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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    As a card carrying geek (or at least a member of older-geeks-USA), the Acura has very little geek appeal from what I can see.

    My friends, my non-Audi, but often BMW driving/owning friends have, for years, called Audis the "technofile's" car (which is pretty close to geek.)

    This WAS because the Audi cockpits had full gauges, all wheel drive, knobs and push and pull buttons/levers and the word quattro spelled out in the defroster wire in the rear window and 5 cylinder turbo charged engines, then 5 valve per cylinder engines and other somewhat geeky or geek-like differences.

    True, they weren't Saab geeky or Volvo "odd" but they were the "under class" (according to my buddies) when compared to BMW and Mercedes.

    There was some truth to that perhaps from 1978 up to and including perhaps at least the 1998 A6. The worm started to turn (here in North America at least) around 2000 and the new A8L, C6 A6, RS this that and the other and even the S's have pretty much completed that turning -- although the upcoming generation where more and more of the quattros are rwd biased and better weight balanced will do even more.

    Moreover, since "everybody" has AWD and it is pretty much assumed you must offer AWD to play anymore, well Audi is just one of the pack of AWD LPS cars.

    I fell off my chair when I found that the upcoming BMW 7 will be offered with X drive. That essentially will mean that almost all Audis, BMW's and Mercedes will be offered for sale with AWD. There will be but a few holdouts in that regard.

    The RL is, with my hand raised to testify, NOT a geek car.

    The RS 6 was/is pretty geeky, but even then, NOT THAT geeky. The Jag (not often mentioned here) seems to me to be a bit of an odd duck, perhaps a bit old fashioned.

    I would assume the Cadillac and the Jaguar would be polling higher age numbers than the Acura RL.

    Acura -- for right or wrong -- is regularly proclaimed to be "gunning" for Audi and then BMW. The RL was supposed to be an A6 killer, the RDX is supposed to out "X" the BMW X3, and even the TL, supposedly was positioned against the A4, which is odd (in this country) since virtually all A4's are AWD. And, the TL never could win a staring contest against a BMW 3 series RWD or X drive.

    The RL was lauded -- perhaps it still would be, were it the subject of reviews -- loud and regularly near its birth. It has fizzled in the market apparently.

    It is too eager to show its Accord family resemblance is my personal take on this situation.

    And, who, in the wide wide world of sports has the demographic statistics to even begin to discuss the race, creed, color, country of origin, culture or language of the buyers of these LPS cars.

    Is Infiniti or Acura or BMW more or less a "Mexican's" choice? Would a "Canadian" not buy a Cadillac? Does this data exist and does it matter unless such and such a car is known to be "the old person's cars" or "the black person's car" etc?

    Cadillac has worked and continues to work to shed its octenigarian's choice image, but that is not exactly an ethnicity demographic, eh?

    Here is our Big Town, you see lots of folks from all walks of life driving all sorts of stuff. Of course we even have hillbillies driving Bimmers, but I assume they also drive Acuras -- kidding!

    Acura's RL seems to me to be too much like an Accord, a bit too small too. Further, it has not yet been able to be seen in any respect that I can tell as having much "P" in the LPS world.

    I don't know if a V8 would cure that -- as the reality of the situation would be that even with a V8 on the option sheet, 90% of the customers would get the 6 (at least based on the internal documents my Audi buddy showed me -- which basically said, something like "90+% of the cars in the A6's class are sold with 6 cylinder engines, that is where to focus first.")

    Acura needs a new pricing scheme, a new advertising scheme, some performance bits, and most of all, some TIME. :surprise:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    from characterizing owners by ethnicity or any other trait. There is no generalization that can not be refuted by some interpretation of statistics and there is no point in climbing on to that slippery slope.

    We're here to talk about the CARS not our imaginary OPINIONS of what demographic may or may not prefer which brand.

    Thanks.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Geeks have feelings too! :blush:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Acura needs a new pricing scheme, a new advertising scheme, some performance bits, and most of all, some TIME.

    Acura needs more models as well. They've currently got 3 sedans in small, medium, and medium, and two soft-roader SUVs in small and medium. 5 models are great if you're Saab, but not if you want to compete with Lexus, Audi, BMW, etc. Acura has this "if the going gets tough, give up" mentality that they need to change.
  • lansdownemikelansdownemike Member Posts: 54
    When the RL was introduced it was the most interesting LPS car around for a little while.

