. The 911 Carrera 4S cuts that difference in half, and the Turbo cuts it to .3 according to the website. With differences that small I could see a really good Tip driver making up for them. I just wonder why 0-60 times are so different for the Boxter and Cayman, but not the 911. Is it the increased power?

lexusguy · August 2006

Prediction: M sales are going to drop like a rock when the G is introduced. And the G will be a hot seller and compensate for the lost sales of the M. Unfortuantely the product-line of Infiniti is beginning to look scant. With upoming lacklustre sales of the M and hardly non-existent sales of the Q, the Infiniti brand will be carried mainly on the shoulders of the G.

I dont think thats true. The IS350 has loads more power than the GS300, but it hasn't really impacted sales of the GS. You can already get more muscle from the G than the M35, via the six-speed. The G35's original engine upgrade coincided with its mid-cycle refresh. I'm sure that when it comes time for an updated M, the new engine will be on the list.

sfcharlie · August 2006

Prediction: M sales are going to drop like a rock when the G is introduced.

Out-on-limb prediction. Sales of M were down in June and July, compared to last June and July (by 13.4% July to July) -- not sure when one hits "drop like a rock" percentage downturn point. On the other hand, M with new engine would be a year away, so if new G gets serious attention in showrooms, not sure why M sales would go up again, if competition is both external and internal.

Sales for Infiniti were down 18.1 percent with 10,548 units sold as compared with last Julys 13,395 units.

dewey · August 2006

dont think thats true. The IS350 has loads more power than the GS300, but it hasn't really impacted sales of the GS.

GS300 sales were not impacted after the IS350 intro?

GS 300 figures: -33.7% MTD July 06 and -13.0% YTD 06

Apparently something is impacting GS sales if not the IS350.

lexusguy · August 2006

Apparently something is impacting GS sales if not the IS350.

I think its just some novelty wearing off of the GS. I would put the lost sales to stiff competition from the likes of the 5 and E, not the IS's power advantage. I guess we'll see what happens when the GS350 is introduced.

drtravel · August 2006

Prediction: M sales are going to drop like a rock when the G is introduced. And the G will be a hot seller and compensate for the lost sales of the M.

The M is much bigger (and comfortable) car than the G. If buyers were only concerned about hp they could get the M45. Like saying that if BMW put a more powerful engine in the 3-series, the sales of the 5-series would drop like a rock. Not when you're comparing apples to oranges.

dhamilton · August 2006

think it was to much of a stretch to put together that automatic is the word. Hopefully i haven't offended anyone with that.....automatic, automatic, automatic. OK, back to hitchhiking

jrock65 · August 2006

I think M sales will drop a bit, but not "like a rock". It should be able to meet its annual sales goal of 24,000 units per year, even during its 3rd and 4th years.

The 2008 M will probably get the 306 3.5L engine, along with some updates to the exterior and interior. Or it may even get the 3.7L engine that the 2008 G Coupe is purportedly getting. At the same time, they'll have to up the hp in the M45, to compete better against the 550i, GS460 and E550. Nissan recently trademarked "FX50" (but no "M50" yet), so we'll see.

I bet that they change the M's amber instrumentation to the predominantly white instrumentaion, similar to the 2007 G35.

pat · August 2006

Careful - no cussing in here!!

:P

breld · August 2006

The Tip in my Cayenne is great when shifting manually. It's just not so great when left in full auto. I was just surprised at the different 0-60 times for the Boxter with Tip though. It's the same with the Boxter S too. The Tip is about .8 seconds slower than manual 0-60. The 911 Carrera 4S cuts that difference in half, and the Turbo cuts it to .3 according to the website. With differences that small I could see a really good Tip driver making up for them. I just wonder why 0-60 times are so different for the Boxter and Cayman, but not the 911. Is it the increased power?

I'd point out that the preference for a manual over an automatic has little, and perhaps nothing, to do with how fast you get to 60 mph. It's the experience of getting there. As you pointed out, it seems the gap in acceleration between today's automatics and manuals is decreasing quite a bit.