    Yes it was small in the back seat and the trunk, and yes the styling was no reason to jump up and down. But its SH-AWD was, for AWD fans, really interesting--effective, geeky, and a big improvement on FWD handling. And don't forget that its 5.1 surround system was very unusual, and for those of us (geeks?) with a collection of DVD Audio disks, it was very neat. Since we were going to get Nav, the fact that we didn't have to pay extra was nice, and then in 2006 the traffic reporting was a great (geeky) feature.

    Then the M35x came along and blew it out of the water. There is only one area where the RL has something that the M doesn't: the traffic reporting. And the M does everything else better. When the RL reliability issues became well known, that was the ball game.

    The history of this one is important, and looking at the RL with 20-20 hindsight is less than useful. Talking about the Accord platform is interesting, but pretty academic. Relating how the Germans are better handling is interesting, true, and irrelevant to the RL's demise, since (as is so immensely clear on this board) it was never going to capture much of that fan base.

    What Honda/Acura needs is a new car built on a new platform. Nothing less will do.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I would not agree that the TL is perceived in the market to be an exceptionally "technologically advanced" car. It doesn't mean it's not, however. You state that the RL is a "gadget-laden" Accord. To many, the perception of "gadget-laden" is akin to being "geek friendly."

    Car companies clearly market to specific demographic segments. There is a reason why a higher percentage of Hyundais are driven by African Americans, for example. This is a fact. I am an African American. You perceive my comments to somehow be elitist or bigoted. Relax. It was well known within marketing/advertising circles that Jaguar was marketing specifically to the gay/lesbian and Black markets about 2 years ago. Again, this is a fact. You can agree or disagree, but let's not get into suggesting that I have an elitist agenda when I don't. It's fine that we disagree (in fact, I'm glad that we do).

    My point with the lease/buy equation is nothing more than....it's my opinion. Isn't that what these boards are for? Again, agree/disagree all you want, but please don't attempt to characterize me. The fact is, 75%-85% of luxury cars are leased. You seemed to agree that Acura has offered "crappy lease deals." Couldn't that partially explain why RL volume is down?

    Thanks for suggesting that the RL has 5 shortcomings. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but let me know how you REALLY feel about this car. LOL.

    The volume of Infiniti FX and G is lower than the volume of TSX, TL, and MDX. Substantially lower. Oh, and I totally forgot about the Integra/RSX. And for a while the NSX was outselling the Q45. Just look at the numbers before you start typing. It's not that complicated.

    Quality is a function of 3 factors....(1) things actually breaking down with the car, (2) inherent design problems, regardless of whether the car truly breaks down, and (3) perceptions of quality based on the ownership experience. Sometimes (3) is powerful enough to overcome (1) and (2). My opinion (nothing more than that) is that (3) is a factor with the RL, especially when the existing demographic of the RL owner is older, more conservative, and not as discriminating based on the design of the previous Legend/RL.

    These are just my opinions, dude. Relax.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Speculating about demographics is a morass of quicksand waiting to happen. Let's leave these things out of future posts, please, and just talk about the cars. Thanks!

    (Mark - I know, I'm a geek too! :blush: )
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Lansdownemike.....Thank you for your well-thought out and (IMHO) accurate *opinion*!

    Sometimes this LPS board feels like a cult consisting of 8 people who keep coming back to drink more kool aid and bask in each other's glows. But I must admit there is great learning and insights from some of the posts.

    And (unintended) humor.

    Agree with you that a new platform is what the RL needs. Honda has to decide whether to take this car sufficiently up-market, and to make the necessary investment given their smaller resources.

    There are some Honda mules of the Pilot and Ridgeline showing up that may suggest that a V8 may be in the works. Or possibly a hybrid. It's inevitable that the next RL will offer a V8 if it expects to seriously play.

    The current RL is also not marketed outside North America and Japan. Another decision is whether they push the next model into Europe. I don't see that happening right now, but it must be another decision being mulled. The Honda Legend was sold in Europe, and was basically a bomb. Toyota has slowly launched the Lexus brand in Japan, with mixed results so far. It's very difficult to break into a "new" market and to change customer perceptions, even if it's your own country...
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Ohhhh, a "morass of quicksand..." I like it.

    So, when does your next book get published. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    Hang in there guy. I enjoy your posts.

    I especially connected with the "cult consisting of 8 people who keep coming back to drink more kool aid and bask in each other's glows."

    It happens in most of the long-standing boards, & I'm at least as guilty as the next person in perpetuating it.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Thanks...it's sometimes confusing to figure our whether one is "worthy" (or has a large enough ego) to be accepted into the LPS board. The posts can be long, hard to follow, self-promoting, and intimidating. And the emoticons are way overused.

    I do appreciate your many posts. They are spot on and don't take themselves so seriously!

    My wife loves her RL, and that is all that matters in my world sometimes. We just bought an Odyssey Touring and it is a rather cool minivan, according to our nanny. I just blissfully shift away in my 6-speed Accord. Perhaps my Honda bias is too obvious!

    We used to get posts from a soldier who was in Iraq. I worry that he is okay. Haven't heard from him in a while.

    Best Regards.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Oh, and I totally forgot about the Integra/RSX.

    RSX is going out of production, and will not be replaced. This is what I was getting at before. Acura did the same thing back in '03 with the CL. "We've got tough competition coming, lets quit the market".
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That is why Acura is forever sitting on the porch watching the big dogs play. No coupes, no convertibles, nothing but sedans and suvs. Yawn. Honda is going to have to change their views about the automobile in order to let Acura thrive. Honda just can't escape thinking small and sedan and now light trucks as you stated.

    M
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .98% of the time we talk about cars and 99% of the time all this stuff from most of us is entirely subjective.

    A few comments, perhaps even this one, need to be zapped as being in some way off topic or inappropriate. If there are facts that someone marketing an LPS car (in this case) might know, and if it is somehow relevant to a point, I say let it stand.

    What is that saying, from Mark Twain, "if you don't read, you are un-informed, if you do, you may be mis-informed," or something like that?

    We're here to bloviate and even pontificate as far as I can tell.

    For all I know, geeks (apparently NOT a protected class or minority) may or may not have the financial wherewithal to buy LPS cars. I figure it just doesn't matter -- and there is no reliable source of such info that I can find, and believe me I have tried -- so I care not, any further, to comment.

    Hey, my lawyer wife wonders if BMW's X3's are "girls cars," she says this after noting that her boss (a middle aged male) drove a pink Nissan Pulsar and she thought "something just ain't right about that." Now she is concerned that the X3 buyer has been stereotyped (she just can't stand assigning genders to cars, apparently -- so if the X3 is indeed a "girls car" she won't have another one.)

    Good grief.

    They're cars -- let's bloviate [and pontificate] on that, for pity's sake.

    Emotorcon omitted for brevity (as if) and due to apparent overuse and suspected misuse (I represent that remark.)

    Kirk out.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Totally agree, Mark. I sincerely apologize for getting us off tangent. Let's get back to the cars...
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    At its core, Honda is a relatively small company without the resources of a GM, Ford, Toyota, or even Nissan and DC. When evaluating Acura, it's important to understand it in the context of what it has to work with. As long as Honda chooses to remain a relatively independent company without the overt financial alliances of the other bigger fish, it won't exactly be able to do everything it may want to do with Acura.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Two of my friends went from German to Japanese cars. One, had an Audi 5000S, the other an E Class Mercedes. They both said, visiting rights at the repair shop just didn't cut it. They both switched to Acura, one the RL one the MDX. They don't know each other as far as I can tell.

    One is a PhD in Chemistry (Proctor), the other a CEO of a regional software company here in Porkopolis.

    When I ask them, they say their German cars were "better" -- but so unreliable that they just "gave up" on the notion of having another.

    What was that guy's name, Demming? Yea, now wouldn't it be something if the Germans (and the Americans for that matter) could adopt Demming the way the Japanese did?

    Of course I read a BW article that said,"no matter what" the Americans simply have a legacy of retirement benefits to fund that is like an anchor around their ankles and they are in pretty deep water (or something to that effect.)