My wife doesn't quite get my desire for a manual in my potential 530 purchase - "Isn't a BMW fast enough with an automatic?" "Well, yes, but...oh never mind..."

dewey · August 2006

But motor industry experts said that Ford might have to package Jaguar with its four-wheel drive marque Land-Rover to attract a big, established volume car maker

Rumored suitor? Renault. Sounds like Ghosn's ambitions are beginning to resemble Napoleon's. A Renault-Nissan-GM-Jaguar-LandRover Alliance sounds like a beast that will be too humungous for its own good. The article is linked below.

SOURCE: THE INDEPENDENT
link title

james27 · August 2006

Not everyone is interested in power. The M is signficantly bigger than the G series. Both have adequate power. It is not unusual for the sales to drop a little prior to the newer model being introduced. I think that there was a group of people waiting for the M to come out in its initial year, and things became more predictable. The initial glowing press got more people to consider the M. Because it is no longer new, there isn't anywhere near as much press. Some out of sight, out of mind is going on here.

The M will continue as a viable product for awhile yet.

rich545 · August 2006

I'm not saying the preference for manual has anything to do with 0-60 times. The discussion is about why the Shipo's 328i with stick was able to beat the Boxter with tip that he raced from a toll booth. That kind of race has everything to do with 0-60 times in that the toll on the TZ Bridge is about 500 yards from the exit they both took. I love manual transmissions as well (in fact, my Cay S is only the second non-manual car I have ever owned) so I know about the joys of manual driving. I was just surprised that for the Boxter specifically the 0-60 times were very different for the Tip vs. manual tranny.

bw45sport · August 2006

Statistics released by the German automobile association, ADAC, show that Mercedes passenger cars are among the most reliable vehicles in Germany

This is an oft cited statistic. Unfortunately, it only measures one component of reliability, breakdowns. While Mercedes has suffered woeful problems related to electronics, their mechanical systems appear to be rock solid as ever, hence no breakdowns.

Mercedes was my brand of choice for over twenty years and I never had a breakdown. However, the advanced control systems of the newer cars that rely so heavily on electronics malfunction far too often. The C-Class, "the most reliable" medium-sized car was miserable during the first year of its most recent overhaul. Over 30 percent of owners purchasing a C-Class that year reported "significant" electrical problems during the first year of ownership.

While they deliberately avoided a "kill shot", Fifth Gear's attempt to stop an old E-Class wagon is quite entertaining and does illustrate the incredible build quality of pre-merger Benzes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bIV_hHPAFQ&eurl=

merc1 · August 2006

The only thing that video really shows is that a Mercedes was a much simpler car back then. The physical build of a of certain Mercedes has changed dramatically for sure (first generation ML, W220 S-Class and 2001 C-Class comes to mind), so I think the fair thing to say is that they aren't all built the same anymore. Some of the newer models are physically built as robust as car can be without going overboard and paying dearly in increased weight. Also, the W124 had bascially what is about as sophisticated as truck engine (I6) compared to MB's current engines. The only thing comparable today is MB's iron-block I6 diesel engine. No car would be able to withstand water in the engine and the other things that car went through and still turn over the way cars are built today so it isn't just Mercedes-Benz. Also he electronics on the W124 are primitive by today's standards. The merger had very little or anything to do with how Benzes were built. Mercedes downgraded themselves starting in 1994 with the C-Class that came out that year. Now the ML that everyone likes to point too did come out in 1997, but it was already a done deal by the time Chrysler joined the mix. The bumpy road test that they subjected that W124 wagon through is the same one that most car makers used today to test durability, either that or they have a "shaker" machine that duplicates that kind of stress indoors.

M

lexusguy · August 2006

Rumored suitor? Renault. Sounds like Ghosn's ambitions are beginning to resemble Napoleon's. A Renault-Nissan-GM-Jaguar-LandRover Alliance sounds like a beast that will be too humungous for its own good. The article is linked below.