    Hmm, the Germans seem (with 2 Germans in our garage, one Audi and one Bimmer) to have much higher quality NOW than even back in 2003. Maybe they read one of Demming's books or something.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,182
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  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    At its core, Honda is a relatively small company without the resources of a GM, Ford, Toyota, or even Nissan and DC. When evaluating Acura, it's important to understand it in the context of what it has to work with. As long as Honda chooses to remain a relatively independent company without the overt financial alliances of the other bigger fish, it won't exactly be able to do everything it may want to do with Acura.

    That just isn't true. Honda Motor Company is a very heavy hitter. They are the second largest auto company in the world by market cap, 62B to Toyota's 180B. Here's how the major auto makers rank.

    1. Toyota - 180B
    2. Honda - 62B
    3. DCX - 53B
    4. Nissan - 49B
    5. BMW - 34B
    6. VW AG - 31B

    The idea that Ford and GM have loads of cash to throw around and Honda is a "little guy" is simply rediculous. Ford and GM are small fries, 12th and 15th place by market cap. Additionally, Honda is the second most profitable automaker in the world, raking in a cool 5B in net income on 85B in revenue, compared to Nissan's 4B on 74B in revenue. DCX, GM and Ford have twice Honda's revenue, but none can come close to matching Honda's profitability.

    The truth is simply that HMC is extremely conservative. Much more so than Toyota. They can afford to do whatever they want, but the word "risk" is just not in the Honda dictionary.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Thanks!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    As a proud lessee of a 2005 BMW 545i, I see that Edmunds got it right:

    "New engine, new name, the 545i becomes the 550i, but the car's personality remains the same. A drive in the 550i is an experience of quality, satisfaction and exclusivity."

    Yup! Pretty much what I have found driving my 545i over the last 13 wonderful months.

    Thank you BMW!

    What puzzles me is why anybody out there would choose any LPS other than a BMW?

    Another one of life's unsolved mysteries, I reckon. :confuse:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Um, maybe because not everyone has your exact set of priorities, needs, wishes, beliefs and such? :)

    Anyway, for those who would like to read it here's the link the article you quote: Follow-Up Test: 2006 BMW 550i.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Ford's and GM's market cap is explained by their battered stock price. They are not #12 and #15 in relative size, vs. Honda's #2. GM is the 3rd largest corporation in the world, and Ford is #4, based on revenues. They dwarf Honda in terms of revenues and units (although they may not be making money on those units).

    Honda is the #1 manufacturer of motorcycles in the world, and sells a variety of power products and engines. In 2005, they sold 10.5 million motorcycles, 5.3 million power products, and 3.2 million cars/trucks. They recently announced production of small airplanes and aircraft motors. They more resemble GE than they do GM.

    In terms of luxury performance cars, I would still maintain that they are a relatively small player, and significantly smaller than Toyota/Lexus and the Big 3. If the LS were to fail, it would be a disaster for Toyota. If the RL fails, Honda can twitch a little, but eventually move on without losing too much sleep (assuming Honda execs don't read the opinions on this LPS board). (Joke)

    But agree with Lexusguy that such "smallness" is driven by conservatism, independence, and product range beyond automobiles.

    Honda announced that in 2008, they will be expanding the Acura brand into Japan.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I can think of a number of reasons. But that certainly doesn't mean your choice is any less appropriate for YOU!

    I am delighted to hear that you are delighted, in fact!
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I have read and heard is that Honda/Acura is a small but very profitable company. I hope they can get some platform/driving dynamic things worked out. I really doubt it's a budget problem. I think it's more of an entrenched mentality that says if it ain't broke [financially speaking] then don't fix it.
    Anyway, welcome any new posters. [or maybe just new to me]

    Viva la RL[He says to himself in his tiny little head :blush:]
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Thank you for such a delightful post! :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Mystery solved! :)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Ha ha! :P
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    It really goes to show just how focused and efficient HMC is. Market cap is a function of (expected) profitability . . . Honda is making a lot of profit on relatively small revenue by being efficient in managing a few models and platforms. It is expanding (e.g. MDX, CR-V, Odyssey are all new categories created in the last decade, as far as Honda is concerned), but give it more time, IMHO, it will have products farther removed from its core competence, which is solid midsized and small FWD sedan/coupe. IMHO, Honda is doing it right, there's no point being in a segment in any big way unless you can hold #1 or #2 position . . . a page perhaps borrowed from Jack Welch's playbook. It's far better than VW's strategy of being everywhere but good at nothing.
  • james27james27 Member Posts: 433
    Because I don't fit...is that a good enough reason? I fit in the M-series, and bought one. If the car makers wanted to broaden their market, some people that drive trucks buy them for the room, they'd consider selling their their cars without the sunroof and give people that extra 3" or so of headroom. The last AUdi I had, you could order at least some of the nice to have items without one, but no longer, and that is true for most companies.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, I'm 6'2" 200 lbs. I fit just fine in my 545.
  • mbbrooksmbbrooks Member Posts: 16
    Trolling nes't pas? Okay, I'll bite.

    Reasons why I got a MB E350 instead of a BMW 530i:

    Caveat: I would have leased a 530i if the damn dealer had not been such an [non-permissible content removed]. I like 5's but the ridiculous offer made me by the dealer gave me time to look around at lots of other cars. I never would have thought of the Benz but thank god the Beemer dealer was an [non-permissible content removed]. I digress:

    1. There is no iDrive and everything can be directly controlled without menus. - And I'm a computer guy.

    2. In my opinion the materials used in the MB are of higher quality.

    3. The E with its seven speed tranny feels faster to me and is actually slightly faster.

    4. The E sport suspension is not as harsh as the 5 sport suspension and you don't have run flat tires.

    5. The E series has been given a face lift for 2007 and in my opinion looks better than the 5.

    6. The 5 series will be replaced in the next year while the revised E will be with us for almost two years.

    7. The E series sport package which is a no additional cost package. It brings brings great looking ten spoke 18" wheels with 245 and 285 tires, a sport suspension that sits lower, ventilated and drilled discs, finished brake calipers, blue tinted glass, body side ground effects, perforated leather sport seats, "black" wood trim, and some external trim changes. It really transforms the car - I'm not sure if I hadn't seen it that I would have gotten the Benz.

    8. There are a lot more 5's around here thanks to the 525 which is a great deal but which makes 5's common.

    9. If you get the premium packages with the MB you get everything you could possible want including upgraded stereo, nav, satellite radio, electric sunshade and my favorite, keyless entry which is alone a $1000 option on a BMW. Any you don't have to pay $1,800 for the BMW "premium" package which doesn't bring anything to the table the base E350 does not have. The only options available outside the packages are the panoramic roof, parktronic and distronic cruise control. Did I mention that the six disc CD changer was standard. I have as available audio Sat radio (which has been a very pleasant surprise), regular radio, CD, CD changer and my iPod (extra cost of course) available.

    10. You get a full set of side airbags that you should have in the BMW but you cannot get without having to order the car.

    11. With everything, the list on the MB was less than the 5 even though it was much better equipped.

    12. The intangible - There is a serenity and comfort driving the Benz. I felt more frantic driving the 5. I can actually stay in one lane most of the time. I have other vehicles should I feel the need to be more frantic.

    13. Insurance through State Farm Mutual is less.
    expensive - I'm told because MB has a better safety record.

    Downsides: BMW has the full maintenance program. MB has gone to a fixed price menu of services, and gives you the first service for free, but you can't beat the BMW plan that even includes brake pads.

    I can't talk to the car - it has zero voice commands. Actually it is an option. On the other hand it has a dial pad readily available along with all other controls. While both cars can talk to a Treo through bluetooth, neither will recognize your address book.

    The BMW sport seats are some of my all time favorite seats.

    BMW's seem to have a better reputation for reliability and this seems to be the main wild card.

    Aren't you glad you asked? IMHO either is far away and above the Japanese competition and this is from a guy coming from a Japanese car.

    Keep the rubber side down.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I have the comfort seats in my 545, which IMO are better than the sport seats-more adjustments and wonderful side-bolstering. As good as it gets.

    The E Class is very fine too, and you will get no argument from me that the European LPS vehicles are superior to their Japanese counterparts, although the Infiniti M is a fine effort in the LPS class.