At least that would give Jag access to a decent V6. A Jagified VQ would probably be good for well over 300hp. They'll never reach that with a Taurus engine.

designman · August 2006

I just wonder why 0-60 times are so different for the Boxter and Cayman, but not the 911. Is it the increased power?

You will always hear the rationale to be the difference in torque and its true, but ultimately the gearing and shift points in the Porsche Tips are not optimal. Theres really no reason why most cars should have less disparity in acceleration between auto and manual. I guess Porsche couldnt give a flying fajita because 85%-90% of their sports cars sold have manual transmissions.

BTW in normal situations, the Boxster Tips start in 2nd gear. Not sure about the 911s. Is this the case with your Cayenne S? I had one as a loaner once but forgot to take notice. The SUV is one thing, but with the Boxster I am sure I would be quite miserable with the Tip.

Low end torque with a nicely geared auto transmission that has optimal shift points equates to point-and-shoot acceleration. We dont see that in Boxsters. You have to be between 4500 and 7200 RPM (redline) and precise shift points to get max acceleration. Below that the car just doesnt move. So if someone is not familiar with the transmission and engine power curves he aint beating too many cars.

Well were really OT now thanks to our pal Shipo and his duel at the friggin Tappan Zee bridge. ;-) Rich if you would like to continue I guess we should move to a Porsche thread.

Oh, one more thing now that Ive already risked getting sent to the spanking machine in the principals office by digressing. Coincidentally, the headline on the front page of todays local paper is about shipworms eating the piers that hold up the causeway of the Tappan Zee bridge.

designman · August 2006

I didnt think it was to much of a stretch to put together that automatic is the word. Hopefully i haven't offended anyone with that.....automatic, automatic, automatic. OK, back to hitchhiking

Thank you for explaining yourself. Your reference to the A word as ungentlemanly suggested another word in my mind, something less flattering than merely an automatic transmission. Ill leave it at that with no offense taken. We move forward.

dewey · August 2006

In Wall Street Journal today there is a rumor that a Korean auto maker(Hyundai most likely) is interested in Jaguar.

What better way for Hyundai to make a splash in the luxury segment, IMO. Also the high quality and reliability of the Hyundai marque may prove to be a great a benefit to Jaguar . Only problem is Hyundai will have to work overtime in developing engines and platforms that are suitable for Jaguars (good luck)

lexusguy · August 2006

What better way for Hyundai to make a splash in the luxury segment, IMO. Also the high quality and reliability of the Hyundai marque may prove to be a great a benefit fir the Jaguar marque. Only problem is Hyundai will have to work overtime in developing engines and platforms that are suitable for Jaguars (good luck)

That doesn't seem likely. Hyundai was basically put on hold while the chairman was in prison, and they have a lot of work to do just to get things back to normal. Not a great time for a major aquisition.

rich545 · August 2006

Yeah, we are off topic a bit so this is the last I'll post about it here. Yes, the Cayenne S starts in 2nd (all Cayennes do) which is really annoying. I often find myself "tipping" down to first just to get moving more quickly (obviously it takes a good amount of power to get that 5,500 lbs moving). The poor TZ Bridge. I grew up in Sleepy Hollow so the thing dominated my landscape for quite some time. I bet Shipo and his buddy didn't get to race TO the toll given how backed up it gets!

shipo · August 2006

"I bet Shipo and his buddy didn't get to race TO the toll given how backed up it gets!"

That's a bet that you'd win. ;-)

I commuted from Bergen County New Jersey to Elmsford for over 5 years, and I gotta tell ya, I don't miss it.

Best Regards,
Shipo

sfcharlie · August 2006

Audi A6 sold 1,468 in July, 2005, and 1,652 this July -- a 12.6% increase. Up 8.7% for the first 7 months of 2006.

MB S-Class has sold 17,817 units so far this year, up an astonishing 95.8% over first 7 months of last year. Maybe that's where the action is for MB, as people await 2007 E-series.

BMW 5-series sold 31,309 units this year, up from 27,765 last year, for a 12.76% increase. But 7 series only sold 10,831 units, up from 9,726 last years for only an 11% increase.

So people are buying more big Mercs and mid-size BMWs.

hpowders · August 2006

"So people are buying more big Mercs and mid-size BMWs".

Exactly!

Should be interesting to compare the new S Class sales figures vs the 2007 LS say from about May 2007 going forward.

Funny how the auto-rags did their best to trash the "ugly" Bangle 5 Series with its "frustrating to use" iDrive and rather "stark" interior.

Obviously, the buying/leasing public thought otherwise, pretty much rejecting their "built to out-perform" champion, the Infiniti M.
And it can't be because of BMW's good leasing deals, because the leasing deals are pretty good for the Infiniti M also.

purplem46 · August 2006

RE: "...auto-rags did their best to trash the "ugly" Bangle 5 Series with its "frustrating to use" iDrive and rather "stark" interior

Remember, beauty is in the eye of the beerholder. I don't think BMW's are as nice looking as they were previously (especially the Dame Edna headlights), but I understand why people buy them. They are just great cars.

jrock65 · August 2006

On July 31, 2006, Nissan trademarked the following:

M40
M50
M55
M60

This follows on the heels of the trademarking of "FX50" in April 2006. Which followed on the heels of "G37, FX37, and M35" in January 2006.

So, it looks like there is definitely a new or revised V8 engine in the works.

My guesses:

2008 G37 coupe w/ 325 hp
2008 M37 sedan w/ 325 hp
2008 M50 sedan w/ 400 hp
2009 M60 sedan w/ 500 hp (presumably to go up against the M5 and E63, but I don't think it'll happen)

The M40 trademark is interesting. It could be possible that the M will get a 4.0L V6, but I doubt it. I think they just trademarked it with the "throw in the kitchen sink" mentality.

lexusguy · August 2006

The M40 trademark is interesting. It could be possible that the M will get a 4.0L V6, but I doubt it. I think they just trademarked it with the "throw in the kitchen sink" mentality.

Yeah, I dont get that one either. Nissan already has the VQ40DE, but its a truck engine designed for torque, not horsepower. Perhaps "M40" could mean a turbocharged engine like the GT-R?

merc1 · August 2006

I think they're just covering all possible combinations, I doubt we'll see half of those come to market. For some reason "G37" just doesn't sound as good to me as "G35". I bet BMW would have a problem with "M50" though. Mercedes trademarked SL69, S69 and CL69 a little while back. I can't imagine what the hp would be for such models.

Then again Nissan is hell bent on Infiniti having more hp than the Japanese competition so they'll be a revised V8 for the M's facelift for sure.

M

lexusguy · August 2006

For some reason "G37" just doesn't sound as good to me as "G35". I bet BMW would have a problem with "M50" though. Mercedes trademarked SL69, S69 and CL69 a little while back. I can't imagine what the hp would be for such models.

I agree, G37 doesnt have a great ring to it. I think Mercedes is probably mad that VW, by way of Bugatti, has 1000hp and they don't. Mercedes doesn't like to be outdone in the crazy German hp wars.

merc1 · August 2006

I think Mercedes is probably mad that VW, by way of Bugatti, has 1000hp and they don't. Mercedes doesn't like to be outdone in the crazy German hp wars.

Lol...true!

M

drtravel · August 2006

Obviously, the buying/leasing public thought otherwise, pretty much rejecting their "built to out-perform" champion, the Infiniti M. And it can't be because of BMW's good leasing deals, because the leasing deals are pretty good for the Infiniti M also.

The public has actually embraced the Infiniti M. Starting from scratch Infiniti built a car that will probably be the best selling non-German LPS. Even better considering that a few years back Infiniti was on the brink as a car company.