    You think the 530i is "frantic." Imagine yourself in a 545.
    When you floor it, it has got to have the most intoxicating sound outside of a Porsche.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    530i is probably more "frantic" than 545i due to much lower torque and the need to rev. The field of V6's are moving to 3.5 liter (or turbo in the case of BMW) for that very reason.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I have read and heard is that Honda/Acura is a small but very profitable company. I hope they can get some platform/driving dynamic things worked out. I really doubt it's a budget problem. I think it's more of an entrenched mentality that says if it ain't broke [financially speaking] then don't fix it.

    To me, small but profitable sounds like Porsche. Honda has more than enough resources to make a V8, a dedicated RL\TL platform, etc. It sounds like this will start happening in the next decade or so which should help Acura become a more than a 3rd tier player.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    This post, single-handedly, ought to make almost any LPS shopper who has not yet made a decision on one of these fine cars we go on about, at least consider an MB.

    Very well put!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    From the takes all kinds notebook:

    To a man and woman (in the BMW sales department) at our local BMW dealership, there is a disdain for the "uncomfort" seats.

    The salesrep gives me the keys to a 530xi and says "this was a special order, and the guy changed his mind -- the only reason we still have it is those damned comfort seats. No one can get them to fit -- despite umpteen different positions the thing can be moved into."

    Now, when I drove the car, I guess I was swayed, becuase I thought the seat cushion was "off" under my thighs.

    Takes all kinds.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    That's strange. Many people, myself included, find the comfort seats to be among the most comfortable around.

    But, because of the incredibly large amount of interacting setting possibilities, one has to have the patience and the time to find the combination of settings that is just right.
    Believe me, there is a correct combination for everybody.
    One can't expect to find this combination in the dealer's showroom.

    I particularly like the thigh extender and the great side bolstering which is as fine as that included with the best sport seats.

    I spent an hour or so with the driver's seat. But, once you find the right combo, you input it into the seat memory button and the key and that's that.

    Sort of the same with the iDrive-you spend some time inputting your personal settings and then forget about it.
    The only fly in the ointment is if I have to take the car in for servicing and they turn the car "off."
    I imagine I would have to start the process all over again from scratch.

    That is why before I go to bed, I not only say a prayer for my family and friends, but also, that my BMW will never need anything more than a simple oil change and no "diagnostician." ;)
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Toyota May Delay New Models To Address Rising Quality Issues

    NEW YORK (The Wall Street Journal)--Toyota Motor Corp., jarred by a surge of recalls and quality problems, is considering tapping the brakes on its ambitious growth plans, delaying introductions of some new models by as much as half a year, people familiar with the matter say.

    Toyota has been accelerating its growth world-wide and moving to overtake General Motors Corp. as the world's No. 1 auto maker. In May, the company said capital expenditures in the current fiscal year would reach a record of roughly $14 billion. But the fast-paced expansion has come with a cost: an increasing number of quality problems in North America, Japan and elsewhere that threaten to dent its quality image.

    It will be interesting to see if these quality issues impact current Lexus offerings, given the more complex nature of the LPS models.

    Another interesting development relates to JD Power's recent release of vehicle dependability ratings after 3 years' ownership. Ironically, many of the top rated vehicles are either no longer sold (Echo, MR2, Celica, Century, Sable, Park Avenue, DeVille, T-Bird) or are under quality scrutiny at present (Tundra, undergoing its 2nd recall in 2 yrs).

    Goes to show that ratings like Power and CR have its shortcomings also.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    It's not JD Power's fault that vehicle quality tends to improve late in the production cycle. There was an old joke about GM being in the business of discontinuing products just when they finally have fixed all the problems :-)
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    about small,profitable with regards to Honda/Acura, However, when you compare them to their direct competition, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota/Lexus, Audi/Volkswagen they are smaller. Porsche doesn't fit in to the conversation.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    However, when you compare them to their direct competition, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota/Lexus, Audi/Volkswagen

    They are smaller than TMC and VWAG, but not Nissan. Honda\Acura outsells Nissan\Infiniti. They are smaller than Nissan\RenaultAG, however.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It appears Lexus is going to make the GS430 pointless next to the GS350 and GS450h as they have announced that the 07' GS V8 model is still the GS430. The GS460 must be an early 2008 release early next year?

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/08/25/lexus-announces-2007-pricing-package-chan- - ges/

    M
  • felke001felke001 Member Posts: 33
    Shopping the usual suspects, (530i, M35, A6, GS) current driving an A4 but need something bigger.