German cars define the LPS market and have exceedingly strong brands and loyal followings - to expect another car (whatever brand) to come close to their sales figures is not realistic. Yes the BMW 5-series is the #1 seller in this segment but the reasons for their sales success are complex. Just because BMW sells more than Infiniti doesn't necessarily mean their car is "superior". There are many more factors the general public considers when purchasing a car, I'm just not sure how many BMW buyers ever move past the old-prestige and badge level. How many realistically considered other brands?

17 months ago I compared the 530 and M35 and choose the M35. I have never regretted my decision and when ever I pull up to a 5 at a stop light I feel even better about my decision. But I know you feel the same about your 545 - so we're both winners!

hpowders · August 2006

I drove the M35 before I decided on my (or, should I say BMW's BMW). One of my neighbors has one and one of my doctors has one too, and I always admire them when I see them (the cars).

In 2 years when my lease is almost up, I plan to drive it again.

It will be on my short list.

lexusguy · August 2006

German cars define the LPS market and have exceedingly strong brands and loyal followings - to expect another car (whatever brand) to come close to their sales figures is not realistic. Yes the BMW 5-series is the #1 seller in this segment but the reasons for their sales success are complex. Just because BMW sells more than Infiniti doesn't necessarily mean their car is "superior".

Agree. Infiniti doesn't have BMW's dealer network, advertising budget, or prestigious badge, and they don't even come close to the BMW Group in sales. There's just no way they could move 5K Ms a month. The M already represents 20-25% of Infiniti's sales per month. In contrast, the GS is less than 10% for Lexus, and the RL is a measily 5% for Acura. Its doing very well.

sfcharlie · August 2006

Business Week (Aug 7) ran a cover story on "Best Global Brands". The main point is that a percentage of a company's revenue can be credited to "brand." Toyota is ranked #7 (among all corporations, not just car companies) in terms of "brand value". Mercedes is next (among car companies) with a rank of #10, followed by BMW at #15, but it had the largest brand value rating jump from 2005 to 2006.

I think this supports comments which argue that part of BMW's 5-series sales success is simply that "BMW" evokes "brand quality" in the collective consciousness of consumers. It would be hard to substantiate that good sales of the 5-series prove that auto-consumers (unlike professional car critics) love the new Bangle design. It could, however, be used to argue that something about BMW overrides any (if there is any) ambivalence people might have about the new design.

lexusguy · August 2006

From C&D: "For 2007, the Acura TL line will sprout a Type-S boasting a more powerful engine and a sport-tuned suspension. According to The Boston Globe, power output grows to 286, a gain of 28 hp, and torque rises 23 lb-ft. to 256. Previously, Acura offered a TL A-spec handling and appearance package, although it offered no bump in power. While the A-spec was a dealer-installed kit, the Type-S is a factory-produced regular model."

Obviously Acura feels threatened by the significantly more powerful IS350 and G35, but I think they are forgetting that those cars are RWD. The last thing the TL needs is more power. This car will probably make the 9-3 Viggen look like a gentle puppy by comparison.

merc1 · August 2006

And the power increase is hardly worth all the effort IMO. Acura seems to really be losing it. The IS350 and G35 are still going to be faster and like you point out their power is going to the correct wheels.

Here is where Acura's dependence on V6s and fwd platforms hurts them the most. The TL-S couldn't be any more powerful without AWD and if they add AWD to a TL, the RL would be rendered even more pointless than it already is.

One good RWD platform specific to Acura and a V8 to be shared with the next NSX and RL would "fix" all of this IMO. However knowning Honda and the current gas prices hoopla Honda likely couldn't even bring themselves to do a V8 for anything besides a sports car.

M

lexusguy · August 2006

One good RWD platform specific to Acura and a V8 to be shared with the next NSX and RL would "fix" all of this IMO. However knowning Honda and the current gas prices hoopla Honda likely couldn't even bring themselves to do a V8 for anything besides a sports car.

I agree. Its rather strange that Honda is willing to give the S2000 a dedicated, RWD platform, but they wont do one for the Legend\RL, which is a much higher volume car.

I think with the next TL, they should follow Audi's lead. Give the car SH-AWD so it can actually deal with the power, and then push the engine behind the front axle to give it proper weight distribution. Couple that with Honda's slick six-speed manual, and they could have a real 3 fighter on their hands.

merc1 · August 2006

Its rather strange that Honda is willing to give the S2000 a dedicated, RWD platform, but they wont do one for the Legend\RL, which is a much higher volume car.

I've often wondered why they never built a small sports sedan and coupe from the S2000's platform. The TSX could have been such a car.

M

bookedup · August 2006

I want to add a CD Changer to my 03 530i (Manual). The cheapest I can find it from a BMW dealer is $587 plus 5% state sales tax. This vehicle is pre-wired for an OEM changer and I have seen adds on the net to acquire it cheaper but am hesitant buying it on-line. The price looks more attractive but can I trust them? I worry about putting my money in a dark hole and never seeing it again. Additionally, I don't know who is on the other end of that phone line. I have concerns about credit card fraud. Any one able to advise?

Thanx in advance,

Rob

markcincinnati · August 2006

As one who spends thousands per year at a variety of sites, and have been doing so for years, I don't know where to begin.

You do have to be careful -- but, you have to be careful when you hand your card to a server to pay for your dinner. You have to worry about so many areas in life these days -- you may get phished, you could have someone spy on your computer and on and on.

All these concerns are real.

Yet, it was only a couple of years ago that it was super simple to get your credit card number when the self-serve gas pumps printed out the whole CC number on the receipt.

Web sites, generally, can be vetted -- you can set up an "e-wallet" with specific companies or with your credit card vendor for purchased you will make.

The majors do have protection and financial fail safe's for you (Fraud Divisions) -- they are on your side and are usually 100% forgiving without question. Amex is very strong in being your advocate and your shield from fraud.

If you buy "X" on line with most credit cards and you are in some way defrauded, your Credit Card company will don their Super Anti-fraud Suit and stand up for truth, justice, your credit card and the 'merican way, etc.

This is not really the place for much more of this discussion, but billions of transactions happen via "e" commerce every year. Only a very tiny % of them go sour.

This may not be sufficient assurance for you. I can understand that. My mother in law won't shop on line. My cousin won't even use an ATM.

Takes all kinds.

bookedup · August 2006

Thanx Mark. I appreciate the prompt ant thorough response. I'll certainly consider it in making this call. Does anyone have any experience buying after market CD changers from other than a dealer? I don't want to pay an extra $200 dollars for something with an "official" BMW badge on it just to sit inside a closed compartment in my trunk,

All responses appreciated,

Rob

jimbres · August 2006

To Mark's good advice I'd like to add my recommendation that you avoid using debit cards for online or phone purchases. The consumer protection built into Federal law is more robust for credit card transactions than it is for debit card transactions. FWIW, I've been doing business online since the pre-Web GEnie, Prodigy & CompuServe days, & I've never had a problem.

Please keep us posted on what you turn up. I'm interested because the trunk-mounted CD changer in my '01 330i died a couple of months ago. The head unit display reads "NO CD" when I try to play a disc, & I can't eject the cartridge from the player. After charging me $50 to look at it, my dealer asked me for another $285 to cover off-site repairs. I declined this offer, thinking that I could find a new unit for less money. I'd be even more interested in a solution that would let me play MP3-encoded CDs or allow me to jack my iPod directly into the car's sound system. (Right now, I'm using a cassette adapter to connect my iPod, but I'm not thrilled about the sound quality.) BMW offers an Apple-designed iPod interface, but only for cars built after 2001.

Any ideas, folks?

lexusguy · August 2006

I'd be even more interested in a solution that would let me play MP3-encoded CDs or allow me to jack my iPod directly into the car's sound system. (Right now, I'm using a cassette adapter to connect my iPod, but I'm not thrilled about the sound quality.) BMW offers an Apple-designed iPod interface, but only for cars built after 2001.