    Despite coming from Audi (which has been trouble free), i found the Lexus GS much more appealing that seems generally true from most LPS posters on this board. Great Lexus interior, lack of dreaded i-drive/MMI type interface, ML stereo sounded amazing to me, likely to be more reliable (on average) than the A6 or 530.

    Downsides with GS300--seemed a bit underpowered and I see the lack of German "connectedness" that many have commented on. Surprisingly, the latter didn't seem to bother me at all on test drive but not sure how I will feel about it long term. The new GS350 will be getting a significant HP boost (300HP) that will obviously improve the power issue, although still likely to be less sporty experience overall than the other options.

    Wanted to like the M but something about it didn't appeal to me, couldn't really put my finger on it. BMW drives great but I-drive and overall ho-hum interior a turn off.

    Driving the GS350 as soon as local dealer gets one in--driving the A6 again as well, out of love for Audi. Reading this forum has been a great help.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Around here the A6 is again the bargain of the bunch, second only to the STS in terms of lease payments as a percentage of MSRP (not too much of a stunning revelation, I would imagine.)

    Yet, both the A6 and the 530 seem, at this point, to be in need of yet another HP/torque boost. Time marches on.

    I would think a 7 speed transmission would not be a bad idea either, but I suspect Audi, at least will do the following in the not too distant future:

    o Offer the DSG, rear biased quattro, of course and 7 speeds

    o Increase the HP of the "base" (for the US) engine -- from the current 255 to perhaps 280

    o Rethink the "advantages" of turbo charging especially considering BMW's 335 coupe engine -- which will almost certainly make it to the 5 series.

    The Germans need to engage in the power wars in the cars that most LPS customers buy (not the V8's, i.e.)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It sounds like the GS350 is going to drive about the same as the 300. Now you'll be able to basically have the power of a GS430 but without being stuck with the electric steering and brakes, not a bad deal.

    The GS350 will get better mpg than the M35, and will be quieter on the highway. If you really like GS but want to improve the handling, its possible that some TRD upgrades may be available that won't void your warranty.
  • lansdownemikelansdownemike Member Posts: 54
    One of the significant knocks on the GS300/430 was the relatively small trunk space. If you wanted something bigger, you might not get it in the backside. OTOH I bring my vacation suitcases with me for my second visit and see whether, in practice the cu. ft. measurements are real. (If I can fit my 2 medium sized suitcases along with the regular junk, it's big enough.) Usually they are, sometimes not. If you check that out, please report back!
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I also thought the back seat of the GS was even tighter than that of the RL. If you don't need to regularly transport more than 2 passengers, the GS may do the trick. It's been about a year since I drove and sat in one, but the rear headroom seemed very tight, also. But I am 6'4" with a 36 inseam so often the back seats feel confining.
  • mbbrooksmbbrooks Member Posts: 16
    Gee thanks. I should point out that I do own a BMW - a R1100RSL and a '96 Porsche 993 so I know frantic from several angles. The longer I have the Benz the more pleased I am with it.
  • avinebergavineberg Member Posts: 6
    I've been driving an Infinity M35X for about a year now. Everything about the car is great except the way it drives. The engine is loud, the shifts are rapid and pronounced, and the gas mileage is down right horrible. With that said, it still drives better than all the cars in it's class (bmw 530i, E350, A6). Fortunately, Infiniti Leasing offers an early termination. Infinity Leasing is the best leasing company I've ever interfaced with. They are as helpful a company I've ever worked with. I wished I liked driving the M35x as much as I liked infinity leasing.

    To get a drive that I can honesty say "I love", I moved up in class and tested the A6 4.2, E550, M45, and BMW 550i. In this class, the BMW 550i is the winner for me. I'd rank them 550i, E550, M45, and then A6.

    I picked up my new 2007 Titanium Silver 550i last night. Within the first 10 minutes I had a grin from ear to ear. I LOVE THIS CAR! It is silky smooth with tons of power. The sound system (Logic 7) rivals the Bose system in the M35x - which I thought was the best I've ever heard. iDrive is a little funky to get used to, but I think I've got it figured out. I like the location of the controller (think of it as a mouse).

    I've also read the discussions about the 550i comfort seats. I think the are terrific. It's one of the features that sold me on the car.
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