One possibility is an FM modulated universal add-on CD changer. Sony has a 10-disc MP3 CD capable model that retails for $200. You could also try an FM modulator for your iPod, rather than the cassette. I don't recommend replacing your headunit. It would be cheaper to just have the dealer fix your CD player.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-dQy5skx4wun/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=610&I=158CDX565M-

drtravel · August 2006

I've always believed that brand plays a BIG part in consumer's buying decisions - this applies to all luxury goods not just LPS's. Many are very status conscious, so yes they will buy a BMW or MB over a non-German LPS purely because of the brand. In fact, many BMW or MB buyers never even considered the alternatives or acknowledge their existence. How could any other car possibly compete with their beloved brand?

I was always amazed that when I was at the BMW and MB service departments (yes I've owned both) and talked to other owners (who were less than satisfied with their German engineering) about their future buying plans, that many of these same disgruntled customers were only considering replacing their vehicle with another BMW and/or MB. When I mentioned other alternatives, many didn't even know of their existence but even now they still were not going to actually consider any of them. And these were all very intelligent people.

I don't have a problem with consumers choosing luxury products based primarily on their brand. Hell I plead guilty also. We are all making life style choices and what we drive makes a statement about who we are and how we want others to perceive us. I do have a problem with some who deny that brand was a factor. A majority of BMW owners choose the smaller engines with (god please don't strike me down) an automatic transmission. They really are not driving enthusiasts and their driving needs would probably be better served by an Accord or Camry - except for that German status thing. Are they really buying the ultimate driving machine or it's status?

Curious about Toyota's brand. Of course they are marketing quality of design, MPG and reliability. They are not in the status realm. Because a majority of buyers can't afford luxury makes, Toyota's marketing is perfect for a company that may one day be the best selling brand in the world.

jimbres · August 2006

Thanks for the suggestion, but I've tried FM modulators & found them wanting. Here in the NYC metro area, we have so many FM stations that it's impossible to find an unused frequency. Cassette adapters actually yield better sound.

warthog · August 2006

For that amount of money, you can buy an iPod that will hold many thousands of songs more than a CD changer and purchase and have installed a little device that connects the iPod so that it plays through the Bimmer's radio. The connection can be installed in the glove box, if you wish to keep the iPod out of sight, or have the wire emerge from the center console (no drilling required) and keep the iPod handy. I use this solution and it works great.

lexusguy · August 2006

Curious about Toyota's brand. Of course they are marketing quality of design, MPG and reliability. They are not in the status realm. Because a majority of buyers can't afford luxury makes, Toyota's marketing is perfect for a company that may one day be the best selling brand in the world.

Exactly. Toyota knows that the vast majority of the auto buying public, at least in the US, are not driving enthusiasts. They have no idea how a car works, they just want things like simple controls, comfort, and reliability, which are all things Toyota does very well. Thats why the Camry managed to outsell the Dodge Ram last year. Things will only get better for Toyota as people who don't really need a big F-150 or Silverado stop buying them, and start going back to cars. Toyota will say, how 'bout a Camry?

markcincinnati · August 2006

I closed in on a new BMW 5 series, shiny black, but, hmmmm, something looked a little outta place on its rump.

Holy cow, Batman!

It was a new Camry.

Now, don't go thinkin' this boy's never seen the new Camry and not at least had the inkling that it was a shameless copy of the BMW bustle-hind-end. But, as I was some distance away and it was on the exit ramp I was about to take, I didn't at first note the "T" on its bum.

As if Toyota needs to sell more of these things, I would assume its shameless flattery division will certainly get some credit for the darn near rip off styling.

Toyota MAY build great, wonderful, "I'm not worthy" cars for all I know -- but they are certainly unoriginal.

I remember when I saw the 1986 Taurus and it was being advertised here in Cincinnapolis as the "American Audi 5000S."

Sheeeeesh!

lexusguy · August 2006

Toyota MAY build great, wonderful, "I'm not worthy" cars for all I know -- but they are certainly unoriginal.

I don't think anyone has ever praised Toyota for styling. The Calty studio did a great job with the SC400 back in '91, and since then.. well..

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